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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 15:08:00 GMT
The majority of people don’t give a fuck about censorship unless it’s “their side” being targeted by it. Right or left. So one side has been vocal because they perceive themselves to be a victim of it, and the other side has largely derided them for their concerns. I have different opinions about the government punishing speech, and a company deciding not to give you a platform to reach more people. IMO it's complicated though, we allow government censorship when it punishees false advertising, breaking contracts or lying in court. I think the anti-Musk side's been pretty consistently asking to censor e.g. propaganda from authoritarians, hateful stuff etc. Isn't that group generally still saying that? The musk side is that censorship is bad and free speech should reign. But based on Musk's actions that's a lie - he's increased the platform for groups like Nazis but actively suppresses groups that disagree with him or when anti-democratic leaders ask him to. I think that's the hypocrisy here. It's an impossible job with the rise of social media and only going to get worse. But obviously I agree that musk being some apparent free-speech absolutist, whilst overseeing a company that is acting in these ways, is hypocrisy and troubling to say the least. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on May 15, 2023 15:30:53 GMT
That’s bollocks like all social media it’s always been a right wing cesspit. I’ve always said you don’t have a right to freedom of speech, it’s simply not a thing. Highlighting someone who has harked on about free speech backing down to a political leader isn’t hypocrisy. What do you mean it's "not a thing" If you don't agree with him he means 🙄 |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 16:11:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 16:11:03 GMT
That’s bollocks like all social media it’s always been a right wing cesspit. I’ve always said you don’t have a right to freedom of speech, it’s simply not a thing. Highlighting someone who has harked on about free speech backing down to a political leader isn’t hypocrisy. What do you mean it's "not a thing" There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. |
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Post by PotterLog on May 15, 2023 16:49:58 GMT
What do you mean it's "not a thing" There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. I'm getting a memory that we argued about this on Twitter once  I don't think I got a satisfactory answer as to who you thought should be blessed with the responsibility (and power) of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable. And what "consequences" do you have in mind? Dangerous road to go down imo |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 16:55:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 16:55:34 GMT
There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. I'm getting a memory that we argued about this on Twitter once I don't think I got a satisfactory answer as to who you thought should be blessed with the responsibility (and power) of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable. And what "consequences" do you have in mind? Dangerous road to go down imo We did and I think society in person generally self regulates this. I think there are known rights and wrongs and sadly people online are getting away with more that is wrong. Speech has never been free. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on May 15, 2023 17:07:47 GMT
I'm getting a memory that we argued about this on Twitter once I don't think I got a satisfactory answer as to who you thought should be blessed with the responsibility (and power) of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable. And what "consequences" do you have in mind? Dangerous road to go down imo We did and I think society in person generally self regulates this. I think there are known rights and wrongs and sadly people online are getting away with more that is wrong. Speech has never been free. So free speech is not a human right? |
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Post by PotterLog on May 15, 2023 17:09:01 GMT
I'm getting a memory that we argued about this on Twitter once I don't think I got a satisfactory answer as to who you thought should be blessed with the responsibility (and power) of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable. And what "consequences" do you have in mind? Dangerous road to go down imo We did and I think society in person generally self regulates this. I think there are known rights and wrongs and sadly people online are getting away with more that is wrong. Speech has never been free. So speech isn't and shouldn't be free and there should be unspecified consequences for saying something "wrong", as determined by societal self-regulation.. all very vague and wide open to abuses by those in (and seeking) power. A solid commitment to free speech is the absolute bedrock of any open, pluralistic, democratic society, which I think the majority of us still want to live in. If some people find the speech offensive that's when the principle is even more important - in fact when you think about it, that's *only* when it's important. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:09:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 17:09:59 GMT
We did and I think society in person generally self regulates this. I think there are known rights and wrongs and sadly people online are getting away with more that is wrong. Speech has never been free. So free speech is not a human right? I don’t think it exists. We don’t have the freedom to say anything we want. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on May 15, 2023 17:11:01 GMT
We did and I think society in person generally self regulates this. I think there are known rights and wrongs and sadly people online are getting away with more that is wrong. Speech has never been free. So speech isn't and shouldn't be free and there should be unspecified consequences for saying something "wrong", as determined by societal self-regulation.. all very vague and wide open to abuses by those in (and seeking) power. A solid commitment to free speech is the absolute bedrock of any open, pluralistic, democratic society, which I think the majority of us still want to live in. If some people find the speech offensive that's when the principle is even more important - in fact when you think about it, that's *only* when it's important. I'd have never have picked somebody like Bayern to advocate for dictatorial behaviour. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:11:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 17:11:23 GMT
