|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 9:06:33 GMT
If this is representative of our academy policy then the whole exercise has been a wastebin, as not one single player has established himself at Stoke. The exception would be Edwards, but Lambert does not seem to have taken to him, and that could spell the end of any hopes we might have had. You are perhaps reading too much into what Geoff Cameron says. He says you can recognise within 5 minutes if a player is going to establish himself as a pro. Establishing yourself as a pro is very different to establishing yourself as a Premier League player. You're probably correct. But how many of our former academy players have then established themselves as pros, i.e. gone on to make a name for themselves at other clubs? Marshall, Moult, Rooney,Shotton, Bachman, somebody else? I think even those names would be to stretch the terms 'former academy' and 'established'. The first four signed on before the heavy academy investment took place about 5-6 years ago, and of those Marshall wasn't even 'our home product', and Bachman, while on the bench regularly for Watford, is yet to play a league match for them. I suppose Eve, having won international recognition, is the most established,
|
|
|
Post by StoKeith on Feb 27, 2018 9:23:02 GMT
You are perhaps reading too much into what Geoff Cameron says. He says you can recognise within 5 minutes if a player is going to establish himself as a pro. Establishing yourself as a pro is very different to establishing yourself as a Premier League player. You're probably correct. But how many of our former academy players have then established themselves as pros, i.e. gone on to make a name for themselves at other clubs? Marshall, Moult, Rooney,Shotton, Bachman, somebody else? I think even those names would be to stretch the terms 'former academy' and 'established'. The first four signed on before the heavy academy investment took place about 5-6 years ago, and of those Marshall wasn't even 'our home product', and Bachman, while on the bench regularly for Watford, is yet to play a league match for them. I suppose Eve, having won international recognition, is the most established, Ben Foster, Richard Keogh (Derby County captain), Andy Wilkinson, Carl Dickinson, Karl Henry, Brian Wilson, Kris Commons Can’t think of any more right now.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2018 9:52:39 GMT
You're probably correct. But how many of our former academy players have then established themselves as pros, i.e. gone on to make a name for themselves at other clubs? Marshall, Moult, Rooney,Shotton, Bachman, somebody else? I think even those names would be to stretch the terms 'former academy' and 'established'. The first four signed on before the heavy academy investment took place about 5-6 years ago, and of those Marshall wasn't even 'our home product', and Bachman, while on the bench regularly for Watford, is yet to play a league match for them. I suppose Eve, having won international recognition, is the most established, Ben Foster, Richard Keogh (Derby County captain), Andy Wilkinson, Carl Dickinson, Karl Henry, Brian Wilson, Kris Commons Can’t think of any more right now. Karim Rossi, Florent Cuvelier, Adam Vass Ryan Brunt, Ben Heneghan and Jimmy Phillips.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 12:51:41 GMT
You're probably correct. But how many of our former academy players have then established themselves as pros, i.e. gone on to make a name for themselves at other clubs? Marshall, Moult, Rooney,Shotton, Bachman, somebody else? I think even those names would be to stretch the terms 'former academy' and 'established'. The first four signed on before the heavy academy investment took place about 5-6 years ago, and of those Marshall wasn't even 'our home product', and Bachman, while on the bench regularly for Watford, is yet to play a league match for them. I suppose Eve, having won international recognition, is the most established, Ben Foster, Richard Keogh (Derby County captain), Andy Wilkinson, Carl Dickinson, Karl Henry, Brian Wilson, Kris Commons Can’t think of any more right now. Yes they are home produce, and have had lengthy if not illustrous careers, but none of them are a result of our investment in the academy which is the lovechild of the chairman's.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 13:02:17 GMT
Ben Foster, Richard Keogh (Derby County captain), Andy Wilkinson, Carl Dickinson, Karl Henry, Brian Wilson, Kris Commons Can’t think of any more right now. Karim Rossi, Florent Cuvelier, Adam Vass Ryan Brunt, Ben Heneghan and Jimmy Phillips. That's more like it, but none of those made a single senior appearence, so the fact that they established themselves as pros would seem more to be in spite of their academy failure than because of it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 13:03:08 GMT
Karim Rossi, Florent Cuvelier, Adam Vass Ryan Brunt, Ben Heneghan and Jimmy Phillips. That's more like it, but none of those made a single senior appearence for us, so the fact that they established themselves as pros would seem more to be in spite of their academy failure than because of it.
