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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 13:53:38 GMT
See Justin Welbey is asking for greater taxation in support of a redistribution of wealth. We’ve gone so far down the of the demonisation of taxation that it’s become a dirty word. If people make great wealth from the infrastructures of society & our of the pockets/off the backs of those who live in it, why shouldn’t they pay for the privilege of amassing a fortune. There are arguments for and against this. You are right that people making an absolute fortune should redistribute some of their wealth, but at the same time, you are suggesting that we penalize intelligent or hard working people who are driven and make a success of themselves. Part of the reason we often see such rapid technological advances is because brilliant minds think of things not thought of before, design and develop them and subsequently reap the rewards afterwards. No doubt many fail though despite dedicating their lives to it. Some of the worlds most famous inventors died in poverty as they were unable to cash in on their revolutionary ideas. How about we penalize those brilliant minds for coming up with something that changed our lives (usually for the good)..... Let's make it so there's no motivation to do it? Why bother eh? You might be a brilliant mind but you are 'morally' obligated to earn the same as someone working in Tesco because that's fair. Fuck it, why bother? I'll just work in Tesco, save the stress of trying.... If we redistributed wealth in the way some hard left believe we should, we would probably still be riding penny farthings to work. Capitalism may be an awful system, but there's a reason why we have good irrigation, uninterrupted electricity, TV pictures that are almost indistinguishable from real life and cars that almost drive themselves..... Trust me, it ain't socialism, Marxism or communism.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2018 14:14:03 GMT
If people make great wealth from the infrastructures of society & our of the pockets/off the backs of those who live in it, why shouldn’t they pay for the privilege of amassing a fortune. We still seem to be labouring under the discredited key pillar of Reaganomics, that the wealth will 'trickle down.'. It doesn't, it is squirreled away, taken often offshore, shielded from collective pot. It is donated to friendly political causes, it is used in the media to make Political narrative, to make sure the resource on the back of which enormous profits are made remains downtrodden, rights curtailed, paralysed with fear, encouraged to turn on each other. It's genius, corrupt and heinous in equal measure.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 5, 2018 14:54:15 GMT
See Justin Welbey is asking for greater taxation in support of a redistribution of wealth. We’ve gone so far down the of the demonisation of taxation that it’s become a dirty word. If people make great wealth from the infrastructures of society & our of the pockets/off the backs of those who live in it, why shouldn’t they pay for the privilege of amassing a fortune. There are arguments for and against this. You are right that people making an absolute fortune should redistribute some of their wealth, but at the same time, you are suggesting that we penalize intelligent or hard working people who are driven and make a success of themselves. Part of the reason we often see such rapid technological advances is because brilliant minds think of things not thought of before, design and develop them and subsequently reap the rewards afterwards. No doubt many fail though despite dedicating their lives to it. Some of the worlds most famous inventors died in poverty as they were unable to cash in on their revolutionary ideas. How about we penalize those brilliant minds for coming up with something that changed our lives (usually for the good)..... Let's make it so there's no motivation to do it? Why bother eh? You might be a brilliant mind but you are 'morally' obligated to earn the same as someone working in Tesco because that's fair. Fuck it, why bother? I'll just work in Tesco, save the stress of trying.... If we redistributed wealth in the way some hard left believe we should, we would probably still be riding penny farthings to work. Capitalism may be an awful system, but there's a reason why we have good irrigation, uninterrupted electricity, TV pictures that are almost indistinguishable from real life and cars that almost drive themselves..... Trust me, it ain't socialism, Marxism or communism. "Brilliant minds", What, opportunists that made their money off the back of the tech world, Coffee chains, mail order. These people arnt all engineers & inventors. Making money doesn't make you a brilliant mind, superior to others or independent of the tax system. As for TVs that are indistinguishable from real life, I can tell the difference...
