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Post by crapslinger on Aug 22, 2019 13:24:27 GMT
How much lower does he have to take us before you believe the time is right to ditch him ? his record since January is appalling by anybody's standards. Its a case of I don’t see where we turn from here tbh, he has been backed and to change him after the backing he has received would be wrong, the board have to stand by there man. Whether thats right or wrong. Yes he has been backed and he's bought some shit players here already including a £4m right back we didn't need and Vokes for £9m, he's taking us one way and it isn't upwards, the facts speak for themselves they don't lie or promise great things or the ability to turn water into wine.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 22, 2019 13:24:39 GMT
Forget tactics and team selection for a second, he's clearly failing at getting into their heads and giving them even the smallest semblance of confidence. Good managers can do that. Not with the results we're getting.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 22, 2019 13:27:02 GMT
Was listening to talksport last night and the presenter described jones’ Luton side as a “winning machine” ... it’s bizarre how a manager can do so well at one club and then fail so badly at another, was he just lucky at Luton ? He’s a very enthusiastic manager, talks well and is probably a good motivator and maybe that’s good enough in the lower leagues but not in the higher leagues ? You need more tactical nouse in the top two divisions, tactical nouse he might not possess? A brain that engages before the mouth opens would be helpful, all his claims thus far have turned out to be false.
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Post by spoton on Aug 22, 2019 13:27:23 GMT
He’s bought 11 players. 11! None of whom are any better than what we had. And then he’s playing them in a system they aren’t suited to. Not all systems suit all players! The new players have had 4 games... Wake up FFS. Rubbish what about the pre season, most of the Jones supporters said he needs to bring in his own players who can play the diamond none that I've looked at have ever played in a diamond, the style of play he his trying is far to open
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 22, 2019 13:27:43 GMT
How much lower does he have to take us before you believe the time is right to ditch him ? his record since January is appalling by anybody's standards. These next 48 hours are probably going to be the most important of his career to date, now he has to make some really big calls. He really needs to drop Butland, Batth and Allen and seriously consider ditching the diamond too. Whether he's got the stones to make such big calls now, could easily define the rest of his career. A tonking on Saturday, when he has stuck with same formation and the same failing senior players, will make his position virtually untenable, you would think. Even if we lose on Saturday it all depends on how and who he picks, if he changes things and its close with some improvement then fine he's seen the problems and tried to address them, if it's same old with Allen, Butland and Batth it's going to be very hard to argue for him.
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Post by ParaPsych on Aug 22, 2019 13:29:30 GMT
Forget tactics and team selection for a second, he's clearly failing at getting into their heads and giving them even the smallest semblance of confidence. Good managers can do that. Not with the results we're getting. I'm pretty sure some managers would manage to prevent the heads dropping as much as they appear to when things go wrong. Not trying to exonerate the players though, they obviously deserve much blame too.
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Post by numberounominion on Aug 22, 2019 13:41:27 GMT
Everybody on this board, and I mean everyone plus my cat, knew that Butland and Joe Allen, had to be dropped for the Preston game.
I am not saying they will be shite forever more.
But I am saying that everyone on this board knew that Butland and Allen had started the season abysmally. Leaving the manager no option, other than to drop them, or lose all credibility.
The bloke is afraid of his own shadow, if he can't make a call, as simple as that.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 22, 2019 13:42:26 GMT
You can blame NJ for picking the team and subs and when they are made etc however you can't blame NJ for so called players giving it away. He has a squad of more than decent players but if a couple of them throw games away that's not his fault. How can any manager take blame for the first two goals last night? Without those two goals last night it would have been a different game but it happened and the players have to pay the price. No manager can play a system when his players give it up, Butland ruined his game last night and with QPR and Charlton. He is then chasing the game and making subs to try and rectify it. How about the players not fucking it up to start with give the bloke a chance. He's coaching and there are signs of it coming good BUT let's not kid ourselves in all the games so far we stated well only for a calamity to undo it all. With the main culprit being our keeper, yes fault is elsewhere too but the main issue is Butland he has played himself OUT of the side with his sheer incompetence. NJ imho has things on the right track with effort and desire but in only 10 of his side. I don't care about feelings or whatever Jack deserves all the shit and more if it's good enough and acceptable to slate and ridicule outfield players it's good enough for our shite keeper. His form is the worst of ALL of the players to take to the field by a fucking country mile. I don't care about excuses but Jack has cost us points in 3 games not alone but the major factor in those defeats. The manager keeps selecting him nobody is forcing him to !, Butland, Allen and Batth have been piss poor this season yet they keep getting the nod, these are the managers selections his decisions they are playing because of him therefore he has to take the blame. The players blatantly can not play the system he is trying to employ again many are his players that he deemed good enough to play the system again his fault. I agree Jack would be number 3 in my team however the form of the other two is subjective and opinion, Jack's is beyond defending. That's my point they don't cost us games but yes sub them don't pick them fine. For NJ to not drop Butland is ridiculous he has too no option but it's not his fault they don't perform when picked. That lies squarely at the paid players feet. NJ does not coach Jack to throw games, he does not coach Allen to hit the post from 2 yards it's not NJ coaching Batth not to head the ball that's their job not NJ job and to criticise him for their mistakes is not right. Yes fucking subs up ala Woods and any number of any opinions no problem but not because the players fuck simple stuff up.