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Feb 27, 2018 13:12:31 GMT
Karim Rossi, Florent Cuvelier, Adam Vass Ryan Brunt, Ben Heneghan and Jimmy Phillips. That's more like it, but none of those made a single senior appearence, so the fact that they established themselves as pros would seem more to be in spite of their academy failure than because of it. It simply emphasises the point I made earlier in the thread - there is a very big difference between establishing yourself as a professional player and doing so as Premier League footballer. Our Academy certainly doesn't have a great track record (although it has really only had proper investment for a few years) but I expect that most academies outside those of the very top clubs, will produce many many more professional footballers than they do players who are able to cut the mustard in the Premier League.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2018 13:32:10 GMT
Karim Rossi, Florent Cuvelier, Adam Vass Ryan Brunt, Ben Heneghan and Jimmy Phillips. That's more like it, but none of those made a single senior appearence, so the fact that they established themselves as pros would seem more to be in spite of their academy failure than because of it. I thought we were on about in general?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 15:23:28 GMT
That's more like it, but none of those made a single senior appearence, so the fact that they established themselves as pros would seem more to be in spite of their academy failure than because of it. I thought we were on about in general? The original post was whether our Academy - which the Coates family invested heavily in - is a success or failure, then whether the players that graduated from it were successes or failures. Then it narrowed down to a question of whether the players that failed at first became good pros anyway in their later endeavours.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2018 15:44:51 GMT
I thought we were on about in general? The original post was whether our Academy - which the Coates family invested heavily in - is a success or failure, then whether the players that graduated from it were successes or failures. Then it narrowed down to a question of whether the players that failed at first became good pros anyway in their later endeavours. I think it's way too soon to judge. The FA Youth Cup run was a great thing for the academy. As is having Verlinden, Edwards, Ngoy and now Campbell playing minutes for the first team. I would say that in the past 10 years we've managed to develop an ok amount of players who have made it as a pro. I think the standard is only getting better as the 4 players named above show and also how we do in the Staffs Senior Cup. I know that sounds a bit daft but previous teams would capitulate against teams of semi-pros who were streetwise. That hasn't happened for the last few years now and I think that's a big thing. It shows the standard of the football they are playing has moved and they overcome such challenges. It's getting a lot better and hopefully the investment will carry on if we go down.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 17:30:27 GMT
The original post was whether our Academy - which the Coates family invested heavily in - is a success or failure, then whether the players that graduated from it were successes or failures. Then it narrowed down to a question of whether the players that failed at first became good pros anyway in their later endeavours. I think it's way too soon to judge. The FA Youth Cup run was a great thing for the academy. As is having Verlinden, Edwards, Ngoy and now Campbell playing minutes for the first team. I would say that in the past 10 years we've managed to develop an ok amount of players who have made it as a pro. I think the standard is only getting better as the 4 players named above show and also how we do in the Staffs Senior Cup. I know that sounds a bit daft but previous teams would capitulate against teams of semi-pros who were streetwise. That hasn't happened for the last few years now and I think that's a big thing. It shows the standard of the football they are playing has moved and they overcome such challenges. It's getting a lot better and hopefully the investment will carry on if we go down. Campbell is not really an academy product. He came through the youth ranks at Citeh before signing for us in the autumn. The two Belgians have been promising talents, but the fact is they've played mere minutes for us. Verlinden has gone on loan at a German 2. Bundesliga team, but despite they being lower status he still hasn't played for the first team. Edwards will be proud of his matches - after all he's done more than his predecessor Shenton who never even touched the ball during his one minute cameo for us, despite still being at the club - but he'll have to imrpove much if he's to play further matches. Nonetheless we do have promising players, but the previous batch of players that included Moha and Molina never went beyond promising, and until the current batch do, then the academy cannot be called a success. It started 5-6 years ago, and a youth prospect's youth career lasts 3-4 years at most. If we are to reap anything at all,then results, i.e. players that can at the very least be regulars on the bench, will have to happen soon. If they don't it gets to be harder to believe that they ever will. In assessing its merits it's worth remembering that Pulis had absolutely no time for academy players, and Hughes was fairly much the same, at least until this summer he started making some of the right noises about using academy players but he still didn't use any, until Edwards was thrown to the lions.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2018 18:26:16 GMT