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 15:34:05 GMT
There are arguments for and against this. You are right that people making an absolute fortune should redistribute some of their wealth, but at the same time, you are suggesting that we penalize intelligent or hard working people who are driven and make a success of themselves. Part of the reason we often see such rapid technological advances is because brilliant minds think of things not thought of before, design and develop them and subsequently reap the rewards afterwards. No doubt many fail though despite dedicating their lives to it. Some of the worlds most famous inventors died in poverty as they were unable to cash in on their revolutionary ideas. How about we penalize those brilliant minds for coming up with something that changed our lives (usually for the good)..... Let's make it so there's no motivation to do it? Why bother eh? You might be a brilliant mind but you are 'morally' obligated to earn the same as someone working in Tesco because that's fair. Fuck it, why bother? I'll just work in Tesco, save the stress of trying.... If we redistributed wealth in the way some hard left believe we should, we would probably still be riding penny farthings to work. Capitalism may be an awful system, but there's a reason why we have good irrigation, uninterrupted electricity, TV pictures that are almost indistinguishable from real life and cars that almost drive themselves..... Trust me, it ain't socialism, Marxism or communism. "Brilliant minds", What, opportunists that made their money off the back of the tech world, Coffee chains, mail order. These people arnt all engineers & inventors. Making money doesn't make you a brilliant mind, superior to others or independent of the tax system. As for TVs that are indistinguishable from real life, I can tell the difference... You are conflating two different issues. Capitalism doesn't intrinsically result in tax dodging. Effective taxation is a government issue and the fact that successive governments have failed to effectively tax huge global corporations is nonpartisan. You might call them opportunists but there is a reason why McDonalds is the biggest fast food chain the world. It's not ideal but in a dog eat dog world, they essentially beat the competition by being cleaner, cheaper and (questionably) better. Brilliant minds like Tim Berners Lee.... Is he an opportunist? No, he invented the platform we are using to have this discussion. Is he a millionaire? I suspect so..... Should he be heavily penalised because he's smarter than some unemployed scrote who thinks it's ok to steal a pair of wrought iron gates from the side of my house to pay for his pint of Fosters? No. I don't think he should. He should pay his fair share of tax and I hope he does. If we do ever adopt socialism or communism, expect technological advancement to grind to a halt as the most intelligent minds in the world decide to fuck off university and work in the socialist equivalent of Argos. Why dedicate your life to something for no reward? We're not all altruists. Some of us actually want a better life than a rundown 2 up 2 down council house. Sorry for that.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2018 15:36:37 GMT
There are arguments for and against this. You are right that people making an absolute fortune should redistribute some of their wealth, but at the same time, you are suggesting that we penalize intelligent or hard working people who are driven and make a success of themselves. Part of the reason we often see such rapid technological advances is because brilliant minds think of things not thought of before, design and develop them and subsequently reap the rewards afterwards. No doubt many fail though despite dedicating their lives to it. Some of the worlds most famous inventors died in poverty as they were unable to cash in on their revolutionary ideas. How about we penalize those brilliant minds for coming up with something that changed our lives (usually for the good)..... Let's make it so there's no motivation to do it? Why bother eh? You might be a brilliant mind but you are 'morally' obligated to earn the same as someone working in Tesco because that's fair. Fuck it, why bother? I'll just work in Tesco, save the stress of trying.... If we redistributed wealth in the way some hard left believe we should, we would probably still be riding penny farthings to work. Capitalism may be an awful system, but there's a reason why we have good irrigation, uninterrupted electricity, TV pictures that are almost indistinguishable from real life and cars that almost drive themselves..... Trust me, it ain't socialism, Marxism or communism. "Brilliant minds", What, opportunists that made their money off the back of the tech world, Coffee chains, mail order. These people arnt all engineers & inventors. Making money doesn't make you a brilliant mind, superior to others or independent of the tax system. As for TVs that are indistinguishable from real life, I can tell the difference... This is how "brilliant minds" thinks the 'sweat' that produced their fortune should be rewarded metro.co.uk/2017/11/12/james-dyson-wants-to-make-it-easier-to-hire-and-fire-people-7073226/
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 16:07:27 GMT
"Brilliant minds", What, opportunists that made their money off the back of the tech world, Coffee chains, mail order. These people arnt all engineers & inventors. Making money doesn't make you a brilliant mind, superior to others or independent of the tax system. As for TVs that are indistinguishable from real life, I can tell the difference... This is how "brilliant minds" thinks the 'sweat' that produced their fortune should be rewarded metro.co.uk/2017/11/12/james-dyson-wants-to-make-it-easier-to-hire-and-fire-people-7073226/Firstly, James Dyson is a hypocrite and an arse.... But secondly, James Dyson 'produced' his fortune by engineering a solution that absolutely pissed over all the competition. The fact that James Dyson thinks it should be easier to sack the 'sweat' that manufactured the product that produced fortune is once again a political issue. Not all billionaires are total shithouses. Bill Gates operates the largest transparent charity in the world. His legacy will not be in computing, but in the huge amounts of disease research his money has funded. Don't let facts get in the way of a good agenda though
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2018 16:20:29 GMT
Firstly, James Dyson is a hypocrite and an arse.... But secondly, James Dyson 'produced' his fortune by engineering a solution that absolutely pissed over all the competition. The fact that James Dyson thinks it should be easier to sack the 'sweat' that manufactured the product that produced fortune is once again a political issue. Not all billionaires are total shithouses. Bill Gates operates the largest transparent charity in the world. His legacy will not be in computing, but in the huge amounts of disease research his money has funded. Don't let facts get in the way of a good agenda though The convicted monopolist, Bill Gates, MH?
