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Post by mickmillslovechild on Feb 14, 2019 10:19:39 GMT
Like he did at West Brom, old news please move on More impotantly like he did at Stoke and got us 10 years at the top table so YOU move on! So you're telling people to move on....after putting somebody forward based on their results for us 6 years ago (which incidentally were fucking garbage at that time)? Ok then!
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Post by tony1234 on Feb 14, 2019 10:23:06 GMT
NJ was intelligent enough to create a very effective system at Luton with the players he had Now he inherits a different situation and its a question of how quickly and intelligently he learns the fact that either a) he needs a different system because his Luton diamond won't work or b) there are very clear reasons that his players have not yet effectively implemented it, which he can take action on to correct. If he does that thing of trying the same same thing but expecting different results, i don't care if hes been in the job 5 mins or 5 years, that is not the trait of a manager that is up to it and needs to go ASAP. So he gets whinged at if he sticks to his diamond and he gets whinged at if he changes his diamond? We've been awful all season but he doesn't know what he's doing if we don't miraculously and from nowhere start getting instant results? Jesus wept... No, that's not what I meant, so perhaps it didn't translate. As backdrop - I am hoping we finish in the top 18 this year and NJ stays as I like him very much. I accept that a 9-10th next season would actually be a very good achievement with the legacy of deadwood, club culture and low confidence. What I'd like to see from him (in fact really do insist) though is evidence is he is constantly learning and implementing solutions to past mistakes/shortcomings. In solving one thing, another will pop up etc etc, so these won't translate to consistent results for some time. And we'll have to be patient when there are strange decisins - like Shawx as a CF! Why I ultimately think NJ can do it is his guts and ability and readiness to innovate; to change; to learn; to try again. So, if he stops doing that and makes the same mistakes, he isn't the solution. If he becomes intransigent and inflexible and fails to learn/adapt, that's not what we need.
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Post by Gods on Feb 14, 2019 10:23:40 GMT
I don't understand why so many people on this thread are so excepting of things getting worse. Why can't we have a manager who improves things for once instead? Other teams are allowed that, the much vaunted new manager bounce. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some improvement from better team selection, coaching, tactics and motivation. Particularly since it was the same people saying Rowett had all the above wrong. Then hopefilly some further improvement as the manager gradually assembles his own players over a few seasons. Although on the above point if Vokes is any longer a £9m striker I'm a China man. Why don't you wait and see what happens then? Give the bloke a chance for Christs's sake instead of demanding his head before his seat is even warm. I haven't demanded his head, I said I like him even if he does seem a bit crackers. I pointed out what many were conveniently ignoring in their desire for him to succeed that results have incedibly got even worse under his stewardship and if things don't improve he will be gone. This cheery facade of 'we don't care about goals or results' on here won't stretch beyond a few more short weeks. That much I know for certain. We need some wins and some goals quick smart, not in 2 seasons. In 2 seasons time the parachute payments are finished, average annual media rights revenue in the Championship is £6m in TOTAL or two thirds of a Sam Vokes if you can imagine what that plays like!
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Post by s8to on Feb 14, 2019 10:23:48 GMT
Our midfield is a god damn disaster and there’s no magic formation or tactics Jones can use to fix them ...add to that the defence and the attack..