I think it's way too soon to judge. The FA Youth Cup run was a great thing for the academy. As is having Verlinden, Edwards, Ngoy and now Campbell playing minutes for the first team. I would say that in the past 10 years we've managed to develop an ok amount of players who have made it as a pro. I think the standard is only getting better as the 4 players named above show and also how we do in the Staffs Senior Cup. I know that sounds a bit daft but previous teams would capitulate against teams of semi-pros who were streetwise. That hasn't happened for the last few years now and I think that's a big thing. It shows the standard of the football they are playing has moved and they overcome such challenges. It's getting a lot better and hopefully the investment will carry on if we go down. Campbell is not really an academy product. He came through the youth ranks at Citeh before signing for us in the autumn. The two Belgians have been promising talents, but the fact is they've played mere minutes for us. Verlinden has gone on loan at a German 2. Bundesliga team, but despite they being lower status he still hasn't played for the first team. Edwards will be proud of his matches - after all he's done more than his predecessor Shenton who never even touched the ball during his one minute cameo for us, despite still being at the club - but he'll have to imrpove much if he's to play further matches. Nonetheless we do have promising players, but the previous batch of players that included Moha and Molina never went beyond promising, and until the current batch do, then the academy cannot be called a success. It started 5-6 years ago, and a youth prospect's youth career lasts 3-4 years at most. If we are to reap anything at all,then results, i.e. players that can at the very least be regulars on the bench, will have to happen soon. If they don't it gets to be harder to believe that they ever will. In assessing its merits it's worth remembering that Pulis had absolutely no time for academy players, and Hughes was fairly much the same, at least until this summer he started making some of the right noises about using academy players but he still didn't use any, until Edwards was thrown to the lions. Of course he is re Campbell. He's spent 2 seasons in our academy in some of the most important years. Re Verlinden, he's an 18/19 year old, playing in the German second division is good (once he gets fit). And I'd have him on the left over Choupo tbh. The 4 named above are all bloody good prospects and we can only hope all 4 make it here with us. I didn't say it was a success but we are achieving things that we hadn't done. It's slowly getting to where it should be. The current u18 are better than the team that reached last years semis too imo. In general we've produced players that are decent for the lower league and none league levels. That is changing.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 5:29:26 GMT
Campbell is not really an academy product. He came through the youth ranks at Citeh before signing for us in the autumn. The two Belgians have been promising talents, but the fact is they've played mere minutes for us. Verlinden has gone on loan at a German 2. Bundesliga team, but despite they being lower status he still hasn't played for the first team. Edwards will be proud of his matches - after all he's done more than his predecessor Shenton who never even touched the ball during his one minute cameo for us, despite still being at the club - but he'll have to imrpove much if he's to play further matches. Nonetheless we do have promising players, but the previous batch of players that included Moha and Molina never went beyond promising, and until the current batch do, then the academy cannot be called a success. It started 5-6 years ago, and a youth prospect's youth career lasts 3-4 years at most. If we are to reap anything at all,then results, i.e. players that can at the very least be regulars on the bench, will have to happen soon. If they don't it gets to be harder to believe that they ever will. In assessing its merits it's worth remembering that Pulis had absolutely no time for academy players, and Hughes was fairly much the same, at least until this summer he started making some of the right noises about using academy players but he still didn't use any, until Edwards was thrown to the lions. Of course he is re Campbell. He's spent 2 seasons in our academy in some of the most important years. Re Verlinden, he's an 18/19 year old, playing in the German second division is good (once he gets fit). And I'd have him on the left over Choupo tbh. The 4 named above are all bloody good prospects and we can only hope all 4 make it here with us. I didn't say it was a success but we are achieving things that we hadn't done. It's slowly getting to where it should be. The current u18 are better than the team that reached last years semis too imo. In general we've produced players that are decent for the lower league and none league levels. That is changing. That's good for those players, but the ultimate target for the Academy must be to produce players that are playing in our first team, perhaps not as first names on the team sheet but as regulars in the squad/bench. And we don't have any of those currently and haven't had any since Wilko. So the Academy as of Feb 28, 2018 is unsuccessful.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 28, 2018 8:18:22 GMT