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 16:34:28 GMT
Firstly, James Dyson is a hypocrite and an arse.... But secondly, James Dyson 'produced' his fortune by engineering a solution that absolutely pissed over all the competition. The fact that James Dyson thinks it should be easier to sack the 'sweat' that manufactured the product that produced fortune is once again a political issue. Not all billionaires are total shithouses. Bill Gates operates the largest transparent charity in the world. His legacy will not be in computing, but in the huge amounts of disease research his money has funded. Don't let facts get in the way of a good agenda though The convicted monopolist, Bill Gates, MH? Yes, and also one of the biggest contributors to charity ever. Although I only know a little bit about the anti trust suit that you are referring to, it really depends which way you look at it. Even so, you're not actually responding to my valid points, are you? If we want to go tit for tat, we'll start talking about Venezuela shall we? You ever eaten dog food mixed with human excrement? Anti socialist Venezuelans have Lovely lot those socialists though.... Not evil like capitalist Bill.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2018 16:55:16 GMT
The convicted monopolist, Bill Gates, MH? Yes, and also one of the biggest contributors to charity ever. Although I only know a little bit about the anti trust suit that you are referring to, it really depends which way you look at it. Even so, you're not actually responding to my valid points, are you? If we want to go tit for tat, we'll start talking about Venezuela shall we? You ever eaten dog food mixed with human excrement? Anti socialist Venezuelans have Lovely lot those socialists though.... Not evil like capitalist Bill. This a heart warming story of the tyranny of Capitalism www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tuc-150th-anniversary-dockers-sacked-13192463
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 17:23:09 GMT
Yes, and also one of the biggest contributors to charity ever. Although I only know a little bit about the anti trust suit that you are referring to, it really depends which way you look at it. Even so, you're not actually responding to my valid points, are you? If we want to go tit for tat, we'll start talking about Venezuela shall we? You ever eaten dog food mixed with human excrement? Anti socialist Venezuelans have Lovely lot those socialists though.... Not evil like capitalist Bill. This a heart warming story of the tyranny of Capitalism www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tuc-150th-anniversary-dockers-sacked-13192463Absolutely awful (although still a better option than eating human shit for dinner everyday). The thing is, you're clearly missing the fact that I am aware capitalism is a flawed system. It's nowhere near perfect, and we should thank our ancestors who allowed it to become so monopolized instead of ensuring the correct amount of wealth is redistributed. As I routinely remind this EE section... I openly vote Labour, I'm not even close to a Tory fuckstick. I can see a bad idea when it jumps out though. The hard left on the other hand believe Marxism, Communism, Socialism (etc) is the perfect solution to all the problems we currently face (social, economic, etc). We'll all link arms and dance around in a circle once capitalism is crushed. History has proven that isn't the case. Each time communism has been implemented in full, it has always been corrupted and subsequently enforced with aggression and hostility. I always find it strange how so many supporters of communism and the like are the kind of people who would actually suffer under it. Capitalism may stink but it allows people the opportunity to work hard and make something of themselves; saying that doesn't make me right wing either.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 5, 2018 17:47:28 GMT
