|
Post by banksisgod on May 27, 2018 11:22:52 GMT
That's a fair point. But I was referring to the poster who used an image of McClean with McGuinness as proof of some affiliation to, or sympathy for, the IRA.
I wonder how many on here, or elsewhere, who are repulsed by the notion of a footballer turning his back on the British Anthem, also happen to have the Pistol's version of "God Save the Queen" in their collection?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 11:24:43 GMT
I haven't read the five pages and realise there's polarised views, but if we keep Badou we don't need him. Hell if we keep Gcam we don't need him.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 11:48:15 GMT
So, do you simply not sing the National Anthem, or do you overtly turn your back on it? Don’t sing why would I disrespect it I’m a patriotic Englishman. It’s a constitutional objection. It’s a view just like I think we should have a new secular constitution that prevents any religion breeding itself into a majority and forcing religion down people’s throats in a country where more people identify themselves as nil religion than any single religious denomination. Fuck religions, all of them. And herein lies the difference between yourself and McClean. You choose to be covert in your actions, which, I believe, everyone respects (or should) whereas McClean goes out of his way to show his feelings.
|
|
|
Post by pottercelt67 on May 27, 2018 11:52:08 GMT
For what it's worth, there are many photographs of Martin McGuinness with the Queen and Prince Philip. Does that make them Provo sympathisers deserving of your bile? McClean comes from a city more associated with socialism, and the pursuit of equality, rather than with radical republicanism per se. It is in this context that the peaceful protest march on what is now called "Bloody Sunday" was organised - the duel objective being civil rights for Catholics and the removal of internment (the summery jailing of people without trial). There was a suspicion that the march was infiltrated by the provo's - certainly that was the excuse given by the army for opening fire - but that has never been proven. Nothing justified the execution of innocent marchers by the British Army on that day. The Widgery Tribunal, which was conducted with indecent haste, was a whitewash, and it was the Saville Enquiry that resulted in the full facts being established, and an official apology for the behaviour of the army being given by David Cameron from the floor of the Commons. Think about it. British soldiers shooting dead un-armed British citizens, catholic families protesting for the right to not be evicted from their own homes in favour of a pregnant protestant girl. That's something you would more associate with Tiannamon Square or Gaza. Some people will never accept a James McClean at the club. That's fair enough, but at least equip yourselves with a few more facts before dismissing him as some random "provo lover". Absolutely spot on, civilians shot dead by the forces who were supposedly sent in to protect them from a Protestant Loyalist Apartheid. I can’t actually believe people can deny him his view. Every person on this board would feel the same way!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 11:58:59 GMT
For what it's worth, there are many photographs of Martin McGuinness with the Queen and Prince Philip. Does that make them Provo sympathisers deserving of your bile? McClean comes from a city more associated with socialism, and the pursuit of equality, rather than with radical republicanism per se. It is in this context that the peaceful protest march on what is now called "Bloody Sunday" was organised - the duel objective being civil rights for Catholics and the removal of internment (the summery jailing of people without trial). There was a suspicion that the march was infiltrated by the provo's - certainly that was the excuse given by the army for opening fire - but that has never been proven. Nothing justified the execution of innocent marchers by the British Army on that day. The Widgery Tribunal, which was conducted with indecent haste, was a whitewash, and it was the Saville Enquiry that resulted in the full facts being established, and an official apology for the behaviour of the army being given by David Cameron from the floor of the Commons. Think about it. British soldiers shooting dead un-armed British citizens, catholic families protesting for the right to not be evicted from their own homes in favour of a pregnant protestant girl. That's something you would more associate with Tiannamon Square or Gaza. Some people will never accept a James McClean at the club. That's fair enough, but at least equip yourselves with a few more facts before dismissing him as some random "provo lover". Absolutely spot on, civilians shot dead by the forces who were supposedly sent in to protect them from a Protestant Loyalist Apartheid. I can’t actually believe people can deny him his view. Every person on this board would feel the same way! You absolutely right, he is entitled to his views, and entitled to display them however he wants. Is it not somewhat hypocritical though to ply your trade in a country that you have so much hatred, or so many feelings of hurt? Personally, if it was me, I wouldn’t step foot in the country, I’d prefer to play football elsewhere. McClean must be a better man than me if he can compartmentalise wealth, fame and fortune from his daily hurt of his deep rooted beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 11:59:53 GMT
