|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 12:32:03 GMT
It isn't bad news if you have a big lad up front as you can mix it up. Jones had Collins at Luton. Pretty certain we signed one in January in readiness...? It was a bad signing. At least our Collins can distribute the ball.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 12:36:59 GMT
It isn't bad news if you have a big lad up front as you can mix it up. Jones had Collins at Luton. Pretty certain we signed one in January in readiness...? It was a bad signing. At least our Collins can distribute the ball. That literally makes no sense at all.
|
|
|
Post by tony1234 on Apr 19, 2019 14:25:01 GMT
Yep, lots of consensus with a few differences round the edges with people here. Consensus is that we have to fill at least 4 really really pivotal positions for the first team, and maybe 8-10 for the squad and do it very well. The challenge with the diamond over, say, a more standard 442 or 4231 is that I feel in those systems, you could get players more able to play a couple of systems or positions; or play the systems in slightly different ways based on personnel. However with the diamond, you absolutely need your full backs to be fast and able to both cross and defend (almost quasi wing backs), your CAM needs to be highly creative and mobile, your midfielders need to be capable of sustained lung busting performances, and you are effectively recruiting a squad without a winger or wide forward. A nice article here on the diamond, called the "dying formation":- footballbh.net/2018/02/27/4-1-2-1-2-diamond/. Funny that in this article it suggests the diamond means more attacking through the centre and so less reliance on forwards who can head: Question-mark over Vokes signing! Lots of the emphasis on the CAM. Question mark: Who the hell is that going to be? So what next? We might hope to recruit say 35m from Butland, Allen and then whoever we can shift out of Maclean, Pieters, Bauer, Woods, Bojan, BMI, Diouf. Can't see we can shift Afobe or Ince as it would mean taking a 5m hit on either i'd say. Berahinho needs to be out the picture. I really think NJ should reconsider his position on loans. Its almost a necessity to use the loan system and use it well: For a starter, its access to young athetic players. Secondly, loanees are generally key for promoted or challenging teams (particularly last season). Thirdly, it means we can focus our more modest (15m-20m?) investments on the 4-5 or so critical players we need to get right. For the same reason, we also need to be aggressive in the market for freebies. There are a few useful ones kicking around this summer, not be just for the first #11, but squad players e.g. Klose at Norwich (CB), M Olsson at Swansea (LB), Knudsen at Ipswich (LB/CB), Gunarrson at Cardiff (CDM/CM), Fer at Swansea (CDM), Browne at Preston (CAM), Henrickson at Hull (CM), McGoldrick at Sheff Utd (CF). Olsson I think would fit the bill for LB. I don’t think Fer could play the CDM role, I think he’d be more Etebo role. And I can’t see mcgoldrick as he’s in the final stages of his career now isn’t he? McGoldrick's 31. Playing regularly and scoring. If Sheff U go up, would imagine they'd upgrade this area. With very finite resources needing to go a long way, we need to be expedient and resourceful about fringe players. You are probably right about Fer.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 8:08:39 GMT
Having seen how open Spurs were in the week playing the diamond I can't say I'm overly enthused about the prospect. Better teams will just pick you off
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 21, 2019 8:10:26 GMT
Having seen how open Spurs were in the week playing the diamond I can't say I'm overly enthused about the prospect. Better teams will just pick you off They were playing a the most expensively assembled side in the world who were at home and desperately needed goals. Is that the best example to judge it on? What system is going to keep that at bay?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 8:15:44 GMT
Having seen how open Spurs were in the week playing the diamond I can't say I'm overly enthused about the prospect. Better teams will just pick you off They were playing a the most expensively assembled side in the world who were at home and desperately needed goals. Is that the best example to judge it on? What system is going to keep that at bay? It's all relative.Clearly Luton are the best team in league 2 so it works and works well......with the right players. Are we going to be able to get the right players AND be 1 of the better teams next season too ? I can't see it myself. You don't have to be a Man C or a Barcelona to overcome another teams formation and tactics Edit,typo ,meant league 1
|
|
|
Post by LankyPotter on Apr 21, 2019 8:22:57 GMT
They were playing a the most expensively assembled side in the world who were at home and desperately needed goals. Is that the best example to judge it on? What system is going to keep that at bay? It's all relative.Clearly Luton are the best team in league 2 so it works and works well......with the right players. Are we going to be able to get the right players AND be 1 of the better teams next season too ? I can't see it myself. You don't have to be a Man C or a Barcelona to overcome another teams formation and tactics But Jones made them the best side in League 1, so why not wait and see if he can so that with us before commenting? I think he will, but it may take longer than a year but I’m okay with that tbh prefer the foundations to be properly built for a sustained stay before rushing it and becoming a yo-yo club.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 21, 2019 9:11:11 GMT