"Brilliant minds", What, opportunists that made their money off the back of the tech world, Coffee chains, mail order. These people arnt all engineers & inventors. Making money doesn't make you a brilliant mind, superior to others or independent of the tax system. As for TVs that are indistinguishable from real life, I can tell the difference... You are conflating two different issues. Capitalism doesn't intrinsically result in tax dodging. Effective taxation is a government issue and the fact that successive governments have failed to effectively tax huge global corporations is nonpartisan. You might call them opportunists but there is a reason why McDonalds is the biggest fast food chain the world. It's not ideal but in a dog eat dog world, they essentially beat the competition by being cleaner, cheaper and (questionably) better. Brilliant minds like Tim Berners Lee.... Is he an opportunist? No, he invented the platform we are using to have this discussion. Is he a millionaire? I suspect so..... Should he be heavily penalised because he's smarter than some unemployed scrote who thinks it's ok to steal a pair of wrought iron gates from the side of my house to pay for his pint of Fosters? No. I don't think he should. He should pay his fair share of tax and I hope he does. If we do ever adopt socialism or communism, expect technological advancement to grind to a halt as the most intelligent minds in the world decide to fuck off university and work in the socialist equivalent of Argos. Why dedicate your life to something for no reward? We're not all altruists. Some of us actually want a better life than a rundown 2 up 2 down council house. Sorry for that. Well that was long winded...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2018 17:52:42 GMT
Absolutely awful (although still a better option than eating human shit for dinner everyday). The thing is, you're clearly missing the fact that I am aware capitalism is a flawed system. It's nowhere near perfect, and we should thank our ancestors who allowed it to become so monopolized instead of ensuring the correct amount of wealth is redistributed. As I routinely remind this EE section... I openly vote Labour, I'm not even close to a Tory fuckstick. I can see a bad idea when it jumps out though. The hard left on the other hand believe Marxism, Communism, Socialism (etc) is the perfect solution to all the problems we currently face (social, economic, etc). We'll all link arms and dance around in a circle once capitalism is crushed. History has proven that isn't the case. Each time communism has been implemented in full, it has always been corrupted and subsequently enforced with aggression and hostility. I always find it strange how so many supporters of communism and the like are the kind of people who would actually suffer under it. Capitalism may stink but it allows people the opportunity to work hard and make something of themselves; saying that doesn't make me right wing either. Capitalism is just as corrupt as Socialism in its extremes can be though. Children in Britain go to work malnourished, food banks are mainstream, people forgo basic human and workers rights to enable the system and it's architects to flourish and whilst it is rarely upheld by the gun, it is upheld by control of information, lies, corruption and fear. The destruction of community and the elimination of the right to congreagate and act collectively are the killing fields of Capitalism. No wonder they're shit scared of Jeremy and a bit of parity coming back to interrupt their self proclaimed victory.
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 18:03:56 GMT
You are conflating two different issues. Capitalism doesn't intrinsically result in tax dodging. Effective taxation is a government issue and the fact that successive governments have failed to effectively tax huge global corporations is nonpartisan. You might call them opportunists but there is a reason why McDonalds is the biggest fast food chain the world. It's not ideal but in a dog eat dog world, they essentially beat the competition by being cleaner, cheaper and (questionably) better. Brilliant minds like Tim Berners Lee.... Is he an opportunist? No, he invented the platform we are using to have this discussion. Is he a millionaire? I suspect so..... Should he be heavily penalised because he's smarter than some unemployed scrote who thinks it's ok to steal a pair of wrought iron gates from the side of my house to pay for his pint of Fosters? No. I don't think he should. He should pay his fair share of tax and I hope he does. If we do ever adopt socialism or communism, expect technological advancement to grind to a halt as the most intelligent minds in the world decide to fuck off university and work in the socialist equivalent of Argos. Why dedicate your life to something for no reward? We're not all altruists. Some of us actually want a better life than a rundown 2 up 2 down council house. Sorry for that. Well that was long winded... Fucking brilliant comeback. I genuinely thought you were smarter than that.