For what it's worth, there are many photographs of Martin McGuinness with the Queen and Prince Philip. Does that make them Provo sympathisers deserving of your bile? McClean comes from a city more associated with socialism, and the pursuit of equality, rather than with radical republicanism per se. It is in this context that the peaceful protest march on what is now called "Bloody Sunday" was organised - the duel objective being civil rights for Catholics and the removal of internment (the summery jailing of people without trial). There was a suspicion that the march was infiltrated by the provo's - certainly that was the excuse given by the army for opening fire - but that has never been proven. Nothing justified the execution of innocent marchers by the British Army on that day. The Widgery Tribunal, which was conducted with indecent haste, was a whitewash, and it was the Saville Enquiry that resulted in the full facts being established, and an official apology for the behaviour of the army being given by David Cameron from the floor of the Commons. Think about it. British soldiers shooting dead un-armed British citizens, catholic families protesting for the right to not be evicted from their own homes in favour of a pregnant protestant girl. That's something you would more associate with Tiannamon Square or Gaza. Some people will never accept a James McClean at the club. That's fair enough, but at least equip yourselves with a few more facts before dismissing him as some random "provo lover". Absolutely spot on, civilians shot dead by the forces who were supposedly sent in to protect them from a Protestant Loyalist Apartheid. I can’t actually believe people can deny him his view. Every person on this board would feel the same way! They weren’t innocents they knew full well who was amongst them and their intentions as clearly admitted by McGuiness innocents would have gone out of their way to be nowhere to be seen never mind shot.
|
|
|
Post by pottercelt67 on May 27, 2018 12:05:49 GMT
Absolutely spot on, civilians shot dead by the forces who were supposedly sent in to protect them from a Protestant Loyalist Apartheid. I can’t actually believe people can deny him his view. Every person on this board would feel the same way! You absolutely right, he is entitled to his views, and entitled to display them however he wants. Is it not somewhat hypocritical though to ply your trade in a country that you have so much hatred, or so many feelings of hurt? Personally, if it was me, I wouldn’t step foot in the country, I’d prefer to play football elsewhere. McClean must be a better man than me if he can compartmentalise wealth, fame and fortune from his daily hurt of his deep rooted beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on May 27, 2018 12:10:21 GMT
Absolutely spot on, civilians shot dead by the forces who were supposedly sent in to protect them from a Protestant Loyalist Apartheid. I can’t actually believe people can deny him his view. Every person on this board would feel the same way! They weren’t innocents they knew full well who was amongst them and their intentions as clearly admitted by McGuiness innocents would have gone out of their way to be nowhere to be seen never mind shot. Lord Saville concludes that the soldiers of the support company who went into the Bogside did so as a result of an order which should not have been given by their commander.
He finds that, on balance, the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army.
He finds that none of the casualties shot by the soldiers of support company was armed with a firearm.
He finds that there was some firing by Republican paramilitaries but none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of civilian casualties.
And he finds that, in no case, was any warning given by soldiers before opening fire.
He also finds that the support company reacted by losing their self-control, forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and with a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline.
He finds that despite the contrary evidence given by the soldiers, none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers.
And he finds that many of the soldiers - and I quote knowingly - put forward false accounts to seek to justify their firing.
|
|
|
Post by pottercelt67 on May 27, 2018 12:14:14 GMT
You absolutely right, he is entitled to his views, and entitled to display them however he wants. Is it not somewhat hypocritical though to ply your trade in a country that you have so much hatred, or so many feelings of hurt? Personally, if it was me, I wouldn’t step foot in the country, I’d prefer to play football elsewhere. McClean must be a better man than me if he can compartmentalise wealth, fame and fortune from his daily hurt of his deep rooted beliefs. I don’t believe he’s ever stated hatred for the English, it is the actions of the British that he refers to. Britain is a political collective rather than a nationality. He was also born in Britain so has every right to ply his trade in Britain. By the way, I am English and very proud of it, however I also dislike the British ideology, won’t sing the national anthem or wave the Union Jack, I still work in England, have worked in Scotland and Northern Ireland - Should I be packing my bags and finding work somewhere else?
|
|
|
Post by terrorofturfmoor on May 27, 2018 12:16:25 GMT
Irrespective of what your beliefs are or not...you don't blatantly and publicly turn your back on a nations national anthem!!!