They were playing a the most expensively assembled side in the world who were at home and desperately needed goals. Is that the best example to judge it on? What system is going to keep that at bay? It's all relative.Clearly Luton are the best team in league 2 so it works and works well......with the right players. Are we going to be able to get the right players AND be 1 of the better teams next season too ? I can't see it myself. You don't have to be a Man C or a Barcelona to overcome another teams formation and tactics Edit,typo ,meant league 1 You don't but it's an odd example to use to suggest it doesn't work. Especially given they won the tie! No formation works without the right players. The problem has been that the squad is a hideously, unbalanced mess thanks to Hughes and Rowett and doesn't obviously suit any formation.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Apr 21, 2019 9:26:16 GMT
It's all relative.Clearly Luton are the best team in league 2 so it works and works well......with the right players. Are we going to be able to get the right players AND be 1 of the better teams next season too ? I can't see it myself. You don't have to be a Man C or a Barcelona to overcome another teams formation and tactics But Jones made them the best side in League 1, so why not wait and see if he can so that with us before commenting? I think he will, but it may take longer than a year but I’m okay with that tbh prefer the foundations to be properly built for a sustained stay before rushing it and becoming a yo-yo club. Yo yoing between League 1 and 2 because on current form that is where he is taking us.
|
|
|
Post by GeneralFaye on Apr 21, 2019 9:29:40 GMT
But Jones made them the best side in League 1, so why not wait and see if he can so that with us before commenting? I think he will, but it may take longer than a year but I’m okay with that tbh prefer the foundations to be properly built for a sustained stay before rushing it and becoming a yo-yo club. Yo yoing between League 1 and 2 because on current form that is where he is taking us. Don't be daft.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Apr 21, 2019 9:35:11 GMT
Yo yoing between League 1 and 2 because on current form that is where he is taking us. Don't be daft. Is our form since NJ taking over relegation material
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 21, 2019 9:36:08 GMT
Is our form since NJ taking over relegation material So the personnel is going to be exactly the same next season is it?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 9:36:15 GMT
Is our form since NJ taking over relegation material It’s Easter. Have a day off.
|
|
|
Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 21, 2019 9:59:15 GMT
If we are stuck with most of these players next season,forget the Diamond system,the best he could hope for,is the Zircon system.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Apr 21, 2019 10:00:32 GMT
Having seen how open Spurs were in the week playing the diamond I can't say I'm overly enthused about the prospect. Better teams will just pick you off They were playing a the most expensively assembled side in the world who were at home and desperately needed goals. Is that the best example to judge it on? What system is going to keep that at bay? 784
|
|
|
Post by numpty40 on Apr 21, 2019 10:14:35 GMT
I actually believe that with the mish mash of a squad we have the diamond system would suit the players better and that, s why for the life of me I can't understand why Jones hasn't played it from the start and stuck with it. The system should have been drilled into them from the first week but instead we've had various systems where in the most part the players appear not have a clue what system they're supposed to be playing themselves.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Apr 21, 2019 10:47:00 GMT
Is our form since NJ taking over relegation material So the personnel is going to be exactly the same next season is it? Hopefully not but there will not be wholesale changes 3-4 new faces at most, do you trust the process to get it right ? can you see the point of Sam Vokes at £9m ? did NJ want Vokes or was he pushed on him ?
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 21, 2019 10:51:21 GMT
So the personnel is going to be exactly the same next season is it? Hopefully not but there will not be wholesale changes 3-4 new faces at most, do you trust the process to get it right ? can you see the point of Sam Vokes at £9m ? did NJ want Vokes or was he pushed on him ? I think Jones will know who and what he’s looking for. I think Vokes will be fine and think that while he was on the list Jones was more than happy to sign off on it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 11:13:20 GMT
Yo yoing between League 1 and 2 because on current form that is where he is taking us. Don't be daft. That could be a tricky request for crapslinger......
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 11:34:40 GMT
I'm honestly torn.
We could have a great summer getting rid of the deadwood, bringing in players who are hungry and have something to prove, who will work perfectly within NJ's diamond. Even if we have a slow start, you'd think - following on from opinions from Luton fans - that we'd then be flying soon after that.
Of course, the flip side is that we either keep a lot of the deadwood or buy more overpriced crap (just because it's available) which doesn't fit NJ's system (thanks to 'the process'), which would then eventually lead to muddled performances and NJ being sacked. We'd then be stuck in Championship midtable for a while, or worse...