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Post by metalhead on Sept 5, 2018 18:09:32 GMT
Absolutely awful (although still a better option than eating human shit for dinner everyday). The thing is, you're clearly missing the fact that I am aware capitalism is a flawed system. It's nowhere near perfect, and we should thank our ancestors who allowed it to become so monopolized instead of ensuring the correct amount of wealth is redistributed. As I routinely remind this EE section... I openly vote Labour, I'm not even close to a Tory fuckstick. I can see a bad idea when it jumps out though. The hard left on the other hand believe Marxism, Communism, Socialism (etc) is the perfect solution to all the problems we currently face (social, economic, etc). We'll all link arms and dance around in a circle once capitalism is crushed. History has proven that isn't the case. Each time communism has been implemented in full, it has always been corrupted and subsequently enforced with aggression and hostility. I always find it strange how so many supporters of communism and the like are the kind of people who would actually suffer under it. Capitalism may stink but it allows people the opportunity to work hard and make something of themselves; saying that doesn't make me right wing either. Capitalism is just as corrupt as Socialism in its extremes can be though. Children in Britain go to work malnourished, food banks are mainstream, people forgo basic human and workers rights to enable the system and it's architects to flourish and whilst it is rarely upheld by the gun, it is upheld by control of information, lies, corruption and fear. The destruction of community and the elimination of the right to congreagate and act collectively are the killing fields of Capitalism. No wonder they're shit scared of Jeremy and a bit of parity coming back to interrupt their self proclaimed victory. Once again though, it's not capitalism but the implementation of capitalism that is the issue here. Just an example of a terrible capitalist idea.... Zero hour contracts. A completely horrific idea that has flourished under the Tory government. It's not the concept of capitalism that is the issue, rather the totally shithouse behaviour of large companies and the government that have allowed zero hour contracts to become mainstream. Hopefully one day, that will change. I vote Labour and I believe (to some degree) in Corbyn, but I don't believe for a second the right are remotely scared of Jeremy Corbyn. Just my opinion though...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 18:54:23 GMT
I used to be an ideologically if not politically invested socialist but as I have aged I've re-evaluated this stance and listening to liberal intellectuals like Jordan Peterson I've turned my back on it.
Particularly I'm losing faith in the Marxist ideology that I encountered at university due to its grouping of individuals into a helpless (proletariat) victomhood, oppressed by the bourgeoisie and using this as a tool to explain social outcomes.
Jordan Peterson puts it so much better than I:
Capitalism is desperately unfair but then again so is life. If we could have a capitalist society with a conscience then things would be much better. I'm a big fan of the citizens income
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 5, 2018 19:52:59 GMT
Well that was long winded... Fucking brilliant comeback. I genuinely thought you were smarter than that. Woosh! I'm Brilliant YouthXx
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Post by felonious on Sept 6, 2018 6:12:26 GMT
See Justin Welbey is asking for greater taxation in support of a redistribution of wealth. We’ve gone so far down the of the demonisation of taxation that it’s become a dirty word. If people make great wealth from the infrastructures of society & our of the pockets/off the backs of those who live in it, why shouldn’t they pay for the privilege of amassing a fortune. There are arguments for and against this. You are right that people making an absolute fortune should redistribute some of their wealth, but at the same time, you are suggesting that we penalize intelligent or hard working people who are driven and make a success of themselves. Part of the reason we often see such rapid technological advances is because brilliant minds think of things not thought of before, design and develop them and subsequently reap the rewards afterwards. No doubt many fail though despite dedicating their lives to it. Some of the worlds most famous inventors died in poverty as they were unable to cash in on their revolutionary ideas. How about we penalize those brilliant minds for coming up with something that changed our lives (usually for the good)..... Let's make it so there's no motivation to do it? Why bother eh? You might be a brilliant mind but you are 'morally' obligated to earn the same as someone working in Tesco because that's fair. Fuck it, why bother? I'll just work in Tesco, save the stress of trying.... If we redistributed wealth in the way some hard left believe we should, we would probably still be riding penny farthings to work. Capitalism may be an awful system, but there's a reason why we have good irrigation, uninterrupted electricity, TV pictures that are almost indistinguishable from real life and cars that almost drive themselves..... Trust me, it ain't socialism, Marxism or communism. I think it needs to be added that people are often remortgaging their homes to get a business/idea off the ground or guaranteeing a bank loan/overdraft to do the same. Risk v reward.
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Post by partickpotter on Sept 6, 2018 6:25:32 GMT
Absolutely awful (although still a better option than eating human shit for dinner everyday). The thing is, you're clearly missing the fact that I am aware capitalism is a flawed system. It's nowhere near perfect, and we should thank our ancestors who allowed it to become so monopolized instead of ensuring the correct amount of wealth is redistributed. As I routinely remind this EE section... I openly vote Labour, I'm not even close to a Tory fuckstick. I can see a bad idea when it jumps out though. The hard left on the other hand believe Marxism, Communism, Socialism (etc) is the perfect solution to all the problems we currently face (social, economic, etc). We'll all link arms and dance around in a circle once capitalism is crushed. History has proven that isn't the case. Each time communism has been implemented in full, it has always been corrupted and subsequently enforced with aggression and hostility. I always find it strange how so many supporters of communism and the like are the kind of people who would actually suffer under it. Capitalism may stink but it allows people the opportunity to work hard and make something of themselves; saying that doesn't make me right wing either. Capitalism is just as corrupt as Socialism in its extremes can be though. Children in Britain go to work malnourished, food banks are mainstream, people forgo basic human and workers rights to enable the system and it's architects to flourish and whilst it is rarely upheld by the gun, it is upheld by control of information, lies, corruption and fear. The destruction of community and the elimination of the right to congreagate and act collectively are the killing fields of Capitalism. No wonder they're shit scared of Jeremy and a bit of parity coming back to interrupt their self proclaimed victory. Capitalism can have disastrous consequences. No doubt about that. But there is the possibility to address those ills through government action - legislation, policy, courts etc... The problem with socialism is there are no checks and balances because the government controls everything. This is the intrinsic failing of socialism.
