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Post by neddy on Feb 3, 2019 20:56:41 GMT
I wonder how good Corrigan is in relation to Tymon?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 20:59:24 GMT
I wonder how good Corrigan is in relation to Tymon? Looks like he’s on ever played U18s not even U23s. It looks like a bit too much of a leap to me but I don’t know anything about him so can’t really say
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Feb 3, 2019 23:49:46 GMT
Sounds like the diamond is going nowhere. No surprise really. He and Hart have obviously got massive faith in it long-term. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-fans-hull-city-2502037“I want us to get results, but I also want us to build something moving forward so that we have a structure in place that’s going to make us a very good side. “Now, to do that, personnel is one thing, but they also have to grasp a new thing. “They’ve been used to playing a 4-2-3-1, or 4-4-2, but we want to implement something here and we believe in what we want to do. “It’s just certain things out of possession that we have to get better at.” 100% the right thing to do.
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Post by neddy on Feb 4, 2019 11:56:57 GMT
If Clucas goes left back surely we have to bring back Woods until Adam is fit to complete the diamond4?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 12:01:16 GMT
If Clucas goes left back surely we have to bring back Woods until Adam is fit to complete the diamond4? Adam does not suit the diamond,the deep midfielder has to be a defensive minded player,a ball winner
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Post by neddy on Feb 4, 2019 12:04:12 GMT
If Clucas goes left back surely we have to bring back Woods until Adam is fit to complete the diamond4? Adam does not suit the diamond,the deep midfielder has to be a defensive minded player,a ball winner I agree but who can we play there for now though?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 12:12:37 GMT
Allen for me,he was good there Saturday until 2 lapses of concentration late on,with Woods onthe right and Etebo on the left
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Post by madeinthepotteries on Feb 4, 2019 12:13:45 GMT
If Clucas goes left back surely we have to bring back Woods until Adam is fit to complete the diamond4? Adam does not suit the diamond,the deep midfielder has to be a defensive minded player,a ball winner Not true, most teams that play a diamond have a playmaker at the base. The two side midfielders are the ball winners or "shuttlers" as they are generally referred to. There are some exceptions but I should think Jones would want a technician at the base to start attacks
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 12:15:08 GMT
Adam does not suit the diamond,the deep midfielder has to be a defensive minded player,a ball winner Not true, most teams that play a diamond have a playmaker at the base. The two side midfielders are the ball winners or "shuttlers" as they are generally referred to. There are some exceptions but I should think Jones would want a technician at the base to start attacks I can see that being nothing but a disaster with our defence www.buildlineup.com/articles/2/football-formation-4-4-2-diamond
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Post by madeinthepotteries on Feb 4, 2019 12:18:44 GMT
Not true, most teams that play a diamond have a playmaker at the base. The two side midfielders are the ball winners or "shuttlers" as they are generally referred to. There are some exceptions but I should think Jones would want a technician at the base to start attacks I can see that being nothing but a disaster with our defence Yes at the moment. That is why the diamond is so hard to get right. The two in midfield need to do the work of four players in effect as they need to cover out wide as well as protecting the defence. I don't know why he doesn't just stick with the 352. That would suit the players he currently has. You also get better width which Vokes would need for crosses
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 12:20:23 GMT
I can see that being nothing but a disaster with our defence Yes at the moment. That is why the diamond is so hard to get right. The two in midfield need to do the work of four players in effect as they need to cover out wide as well as protecting the defence. I don't know why he doesn't just stick with the 352. That would suit the players he currently has. You also get better width which Vokes would need for crosses 3-5-2 needs Adam, he's not fit. According to that link I added,the 1 at the bases is always a defensive midfielder
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Post by neddy on Feb 4, 2019 12:20:56 GMT
I can see that being nothing but a disaster with our defence Yes at the moment. That is why the diamond is so hard to get right. The two in midfield need to do the work of four players in effect as they need to cover out wide as well as protecting the defence. I don't know why he doesn't just stick with the 352. That would suit the players he currently has. You also get better width which Vokes would need for crosses Yes that makes sense for now especially re the left back issue? But will he change?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 4, 2019 12:22:32 GMT
