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Post by mcw on Aug 24, 2019 21:30:05 GMT
On ability are we a relegation team? We're certainly not a top 10 team but I certainly don't think we're a bottom 3 team either. For the people STILL backing Jones - On confidence and motivation we are probably 24th and confidence and motivation come from the management down. Unless something drastically changes i.e. the management, we'll go down. It's a matter of when not if he goes and like Hughes the longer they leave it the more damage will be done. The worst thing about the whole debacle for me has been the talk of promotion pre season when the powers that be knew damn well it was never even a realistic proposition. As I've said in another thread you dont make the signings we've made if promotion is the aim. They're cost saving signings which there is nothing wrong with if you're honest and say that. But to talk about promotion in order to sell season tickets and know damn well it's not the real aim is wrong. This is a relegation team. I’ve seen it too often supporting this club in 40 years since I was a small kid. Everything points to 1985, 1989 and 1997 all over again. I really like Nathan Jones as a person. He baffles me with his decisions though. There’s simply no fight in this group of players. They don’t seem interested and morale beaten. An experienced head is needed now to maximise the chances of stopping this slide but it looks too late for this group. Hate to say it, but as things stand I think you are right.
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Post by citynickscfc on Aug 24, 2019 21:31:41 GMT
We did so much better against Valencia than we did against Preston, Leeds, should I say 23 out of 26 of the games managed by Jones. I'm not saying we didn't. We may have done even better had we taken a full squad. At the time I was annoyed, in hindsight he was right. Survival over everything. People said they looked forward to the championship as we "might actually win more games".... Look how that's turned out. The last 3 years have been the worst in say 15 years.
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Post by adi on Aug 24, 2019 21:32:12 GMT
Valencia wasn't disrespectful we had a potential 6 pointer on the Saturday against Swansea (which we won). Some ppl might say it was good management when premiership survival was always the primary aim. And yes I went to Valencia. It was disappointing it wasn't disrespectful. What was disrespectful beyond redemption were the antics on the touchline on his return with WBA after a standing ovation . True. That is the level of him. Really damaged his reputation then and did so since. I’ll always be grateful because he was the best manager I’ve seen in charge but he showed little if any class since
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 21:32:16 GMT
The Pulis fan club would have you believe giving him the job would mean automatic survival.It wouldn't. And if we did still get relegated they would argue it wasn't his fault because it was a team he inherited rather than built. They really aren't worth arguing with,best to ignore them and let them have a mutual wank in private
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Post by citynickscfc on Aug 24, 2019 21:43:20 GMT
The Pulis fan club would have you believe giving him the job would mean automatic survival.It wouldn't. And if we did still get relegated they would argue it wasn't his fault because it was a team he inherited rather than built. They really aren't worth arguing with,best to ignore them and let them have a mutual wank in private He's miles better than Jones, we actually looked like we had tactics back then and I was proud to be a Stoke fan. I've been embarrassed for neigh on 2 years and it's absolutely shit.
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Post by robwahlmann on Aug 24, 2019 22:23:55 GMT
To avoid relegation is really starting to be what we need to concentrate on for the rest of the season. Are there 3 worse teams in our league?
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Post by portugalpotter on Aug 24, 2019 22:27:30 GMT
Wake up all. Jones has three games. Look at this disjointed mess. Get in anyone to save relegation. I look back at the fuckwits who said relegation to the Championship won’t be that bad. No, you’re right. It’s much worse. Get rid of this idiot. Get in Chris Hughton or even Pulis.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 24, 2019 22:30:16 GMT
Jones takes us down.
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Post by peterthornesboots on Aug 24, 2019 22:34:00 GMT
I do sometimes wonder if the supporters of other football clubs have the same all-consuming obsession with former managers that our fanbase has with Pulis(?).
I find it so bizzare that we always have to look backwards. There are thousands of professional football managers across the globe, so why does it always have to come back to Pulis? Can't we just all move on?
I fully respect what he achieved here but there is little doubt that the modern game has now moved on - his pragmatic philosophy is toxic and, judging by his performance at his previous two clubs, not as effective as it once was.
I am struggling to see how Jones will be able to survive beyond the the next international break. But appointing Pulis would just be another further step backwards - it would be little more than a short-term fix and would do little to resolve this club's deep-rooted issues.