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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 22, 2019 13:42:49 GMT
Its a case of I don’t see where we turn from here tbh, he has been backed and to change him after the backing he has received would be wrong, the board have to stand by there man. Whether thats right or wrong. Yes he has been backed and he's bought some shit players here already including a £4m right back we didn't need and Vokes for £9m, he's taking us one way and it isn't upwards, the facts speak for themselves they don't lie or promise great things or the ability to turn water into wine. The facts, which can be statistically based actually telling us that we are massively under achieving with the performances that we have put in this season actually. I recommend a look at Stoke Analytics on twitter and that will support my point. What I won’t defend Jones for is the constant playing of Joe Allen.
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Post by Davef on Aug 22, 2019 13:48:04 GMT
The new players have had 4 games... Wake up FFS. Rubbish what about the pre season, most of the Jones supporters said he needs to bring in his own players who can play the diamond none that I've looked at have ever played in a diamond, the style of play he his trying is far to open The vast majority of the team last night were at the club when Jones took over. Only two new summer signings were on the pitch at full time, Gregory and Lindsay. Two were on the bench. The rest are either injured, have been dropped already or are picking their arses.
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Post by gingerninja on Aug 22, 2019 13:53:22 GMT
The simple fact is that we need to quickly ditch any ideas about going up this season. From what we have seen this season and from his time in charge last season, we simply with these players aren't good enough. We still don't and won't score enough goals. I would love him to succeed and I think he's a likeable and honest man, however, the issue I have with his rhetoric is that he promised us a pressing team with athletes, that 11 last night looked as slow and unathletic as any team we have put out in 24 months. He had the window to implement these changes and work on his diamond, as yet it is failing and from the players available I can't see any way he will take us where we all want to go.
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Post by Goonie on Aug 22, 2019 14:01:16 GMT
Every time I read your username I see it as Christ! He Potter? 😎 Well urs Mrs does say God a lot when I’m with her 🤷♂️😁 Very good 😁😎👍
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Post by Fred Merger on Aug 22, 2019 14:08:33 GMT
The simple fact is that we need to quickly ditch any ideas about going up this season. From what we have seen this season and from his time in charge last season, we simply with these players aren't good enough. We still don't and won't score enough goals. I would love him to succeed and I think he's a likeable and honest man, however, the issue I have with his rhetoric is that he promised us a pressing team with athletes, that 11 last night looked as slow and unathletic as any team we have put out in 24 months. He had the window to implement these changes and work on his diamond, as yet it is failing and from the players available I can't see any way he will take us where we all want to go. I've said pretty much the same myself, Jones comes across as a perfectly honest sort of guy and he obviously cares that things aren't going the way he wants. But at the end of the day all the talking positive and saying things that other people want to hear has to be backed up with winning football matches which he doesn't seem to be able to do. It's either a rapid turnaround in results or just a case of how many more games the board are prepared to let slip by before they act.