It’s the dilemma do you pick a system that fits the players or pick a system you want? I’d rather the former part way through a season. I am struggling to understand his team selection choices and positions that’s for sure. How many players has NJ used in 5 games? Picking the system has to suit the players you have, personally I think we should play 9-1-1. I was very critical of Rowetts tactics, but maybe just maybe he was doing a good job with players he thought himself were good which is why we played the way we did. NJ has had a worse start to Rowett. When does it become an issue. Do we seriously think we’ll beat West Brom and Wigan away, if we don’t? Then what? Ride it out. When does it become an issue when we’ve dropped to 20th? I’m seriously thinking at the moment that if we didn’t have 35 points under Rowett we would be contenders to go down. I want to give this guy a chance like most, I’m just not seeing what everyone else sees maybe? Rowett was getting the best out of the squad and he adopted early by playing a flat back four to counter weaknesses at centre back. Jones' diamond requires the fullbacks to get forward so we're back to square one. The club gave up on promotion this year when they sacked Rowett. Jones has a brief to tear up the squad and start again - which he's doing mid season. He's also decided to establish his preferred formation. Things are bound to get worse before that get better. Anyone surprised by how bad it is simply didn't get what was going on when we appointed Jones. Any pretension at being a Premiership side has gone out the window. We are rebuilding to be an effective Championship side that can hopefully earn promotion in 2 or 3 seasons time. Until then the only thing to hope for this season is we avoid relegation and that shit results like those against Brentford, Preston and Hull are going to be the norm rather than the exception because like it or not as things stand they are better adapted to the Championship than we are at the moment. You'll find humble pie is the dessert having dined on prawn sandwiches.
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Post by madeinthepotteries on Feb 4, 2019 12:37:58 GMT
Yes at the moment. That is why the diamond is so hard to get right. The two in midfield need to do the work of four players in effect as they need to cover out wide as well as protecting the defence. I don't know why he doesn't just stick with the 352. That would suit the players he currently has. You also get better width which Vokes would need for crosses 3-5-2 needs Adam, he's not fit. According to that link I added,the 1 at the bases is always a defensive midfielder Noted re Adam and 352 yes agreed. There are plenty of examples of playmakers at the base of a Diamond - Pirlo as Juventus back around 2014. Also, Wilshire played at the base of England's Diamond under Hodgson before he tore it up to accomodate Rooney in midfield. The base midfielder in the Diamond does need to read the game and intercept but not necassarily a 'destroyer'
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 12:42:44 GMT
3-5-2 needs Adam, he's not fit. According to that link I added,the 1 at the bases is always a defensive midfielder Noted re Adam and 352 yes agreed. There are plenty of examples of playmakers at the base of a Diamond - Pirlo as Juventus back around 2014. Also, Wilshire played at the base of England's Diamond under Hodgson before he tore it up to accomodate Rooney in midfield. The base midfielder in the Diamond does need to read the game and intercept but not necassarily a 'destroyer' Didn't Matic play at the base for Chelsea in a diamond ? I think you'll find destroyer is the norm
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Post by madeinthepotteries on Feb 4, 2019 12:49:08 GMT
Noted re Adam and 352 yes agreed. There are plenty of examples of playmakers at the base of a Diamond - Pirlo as Juventus back around 2014. Also, Wilshire played at the base of England's Diamond under Hodgson before he tore it up to accomodate Rooney in midfield. The base midfielder in the Diamond does need to read the game and intercept but not necassarily a 'destroyer' Didn't Matic play at the base for Chelsea in a diamond ? I think you'll find destroyer is the norm I think the base midfielder is the one that defines the system. So a detsroyer makes the system more counter attacking and a playmaker makes it more possession based. That is really the only flexible role in the system as the other roles are fairly standard within a diamond See here: www.thefalse9.com/2016/01/diamond-formation-football.html"The diamond is also extremely good as an attacking formation. Not only do the two box-to-box midfielders allow for quick transitions, each one of the four man midfield has an attacking role to play, from the orthodox number 10 at the ‘tip’ of the diamond to the deep-lying playmaker at the base. A fine example of the attacking potential of this system would be the Liverpool side of 2013-14; with Steven Gerrard as the deepest midfielder, the team were able to switch from defence to attack very rapidly due to his passing range and the speed on the counter of players such as Henderson, Coutinho and Sterling. Likewise, the 2005 Milan team profited hugely from having Andrea Pirlo directing their attacks from deep and a formidable combination of Gattuso, Seedorf and Kaka ahead of him"
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Post by gingerninja on Feb 4, 2019 12:58:30 GMT
We simply don't have the midfielders to play the diamond at present. We are not quick enough on the ball and not aggressive or strong enough out of possession. We lose way too many 50/50 challenges and have done for as long as I can remember. A fully fit Dalif Daio in his prime would be ideal at the base of the diamond.