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Post by bathstoke on Sept 6, 2018 7:22:48 GMT
Capitalism is just as corrupt as Socialism in its extremes can be though. Children in Britain go to work malnourished, food banks are mainstream, people forgo basic human and workers rights to enable the system and it's architects to flourish and whilst it is rarely upheld by the gun, it is upheld by control of information, lies, corruption and fear. The destruction of community and the elimination of the right to congreagate and act collectively are the killing fields of Capitalism. No wonder they're shit scared of Jeremy and a bit of parity coming back to interrupt their self proclaimed victory. Capitalism can have disastrous consequences. No doubt about that. But there is the possibility to address those ills through government action - legislation, policy, courts etc... The problem with socialism is there are no checks and balances because the government controls everything. This is the intrinsic failing of socialism. Corruption eh, Why hasn't any senior manager ever been sanctioned for corporate manslaughter over flouting the Duty of Care law...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 6, 2018 8:46:49 GMT
Capitalism is just as corrupt as Socialism in its extremes can be though. Children in Britain go to work malnourished, food banks are mainstream, people forgo basic human and workers rights to enable the system and it's architects to flourish and whilst it is rarely upheld by the gun, it is upheld by control of information, lies, corruption and fear. The destruction of community and the elimination of the right to congreagate and act collectively are the killing fields of Capitalism. No wonder they're shit scared of Jeremy and a bit of parity coming back to interrupt their self proclaimed victory. Capitalism can have disastrous consequences. No doubt about that. But there is the possibility to address those ills through government action - legislation, policy, courts etc... The problem with socialism is there are no checks and balances because the government controls everything. This is the intrinsic failing of socialism. Problem is Partick, a lot of the issues around Grenfell prove that Capitalism often wont legislate, often wont pay and often doesn't care about anything above profits.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 9:04:46 GMT
Capitalism and socialism have Good points and bad points
Unfortunately it's human nature that creates the bad points in both
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Post by musik on Sept 6, 2018 9:33:00 GMT
Just to make 2 things clear:
There is no "-ism" that is perfect for every individual.
There is no "-ism" that has as a goal 'everybody should get the same'. Noone.
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Post by metalhead on Sept 6, 2018 10:02:27 GMT
Capitalism can have disastrous consequences. No doubt about that. But there is the possibility to address those ills through government action - legislation, policy, courts etc... The problem with socialism is there are no checks and balances because the government controls everything. This is the intrinsic failing of socialism. Problem is Partick, a lot of the issues around Grenfell prove that Capitalism often wont legislate, often wont pay and often doesn't care about anything above profits. Capitalism isn't a government. Capitalism doesn't legislate. Governments legislate. The fact people were burned to death at GF is a failure of government, local authorities, the private/public sector etc. Capitalism enforced with legislation is the key. Companies will always look for methods of cutting costs, but that doesn't mean that the subsequent end result is dangerous to the public. In the case of GF, the cladding used was already known to be dangerous. It just needed banning and a law that ensures it didn't make its way onto a building. The Soviet Union manufactured cars in the 80s... Were they a haven of safety and luxury compared to their capitalist competitors? No, they were a pile of unreliable uncomfortable shit. The FSO Polonez vs MK2 Golf, I rest my case....
