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Post by Rebelliousjukebox on May 25, 2008 9:40:16 GMT
I don't go to Church - would be somewhat hypocricitical if, as an athiest, I did.
However, I have my own set of beliefs/ethics/morals - closest to any actual category would be humanism - which I defend in arguments etc., that help me to determine how I lead my life, how I treat others, and how I view society. I simply don't believe in a God or some other supernatural being, and certainly not in any organised religion.
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Post by Spiderman on May 25, 2008 10:24:56 GMT
People cause wars not religion
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Post by Rebelliousjukebox on May 25, 2008 11:19:21 GMT
People cause wars not religion Yes indeed, but you must agree that there have been a fair few wars/disputes in which religion has been central, and in which organised religions have played their part in the conflict, e.g. Northern Ireland.
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Post by salopstick on May 25, 2008 11:57:44 GMT
People cause wars not religion agreed - over religion The beginnings of Jihad are traced back to the words and actions of Muhammad and the Qu’ran[27]. This word of Allah explicitly encourages the use of Jihad against the unbelievers[28]. Sura 25, verse 52 states: “Do not yield to the unbelievers, but fight them vigorously with this.”[29] It was, therefore, the duty of all Muslims to fight against those who did not believe in Allah and took offensive action against Muslims. The Qu’ran, however, never uses the term Jihad for fighting and combat in the name of Allah, qital is used to mean “fighting.” The struggle for Jihad in the Qu’ran was originally intended for the nearby neighbors of the Muslims, but as time passed and more enemies arose, the Qu’ranic statements supporting Jihad were updated for the new adversaries[30]. The first documentation of the law of Jihad was written by ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Awza’i and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Shaybani. The document grew out of debates that had surfaced ever since Muhammad's death[31]. jihad
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Post by guernseydave on May 25, 2008 17:03:32 GMT
As i said before. Anyone who believes whatever shit is spouted by whatever religion at the time needs certifing
GD
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Post by R.I.P Fullers Nan on May 25, 2008 18:46:32 GMT
why is there evil and suffering in the world spidey? Sounds like a GCSE question
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Post by boothenendboy on May 25, 2008 19:43:02 GMT
GCSE'S are piss easy nowadays then ;D
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Post by Butters on May 25, 2008 20:07:55 GMT
Nice little World God created.
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Post by boothenendboy on May 25, 2008 20:10:51 GMT
that titty,is exactly my point.
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Post by Butters on May 25, 2008 20:14:39 GMT
that titty,is exactly my point. I also like how the Church says it's our fault/choices that the world is like this, and their amazing God has nothing to do with any bad in the world. Wasn't the hijackers in 9/11 religous fanatics?
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Post by Spiderman on May 27, 2008 12:48:00 GMT
Nice little World God created. But this is how we shaped it, not God.
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Post by amancalledhorse on May 27, 2008 13:27:20 GMT
Scientology all the way. Hopefully within 100 years that will be the #1 religion and their lawyers will bully all the others into folding.
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Post by Rebelliousjukebox on May 27, 2008 13:39:28 GMT
Nice little World God created. But this is how we shaped it, not God. But - and please do correct me if I'm wrong - I thought that Christians believe that we're made in God's image. Therefore, ultimately, particularly since he (never she I notice) is supposed to be all-powerful, it seems logical that he is ultimately responsible. Am I being too simplistic about it here, or is it my natural scepticism?
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Post by jacksscfc on May 27, 2008 15:13:24 GMT
SHIT BIN.....
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Post by tampon on May 27, 2008 15:31:39 GMT
But this is how we shaped it, not God. That's not true now is it, we didn't create the harsh conditions in Africa... I don't believe a God did either, that's just the way it is over there and there just happens to be enough resources out there to support life, albeit in a pretty horrendous state. Depending on what part of the planet you (or your ancestors) are born in normally determines your religion, just like a language, religion is inherent to a culture. It seems to me that it is human nature to look to a greater power that may or may not be there (we can't all be right). If the world was a more accesible place when religions were spawning up then we'd all have similar ideals as it is though we all have our own belief systems built on blind faith and 0 evidence... if you were born in South America in the 14th century you'd worship the sun (you still might, who knows). That's why I don't believe in any higher power.