There was NO reason why he just couldn't have remained facing forward, and just blanked it out!!!
His actions were disrespectful, and I'd like to see him try to do the same thing in somewhere like Qatar or Saudi (if he had issues with them)!!!
Anyhow, that said....even without his views and beliefs, WE NEED BETTER THAN McCLEAN!!!
|
|
|
Post by vahl on May 27, 2018 12:17:55 GMT
I don’t believe he’s ever stated hatred for the English, it is the actions of the British that he refers to. Britain is a political collective rather than a nationality. He was also born in Britain so has every right to ply his trade in Britain. By the way, I am English and very proud of it, however I also dislike the British ideology, won’t sing the national anthem or wave the Union Jack, I still work in England, have worked in Scotland and Northern Ireland - Should I be packing my bags and finding work somewhere else? How can you be English and very proud when you dislike British ideology? It makes no sense. You have an issue with what we stand for? I bet Brexit has really hurt you?
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 12:24:54 GMT
They weren’t innocents they knew full well who was amongst them and their intentions as clearly admitted by McGuiness innocents would have gone out of their way to be nowhere to be seen never mind shot. Lord Saville concludes that the soldiers of the support company who went into the Bogside did so as a result of an order which should not have been given by their commander.
He finds that, on balance, the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army.
He finds that none of the casualties shot by the soldiers of support company was armed with a firearm.
He finds that there was some firing by Republican paramilitaries but none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of civilian casualties.
And he finds that, in no case, was any warning given by soldiers before opening fire.
He also finds that the support company reacted by losing their self-control, forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and with a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline.
He finds that despite the contrary evidence given by the soldiers, none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers.
And he finds that many of the soldiers - and I quote knowingly - put forward false accounts to seek to justify their firing. How easy for his Lordship with his nice cosy life of privilidge. Not really interested what Lord Saville concludes. The terrorists were amongst them, they knew full well who they were and that they had firearms, petrol bombs and pipe bombs stockpiled for their intentions. Knowing all that inocents would remove themselves. They are no different to the muslims who allow Isis to operate amongst them and provide them with cover because you can't destroy them without civilian casualties they're not innocent just because they aren't armed.
|
|
|
Post by sharonbeech21 on May 27, 2018 12:25:02 GMT
Definite No from me dont like him and dont rate him either. He is a dirty player as well. We dont want players like him at our club
|
|
|
Post by pottercelt67 on May 27, 2018 12:30:12 GMT
I don’t believe he’s ever stated hatred for the English, it is the actions of the British that he refers to. Britain is a political collective rather than a nationality. He was also born in Britain so has every right to ply his trade in Britain. By the way, I am English and very proud of it, however I also dislike the British ideology, won’t sing the national anthem or wave the Union Jack, I still work in England, have worked in Scotland and Northern Ireland - Should I be packing my bags and finding work somewhere else? How can you be English and very proud when you dislike British ideology? It makes no sense. You have an issue with what we stand for? I bet Brexit has really hurt you? If it makes no sense, it’s probably not worth trying to explain, to me it makes simple sense as it does to countless thousands of English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish. I’m not British because it isn’t a nationality, the historic ideology of The British was to invade and pillage as many countries as they could, that doesn’t fill me with pride. Anyway nuff said we’re off the football topic now.
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 12:30:48 GMT
I don’t believe he’s ever stated hatred for the English, it is the actions of the British that he refers to. Britain is a political collective rather than a nationality. He was also born in Britain so has every right to ply his trade in Britain. By the way, I am English and very proud of it, however I also dislike the British ideology, won’t sing the national anthem or wave the Union Jack, I still work in England, have worked in Scotland and Northern Ireland - Should I be packing my bags and finding work somewhere else? How can you be English and very proud when you dislike British ideology? It makes no sense. You have an issue with what we stand for?I bet Brexit has really hurt you? Who the fuck is we? Does everyone in England agree with one another on every subject?
|
|
|
Post by vahl on May 27, 2018 12:33:09 GMT
How can you be English and very proud when you dislike British ideology? It makes no sense. You have an issue with what we stand for?I bet Brexit has really hurt you? Who the fuck is we? Does everyone in England agree with one another on every subject? We are the 51.9% voting British public. You know, the majority?
