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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 14, 2018 10:52:27 GMT
He’s right, but it’ll be impossible for Burnley to ‘remain earthy’. The price of success is raised expectation, and after a while, when you realise there’s not much chance of winning anything, you want to see your team have a go and score a few, so some sort of evolution from ‘earthiness’ is required. It’s hard to get that right. We’ve been so close to achieving that twice, once under each Prem era manager, but each one lost sight of what was needed at the crucial moment and reverted to type - Pulis to caution and conservatism, Hughes to ‘names’ over grit and desire a la QPR. I agree and would remind all Stoke fans of what Bolton fans said when we came up. A lot of them described exactly what has happened to us, we'd start off scrapping and fighting and we'd use that to stay up and then, over time, that doesn't become enough and you try to become a team that plays like the top six but without the playing quality and without the fight and scrapping that keeps you up. And in the end you slip up. All this was predicted ten years ago, sadly. It'll probably be the same for the likes of Burnley and Leicester and various other clubs once their teams have to start to evolve. It's no bad thing in reality, as it means the 14 clubs outside of the top six can all go down, and often do, which means other teams can get into the PL. Where would the interest be if the same 17 teams constantly stayed in the division? |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 14, 2018 10:53:13 GMT
How do you define 2 and 3 in practice though? Is it just sticking men behind the ball and playing for a 0-0 every week? For us it’s about witnessing players who have the right character, mental attitude and and professionalism to be integral part of a team, with a winning mentality first and foremost. A team that can relate to the supporters and vice versa. We we ain’t going to win every game, players will have off days, players will make individual mistakes. That’s all part of football, it could be argued it’s what makes football. The other her obvious is (where we have failed) is with the recruitment of such professionals and the management and direction of team. Unfortunately the term “entertainment” is extremely subjective which at times tends to warp opinions. We (collectively) need to regain the winning mentality first and foremost Say you do that though, and after a few years you’ve re-established yourself - it’s all but impossible not to become part of the same cycle again isn’t it? Sooner or later you have to give your fans something to shout about. Scoring a few goals etc, or at least trying to. Nobody wants years and years and years and years of a back eight and the cage and defensive strikers and all that stuff. The myth we were sold and that some bought wholesale is that there’s no other way than that. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on May 14, 2018 11:00:49 GMT
Here's a little snippet from McNulty at the BBC:- What happens when you sign poor players, allow your ageing squad to fall into total disrepair and delay sacking a manager who has clearly lost his way? You get relegated - and that is exactly what has happened to Stoke City. Did the owners, the Coates family, become complacent after years of stability? Dreadful team and dreadful transfer strategy. Stoke's fans deserve so much better. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44100746An article that contains the most pointless stat in history: "This is only the second time in Premier League history that two teams beginning with the letter 'S' have been relegated in the same season - also 1993-94 (Swindon and Sheffield United)" Some of the manager ratings seem harsh - 5/10 for Puel and Moyes who've both done (probably more than) what they needed to do. A lot of the media seem to be falling into the trap that every team should be awesome pretty much every week, and the manager should be out if they're not - even if they've only been in the job for a few weeks. I think Puel at least deserves time to put his own stamp on the team. Given the players Leicester have lost and are likely to lose, top-half will be a good season for them for the foreseeable future. |
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mikeyc
Academy Starlet
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Post by mikeyc on May 14, 2018 11:24:11 GMT
Talking to a Watford fan yesterday - said he was quite jealous of us playing in the Championship, which just says it all!