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Red 5
Spectator
Russell's Teapot
Posts: 34
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Post by Red 5 on May 27, 2008 17:16:20 GMT
Spiderman
If you do attend Church, and believe in a supernatural being, and from this belief you derive comfort and it brings you happiness, then all well and good.
You state in your original post ...
"I've seen what good kind hearted people the regular congregatoin are and the humility and kindness that is shared."
Fine, the modern world can be a harsh place and you have found amongst the congregation of your Church good, kind folk.
However...it proves absolutely nothing about the existence of a God.
Your belief in a “God” like every other believer is not based on facts. Before you ask, no I cannot prove that God does not exist, neither can I prove that the Tooth Fairy does not exist but that does not mean I believe in her.
You see “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (Carl Sagan) And the onus is firmly upon the believers to provide this evidence.
Are you saying that without a belief in a God people can not show humility or kindness to their fellow human being?
You ask “have you read the Bible”? Well I have, and in parts (Leviticus, Deuteronomy) it is an extremely violent book. It advocates slavery, ethnic cleansing, death for non believers etc. I know that the parts which instruct you to love thy neighbour, and do unto others etc. are very admirable, but you can not “cherry pick” choosing only to believe in the good bits.
I am not having a go at you or your beliefs, indeed most religious people (the Sunday morning tea & biscuits brigade) are fine upstanding folk, but look what happens when the radical madmen get hold of religion, and commit terrible acts in the name of their God, or as more than often happens convince the weak to do it for them.
Religion was man's first attempt to make sense of the world he found himself in, he did not understand about disease and why his crops failed etc., in a modern enlightened society we have no need of supernatural beings.
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Post by Jackalina on May 27, 2008 19:32:47 GMT
Spiderman If you do attend Church, and believe in a supernatural being, and from this belief you derive comfort and it brings you happiness, then all well and good. You state in your original post ... "I've seen what good kind hearted people the regular congregatoin are and the humility and kindness that is shared." Fine, the modern world can be a harsh place and you have found amongst the congregation of your Church good, kind folk. However...it proves absolutely nothing about the existence of a God. Your belief in a “God” like every other believer is not based on facts. Before you ask, no I cannot prove that God does not exist, neither can I prove that the Tooth Fairy does not exist but that does not mean I believe in her. You see “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (Carl Sagan) And the onus is firmly upon the believers to provide this evidence. Are you saying that without a belief in a God people can not show humility or kindness to their fellow human being? You ask “have you read the Bible”? Well I have, and in parts (Leviticus, Deuteronomy) it is an extremely violent book. It advocates slavery, ethnic cleansing, death for non believers etc. I know that the parts which instruct you to love thy neighbour, and do unto others etc. are very admirable, but you can not “cherry pick” choosing only to believe in the good bits. I am not having a go at you or your beliefs, indeed most religious people (the Sunday morning tea & biscuits brigade) are fine upstanding folk, but look what happens when the radical madmen get hold of religion, and commit terrible acts in the name of their God, or as more than often happens convince the weak to do it for them. Religion was man's first attempt to make sense of the world he found himself in, he did not understand about disease and why his crops failed etc., in a modern enlightened society we have no need of supernatural beings. SUPERB. . Have some karma.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2008 19:38:56 GMT
And that's why, Thank God, I'm an atheist
;D
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Post by larrypotter on May 27, 2008 20:18:44 GMT
Red 5 - you may have read the bible but it appears that you haven't understood it. Of course there are violent incidents - you'll find violence in many history books. And it isn't a question of 'cherry picking' the 'good bits' - the 'good bits' may be seen as a progression. This 'modern enlightened society' seems to have stuttered for some strange reason - a regression perhaps?
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Post by daisydays on May 27, 2008 20:20:15 GMT
If you have a spare half hour Check these out, well worth a watch. Maybe not for you spide
Say no more only fabricated nonsense!!
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Post by starkiller on May 27, 2008 21:16:33 GMT
People cause wars not religion People cause religion.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on May 27, 2008 21:17:19 GMT
This is an interesting thread if nothing else..even though my alter-ego VicarofStokie would be appalled by some of the comments posted
He used to tell me that people justified their actions by citing religous texts i.e, "It's in the Bible to --------------------" (fill in space)...so that's ok then
During his sermons Vicar would say that people pray to God out of desperation because theres no-where else/person to turn to..i.e, some form of "crutch"
As such Religion is a symbol of despair not hope
If there is a God, why does he allow millions of innocent babies die every year through disease, malnutrition etc in the most horrific way causing such terrible grief to their mothers?