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 6, 2018 10:16:10 GMT
Problem is Partick, a lot of the issues around Grenfell prove that Capitalism often wont legislate, often wont pay and often doesn't care about anything above profits. Capitalism isn't a government. Capitalism doesn't legislate. Governments legislate. The fact people were burned to death at GF is a failure of government, local authorities, the private/public sector etc. Capitalism enforced with legislation is the key. Companies will always look for methods of cutting costs, but that doesn't mean that the subsequent end result is dangerous to the public. In the case of GF, the cladding used was already known to be dangerous. It just needed banning and a law that ensures it didn't make its way onto a building. The Soviet Union manufactured cars in the 80s... Were they a haven of safety and luxury compared to their capitalist competitors? No, they were a pile of unreliable uncomfortable shit. The FSO Polonez vs MK2 Golf, I rest my case.... The point being that Capitalism itself is now more powerful than Governments or has so much influence over them it often refuses to be legislated, refuses to have a conscience. Look at how quickly Bankers remuneration not only returned to pre crash levels but rapidly surpassed them. Casino banking still exists and all the time Capitalism points over there and blames weak people and cries benefits cheats. Don't believe me, these are the headlines we saw in the aftermath of the crash, selling us the reasons for austerity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 10:41:00 GMT
I'd just like to end this discussion now by informing you all that there's no doubt whatsoever that capitalism makes everyone better off. It suffers from peaks and troughs and needs to be managed properly but it is the only game in town.
Socialism is the natural home for the envious, bone idle fucksticks who like the idea of getting more for doing less and those who don't want to see hard work, risk and brains getting a reward.
You know that capitalism is working and that the poor and feckless are getting more than enough to live on when the word 'equality' is banded about. The term equality is used by socialists to hide their real aim which is to enjoy life with more of other people's money. There'll never be the equality that socialists pander for because they fail to understand that we're not equal and that there's a layer of society that fails to contribute despite being given the services and tools to do so.
The funny thing is that the Corbyn supporting loons out there think that him and his party are real socialists but fail to understand that if he ever gained power he'd be more reliant than anyone on the capitalist system providing the massive tax income he'd need to fund his populist giveaways.
Socialism is the natural home of the left wing fool.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 10:45:11 GMT
Capitalism isn't a government. Capitalism doesn't legislate. Governments legislate. The fact people were burned to death at GF is a failure of government, local authorities, the private/public sector etc. Capitalism enforced with legislation is the key. Companies will always look for methods of cutting costs, but that doesn't mean that the subsequent end result is dangerous to the public. In the case of GF, the cladding used was already known to be dangerous. It just needed banning and a law that ensures it didn't make its way onto a building. The Soviet Union manufactured cars in the 80s... Were they a haven of safety and luxury compared to their capitalist competitors? No, they were a pile of unreliable uncomfortable shit. The FSO Polonez vs MK2 Golf, I rest my case.... The point being that Capitalism itself is now more powerful than Governments or has so much influence over them it often refuses to be legislated, refuses to have a conscience. Look at how quickly Bankers remuneration not only returned to pre crash levels but rapidly surpassed them. Casino banking still exists and all the time Capitalism points over there and blames weak people and cries benefits cheats. Don't believe me, these are the headlines we saw in the aftermath of the crash, selling us the reasons for austerity. The reason for austerity was down to New Labour spending more than they could afford during one of the longest periods of economic growth in living memory. The 2008 crash resulted in a massive drop in tax income so the Tories had to bring spending down to manageable and affordable levels. The fact that we've lost over 1 million public sector jobs since 2008 and aren't eating off the streets is proof of Labour's economic mismanagement. They couldn't afford to pay these people without borrowing during the good times so what chance did the Tories have. It's never been austerity - it's simply making the best of what we can afford.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 6, 2018 10:51:25 GMT
I'd just like to end this discussion now by informing you all that there's no doubt whatsoever that capitalism makes everyone better off. It suffers from peaks and troughs and needs to be managed properly but it is the only game in town. Socialism is the natural home for the envious, bone idle fucksticks who like the idea of getting more for doing less and those who don't want to see hard work, risk and brains getting a reward. You know that capitalism is working and that the poor and feckless are getting more than enough to live on when the word 'equality' is banded about. The term equality is used by socialists to hide their real aim which is to enjoy life with more of other people's money. There'll never be the equality that socialists pander for because they fail to understand that we're not equal and that there's a layer of society that fails to contribute despite being given the services and tools to do so. The funny thing is that the Corbyn supporting loons out there think that him and his party are real socialists but fail to understand that if he ever gained power he'd be more reliant than anyone on the capitalist system providing the massive tax income he'd need to fund his populist giveaways. Socialism is the natural home of the left wing fool. And this is the problem with Capitalists. No empathy, no conscience, no sense of community, greedy, pernicious, empty. Morally bankrupt.