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Post by matelot1996 on Aug 22, 2019 14:30:07 GMT
I’m just watching the match again as a form of self punishment. The energy levels of Allen, Ince, Woods, Clucas were an embarrassment to SCFC and professional football. Lyndsey can’t play football, his distribution is woeful. Ince looked completely disinterested and simply does nothing to warrant continued inclusion in the side. Woods is a fucking menace with no positional discipline whatsoever. Bath is one of the least composed, commanding centre halves I have seen in a Stoke shirt.This situation does not need over analysing, we just have too many “over the hill” has-Beens (Butland Included) who are stealing a gilt edged living at Stokes expense. I feel sorry for Jones, limited budget, trying to manufacture a Wedgewood limited edition with only used tampons at his disposal. How long before we join in with opposing fans cheers of “You’re Fucking Shit?” That usually signals the beginning of the search for a new manager. I am not looking forward to Saturday at all.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 22, 2019 14:49:04 GMT
Was listening to talksport last night and the presenter described jones’ Luton side as a “winning machine” ... it’s bizarre how a manager can do so well at one club and then fail so badly at another, was he just lucky at Luton ? He’s a very enthusiastic manager, talks well and is probably a good motivator and maybe that’s good enough in the lower leagues but not in the higher leagues ? You need more tactical nouse in the top two divisions, tactical nouse he might not possess? When do we play Luton...
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Post by jontimmis on Aug 22, 2019 14:52:40 GMT
How many players has he bought in?
Mmmmmm.... we cant keep burying our head in the sand.
Last night his players that he bought in only 3/11 started....
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Post by StaffordPotter on Aug 22, 2019 14:56:45 GMT
Listen,can we just get behind the bloke... If pro footballers cant adapt to a system or shape then thats on THEM. 4 Managers now these shithouse players have got the sack and still its not them its the gaffer!! We need to stick with and support jones... Fuck these charalatan chancers,make it known we are with the manager. They will have nowhwere to hide then,we cannot keep sacking managers because of toss players who dont want to be here!! Keep the faith,rant over. Clown.
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Post by serpico on Aug 22, 2019 14:58:50 GMT
Was listening to talksport last night and the presenter described jones’ Luton side as a “winning machine” ... it’s bizarre how a manager can do so well at one club and then fail so badly at another, was he just lucky at Luton ? He’s a very enthusiastic manager, talks well and is probably a good motivator and maybe that’s good enough in the lower leagues but not in the higher leagues ? You need more tactical nouse in the top two divisions, tactical nouse he might not possess? When do we play Luton... December 10th
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Post by jontimmis on Aug 22, 2019 14:59:03 GMT
Jones has had huge backing over two transfer windows. He has had well over six months to work with the squad. He brought in players he wants, allowed others to leave ( including our only LB who is now starting in a strong Premier League defence) and has made it clear that he will not work with several other highly paid, experienced players. The team is being asked to follow Jones' tactics. Jones has ample time and resources to research the strengths and weaknesses of the teams we are facing. We almost certainly have the biggest squad in our league and the biggest wage bill. Our results and performances have been shite. I honestly think my 11 year old niece could have achieved results to match those we have achieved since the New Year. We all want Jones to succeed; he seems to be a genuine guy, however to claim as the OP does that , "Is not Jones!" is stretching things. The results do not reflect the resources he has been given. It is the job of the manager to maximise his resources. He has not done that and for that he is solely to blame. Well said!
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Post by thehoof on Aug 22, 2019 15:00:24 GMT
Yes he has been backed and he's bought some shit players here already including a £4m right back we didn't need and Vokes for £9m, he's taking us one way and it isn't upwards, the facts speak for themselves they don't lie or promise great things or the ability to turn water into wine. The facts, which can be statistically based actually telling us that we are massively under achieving with the performances that we have put in this season actually. I recommend a look at Stoke Analytics on twitter and that will support my point. What I won’t defend Jones for is the constant playing of Joe Allen. Stats, the last time I looked, didn’t win anybody any points. What the stats actually say is 1) we couldn’t hit the Cow’s A*** with the proverbial banjo, and that if a team has 3 shots on goal they will score twice. You have to be a special kind of optimist to take any comfort in those stats- the only one that counts at the end of the day is points available 12, points taken 1.
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Post by jontimmis on Aug 22, 2019 15:08:21 GMT
It’s simple I said it when we appointed him. He doesn’t have the experience he hasn’t had lows in management it’s all been 50% win ratio at Luton smashing team. Promotion after promotion.
He hasn’t managed egos, big earners money earners who take more a week than he probably did in nearly a year at Luton. This is reality.
It’s not just about tactics, it’s gravitas, leadership, if you look at him you’re probably thinking why are your fingers covered in plasters, players taking the Michael on the golf course.