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Post by gingerninja on Feb 4, 2019 12:59:00 GMT
Salif!!
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Post by RF10 on Feb 4, 2019 13:20:58 GMT
Didn't Matic play at the base for Chelsea in a diamond ? I think you'll find destroyer is the norm I think the base midfielder is the one that defines the system. So a detsroyer makes the system more counter attacking and a playmaker makes it more possession based. That is really the only flexible role in the system as the other roles are fairly standard within a diamond See here: www.thefalse9.com/2016/01/diamond-formation-football.html"The diamond is also extremely good as an attacking formation. Not only do the two box-to-box midfielders allow for quick transitions, each one of the four man midfield has an attacking role to play, from the orthodox number 10 at the ‘tip’ of the diamond to the deep-lying playmaker at the base. A fine example of the attacking potential of this system would be the Liverpool side of 2013-14; with Steven Gerrard as the deepest midfielder, the team were able to switch from defence to attack very rapidly due to his passing range and the speed on the counter of players such as Henderson, Coutinho and Sterling. Likewise, the 2005 Milan team profited hugely from having Andrea Pirlo directing their attacks from deep and a formidable combination of Gattuso, Seedorf and Kaka ahead of him" Good post. Pirlo was the master of that position. If Woods doesn't fit the bill we will almost certain be making it top priority in the summer.
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Post by Ex-term-oat-cake on Feb 4, 2019 13:32:50 GMT
Butland
Bauer Shawcross Baath (C) Clucas
Woods Allen Etebo Bojan
Afobe Vokes
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 13:39:07 GMT
Butland Bauer Shawcross Baath (C) Clucas Woods Allen Etebo Bojan Afobe Vokes I would like to see Shawcross back on Saturday. I know he's not the most mobile anymore but he's always been at his best in a strong pairing and he's not had that with BMI (just not switched on enough) or Williams (goes AWOL). I do not think he's worse than Williams and BMI can just be so hit and miss. Provided he's allowed to sit and defend and do what he does best and isn't expected to be playing out from the back constantly (leave that for the full backs), I think he's our best option to partner Batth. And if Clucas is, well, being Clucas on the day switch Bauer over to the left and bring Edwards on and see how he gets on.
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Post by robwahlmann on Feb 4, 2019 14:07:38 GMT
Butland Bauer Shawcross Baath (C) Clucas Woods Allen Etebo Bojan Afobe Vokes Swap Bojan for Berahino and that might work.
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Post by Pirate on Feb 4, 2019 14:51:13 GMT
I am all for him having a system he believes in & wanting to implement it as quickly as possible, the problem for me is the fact that confidence is never going to come back if we are just getting beaten every week, at this rate we would be lucky to pick up another 2/3 wins this season, which leaves us going into next year off the back of another appalling positives free season. Bearing in my that whether we like it or not there is going to be a significant portion of these players involved next season as it is totally unfeasible to recycle 22 players.
I dont think this will do anybody, players, fans or staff any good whatsoever. The most important thing is to bring positivity back & sprinkle a little feel good around the place at the moment in my opinion, not this system or that.
If this is all about setting up for the future then why is James MacClean starting up front, is that a long term option we are looking at for next season, i dont think so, Nathan was trying to win the game, so there is room for a bit of short term thinking.
The diamond will not work with a center half at left back, it really is that simple. Personally i would run with the 3-5-2, it gives him wing backs to work on, a 3 man midfield to work on & the 2 up top to work on, all suitable for his preferred system but giving us half a chance of keeping a clean sheet.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 15:19:01 GMT
As much as I would like to see NJ bed in his diamond I would revert to 3 at the back for now at least until we have 50 points. playing a 352 we could be flexible between 3142 and 3412 for different games and being able to swap between formations during games. Butland Williams Batth Indi Every one seems to agree that Williams is useless as a defender, and yet they will go as far as going against the manager's system, in order to have Williams in the system of their choice. Every one - the problematic thing is it seems to include Nathan Jones. He has figured out that Williams is the main reason we keep conceding the same type of goal every week. And yet he keeps selecting Williams every week. This despite his alleged dislike of using players on loan. 34-year old Williams cannot be said to represent the future, so he's building for the future with a player who's not going to be part of that future. So either Williams has a must play clause in his contract or Jones considers the alternatives - Shawcross, BMI, Collins - to be even worse than Williams.