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 14, 2018 11:53:04 GMT
For us it’s about witnessing players who have the right character, mental attitude and and professionalism to be integral part of a team, with a winning mentality first and foremost. A team that can relate to the supporters and vice versa. We we ain’t going to win every game, players will have off days, players will make individual mistakes. That’s all part of football, it could be argued it’s what makes football. The other her obvious is (where we have failed) is with the recruitment of such professionals and the management and direction of team. Unfortunately the term “entertainment” is extremely subjective which at times tends to warp opinions. We (collectively) need to regain the winning mentality first and foremost Say you do that though, and after a few years you’ve re-established yourself - it’s all but impossible not to become part of the same cycle again isn’t it? Sooner or later you have to give your fans something to shout about. Scoring a few goals etc, or at least trying to. Nobody wants years and years and years and years of a back eight and the cage and defensive strikers and all that stuff. The myth we were sold and that some bought wholesale is that there’s no other way than that. It’s about “continual” evolution with better quality players but with the same blueprint which proved to be successful. It’s also about managing and promoting sound and realistic expectations. That doesn’t mean we’re poor old Stoke. It’s about regular and consistent communication with supporters. Personally I believe we’ve been extremely poor at both which are a “significant aspect” of our current predicament. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 14, 2018 12:06:02 GMT
Say you do that though, and after a few years you’ve re-established yourself - it’s all but impossible not to become part of the same cycle again isn’t it? Sooner or later you have to give your fans something to shout about. Scoring a few goals etc, or at least trying to. Nobody wants years and years and years and years of a back eight and the cage and defensive strikers and all that stuff. The myth we were sold and that some bought wholesale is that there’s no other way than that. It’s about “continual” evolution with better quality players but with the same blueprint which proved to be successful. It’s also about managing and promoting sound and realistic expectations. That doesn’t mean we’re poor old Stoke. It’s about regular and consistent communication with supporters. Personally I believe we’ve been extremely poor at both which are a “significant aspect” of our current predicament. Do you not risk getting found out if you stick to the exact same way of doing things though? Isn't there an element of needing to move with the times? For me that was part of the reason for our regression under both managers, we were always lagging behind the tactical trends. When teams started to get somewhere with possession football, we were still hoofing it. When other teams embraced pressing, we were still playing under Hughes a kind of ponderous, half-speed tiki-taka. Flexibility should be a good thing. I agree about sound and realistic expectations. Being able to aim for top half and a cup run, occasionally bloodying the nose of the big boys and flirting with Europe, playing positive football, shouldn't be unrealistic. |
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Post by salopstick on May 14, 2018 12:11:58 GMT
Every team will eventually sink
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 14, 2018 12:23:51 GMT
Every team will eventually sink Flexibility is spot on. That’s why we need (for me) an experienced manager and coaching staff that have proven track records of evolutionary change and relative success. Coupled with a robust and effective recruitment strategy and the personnel to implement it. |
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Post by jezzascfc on May 14, 2018 12:53:01 GMT
I had no problem moving on from Pulisball - it is not that we lost our identity, as we voluntarily abandoned it. It is that we did not fully commit to a new one, we bottled it at the height of BMX-inspired performances, started this talk of self-sufficiency, limited spending and, what we did spend, spent terribly. We got complacent and thought we were an "established" Premier League club.
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Post by Davef on May 14, 2018 12:57:04 GMT
Talking to a Watford fan yesterday - said he was quite jealous of us playing in the Championship, which just says it all! He won't have to wait long. |
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Post by JoeinOz on May 14, 2018 13:07:33 GMT
I had no problem moving on from Pulisball - it is not that we lost our identity, as we voluntarily abandoned it. It is that we did not fully commit to a new one, we bottled it at the height of BMX-inspired performances, started this talk of self-sufficiency, limited spending and, what we did spend, spent terribly. We got complacent and thought we were an "established" Premier League club. We were established. BUT we forgot to maintain it. Just being stable requires constant attention. |
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Post by salopstick on May 14, 2018 14:13:48 GMT