He’s a bit monotone and talks like all managers do about things that don’t reflect the reality.
“Working tirelessly”
“More cutting edge”
“God willing”
“Created lots of chances”
“Silly mistakes” by the way this is what Rowett said.... every week
Well then do something about it Nathan, fuck me!
We get picked off so easily, last year we would be 1 down and to get anything out the game we needed to score 2 to win it and then after Xmas lots of draws which probably kept us up!
Nathan Jones hasn’t got the experience to deal with this. I saw the comments I witnessed his face during and after the game:
“Rabbit in headlights” came to mind.
I know the mistakes were appalling last night, but qpr, charlton and Derby and HE still picks the team. A proper manager who’s not trying to be everyone’s mate is going to be on their case and has that pull. As most of our players are still earning 50 times what he earns in a year.
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Post by jontimmis on Aug 22, 2019 15:12:04 GMT
Listen,can we just get behind the bloke... If pro footballers cant adapt to a system or shape then thats on THEM. 4 Managers now these shithouse players have got the sack and still its not them its the gaffer!! We need to stick with and support jones... Fuck these charalatan chancers,make it known we are with the manager. They will have nowhwere to hide then,we cannot keep sacking managers because of toss players who dont want to be here!! Keep the faith,rant over. A manager's job in any field of life is to maximise the performance with resources available. Those resources are never infinite, or perfect. His resources - at the start of his reign - were a team that was winning more than it was losing, although having many flaws and problems. He gained extra resources: time (8 months), investment (c20m), support from Board and club (to get 11 new players). The performance he is now achieving is the worst in any of the 92 league clubs bar Southend. I'm not sure I understand the conclusion that its not Jones. Spot on!
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Post by skemstokie on Aug 22, 2019 15:15:45 GMT
Listen,can we just get behind the bloke... If pro footballers cant adapt to a system or shape then thats on THEM. 4 Managers now these shithouse players have got the sack and still its not them its the gaffer!! We need to stick with and support jones... Fuck these charalatan chancers,make it known we are with the manager. They will have nowhwere to hide then,we cannot keep sacking managers because of toss players who dont want to be here!! Keep the faith,rant over. I left after 15 minutes last night not because of what was happening on the pitch but because of the attitude of some of our "supporters" and the vile abusive comments certain players had shouted at them
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Post by nik80 on Aug 22, 2019 15:26:53 GMT
He’s bought 11 players. 11! None of whom are any better than what we had. And then he’s playing them in a system they aren’t suited to. Not all systems suit all players! The new players have had 4 games... Wake up FFS. Thing is mate, he’s bought players in, then seemingly realised what he had was better and thus doesn’t play them, at least, that’s what it looks like currently. Cousins, Vickers, Davies, Ward, Smith all not making the team. Truth be told I think they should be doing better but I want Jones to drop this idea the diamond is going to see us good. It won’t. That’s why no one else adopts the system. We’ll have another look Saturday.
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Post by Block 22 on Aug 22, 2019 15:28:55 GMT
Absolute lunacy, some of this drivel..
“The diamond is not working”. Right so, we’ve created amongst the most clear cut chances, conceded amongst the least clear cut chances. Had more shots than the majority.. is it only me that this tells the system is working?
Could be playing 1-1-8 formation, if you can’t score from 6 yards and your defenders and back 4 keep making school boy errors it doesn’t matter what formation you are playing.
You take note of our general play when it comes to the system, which other than last nights abortion has been very good (despite results). Scoring clear cut chances and defending properly has zero to do with the formation. Changing to a flat 4-4-2 won’t make your strikers convert easy chances and your defenders and keeper stop doing blunders.
Quite frankly, all this bollocks about the system is just fabricated, imaginary bullshit.
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Post by thehoof on Aug 22, 2019 15:40:36 GMT
Absolute lunacy, some of this drivel.. “The diamond is not working”. Right so, we’ve created amongst the most clear cut chances, conceded amongst the least clear cut chances. Had more shots than the majority.. is it only me that this tells the system is working? Could be playing 1-1-8 formation, if you can’t score from 6 yards and your defenders and back 4 keep making school boy errors it doesn’t matter what formation you are playing. You take note of our general play when it comes to the system, which other than last nights abortion has been very good (despite results). Scoring clear cut chances and defending properly has zero to do with the formation. Changing to a flat 4-4-2 won’t make your strikers convert easy chances and your defenders and keeper stop doing blunders. Quite frankly, all this bollocks about the system is just fabricated, imaginary bullshit. Our form against QPR was very poor, last night was worse- so in 50% of our games we have been gash. Against Charlton and Derby we were the better team but had less shots on target than Charlton and one more than Derby- if it isn’t the system then clearly the players that Jones has acquired are not good enough, because as you point out the system change will not make us any better. As such we will be looking at a very long and difficult season. I did think that Jones would get it right, but now I am not so sure.