The more you learn (and travel abroad) the more you learn about some of the awful suffering that takes place and affects the most innocent people through no fault of their own
And at that point you think, if there is a God, thank fuck I don't believe in him
Because if he allows all that to happen and just stands back he is worthless
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2008 21:22:51 GMT
church in kings cross used to be acr, moved now
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Post by ricksastokie on May 28, 2008 1:05:36 GMT
Random thoughts
I'm a dyslexic agnostic... I don't believe there is a dog
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883)
But seriously... Do I believe in God? I don't know but I do pray. I pray for sick friends and relatives I pray for Stoke to do well I pray for my dead Mum, Dad and sister
As the Saw Doctors sang... you know you'd often wonder as the years go past why you ever bothered going to mass was it the fear of god or to find a wife or just buying shares in the afterlife
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Post by Tubes on May 28, 2008 8:34:01 GMT
Red 5 - you may have read the bible but it appears that you haven't understood it. Of course there are violent incidents - you'll find violence in many history books. And it isn't a question of 'cherry picking' the 'good bits' - the 'good bits' may be seen as a progression. This 'modern enlightened society' seems to have stuttered for some strange reason - a regression perhaps? the point is our morals are not taken from the Bible or the Koran, but from modern society. What was moral 100 years ago isn't what is moral now, despite the fact that the bible hasn't changed in these times. We choose our morals, and then cherry pick bits from the bible to justify them, and completely IGNORE the bits which that contradict these morals. If the book is, as it is supposed to be, the word of God, then who are we to choose which bits we think are applicable.
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Red 5
Spectator
Russell's Teapot
Posts: 34
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Post by Red 5 on May 28, 2008 9:16:31 GMT
Larrypotter
You are correct, I do not understand the Bible, neither do you.
That is the problem with all the “holy books” no one really understands them, they just choose an interpretation that suits their cause.
Take the Koran, if you ask a member of the British Council of Muslims for his interpretation, he would tell you that it teaches peace, tolerance of others, aiding the afflicted etc. If you asked Mohammed Sidique Khan (7/7 bomber) for his version you would have received a very different answer.
And as for your suggestion that the Bible is an “historical book”, it is quite simply laughable. Noah's ark, corpses rising from the dead, please.
I understand Biblical scholars would argue that many parts are allegories, or morality stories, but that only brings us back to interpretation.
Are you also suggesting that as the Bible progresses from the Old Testament to the New, its teachings improve?
Well consider this...
In the Old Testament there is no mention of hell, so at least when you die you can escape the wrath of a vengeful God. You have to wait for sweet baby Jesus “meek and mild” in the new testament who informed us that should you choose not to follow Gods teachings you would be cast into the eternal fires for all eternity!
And finally LP, I am certainly not suggesting that modern society has ALL the answers.
I am not anti-religion, I fully respect the majority of religious peoples beliefs, and I have found that the majority of moderate believers respect mine. However I will not respect people who would let their child die rather than allowing them to receive a simple blood transfusion, people who claim that wearing condoms is a “sin” and encourage the spread of Aids, in my opinion these “believers” are at best misguided fools, and at worst dangerous.
EDIT: Tubes excellent point...
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Post by Zippy Moon Dust on May 28, 2008 9:25:22 GMT
Religion causes flatulence. FACT.
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Post by northantsash on May 28, 2008 14:41:14 GMT
religion is nothing more than a set of values and beliefs, into which people socialise to gain a value consensus, and let the values and beliefs of their religion influence their life. religion is one of several ideological means that the state has of controlling the population.
im not religious myself, even though i have attended a Church of England junior school in my younger years, where children of muslim descent were made to sit in assembly and repeat the lord's prayer each day.
karl Marx description of religion as the "opium of the masses" demonstrates how religion is used as a conservative force, it maintains class divides.
religion is also as others have said the primary cause for many conflicts and terrorist attacks etc.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on May 28, 2008 14:50:55 GMT
I'm Agnostic, thank God.
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Post by Juan Kerzhoff on May 28, 2008 20:33:08 GMT
I go when they've had the roof religned
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