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 12:37:19 GMT
Who the fuck is we? Does everyone in England agree with one another on every subject? We are the 51.9% voting British public. You know, the majority? So non of the other 48.1% are proud Englishmen or Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish? What a peculiar view. I'm part of a slim majority the rest of you are traitors.
|
|
|
Post by pottercelt67 on May 27, 2018 12:37:57 GMT
Who the fuck is we? Does everyone in England agree with one another on every subject? We are the 51.9% voting British public. You know, the majority? I’m not getting the relevance of Brexit to this thread
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 12:40:01 GMT
For what it's worth, there are many photographs of Martin McGuinness with the Queen and Prince Philip. Does that make them Provo sympathisers deserving of your bile? McClean comes from a city more associated with socialism, and the pursuit of equality, rather than with radical republicanism per se. It is in this context that the peaceful protest march on what is now called "Bloody Sunday" was organised - the duel objective being civil rights for Catholics and the removal of internment (the summery jailing of people without trial). There was a suspicion that the march was infiltrated by the provo's - certainly that was the excuse given by the army for opening fire - but that has never been proven. Nothing justified the execution of innocent marchers by the British Army on that day. The Widgery Tribunal, which was conducted with indecent haste, was a whitewash, and it was the Saville Enquiry that resulted in the full facts being established, and an official apology for the behaviour of the army being given by David Cameron from the floor of the Commons. Think about it. British soldiers shooting dead un-armed British citizens, catholic families protesting for the right to not be evicted from their own homes in favour of a pregnant protestant girl. That's something you would more associate with Tiannamon Square or Gaza. Some people will never accept a James McClean at the club. That's fair enough, but at least equip yourselves with a few more facts before dismissing him as some random "provo lover". Very good point B.I.G. 👍 NI was an absolute ethical quagmire on both sides, as wars usually are Should we condemn Churchill for the 1943 Indian famine that, through his direct policies, led to the deaths of 1.5 million people? Source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill%27s_Secret_WarWar, terrorism and politics are very dirty, grey areas
|
|
|
Post by stokiebis on May 27, 2018 12:40:18 GMT
Lord Saville concludes that the soldiers of the support company who went into the Bogside did so as a result of an order which should not have been given by their commander.
He finds that, on balance, the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army.
He finds that none of the casualties shot by the soldiers of support company was armed with a firearm.
He finds that there was some firing by Republican paramilitaries but none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of civilian casualties.
And he finds that, in no case, was any warning given by soldiers before opening fire.
He also finds that the support company reacted by losing their self-control, forgetting or ignoring their instructions and training and with a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline.
He finds that despite the contrary evidence given by the soldiers, none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers.
And he finds that many of the soldiers - and I quote knowingly - put forward false accounts to seek to justify their firing. How easy for his Lordship with his nice cosy life of privilidge. Not really interested what Lord Saville concludes. The terrorists were amongst them, they knew full well who they were and that they had firearms, petrol bombs and pipe bombs stockpiled for their intentions. Knowing all that inocents would remove themselves. They are no different to the muslims who allow Isis to operate amongst them and provide them with cover because you can't destroy them without civilian casualties they're not innocent just because they aren't armed. Exactly same as Hamas the civilians knew the terrorists were there .dont put yourself in the troubles nothing happens .patrolling the streets was an horrendous job being spat at daily n alot more by women n kids having to navigate sniper alley
|
|
|
Post by toppercorner on May 27, 2018 12:43:24 GMT
he's not even our player, we don't know whether our new manager (on holiday) is even interested, he didn't help WBA much, he's past his peak and he's divisive to a fan base that really needs to unite for the next season.