Talking to a Watford fan yesterday - said he was quite jealous of us playing in the Championship, which just says it all! He won't have to wait long. I think their method is to continually change the manager and slowly improve the squad so that it doesn’t get stale and change is easier to make. It appears to be working thus far. I get the point. When you see the dross that managed to survive it makes out relegation all the more bad. The league table does not lie but with better application we had the squad to be above at least three other teams |
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Post by CalgaryPotter on May 14, 2018 15:29:12 GMT
All teams from Burnley down had a minus goal difference, says it all to me! In the end we put fancy adornments on our Trojan Horse but forgot to put the soldiers inside and were easily repelled in the end. I noticed this yesterday when I sat looking at the table wondering how the hell did it come to this. It really is a joke of a league and getting worse. A couple of seasons back you could argue that there were three leagues within one and we were towards the top end of the second. Now, but for the fact that Man City were off the charts, its two leagues. Leicester winning the league in what seemed a transitional year for the big six has fucked it for all. Spending has gone through the roof, well outside of club's earning capacity and as much as you can admire how Man City play and fawn over Guardiola, they have spent well over half a billion to put that team together, they should be mint! The only way this league becomes a competition again is if limits are imposed on spending and salaries, but that won't happen. The governing bodies lost complete control with the advent of the Premier League and they are scared shitless of the big 6.  |
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Post by lancyclaret on May 14, 2018 15:36:33 GMT
Great article. Think burnley will struggle with the thurs sun routine next season Not if we get knocked out in any of the 3 qualifying rounds...we'd probably have to beat a top Spanish, German, Italian or French side to get to the group stages. But we DO get an extra "bye" in the League Cup, coming in at the same stage as Man City, Liverpool etc. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 15:47:19 GMT
Great article. Think burnley will struggle with the thurs sun routine next season Not if we get knocked out in any of the 3 qualifying rounds...we'd probably have to beat a top Spanish, German, Italian or French side to get to the group stages. But we DO get an extra "bye" in the League Cup, coming in at the same stage as Man City, Liverpool etc. I think you will struggle either way next season, this season has been a bit of freak season for you with all those 1-0 wins. |
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Post by lancyclaret on May 14, 2018 15:56:08 GMT
Burnley, Huddersfield and Brighton fans will soon get bored and want a bit more The £7m signings will no longer suffice and they want that £20m player and that’s when the problems start as those players ( stars ) start rocking the boat when new contracts need negotiating or bigger clubs come sniffing as they know even if they don’t pull their weight somebody else will come along and sign them We had it with Nzonzi Arnoutovic and Begovic who made it clear they wanted away no matter how much the club tried and then the rot sets in Probably right...I feel flat and disappointed that we have ended the season with a whimper...2 draws and 3 defeats in the final 5 games. After beating Leicester on April 14, I was hoping we'd break the 60-point barrier and overhaul Arsenal for 6th place. Instead, we got smashed by Arsenal and, disgracefully, finished with a negative goal difference after taking pride all season in a scrooge-like defence (32 conceded in 36 games - less than 1 goal a game until the Arsenal no-show). And to make matters worse, yesterday we conceded a stoppage time winner at home to a very average Bournemouth team. In the other 25 matches against "Non-top Six" teams, NOBODY had scored more than one against us. Complacency has crept in already. |
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Post by lancyclaret on May 14, 2018 16:01:32 GMT
Not if we get knocked out in any of the 3 qualifying rounds...we'd probably have to beat a top Spanish, German, Italian or French side to get to the group stages. But we DO get an extra "bye" in the League Cup, coming in at the same stage as Man City, Liverpool etc. I think you will struggle either way next season, this season has been a bit of freak season for you with all those 1-0 wins. Not strictly true...only 6 of the 14 wins were 1-0. We probably won't do as well in the league next season, but we certainly won't get relegated while Dyche is our manager and I fancy us for a good FA Cup or League Cup run. |
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Post by harryburrows on May 14, 2018 16:03:08 GMT
Burnley, Huddersfield and Brighton fans will soon get bored and want a bit more The £7m signings will no longer suffice and they want that £20m player and that’s when the problems start as those players ( stars ) start rocking the boat when new contracts need negotiating or bigger clubs come sniffing as they know even if they don’t pull their weight somebody else will come along and sign them We had it with Nzonzi Arnoutovic and Begovic who made it clear they wanted away no matter how much the club tried and then the rot sets in The problem being that nzonzi , Arne and begovic transfers are symptomatic of a decent transfer policy to begin with they are part of the problem called self sufficiency. Clubs like Southampton, and Swansea, have struggled as a result . Even spurs , Liverpool and arsenal are not immune. Clubs like ours need to be very canny year after year . We just haven't |