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Post by robwahlmann on Aug 24, 2019 22:39:28 GMT
He has had close to 30 games now and how many have we won? When Rowett starts to resemble a mastermind I think it's time to wake up! This isn't good enough and as I've said earlier tonight I think the players have lost their belief in him as well. He can't be given more than a couple of games now before turning it around, if not we have to start looking for the right man to keep us up. In fact I hope we already have someone in our sight as a possible replacement.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 24, 2019 22:43:53 GMT
3 years ago, when we were mid-table in the Premier League you saw us getting relegated twice in three seasons, all the way to League One? The writing was on the wall. What confirmed it was Arnie leaving. No other player left the club like he did since our promotion. We have a proven track record for not having any idea what to do in these situation. We are wank. So, at the risk of repeating myself, you predicted from that position we would get relegated TWO divisions in 3 seasons? What utter, utter bollocks.
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Post by spitthedog on Aug 24, 2019 22:46:57 GMT
He has had close to 30 games now and how many have we won? When Rowett starts to resemble a mastermind I think it's time to wake up! This isn't good enough and as I've said earlier tonight I think the players have lost their belief in him as well. He can't be given more than a couple of games now before turning it around, if not we have to start looking for the right man to keep us up. In fact I hope we already have someone in our sight as a possible replacement. I think when you've been watching football and Stoke for 50 years you can smell relegation, and this is quite a potent stench. The players he has brought in League One standard the coaching is League One/Two standard. The body language of the players reeks of relegation. All this talk of diamond we have been playing long ball all this season to players who cant hold the ball with no midfielders supporting them.
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Post by cheshirepotter on Aug 24, 2019 22:50:28 GMT
Relegation is a certainty unless we send for Red Adair or Tony Pulis to sort it out. Oh well, relegation it'll have to be. A chance to rebuild rather than that capped cretin spreading discord throughout the support like a cancer. That ‘capped cretin’ was the reason we climbed into the Premier League in the first place
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Post by cheshirepotter on Aug 24, 2019 22:50:54 GMT
Relegation is a certainty unless we send for Red Adair or Tony Pulis to sort it out. Oh well, relegation it'll have to be. A chance to rebuild rather than that capped cretin spreading discord throughout the support like a cancer. That ‘capped cretin’ was the reason we climbed into the Premier League in the first place
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 22:54:29 GMT
I do sometimes wonder if the supporters of other football clubs have the same all-consuming obsession with former managers that our fanbase has with Pulis(?). I find it so bizzare that we always have to look backwards. There are thousands of professional football managers across the globe, so why does it always have to come back to Pulis? Can't we just all move on? I fully respect what he achieved here but there is little doubt that the modern game has now moved on - his pragmatic philosophy is toxic and, judging by his performance at his previous two clubs, not as effective as it once was. I am struggling to see how Jones will be able to survive beyond the the next international break. But appointing Pulis would just be another further step backwards - it would be little more than a short-term fix and would do little to resolve this club's deep-rooted issues. Who do you think would be better then? Because where I’m sitting: 1. He’ll sort our defence 2. He’ll organise us 3. He won’t stand for any wankers 4. He won’t let any muppets tell him who to buy 5. We’d have a bit of fight in us 6. He would stop the rot 7. We would have firm foundations from which to build I can’t see anyone who could do those things better and those are the things we need. It’s all nice thinking we’re in the same position as we were in 2012 and we need to push on but we don’t we need to rebuild from the foundations up. We need our spine back. It’s not clamouring for the past it’s assessing the job that needs doing and he looks pretty qualified for the job.
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Post by generationex on Aug 24, 2019 22:59:45 GMT
I expect any club facing relegation would look at Pulis as a possible manager.
Plus a background as one of the most successful managers in a clubs history would also be a bonus surely?
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 24, 2019 23:03:47 GMT
Valencia away was disrespectful, as was the Binary Season which was done by design. Anyone wanting to put themselves through that again, from what is essentially supposed to be a hobby, a release from the grind of work, bills and assembling flatpacks, needs a psychiatrist. Valencia wasn't disrespectful we had a potential 6 pointer on the Saturday against Swansea (which we won). Some ppl might say it was good management when premiership survival was always the primary aim. And yes I went to Valencia. It was disappointing it wasn't disrespectful. After urging the fans to save their money and get out there in numbers? Disrespectful doesn’t even cover it, it was contemptuous.