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Post by gingerninja on Feb 4, 2019 15:27:46 GMT
It's tough on Jones, he can't really 'cull' most of the ones he may want to without damaging the morale, Shawcross was benched & if Williams was bombed as well then it could affect the dynamic of the changing room.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 15:36:03 GMT
It's tough on Jones, he can't really 'cull' most of the ones he may want to without damaging the morale, Shawcross was benched & if Williams was bombed as well then it could affect the dynamic of the changing room. The morale is already damaged beyond repair. Now Saturday he played a new CB in Batth. In theory, the dawning of a new era. But the impact of the new captain is already reduced, as he became part of our defensive problems.
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Post by pmjh on Feb 4, 2019 16:06:27 GMT
As much as I would like to see NJ bed in his diamond I would revert to 3 at the back for now at least until we have 50 points. playing a 352 we could be flexible between 3142 and 3412 for different games and being able to swap between formations during games. Butland Williams Batth Indi Every one seems to agree that Williams is useless as a defender, and yet they will go as far as going against the manager's system, in order to have Williams in the system of their choice. Every one - the problematic thing is it seems to include Nathan Jones. He has figured out that Williams is the main reason we keep conceding the same type of goal every week. And yet he keeps selecting Williams every week. This despite his alleged dislike of using players on loan. 34-year old Williams cannot be said to represent the future, so he's building for the future with a player who's not going to be part of that future. So either Williams has a must play clause in his contract or Jones considers the alternatives - Shawcross, BMI, Collins - to be even worse than Williams. That's a bit of a strange comment it's not going against the managers system to accommodate anybody. The 352 is more suited to the personnel we currently have. The reason I woluld play Williams in that system is that I think he is more suitable to play alongside Batth than Shawcross. I think as you saw against Leeds that when playing a 3 they are not left as exposed as in a 2.
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Post by jezzascfc on Feb 4, 2019 16:13:08 GMT
I am all for him having a system he believes in & wanting to implement it as quickly as possible, the problem for me is the fact that confidence is never going to come back if we are just getting beaten every week, at this rate we would be lucky to pick up another 2/3 wins this season, which leaves us going into next year off the back of another appalling positives free season. Bearing in my that whether we like it or not there is going to be a significant portion of these players involved next season as it is totally unfeasible to recycle 22 players. I dont think this will do anybody, players, fans or staff any good whatsoever. The most important thing is to bring positivity back & sprinkle a little feel good around the place at the moment in my opinion, not this system or that. If this is all about setting up for the future then why is James MacClean starting up front, is that a long term option we are looking at for next season, i dont think so, Nathan was trying to win the game, so there is room for a bit of short term thinking. The diamond will not work with a center half at left back, it really is that simple. Personally i would run with the 3-5-2, it gives him wing backs to work on, a 3 man midfield to work on & the 2 up top to work on, all suitable for his preferred system but giving us half a chance of keeping a clean sheet. I agree - for now the diamond is a stretch for us without the personnel to play it. By all means, bring in the right players and drill them in it in pre-season, but we have to indulge in a spot of pragmatism in setting up the players we have in the best formation for them to actually stand a chance to win the odd football match in the here and now! Butland Williams Batth Martins Indi Edwards Allen Woods Etebo McClean (Clucas has to be dropped after THAT performance) Afobe Vokes
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 16:14:11 GMT
It's tough on Jones, he can't really 'cull' most of the ones he may want to without damaging the morale, Shawcross was benched & if Williams was bombed as well then it could affect the dynamic of the changing room. The morale is already damaged beyond repair. Now Saturday he played a new CB in Batth. In theory, the dawning of a new era. But the impact of the new captain is already reduced, as he became part of our defensive problems. I don't really understand how Batth is part of our problems. I don't think he did anything wrong on Saturday and was organising them all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 19:47:34 GMT
The morale is already damaged beyond repair. Now Saturday he played a new CB in Batth. In theory, the dawning of a new era. But the impact of the new captain is already reduced, as he became part of our defensive problems. I don't really understand how Batth is part of our problems. I don't think he did anything wrong on Saturday and was organising them all. He lost, didn't he? He conceded two goals,eh?
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