i don't even think he's that good so let's fuck him off already
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 12:43:25 GMT
Don’t sing why would I disrespect it I’m a patriotic Englishman. It’s a constitutional objection. It’s a view just like I think we should have a new secular constitution that prevents any religion breeding itself into a majority and forcing religion down people’s throats in a country where more people identify themselves as nil religion than any single religious denomination. Fuck religions, all of them. And herein lies the difference between yourself and McClean. You choose to be covert in your actions, which, I believe, everyone respects (or should) whereas McClean goes out of his way to show his feelings. No, I'm not covert in expressing and sharing my views otherwise I wouldn't be posting them on a message board. I put them forward at any given opportunity. That doesn't mean I wish to disrespect my country because I vehemently disagree with some aspects of its constitution.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 12:48:48 GMT
I don’t believe he’s ever stated hatred for the English, it is the actions of the British that he refers to. Britain is a political collective rather than a nationality. He was also born in Britain so has every right to ply his trade in Britain. By the way, I am English and very proud of it, however I also dislike the British ideology, won’t sing the national anthem or wave the Union Jack, I still work in England, have worked in Scotland and Northern Ireland - Should I be packing my bags and finding work somewhere else? How can you be English and very proud when you dislike British ideology? It makes no sense. You have an issue with what we stand for? I bet Brexit has really hurt you? British ideology: Concentration camps - invented en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_concentration_campsRacial genocide - to protect UK interests WWII -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill%27s_Secret_War More Churchillian ideology - en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_chemical_weapons_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920Plus the UK involvement in the slave trade that built Liverpool and Bristol plus other ports It's not so clean cut is it?
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 12:52:48 GMT
No it isn't. Political Correctness Multi Culturalism Positive discrimination Whatever your viewpoint there are always going to be aspects of your own nation that you dislike it doesn't make you some Brit hating traitor.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 12:53:47 GMT
We are the 51.9% voting British public. You know, the majority? So non of the other 48.1% are proud Englishmen or Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish? What a peculiar view. I'm part of a slim majority the rest of you are traitors. I think the problem is twofold: 1) we, as a species, need hate to define who we are as in I hate you, because you are not like me: white/black/Muslim/Jew/Christian/Tory/labour/tax payer/benefits class the list of opposites is infinite and defining of both the I that says I am and the you it differentiates 2) this should be on the "everything else" thread 😬😁
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 12:55:12 GMT
No it isn't. Political Correctness Multi Culturalism Positive discrimination Whatever your viewpoint there are always going to be aspects of your own nation that you dislike it doesn't make you some Brit hating traitor. Agreed 👍 I, you, this nation ain't perfect and there is good and evil in all of us, at any time, should we choose to act that way
|
|
|
Post by alster on May 27, 2018 12:58:38 GMT
So non of the other 48.1% are proud Englishmen or Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish? What a peculiar view. I'm part of a slim majority the rest of you are traitors. I think the problem is twofold: 1) we, as a species, need hate to define who we are as in I hate you, because you are not like me: white/black/Muslim/Jew/Christian/Tory/labour/tax payer/benefits class the list of opposites is infinite and defining of both the I that says I am and the you it differentiates 2) this should be on the "everything else" thread 😬😁 It was a bit grey whether it was a football topic right from the start but yes we have diverged totally.
|
|
|
Post by terrorofturfmoor on May 27, 2018 13:02:49 GMT
Wow, talk about over analysing something....this thread is in danger of getting out of hand!!!
Let's just stick to football reasons now...
Do we need him??? For me it's a NO.... We could do so much better!!!
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on May 27, 2018 13:07:01 GMT
Wow, talk about over analysing something....this thread is in danger of getting out of hand!!! Let's just stick to football reasons now... Do we need him??? For me it's a NO.... We could do so much better!!! But it is part of the reason we shouldn't touch him with a barge pole. This shit follows him around like a bad smell. Combine that with him not having the talent to deflect it and it makes it a no brainer not to sign him.
|
|
|
Post by terrorofturfmoor on May 27, 2018 13:18:59 GMT
Wow, talk about over analysing something....this thread is in danger of getting out of hand!!! Let's just stick to football reasons now... Do we need him??? For me it's a NO.... We could do so much better!!! But it is part of the reason we shouldn't touch him with a barge pole. This shit follows him around like a bad smell. Combine that with him not having the talent to deflect it and it makes it a no brainer not to sign him. Dunna get me wrong bayern....I agree with ya wholeheartedly.....it's just that reading some of the posts on here, it's becoming way to deep!!!
|
|