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Post by tony1234 on May 14, 2018 17:44:27 GMT
Excellent - great article and great post. There is an old adage. "Always do what your enemies want least". For Stoke, it feels awkward to say, but that would have probably been to continue to be the sort of team that Pulis created. Perhaps upgraded a little, faster, more technical players.... but still players that were aggressive, dogmatic, clever, unyielding, industrial, selfless. Our evolved team, in a parallel universe, may have not looked unlike's Burnley's: and our season may have also panned out with hard fought 0-0s and 1-0s won from the back foot. It was a team brand, though, that we no longer wanted and, let's be honest, 80%+ of Stokies were on the ride eating popcorn as we aspired to be Barcelona B. A part of me feels a bit ashamed of myself to be honest. Not about Pulis, or Hughes per se, but being seduced. Its feels like lusting over some scantily clad loud mouthed tart, behind the back of your life partner. No blame attached here. Others may feel differently. Its the way of life. The fact other teams have undergone similar fates (or will do soon) - mocking the idea of Snodgrass, Brady et al but drooling over Lemina, Krychowiak et al - suggests its not just us. Let's put it right and get on with it the Stoke way. To be honest I hate this revisionist idea that we're supposed to be ashamed of ourselves for the Stokealona thing and that who are we, little old Stoke City, to think we could play like that and have nice things? It's bollocks. With the right tweaks that could have worked for longer, or at least a version of it could. You absolute do need a strong core and some leaders to make it work, as you do any system, and that's what we lost sight of, but there is a middle way, we don't have to tug our forelocks and only ever score from set pieces because that's our place. And, equally, I think its a mistake to equate the pursuit of cheap foreign tat with either ambition or an exciting style. I think its that mindset which is "little old Stoke" - fawning over players with long names and tans. I'm only suggested our blueprint could have been more Burnley and Tottenham, who are two teams at different levels, with a core of fit hard working British players, than a charity shop version of Chelsea Its not revisionist - I'm not rewriting history, just remembering it - we can only learn and reflect with hindsight. With hindsight, Stoke didn't build on the strength of an identity and culture to be proud of, and pursued tat instead. It worked for a time, so it had some merit and I can see that argument. But overall, I can't help but feel there was a better way to have moved forwards. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 14, 2018 17:54:00 GMT
To be honest I hate this revisionist idea that we're supposed to be ashamed of ourselves for the Stokealona thing and that who are we, little old Stoke City, to think we could play like that and have nice things? It's bollocks. With the right tweaks that could have worked for longer, or at least a version of it could. You absolute do need a strong core and some leaders to make it work, as you do any system, and that's what we lost sight of, but there is a middle way, we don't have to tug our forelocks and only ever score from set pieces because that's our place. And, equally, I think its a mistake to equate the pursuit of cheap foreign tat with either ambition or an exciting style. I think its that mindset which is "little old Stoke" - fawning over players with long names and tans. I'm only suggested our blueprint could have been more Burnley and Tottenham, who are two teams at different levels, with a core of fit hard working British players, than a charity shop version of Chelsea Its not revisionist - I'm not rewriting history, just remembering it - we can only learn and reflect with hindsight. With hindsight, Stoke didn't build on the strength of an identity and culture to be proud of, and pursued tat instead. It worked for a time, so it had some merit and I can see that argument. But overall, I can't help but feel there was a better way to have moved forwards. Nationality has nothing to do with it. Some of the biggest contributors to our downfall this season, whether they meant to be or not, were British. The biggest waster on the books has been living in the UK since he was a child and is to all intents and purposes British. It does feel pretty revisionist to suggest we shouldn’t ever have aspired to be more than a team of defensive cloggers, yes. Signing players from overseas doesn’t make you ‘a pound shop version of Chelsea’. It doesn’t matter where they come from if they’re of sufficient quality and up for the challenge. |
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Post by Miles Offside on May 14, 2018 17:55:26 GMT
Difficult to argue with any of that article.
Thanks for posting it.
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