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Post by generationex on Aug 24, 2019 23:07:53 GMT
I would have thought saving your money for the only European adventure in 40 years was good advice.
Valencia was the best away day of my life.
I doubt I will be here the next time it happens... so.. cheers Tone.
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Post by robwahlmann on Aug 24, 2019 23:09:03 GMT
He has had close to 30 games now and how many have we won? When Rowett starts to resemble a mastermind I think it's time to wake up! This isn't good enough and as I've said earlier tonight I think the players have lost their belief in him as well. He can't be given more than a couple of games now before turning it around, if not we have to start looking for the right man to keep us up. In fact I hope we already have someone in our sight as a possible replacement. I think when you've been watching football and Stoke for 50 years you can smell relegation, and this is quite a potent stench. The players he has brought in League One standard the coaching is League One/Two standard. The body language of the players reeks of relegation. All this talk of diamond we have been playing long ball all this season to players who cant hold the ball with no midfielders supporting them. I certainly don't have a good feeling about what's going on any longer.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Aug 24, 2019 23:13:32 GMT
Interesting tha NJ said "If at any point I feel I can’t change it and I’m flogging a dead horse, I won’t do that".
The players aren't with him. At his wits end? Walk away?
We definitely need to be sounding out someone (as insurance).
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Post by sergeifaye on Aug 24, 2019 23:19:00 GMT
Valencia wasn't disrespectful we had a potential 6 pointer on the Saturday against Swansea (which we won). Some ppl might say it was good management when premiership survival was always the primary aim. And yes I went to Valencia. It was disappointing it wasn't disrespectful. After urging the fans to save their money and get out there in numbers? Disrespectful doesn’t even cover it, it was contemptuous. Big clubs rotate all the time balancing cup competitions. At the time the accusation levelled at TP and the club was we weren't being ambitious enough. Don't you think it's ironic the one time he managed the team like we were a big club he got this criticism?
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Post by peterthornesboots on Aug 24, 2019 23:21:16 GMT
I do sometimes wonder if the supporters of other football clubs have the same all-consuming obsession with former managers that our fanbase has with Pulis(?). I find it so bizzare that we always have to look backwards. There are thousands of professional football managers across the globe, so why does it always have to come back to Pulis? Can't we just all move on? I fully respect what he achieved here but there is little doubt that the modern game has now moved on - his pragmatic philosophy is toxic and, judging by his performance at his previous two clubs, not as effective as it once was. I am struggling to see how Jones will be able to survive beyond the the next international break. But appointing Pulis would just be another further step backwards - it would be little more than a short-term fix and would do little to resolve this club's deep-rooted issues. Who do you think would be better then? Because where I’m sitting: 1. He’ll sort our defence 2. He’ll organise us 3. He won’t stand for any wankers 4. He won’t let any muppets tell him who to buy 5. We’d have a bit of fight in us 6. He would stop the rot 7. We would have firm foundations from which to build I can’t see anyone who could do those things better and those are the things we need. It’s all nice thinking we’re in the same position as we were in 2012 and we need to push on but we don’t we need to rebuild from the foundations up. We need our spine back. It’s not clamouring for the past it’s assessing the job that needs doing and he looks pretty qualified for the job. But, are we literally saying that Pulis is the only manager in the world who can make a team solid and competitive? Because those seven points are surely just the basics of management really (which Jones isn't hitting by the way). I understand why some supporters would want him to return - better the devil you know and all that - and I respect that opinion. But for me, he isn't the answer. It would be like putting a poisoned plaster on a bullet wound. I think a lot of the names mentioned on other threads are much more appealing than Pulis. Chris Hughton is very well thought of in the football world and has a track record of building teams capable of getting promotion. Gary Monk did a fantastic job at Birmingham last season with limited resources and a dodgy chairman. Paul Cook, Aitor Karanka, Lee Johnson - all have good reputations and positive current track records. And this is without even looking at the old guard (Moyes etc.), the lower leagues (Cowley etc.) or abroad (look at what Norwich have done with Daniel Farke). There's a world beyond constantly looking back at Pulis.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Aug 24, 2019 23:21:19 GMT
I think we're down already. I saw it coming 3 years ago as did many others. It will take a lot of character to turn this shit around! Despond Alert! how many Lottery winners have you had.