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Post by Block 22 on Aug 22, 2019 15:57:12 GMT
Absolute lunacy, some of this drivel.. “The diamond is not working”. Right so, we’ve created amongst the most clear cut chances, conceded amongst the least clear cut chances. Had more shots than the majority.. is it only me that this tells the system is working? Could be playing 1-1-8 formation, if you can’t score from 6 yards and your defenders and back 4 keep making school boy errors it doesn’t matter what formation you are playing. You take note of our general play when it comes to the system, which other than last nights abortion has been very good (despite results). Scoring clear cut chances and defending properly has zero to do with the formation. Changing to a flat 4-4-2 won’t make your strikers convert easy chances and your defenders and keeper stop doing blunders. Quite frankly, all this bollocks about the system is just fabricated, imaginary bullshit. Our form against QPR was very poor, last night was worse- so in 50% of our games we have been gash. Against Charlton and Derby we were the better team but had less shots on target than Charlton and one more than Derby- if it isn’t the system then clearly the players that Jones has acquired are not good enough, because as you point out the system change will not make us any better. As such we will be looking at a very long and difficult season. I did think that Jones would get it right, but now I am not so sure. I don’t think we were terrible against QPR, we weren’t good but it wasn’t horrendous. You reinforce my point with your shot on target stats. The system has no baring on how accurate your shots are, if Joe Allen can’t score an open goal from 4 yards out it doesn’t matter where our 11 players are stood on the pitch. Funny that you are blaming Jones’ acquisitions, I’d say the two players that are most accountable for their circus acts are Joe Allen and Jack Butland, both are playing like clowns. Is Jones culpable for playing those players every week? Yes, absolutely. Is the formation at fault? No.
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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 22, 2019 15:57:45 GMT
The facts, which can be statistically based actually telling us that we are massively under achieving with the performances that we have put in this season actually. I recommend a look at Stoke Analytics on twitter and that will support my point. What I won’t defend Jones for is the constant playing of Joe Allen. Stats, the last time I looked, didn’t win anybody any points. What the stats actually say is 1) we couldn’t hit the Cow’s A*** with the proverbial banjo, and that if a team has 3 shots on goal they will score twice. You have to be a special kind of optimist to take any comfort in those stats- the only one that counts at the end of the day is points available 12, points taken 1. Okay so Jones out because we have been unlucky? Statistically speaking that is.
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Post by stokecitydom on Aug 22, 2019 15:58:24 GMT
I thought to myself that enough was enough after the Charlton game, then after the Derby equaliser & after last night that enough was enough & that Jones had to go.
But when you think about some of the things these so called professionals are doing & the mistakes they are making, it just makes me think that these players should be getting more of the blame than the manager. I know ultimately he’s the person that will get the blame but when you look at some of the things that are happening on the pitch, it’s comical.
If you played 5 a side at power league & your keeper did a couple of the things that Butland has done, you’d be fuming.
Imagine a centre half at Sunday league football doing what Batth did last night & letting a long ball bounce.
Or Woods and Allen not being goalside & bottling the tackle like they did last night.
Or Etebo playing a poor ball across the centre of the pitch.
The players need to step up big time, cut out the amateur mistakes & atleast give us a something to build on.
Hopefully heads will roll on Saturday & some of those who have been responsible for this will be axed. It can’t be good for squad morale if those who are failing are rewarded with a start week in week out.
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Post by thehoof on Aug 22, 2019 16:04:26 GMT
Stats, the last time I looked, didn’t win anybody any points. What the stats actually say is 1) we couldn’t hit the Cow’s A*** with the proverbial banjo, and that if a team has 3 shots on goal they will score twice. You have to be a special kind of optimist to take any comfort in those stats- the only one that counts at the end of the day is points available 12, points taken 1. Okay so Jones out because we have been unlucky? Statistically speaking that is. Where have I said Jones out?
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