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Post by harryburrows on Sept 6, 2018 10:54:07 GMT
"Brilliant minds", What, opportunists that made their money off the back of the tech world, Coffee chains, mail order. These people arnt all engineers & inventors. Making money doesn't make you a brilliant mind, superior to others or independent of the tax system. As for TVs that are indistinguishable from real life, I can tell the difference... You are conflating two different issues. Capitalism doesn't intrinsically result in tax dodging. Effective taxation is a government issue and the fact that successive governments have failed to effectively tax huge global corporations is nonpartisan. You might call them opportunists but there is a reason why McDonalds is the biggest fast food chain the world. It's not ideal but in a dog eat dog world, they essentially beat the competition by being cleaner, cheaper and (questionably) better. Brilliant minds like Tim Berners Lee.... Is he an opportunist? No, he invented the platform we are using to have this discussion. Is he a millionaire? I suspect so..... Should he be heavily penalised because he's smarter than some unemployed scrote who thinks it's ok to steal a pair of wrought iron gates from the side of my house to pay for his pint of Fosters? No. I don't think he should. He should pay his fair share of tax and I hope he does. If we do ever adopt socialism or communism, expect technological advancement to grind to a halt as the most intelligent minds in the world decide to fuck off university and work in the socialist equivalent of Argos. Why dedicate your life to something for no reward? We're not all altruists. Some of us actually want a better life than a rundown 2 up 2 down council house. Sorry for that. I think there is a lot of misinformation posted about capitalism, fundamentally capitalism is a system of commercial activity within a nation state controlled by private individuals rather than the state itself . I ran a small business successfully for 21 years , I employed 4 people , paid them well in exchange for their hard work and responsible attitude. I paid lots of tax NI ,business rates , vat etc thereby contributed a lot of money into the treasury to pay for government spending. The vast majority of capitalism is conducted on this basis . Using firms such as amazon , Starbucks , google etc as an argument against the system is ludicrous. These American corporations are not the benchmark for capitalism
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Post by harryburrows on Sept 6, 2018 10:55:56 GMT
I'd just like to end this discussion now by informing you all that there's no doubt whatsoever that capitalism makes everyone better off. It suffers from peaks and troughs and needs to be managed properly but it is the only game in town. Socialism is the natural home for the envious, bone idle fucksticks who like the idea of getting more for doing less and those who don't want to see hard work, risk and brains getting a reward. You know that capitalism is working and that the poor and feckless are getting more than enough to live on when the word 'equality' is banded about. The term equality is used by socialists to hide their real aim which is to enjoy life with more of other people's money. There'll never be the equality that socialists pander for because they fail to understand that we're not equal and that there's a layer of society that fails to contribute despite being given the services and tools to do so. The funny thing is that the Corbyn supporting loons out there think that him and his party are real socialists but fail to understand that if he ever gained power he'd be more reliant than anyone on the capitalist system providing the massive tax income he'd need to fund his populist giveaways. Socialism is the natural home of the left wing fool. And this is the problem with Capitalists. No empathy, no conscience, no sense of community, greedy, pernicious, empty. Morally bankrupt. Depends on your definition of capitalism momo .
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 6, 2018 10:59:49 GMT
The point being that Capitalism itself is now more powerful than Governments or has so much influence over them it often refuses to be legislated, refuses to have a conscience. Look at how quickly Bankers remuneration not only returned to pre crash levels but rapidly surpassed them. Casino banking still exists and all the time Capitalism points over there and blames weak people and cries benefits cheats. Don't believe me, these are the headlines we saw in the aftermath of the crash, selling us the reasons for austerity. The reason for austerity was down to New Labour spending more than they could afford during one of the longest periods of economic growth in living memory. The 2008 crash resulted in a massive drop in tax income so the Tories had to bring spending down to manageable and affordable levels. The fact that we've lost over 1 million public sector jobs since 2008 and aren't eating off the streets is proof of Labour's economic mismanagement. They couldn't afford to pay these people without borrowing during the good times so what chance did the Tories have. It's never been austerity - it's simply making the best of what we can afford. Capitalism certainly wreaks some ‘interesting’ revenge. Problem - A global financial collapse caused by the greed of the poorly regulated and morally dubious financial sector Solution – Close the Sure Start up Meir
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