We did and I think society in person generally self regulates this. I think there are known rights and wrongs and sadly people online are getting away with more that is wrong. Speech has never been free. So speech isn't and shouldn't be free and there should be unspecified consequences for saying something "wrong", as determined by societal self-regulation.. all very vague and wide open to abuses by those in (and seeking) power. A solid commitment to free speech is the absolute bedrock of any open, pluralistic, democratic society, which I think the majority of us still want to live in. If some people find the speech offensive that's when the principle is even more important - in fact when you think about it, that's *only* when it's important. There’s never been such a thing though. Not in our time or centuries close. There’s always been consequences. That isn’t “freedom”. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:12:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 17:12:10 GMT
So speech isn't and shouldn't be free and there should be unspecified consequences for saying something "wrong", as determined by societal self-regulation.. all very vague and wide open to abuses by those in (and seeking) power. A solid commitment to free speech is the absolute bedrock of any open, pluralistic, democratic society, which I think the majority of us still want to live in. If some people find the speech offensive that's when the principle is even more important - in fact when you think about it, that's *only* when it's important. I'd have never have picked somebody like Bayern to advocate for dictatorial behaviour. Im not. It’s just how society is. There is no freedom to what we can we say. It’s a myth. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:12:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by iancransonsknees on May 15, 2023 17:12:44 GMT
So free speech is not a human right? I don’t think it exists. We don’t have the freedom to say anything we want. The UN and European conventions say it's a universal human right. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:14:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 17:14:22 GMT
I don’t think it exists. We don’t have the freedom to say anything we want. The UN and European conventions say it's a universal human right. The UN should be abolished but that’s a different thread the useless fuckers. I just find it a deluded notion that doesn’t exist. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:32:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by iancransonsknees on May 15, 2023 17:32:16 GMT
The UN and European conventions say it's a universal human right. The UN should be abolished but that’s a different thread the useless fuckers. I just find it a deluded notion that doesn’t exist. So you're opposed to a fundamental human right? |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:36:20 GMT
via mobile
Post by yeswilko on May 15, 2023 17:36:20 GMT
What do you mean it's "not a thing" There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. |
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Post by PotterLog on May 15, 2023 17:39:24 GMT
So speech isn't and shouldn't be free and there should be unspecified consequences for saying something "wrong", as determined by societal self-regulation.. all very vague and wide open to abuses by those in (and seeking) power. A solid commitment to free speech is the absolute bedrock of any open, pluralistic, democratic society, which I think the majority of us still want to live in. If some people find the speech offensive that's when the principle is even more important - in fact when you think about it, that's *only* when it's important. There’s never been such a thing though. Not in our time or centuries close. There’s always been consequences. That isn’t “freedom”. The consequences thing is a red herring .. anything anyone ever says has consequences or there’d be no point in saying it. That’s nothing to do with freedom of speech, which is the right to express your opinion publicly without state punishment, persecution or intervention. You’re right that we don’t fully have it in this country and we’re all the worse off for it. They do in the USA. |
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Post by PotterLog on May 15, 2023 17:42:32 GMT
There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. Things like targeted harassment and direct incitement to violence are crimes in their own right and also not really related to the concept of freedom of speech. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 17:46:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by mtrstudent on May 15, 2023 17:46:26 GMT
There’s never been such a thing though. Not in our time or centuries close. There’s always been consequences. That isn’t “freedom”. The consequences thing is a red herring .. anything anyone ever says has consequences or there’d be no point in saying it. That’s nothing to do with freedom of speech, which is the right to express your opinion publicly without state punishment, persecution or intervention. You’re right that we don’t fully have it in this country and we’re all the worse off for it. They do in the USA. I don't really understand where the lines are drawn but there seem to be bits where the government can give you a spanking. E.g. the courts will force you to pay fines for lying in contracts. You can even see prison time if you rip off rich people or lie to investigators. That's the government punishing you for stuff you say! |
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Post by yeswilko on May 15, 2023 17:49:17 GMT
I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. Things like targeted harassment and direct incitement to violence are crimes in their own right and also not really related to the concept of freedom of speech. Calling someone whatever you want to isn't related to freedom of speech? Seems like it is. |
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Post by PotterLog on May 15, 2023 17:59:21 GMT
Things like targeted harassment and direct incitement to violence are crimes in their own right and also not really related to the concept of freedom of speech. Calling someone whatever you want to isn't related to freedom of speech? Seems like it is. Targeted harassment isn’t the same as “calling someone whatever you want”, but actually no, it’s not really related to freedom of speech as a concept - it’s (rightly) illegal to defame somebody, for instance. That’s really not what free speech is about, although admittedly there are lines to be blurred (and it’s in the interests of authoritarians and demagogues to blur them) |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 18:28:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by yeswilko on May 15, 2023 18:28:43 GMT