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 10:26:39 GMT
Which I said AFTER you'd brought Pulis into it with the tedious Pulista / Wankstain thing. Anyway go take one of your HRT pills and come back with an answer to the question of who said 'goals don't matter'. Fuck me it's like arguing with a six year old. If you really believe this is about Pulis, which you clearly do, I fear for your mental fortitude. It amuses me that you travelled to Belgium to suck fat Dutch todger because you found shot shy Pulisball shit and now you're defending shot shy shit to the hilt and somehow still blaming Pulis for it! It' a work of genius really! You're right. It is exactly like arguing with a six year old. So, because I'm the adult in this conversation and you're behaving like a child: I don't believe it's about Pulis. But some people do. That's my point. It's about Nathan Jones. There are people on here openly comparing the two, including you. And you need to stop it. If nobody ever mentioned Pulis ever again on here, it would suit me fine. I'm not defending 'shot shy'. I haven't defended anything or criticised anything. I just think we should give the bloke time and judge him then. That's the grown up thing to do. And you still haven't answered that question. It's almost like you made the whole thing up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 10:27:12 GMT
As bad as under Rowett? So drawing last night and at least looking basically competent in that 2nd half was worse than that utterly embarrassing 3-0 thrashing at home to Wigan was it? How ridiculous to compare 1 game. You're comparing six leagues and we didn't do that much better in the same games with Rowett either. We had one more point under Rowett from the same reverse fixtures. So I don't think I'm the one being ridiculous here...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 10:32:06 GMT
Fuck me it's like arguing with a six year old. If you really believe this is about Pulis, which you clearly do, I fear for your mental fortitude. It amuses me that you travelled to Belgium to suck fat Dutch todger because you found shot shy Pulisball shit and now you're defending shot shy shit to the hilt and somehow still blaming Pulis for it! It' a work of genius really! You're right. It is exactly like arguing with a six year old. So, because I'm the adult in this conversation and you're behaving like a child: I don't believe it's about Pulis. But some people do. That's my point. It's about Nathan Jones. There are people on here openly comparing the two, including you. And you need to stop it. If nobody ever mentioned Pulis ever again on here, it would suit me fine. I'm not defending 'shot shy'. I haven't defended anything or criticised anything. I just think we should give the bloke time and judge him then. That's the grown up thing to do. And you still haven't answered that question. It's almost like you made the whole thing up. Where have I compared Jones to Pulis? More utter bollocks. I didn't bring Pulis into it and its you who has come up with some weird association between Jones and Pulis, resurrecting ancient conflicts in the process. I've explained what amuses me about your stance on the two managers and goals. Take it or leave it.
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Post by dingdongbell on Feb 14, 2019 10:35:53 GMT
He wasn't brought in to get a tune out of this squad or do anything this season. That was Rowetts task and it failed. Luton fans said it took him three transfer windows to get it right there. We should afford him the same patience (especially as we've been handing out long contracts like confetti and he won't be able to shift that deadwood easily). I agree that he should be given time, he wont be allowed three transfer windows though. He also has a massive problem due to the long fat contracts that the club has been handing out ( as you rightly said ). Its plain to see that some of these players seem to be here just for the money and given their ages this will be their last big contract , so I feel that they will be reluctant to move on if the club want to part with them unless they are given deal sweeteners, making the managers job even more difficult . The Club has created a huge costly mess in how they have done their business over the last couple of years. On a slightly more positive note , I thought the defence looked better against Wigan , although if Powell had started he may have caused us problems.
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 10:48:19 GMT
You're right. It is exactly like arguing with a six year old. So, because I'm the adult in this conversation and you're behaving like a child: I don't believe it's about Pulis. But some people do. That's my point. It's about Nathan Jones. There are people on here openly comparing the two, including you. And you need to stop it. If nobody ever mentioned Pulis ever again on here, it would suit me fine. I'm not defending 'shot shy'. I haven't defended anything or criticised anything. I just think we should give the bloke time and judge him then. That's the grown up thing to do. And you still haven't answered that question. It's almost like you made the whole thing up. Where have I compared Jones to Pulis? More utter bollocks. I didn't bring Pulis into it and its you who has come up with some weird association between Jones and Pulis, resurrecting ancient conflicts in the process. I've explained what amuses me about your stance on the two managers and goals. Take it or leave it. You compared Pulis's spending on players with recent managers IN THIS THREAD. You dragged up the whole boring PHW thing IN THIS THREAD. And you did it before I'd even mentioned him. IN THIS THREAD. It was other people who were comparing Jones to Pulis, not me. I asked them to stop. And still am. And guess what, you still haven't answered the question. Who has ever said 'goals don't matter'?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 10:50:12 GMT
On match days I curse him, but of course Nathan Jones needs to be given some time. If not for his sake, then certainly for the club's. The one thing we need most of all now is some continuity and stabilisation. We also need a manager who is in charge of some players (to be) that he purchased, not the scrambled leftovers from previous managers. So clearly we need Jones to be here for the long haul, and we need him to fully commit to that, i.e. if Burnley et al come calling in 12-18 months time, we need Jones to be so proud of what he has here that he won't even contemplate to do a runner. Whatever you say it cant be denied that he has previous (being us).