Thing is, both scenarios seem likely atm. We don't have that institutional leadership from the level of the CEO/club director to actually move all the required disparate aspects into place. Kudos if it happens, but I'm not confident atm. Reading that article about the Webber chap at Norwich makes me realise that this summer is crucial from both an ethos-refreshing point of view but also from a root-and-branch cull perspective.
One thing that keeps the positivity alive for me is NJ's successful promotion and development of Edwards, Collins, Campbell and Verlinden. Definitely moving in the right direction there. Just need rid of most of the ex-PL players; wrong attitude, no motivation, less reasons to actually give a shit...
|
|
|
Post by johnnysoul60 on Apr 21, 2019 14:00:11 GMT
One issue here I see is Vokes always played as one of a two for Burnley and doesnt have the legs to play up on his own , so we need pace around him a d have none .
|
|
|
Post by numpty40 on Apr 21, 2019 14:13:47 GMT
One issue here I see is Vokes always played as one of a two for Burnley and doesnt have the legs to play up on his own , so we need pace around him a d have none . We've got Afobe and Diouf who both have pace, trouble is they're not very good😕
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Apr 21, 2019 14:58:55 GMT
They were playing a the most expensively assembled side in the world who were at home and desperately needed goals. Is that the best example to judge it on? What system is going to keep that at bay? It's all relative.Clearly Luton are the best team in league 2 so it works and works well......with the right players. Are we going to be able to get the right players AND be 1 of the better teams next season too ? I can't see it myself. You don't have to be a Man C or a Barcelona to overcome another teams formation and tactics Edit,typo ,meant league 1 The operative words are League 1. Jones has no experience at this level and it shows. The margin between the top team and bottom team in the Championship is not as wide as in the Premier League. However the overall standard of play is much higher than in league 1. I predict Luton will struggle next season but will likely finish higher than Stoke unless there’s significant improvement, which I am not confident will occur because our best players will leave (imagine a team without Butland, Allen, Etebo, Williams, Martins Indi, Edwards, Shawcross and quite possibly Verlinden if he doesn’t play much in the last three games) Even if we can replace them with like for like we’ll be standing still and effectively going backwards relative to the other teams.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 15:03:46 GMT
Luton playing the diamond in the championship next season after a couple of seasons perfecting it will give us a good guide as to whether it will work at this level. If they fall on their asses will Jones change tact ? Who knows,they might storm the league
|
|
|
Post by Absolution on Apr 21, 2019 15:42:34 GMT
Luton playing the diamond in the championship next season after a couple of seasons perfecting it will give us a good guide as to whether it will work at this level. If they fall on their asses will Jones change tact ? Who knows,they might storm the league I think Mick Harford has said he doesn't want the manager's job permanently - though he may well since have changed his mind. The next manager will have his own ideas, so the diamond will probably not be his thing.
|
|
|
Post by bolders on Apr 21, 2019 18:17:24 GMT
new keeper* Edwards Batth Collins New LB** New DM*** Clucas Woods McClean Vokes Afobe Subs; Federici, Shawcross/Soutter, Ince, Verlinden, Campbell, Sorensen, Versatile RB/LB/CB**** * no idea on keepers ** James Justin *** Ben Pearson/Semi Ajayi (can play CB to) **** No idea Right i will now explain my reasoning for this team. 1. He loves Clucas so he will be shoehorned in to any team 2. I think both Allen and Etebo will go 3. There is a player in Woods somewhere if we could just get him back. 4. Think he likes McClean and he has tried play him up front so why not here, gives abit of bite to that midfield (if we can get rid then we should and get Sawyers) 5. I think Bojan will go 6. Right the forwards i just don't think that he will be able to spend loads on another striker. Both have shown before that they are good we just have to get the balls to them
|
|
|
Post by heworksardtho on Apr 21, 2019 18:35:24 GMT
Are they forever 😎
|
|
|
Post by LankyPotter on Apr 21, 2019 19:27:54 GMT
But Jones made them the best side in League 1, so why not wait and see if he can so that with us before commenting? I think he will, but it may take longer than a year but I’m okay with that tbh prefer the foundations to be properly built for a sustained stay before rushing it and becoming a yo-yo club. Yo yoing between League 1 and 2 because on current form that is where he is taking us. Such a poor comment. You need to cheer up a little bit mate
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Apr 21, 2019 19:37:50 GMT
Yo yoing between League 1 and 2 because on current form that is where he is taking us. Such a poor comment. You need to cheer up a little bit mate Is it why it's the truth you may not like it but take off the rose tinted specs. And look at the facts
|
|