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Post by sergeifaye on Aug 24, 2019 23:21:19 GMT
On ability are we a relegation team? We're certainly not a top 10 team but I certainly don't think we're a bottom 3 team either. For the people STILL backing Jones - On confidence and motivation we are probably 24th and confidence and motivation come from the management down. Unless something drastically changes i.e. the management, we'll go down. It's a matter of when not if he goes and like Hughes the longer they leave it the more damage will be done. The worst thing about the whole debacle for me has been the talk of promotion pre season when the powers that be knew damn well it was never even a realistic proposition. As I've said in another thread you dont make the signings we've made if promotion is the aim. They're cost saving signings which there is nothing wrong with if you're honest and say that. But to talk about promotion in order to sell season tickets and know damn well it's not the real aim is wrong. This is a relegation team. I’ve seen it too often supporting this club in 40 years since I was a small kid. Everything points to 1985, 1989 and 1997 all over again. I really like Nathan Jones as a person. He baffles me with his decisions though. There’s simply no fight in this group of players. They don’t seem interested and morale beaten. An experienced head is needed now to maximise the chances of stopping this slide but it looks too late for this group. I've said it before I'll say it again. You've hit the nail on the head saying Nathan Jones is 'likeable'. The best managers aren't likeable in my experience.
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Post by sergeifaye on Aug 24, 2019 23:28:17 GMT
I do sometimes wonder if the supporters of other football clubs have the same all-consuming obsession with former managers that our fanbase has with Pulis(?). I find it so bizzare that we always have to look backwards. There are thousands of professional football managers across the globe, so why does it always have to come back to Pulis? Can't we just all move on? I fully respect what he achieved here but there is little doubt that the modern game has now moved on - his pragmatic philosophy is toxic and, judging by his performance at his previous two clubs, not as effective as it once was. I am struggling to see how Jones will be able to survive beyond the the next international break. But appointing Pulis would just be another further step backwards - it would be little more than a short-term fix and would do little to resolve this club's deep-rooted issues. He's the best we'll get it's that simple. We've tried moving on with 4 separate managers now and they've all failed (Hughes 3 9th place finishes can easily be put down to having the spine of a Pulis team). You want to get another bright young thing in like Jones? Any why is his approach 'toxic'? Besides Waddington his is the only real approach we've ever had sucess with.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 23:31:20 GMT
Who do you think would be better then? Because where I’m sitting: 1. He’ll sort our defence 2. He’ll organise us 3. He won’t stand for any wankers 4. He won’t let any muppets tell him who to buy 5. We’d have a bit of fight in us 6. He would stop the rot 7. We would have firm foundations from which to build I can’t see anyone who could do those things better and those are the things we need. It’s all nice thinking we’re in the same position as we were in 2012 and we need to push on but we don’t we need to rebuild from the foundations up. We need our spine back. It’s not clamouring for the past it’s assessing the job that needs doing and he looks pretty qualified for the job. But, are we literally saying that Pulis is the only manager in the world who can make a team solid and competitive? Because those seven points are surely just the basics of management really (which Jones isn't hitting by the way). I understand why some supporters would want him to return - better the devil you know and all that - and I respect that opinion. But for me, he isn't the answer. It would be like putting a poisoned plaster on a bullet wound. I think a lot of the names mentioned on other threads are much more appealing than Pulis. Chris Hughton is very well thought of in the football world and has a track record of building teams capable of getting promotion. Gary Monk did a fantastic job at Birmingham last season with limited resources and a dodgy chairman. Paul Cook, Aitor Karanka, Lee Johnson - all have good reputations and positive current track records. And this is without even looking at the old guard (Moyes etc.), the lower leagues (Cowley etc.) or abroad (look at what Norwich have done with Daniel Farke). There's a world beyond constantly looking back at Pulis. Fair enough. I am aware there is a world outside Tony Pulis but for me there are two people who I would 100 per cent sort this level of shit - Tony Pulis and Big Sam. Unpopular I know but I would rather not take any risk with are next appointment. It’s all personal but it’s not just clamouring for the past. It’s hard to discuss it on here though because you just get shouted down for mentioning his name and told your living in the past. But he does have the right qualities for the task is to hand. As you said there may be others.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 23:36:47 GMT
The last two games would indicate that relegation is possible. He has used 16 of his 20 'outfield' players in those two games (and two keepers) and we are lost at sea.