But that doesn't mean by any means that we aren't allowed to criticise him on a discussion board. He's been and keeps making some weird mistakes and there seems to be little consistency in some of the things he says and what he actually does (such as begging Bojan to stay and then not playing him, or saying left wing is macca space, then playing McClean up front in previous games (some as sub)).
But even if the most "extremely, extremely unlikely" was to happen, and we got relegated at the end of the season, we should keep faith with Jones.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 10:55:57 GMT
Where have I compared Jones to Pulis? More utter bollocks. I didn't bring Pulis into it and its you who has come up with some weird association between Jones and Pulis, resurrecting ancient conflicts in the process. I've explained what amuses me about your stance on the two managers and goals. Take it or leave it. You compared Pulis's spending on players with recent managers IN THIS THREAD. You dragged up the whole boring PHW thing IN THIS THREAD. And you did it before I'd even mentioned him. IN THIS THREAD. It was other people who were comparing Jones to Pulis, not me. I asked them to stop. And still am. And guess what, you still haven't answered the question. Who has ever said 'goals don't matter'? I didn't bring Pulis up though it was in response to other people comparing the two. It's clear from your conversation with your son, which took place prior to and outside of the microcosm of this thread that you are absolutely obsessed with Pulis and want to transfer opinions on to others that simply don't exist, most likely to assuage your own hypocrisy on the matter! I've explained the goals thing. Take it or leave it.
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 11:01:09 GMT
You compared Pulis's spending on players with recent managers IN THIS THREAD. You dragged up the whole boring PHW thing IN THIS THREAD. And you did it before I'd even mentioned him. IN THIS THREAD. It was other people who were comparing Jones to Pulis, not me. I asked them to stop. And still am. And guess what, you still haven't answered the question. Who has ever said 'goals don't matter'? I didn't bring Pulis up though it was in response to other people comparing the two. It's clear from your conversation with your son, which took place prior to and outside of the microcosm of this thread that you are absolutely obsessed with Pulis and want to transfer opinions on to others that simply don't exist, most likely to assuage your own hypocrisy on the matter! I've explained the goals thing. Take it or leave it. I mentioned it to my lad because some people are still hung up on Pulis. This thread absolutely proves it but there are others. My point is exactly that people should stop going on about him. It's history. You haven't explained the goals thing at all. You created a straw man argument and you've been called out on it. That is all. Nobody has ever said 'goals don't matter'. You made it up.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Feb 14, 2019 11:04:15 GMT
As bad as under Rowett? So drawing last night and at least looking basically competent in that 2nd half was worse than that utterly embarrassing 3-0 thrashing at home to Wigan was it? How ridiculous to compare 1 game. Almost a ridiculous as writing off a manager after a couple of games...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 11:10:26 GMT
I didn't bring Pulis up though it was in response to other people comparing the two. It's clear from your conversation with your son, which took place prior to and outside of the microcosm of this thread that you are absolutely obsessed with Pulis and want to transfer opinions on to others that simply don't exist, most likely to assuage your own hypocrisy on the matter! I've explained the goals thing. Take it or leave it. I mentioned it to my lad because some people are still hung up on Pulis. This thread absolutely proves it but there are others. My point is exactly that people should stop going on about him. It's history. You haven't explained the goals thing at all. You created a straw man argument and you've been called out on it. That is all. Nobody has ever said 'goals don't matter'. You made it up. There's plenty of examples on this board in the last 7 days saying that results and goals don't matter, 'just support the team/manger. etc. 'nothing else matters' and you're going down the exact same road. So entirely independently of this board you brought up Pulis in a conversation about Jones, something I can assure you I have not done in any of personal conversations about Jones on the basis of it being completely irrelevant. Worrying? A tad?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 11:10:43 GMT
How ridiculous to compare 1 game. Almost a ridiculous as writing off a manager after a couple of games... You're talking to the wrong person, I'm not writing him off, I've previously said he should remain manager even if we get relegated. That doesn't mean I can't point out that so far he's done nothing to improve performances and results are worse
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Post by Absolution on Feb 14, 2019 11:13:40 GMT
This thread's mint.