Calling someone whatever you want to isn't related to freedom of speech? Seems like it is. Targeted harassment isn’t the same as “calling someone whatever you want”, but actually no, it’s not really related to freedom of speech as a concept - it’s (rightly) illegal to defame somebody, for instance. That’s really not what free speech is about, although admittedly there are lines to be blurred (and it’s in the interests of authoritarians and demagogues to blur them) I'd say my initial post most definitely is a case of targeted harassment. Does that not apply to the police in America then? |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 18:47:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by PotterLog on May 15, 2023 18:47:48 GMT
Targeted harassment isn’t the same as “calling someone whatever you want”, but actually no, it’s not really related to freedom of speech as a concept - it’s (rightly) illegal to defame somebody, for instance. That’s really not what free speech is about, although admittedly there are lines to be blurred (and it’s in the interests of authoritarians and demagogues to blur them) I'd say my initial post most definitely is a case of targeted harassment. Does that not apply to the police in America then? No idea about your clip mate, nor what the consequences were. I was just pointing out there are generally separate laws about these things |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 18:51:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on May 15, 2023 18:51:17 GMT
There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. You’re right. Abuse is simply not acceptable however there’s plenty on here who use abusive language when talking about politicians, celebrities, Royals or footballers. Should it only be deemed unacceptable if there’s a hate element or across the board? Maybe I’m a bit old fashioned but I don’t like swearing whoever it’s targeted at but it is more offensive or hurtful if it’s targeted because of the way someone looks. In relation to free speech it’s fine by me as people need to have a voice people just need to be willing to listen without shouting someone down or getting personal. Please don’t take this as a dig as it’s not directed at any one specifically. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 18:56:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by fullmetaljacket on May 15, 2023 18:56:45 GMT
So speech isn't and shouldn't be free and there should be unspecified consequences for saying something "wrong", as determined by societal self-regulation.. all very vague and wide open to abuses by those in (and seeking) power. A solid commitment to free speech is the absolute bedrock of any open, pluralistic, democratic society, which I think the majority of us still want to live in. If some people find the speech offensive that's when the principle is even more important - in fact when you think about it, that's *only* when it's important. I'd have never have picked somebody like Bayern to advocate for dictatorial behaviour. 🤣🤣 |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on May 15, 2023 19:07:03 GMT
I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. You’re right. Abuse is simply not acceptable however there’s plenty on here who use abusive language when talking about politicians, celebrities, Royals or footballers. Should it only be deemed unacceptable if there’s a hate element or across the board? Maybe I’m a bit old fashioned but I don’t like swearing whoever it’s targeted at but it is more offensive or hurtful if it’s targeted because of the way someone looks. In relation to free speech it’s fine by me as people need to have a voice people just need to be willing to listen without shouting someone down or getting personal. Please don’t take this as a dig as it’s not directed at any one specifically. You only have to look at “the government shambles” and “Brexit” thread to see the level of “behind a keyboard” abuse which goes on in social media |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 19:30:46 GMT
People should have the “right” to say whatever they want. When that person says something that is wrong, others should also have the “right” to call them out. When they say something that breaks the law, the justice system should have the “right” to get involved.
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 19:32:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 19:32:52 GMT
The UN should be abolished but that’s a different thread the useless fuckers. I just find it a deluded notion that doesn’t exist. So you're opposed to a fundamental human right? No. I don’t think it’s exists. Two different things. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 19:33:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 19:33:48 GMT
There’s no such thing as freedom of speech and nor should there be. You (the royal you) say something racist and there should be consequences etc. That isn’t “freedom”. And people shouldn’t be saying that sort of stuff. I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. Yeah they should be jailed. |
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elon musk
May 15, 2023 19:35:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on May 15, 2023 19:35:14 GMT
There’s never been such a thing though. Not in our time or centuries close. There’s always been consequences. That isn’t “freedom”. The consequences thing is a red herring .. anything anyone ever says has consequences or there’d be no point in saying it. That’s nothing to do with freedom of speech, which is the right to express your opinion publicly without state punishment, persecution or intervention. You’re right that we don’t fully have it in this country and we’re all the worse off for it. They do in the USA. Are we? People shouldn’t have that right in the slightest imo. You should not be allowed to be racist etc in public and have no consequences. |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on May 15, 2023 19:35:19 GMT
I saw a video recently of an American rightwing streamer type who was being given a ticket for a driving offence and was screaming at the police officer that his name sounded Jewish and went on to give this cop the most horrific abuse to his face you could imagine. Absolutely vile, but the cop just stood there and took it. Seen similar vids with black officers being called Ni**er etc to their face. I reckon most people would say that should carry some sort of punishment.. Yeah they should be jailed. Imagine if everyone who verbally abused someone went to prison. Jesus. Total hyperbole as usual |
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I don't think I got a satisfactory answer as to who you thought should be blessed with the responsibility (and power) of deciding what is and what isn't acceptable. And what "consequences" do you have in mind?