For all this talk of being excellent between in two boxes but poor in them, well we have been very poor across the park. There's no movement, no belief and no energy in this team.
We talked about how we were in the same position as Fulham after 15/16 games last season and could kick on. Anyone in their right mind would compare us to Ipswich rather the Norwich from last season at this point in time.
We will need 'exceptional characters' and 'exceptional athletes' to move the club forward long term and get us out of this position in the short term. Have we got those?
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Post by peterthornesboots on Aug 24, 2019 23:39:09 GMT
But, are we literally saying that Pulis is the only manager in the world who can make a team solid and competitive? Because those seven points are surely just the basics of management really (which Jones isn't hitting by the way). I understand why some supporters would want him to return - better the devil you know and all that - and I respect that opinion. But for me, he isn't the answer. It would be like putting a poisoned plaster on a bullet wound. I think a lot of the names mentioned on other threads are much more appealing than Pulis. Chris Hughton is very well thought of in the football world and has a track record of building teams capable of getting promotion. Gary Monk did a fantastic job at Birmingham last season with limited resources and a dodgy chairman. Paul Cook, Aitor Karanka, Lee Johnson - all have good reputations and positive current track records. And this is without even looking at the old guard (Moyes etc.), the lower leagues (Cowley etc.) or abroad (look at what Norwich have done with Daniel Farke). There's a world beyond constantly looking back at Pulis. Fair enough. I am aware there is a world outside Tony Pulis but for me there are two people who I would 100 per cent sort this level of shit - Tony Pulis and Big Sam. Unpopular I know but I would rather not take any risk with are next appointment. It’s all personal but it’s not just clamouring for the past. It’s hard to discuss it on here though because you just get shouted down for mentioning his name and told your living in the past. But he does have the right qualities for the task is to hand. As you said there may be others. Hopefully you don't think I've shouted you down (apologies if I've come across that way!). Football is all about opinions and, like I said, whilst I understand and respect why some people like the idea of Pulis coming back, it just isn't for me. I guess at the end of the day we, the fans, don't get a say anyway. The more pressing question is whether those in charge are capable of making the right decision (which is a different matter entirely). Whoever is manager I will always try and support - we all want the best for this club at the end of the day.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 23:42:32 GMT
Fair enough. I am aware there is a world outside Tony Pulis but for me there are two people who I would 100 per cent sort this level of shit - Tony Pulis and Big Sam. Unpopular I know but I would rather not take any risk with are next appointment. It’s all personal but it’s not just clamouring for the past. It’s hard to discuss it on here though because you just get shouted down for mentioning his name and told your living in the past. But he does have the right qualities for the task is to hand. As you said there may be others. Hopefully you don't think I've shouted you down (apologies if I've come across that way!). Football is all about opinions and, like I said, whilst I understand and respect why some people like the idea of Pulis coming back, it just isn't for me. I guess at the end of the day we, the fans, don't get a say anyway. The more pressing question is whether those in charge are capable of making the right decision (which is a different matter entirely). Whoever is manager I will always try and support - we all want the best for this club at the end of the day. Not at all! It is nice to have a reasonable discussion with someone on the point to be honest without being told to fuck off! Indeed, whether they will get it right next time is anyone’s guess. I don’t have much faith but it has to be right this time. I’m just hoping Peter puts his foot down. Johns choices all seem a bit pie in the sky!
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Post by marrer on Aug 24, 2019 23:47:02 GMT
He has had close to 30 games now and how many have we won? When Rowett starts to resemble a mastermind I think it's time to wake up! This isn't good enough and as I've said earlier tonight I think the players have lost their belief in him as well. He can't be given more than a couple of games now before turning it around, if not we have to start looking for the right man to keep us up. In fact I hope we already have someone in our sight as a possible replacement. The yardstick for me Rob would be 6 more points minimum by the Forest game (4more games) otherwise I'd worry that our position, coupled with the players psyche places us in real danger. I think relationships with other candidates do need be groomed behind the scenes so at least they're is pre planning. I never thought I'd say this because I have thought that NJ is a breath of fresh air and I have believed he would succeed but something is wrong.
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