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 11:20:09 GMT
I mentioned it to my lad because some people are still hung up on Pulis. This thread absolutely proves it but there are others. My point is exactly that people should stop going on about him. It's history. You haven't explained the goals thing at all. You created a straw man argument and you've been called out on it. That is all. Nobody has ever said 'goals don't matter'. You made it up. There's plenty of examples on this board in the last 7 days saying that results and goals don't matter, 'just support the team/manger. etc. 'nothing else matters' and you're going down the exact same road. So entirely independently of this board you brought up Pulis in a conversation about Jones, something I can assure you I have not done in any of personal conversations about Jones on the basis of it being completely irrelevant. Worrying? A tad? Well, no and no. I'm sure everybody is as fascinated and interested in your relentless strawmanning as I am. So let's call it a day there. I've got work to do and you need to lie down.
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Post by keithbertschinsperm on Feb 14, 2019 11:20:12 GMT
Pulis has had 14 months to take a solid, good to go Middlesbrough from 7th place to the giddy heights of 6th, with the majority of their supporters wanting rid because of the turgid football. He relegated West Brom in exactly the same way that Hughes relegated us, with the majority of their supporters wanting rid because of the turgid football. He'd have done the same at Stoke if the board hadn't acted in a timely manner for once, getting rid while the supporters were leaving in droves because of the turgid football. He's not the answer. He's not even the question. Let it go and stop re-writing history FFS. One should never knock the fantastic achievements of Pulis at this club, Stoke got the very best of the peak of his managerial career, but I agree that the memory of those halcyon times should also be kept in perspective of where Pulis is today and not where he was 10 years + ago. Similar to Mourinho when he first waltzed into Chelsea, he was dynamic a defensive genius and a winner, he also looks tired, stale and outdated as unfortunately does TP. Football has moved on, the fluid passing/pressing of klopp/guardiola types is the benchmark, attacking flair football is the new nirvana and bus parking, with direct play is the era of yesteryear. Of course it's a results business, but I'm happy (now we're pretty safe) to at least try and look beyond points at any cost (rowetts rubbish) and live in expectation that soon enough with some remodelling, we'll also start to play decent attacking/pressing football, which we've not seem since Hughes first got here.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 11:22:48 GMT
There's plenty of examples on this board in the last 7 days saying that results and goals don't matter, 'just support the team/manger. etc. 'nothing else matters' and you're going down the exact same road. So entirely independently of this board you brought up Pulis in a conversation about Jones, something I can assure you I have not done in any of personal conversations about Jones on the basis of it being completely irrelevant. Worrying? A tad? Well, no and no. I'm sure everybody is as fascinated and interested in your relentless strawmanning as I am. So let's call it a day there. I've got work to do and you need to lie down. Ah, the last resort of the man who has been exposed for the Pulis obsessed hypocrite he is! The strawman comes out. The Oatcake's very own Godwin's Rule
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 11:27:36 GMT
Well, no and no. I'm sure everybody is as fascinated and interested in your relentless strawmanning as I am. So let's call it a day there. I've got work to do and you need to lie down. Ah, the last resort of the man who has been exposed for the Pulis obsessed hypocrite he is! The strawman comes out. The Oatcake's very own Godwin's Rule I know. It's like that time yesterday even before the game had kicked off you said Jones should be sacked. You can deny it but that just proves you said it.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 11:32:32 GMT
Ah, the last resort of the man who has been exposed for the Pulis obsessed hypocrite he is! The strawman comes out. The Oatcake's very own Godwin's Rule I know. It's like that time yesterday even before the game had kicked off you said Jones should be sacked. You can deny it but that just proves you said it. Is there a time when goals will matter or will you be in Denderleeuw by then?