Of course he is re Campbell. He's spent 2 seasons in our academy in some of the most important years. Re Verlinden, he's an 18/19 year old, playing in the German second division is good (once he gets fit). And I'd have him on the left over Choupo tbh. The 4 named above are all bloody good prospects and we can only hope all 4 make it here with us. I didn't say it was a success but we are achieving things that we hadn't done. It's slowly getting to where it should be. The current u18 are better than the team that reached last years semis too imo. In general we've produced players that are decent for the lower league and none league levels. That is changing. That's good for those players, but the ultimate target for the Academy must be to produce players that are playing in our first team, perhaps not as first names on the team sheet but as regulars in the squad/bench. And we don't have any of those currently and haven't had any since Wilko. So the Academy as of Feb 28, 2018 is unsuccessful. Shotton?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 13:37:57 GMT
That's good for those players, but the ultimate target for the Academy must be to produce players that are playing in our first team, perhaps not as first names on the team sheet but as regulars in the squad/bench. And we don't have any of those currently and haven't had any since Wilko. So the Academy as of Feb 28, 2018 is unsuccessful. Shotton? Was never a regular here and left the club sooner rather later. But he has established himself fully in the game.
|
|
|
Post by cheekymatt71 on Feb 28, 2018 14:05:15 GMT
Isnt the success of a football academy ultimately 80% about the scouting of young prospects?
We can have the best coaching and training facilities in the world but if we cant find and attract the best youngsters it doesnt matter.
Man City seem to be hoovering up a lot of young english talent (the likes of Phil Foden). Barcelona's academy La Masia clearly has great coaching talents but they still needed scouts to spot the likes of Messi growing up in Argentina
I would say it is more important to have the best scouts, than the best coaches. I think our scouting network is hit and miss at best.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 28, 2018 17:42:03 GMT
Was never a regular here and left the club sooner rather later. But he has established himself fully in the game. 48 PL games fits the bill imo.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 19:12:33 GMT
Was never a regular here and left the club sooner rather later. But he has established himself fully in the game. 48 PL games fits the bill imo. Most of which was as a sub.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 28, 2018 19:20:37 GMT
48 PL games fits the bill imo. Most of which was as a sub. "If we are to reap anything at all,then results, i.e. players that can at the very least be regulars on the bench"
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 20:31:34 GMT
Most of which was as a sub. "If we are to reap anything at all,then results, i.e. players that can at the very least be regulars on the bench" Yeah and then he was sold making a mockery of the efforts of trying to establish him as a Stoke player.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 28, 2018 20:33:00 GMT
"If we are to reap anything at all,then results, i.e. players that can at the very least be regulars on the bench" Yeah and then he was sold making a mockery of the efforts of trying to establish him as a Stoke player. Haha if you say so.
|
|
|
Post by magwitch on Mar 12, 2018 17:09:45 GMT
WBA U23 1 Stoke City U23 1
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Mar 16, 2018 16:33:32 GMT
|
|
|
Post by liathroid on Mar 16, 2018 18:32:05 GMT
Murphy and Collins called up for the Ireland u17 Euro qualifers
|
|
|
Post by liathroid on Mar 16, 2018 19:29:57 GMT
|
|
|
Post by liathroid on Mar 17, 2018 14:09:41 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 20:56:08 GMT
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 22, 2018 20:23:58 GMT
A pretty good week for our youth internationals so far.
Nathan Collins captained ROI u17s to a 3-0 win over Macedonia.
Max Murphy played in that too.
Joe Bursik played in a 4-0 win over Qatar for the England u18s.
Thibaud Verlinden scored for Belgium u19s in a 3-2 loss.
Julian Ngoy scored for Belgium u21s in a 4-1 over the Netherlands.
Not sure if any others have played.
|
|
|
Post by fca47 on Mar 23, 2018 16:25:12 GMT
Seems to be an improvment in the u23's since Wade Elliot took over. What do other people think.
|
|
|
Post by Northy on Mar 23, 2018 16:27:46 GMT
a decent result, and our u18's were the first ones to beat gerrards lot weren't they?
|
|