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Post by Absolution on Feb 14, 2019 11:35:02 GMT
Pulis has had 14 months to take a solid, good to go Middlesbrough from 7th place to the giddy heights of 6th, with the majority of their supporters wanting rid because of the turgid football. He relegated West Brom in exactly the same way that Hughes relegated us, with the majority of their supporters wanting rid because of the turgid football. He'd have done the same at Stoke if the board hadn't acted in a timely manner for once, getting rid while the supporters were leaving in droves because of the turgid football. He's not the answer. He's not even the question. Let it go and stop re-writing history FFS. One should never knock the fantastic achievements of Pulis at this club, Stoke got the very best of the peak of his managerial career, but I agree that the memory of those halcyon times should also be kept in perspective of where Pulis is today and not where he was 10 years + ago. Similar to Mourinho when he first waltzed into Chelsea, he was dynamic a defensive genius and a winner, he also looks tired, stale and outdated as unfortunately does TP. Football has moved on, the fluid passing/pressing of klopp/guardiola types is the benchmark, attacking flair football is the new nirvana and bus parking, with direct play is the era of yesteryear. Of course it's a results business, but I'm happy (now we're pretty safe) to at least try and look beyond points at any cost (rowetts rubbish) and live in expectation that soon enough with some remodelling, we'll also start to play decent attacking/pressing football, which we've not seem since Hughes first got here. Agreed. I think part of the more patient stance towards Jones as opposed to Rowett is because the potential upside under Jones is far more attractive than it would have been under Rowett. That's not to say which of them will go on to be proven to be the more successful manager, just that success under Jones would most likely be more exciting and attractive aesthetically than it would under Rowett. Some people don't care so much about that, whereas it's a lot more important to some of us, hence the Pulis infinity loop that we'll most likely never be free of until everyone who was there has long gone.
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 12:06:34 GMT
I know. It's like that time yesterday even before the game had kicked off you said Jones should be sacked. You can deny it but that just proves you said it. Is there a time when goals will matter or will you be in Denderleeuw by then? Hey mate. I don't make the rules about how you debate on here. It's like the time you killed that puppy.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 12:11:00 GMT
Is there a time when goals will matter or will you be in Denderleeuw by then? Hey mate. I don't make the rules about how you debate on here. It's like the time you killed that puppy. You did go to Dendleeuw to rim a fat Dutchman because goals mattered then, didn't they mate? No straw, just the facts!
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Feb 14, 2019 12:18:24 GMT
Harsh.
Always pretty nasty to watch a manager try to do the right thing under difficult circumstances.
He came in and had his immediate shock v Brentford. Since then his main focus has been, and had to be, how to get the defence to work in the formation he wants to playZ he seems to be getting there. Hardly gave WBA or Wigan a sniff except one set piece lapse.
Next step is to get this midfield going. Rowett never came close, Jones has to, Adam being injured has done him no favours as he clearly needs a creative outlet in that position.
He’s getting dogs abuse for saying there was improvement in the Albion and Wigan performances but there clearly was improvement in terms of our control of the game and our commitment to the shape we were supposed to be playing. We didn’t create anything v Albion but against Wigan we should have scored at least 3 and missed absolute sitters.
Progress, slow progress admittedly
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 12:21:17 GMT
Hey mate. I don't make the rules about how you debate on here. It's like the time you killed that puppy. You did go to Dendleeuw to rim a fat Dutchman because goals mattered then, didn't they mate? No straw, just the facts! No I didn't. This is exactly like the time you robbed from your own gran.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 12:25:18 GMT
You did go to Dendleeuw to rim a fat Dutchman because goals mattered then, didn't they mate? No straw, just the facts! No I didn't. This is exactly like the time you robbed from your own gran. Really. Old Stokie told me that you were there. A full turnout on the 'Parade of the wankstains'. When goals mattered.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Feb 14, 2019 12:33:22 GMT
Almost a ridiculous as writing off a manager after a couple of games... You're talking to the wrong person, I'm not writing him off, I've previously said he should remain manager even if we get relegated. That doesn't mean I can't point out that so far he's done nothing to improve performances and results are worse Are his results not the same over 6 games as Rowetts, with a team that he didn’t put together himself What were you expecting him to achieve after 6 games?
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Post by greyman on Feb 14, 2019 12:34:14 GMT
No I didn't. This is exactly like the time you robbed from your own gran. Really. Old Stokie told me that you were there. A full turnout on the 'Parade of the wankstains'. When goals mattered. The point is, and I don't know why I bother, that nobody has ever said 'goals don't matter'. You made that up. And repeating it doesn't make it true. This is exactly like that time you made a living as a twink in the Bangkok Hilton.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 12:39:42 GMT
Really. Old Stokie told me that you were there. A full turnout on the 'Parade of the wankstains'. When goals mattered. The point is, and I don't know why I bother, that nobody has ever said 'goals don't matter'. You made that up. And repeating it doesn't make it true. This is exactly like that time you made a living as a twink in the Bangkok Hilton. #pray4goals #wontsomeonethinkofthedenderbenders
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