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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jun 25, 2017 8:24:19 GMT
I heard this morning that the cladding was not the only failure, it was discovered that works at the building carried out over a number of years failed to put adequate fire stopping in place.
Putting that in simple terms, if a fire got hold in the building, it would have gone up in flames on both the outside and the outside. It would not surprise me in the least, if this is what happened at Grenfell.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 25, 2017 8:29:56 GMT
The 31 year old leader of Camden council clearly lacks experience and common sense. As has been stated already, a thorough risk assessment of the hazard should have been undertaken which could have put in place many control measures that would have allowed for a rapid and safe evacuation of the block. With a register of who is in the building at any given time, fire patrols and temporary fire fighting equipment installed on every floor would considerably reduce the risk. Of course human rightists would cry foul at any register of people regardless of its principles. To put it in health and safety terms risk is defined as the potential for death or injury from a hazard multiplied by the chance of it occurring. Clearly the potential for death or serious injury is high but the chance of it occurring is, historically speaking, very low. Therefore the risk to residents is probably low. But let's not allow well founded health and safety hazard assessment procedure get in the way of political point scoring and oneupmanship. I agree around the lack of experience.....many people don't get risk management. They think it is removing all risk which is the easy option;proper risk management is putting in mitigation and embracing and understanding risk. Looking at the leader of this councils background, the politics aspect may well have played a part. Be interesting to see how other councils react and what differences in approach come out between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jun 25, 2017 8:49:10 GMT
The 31 year old leader of Camden council clearly lacks experience and common sense. As has been stated already, a thorough risk assessment of the hazard should have been undertaken which could have put in place many control measures that would have allowed for a rapid and safe evacuation of the block. With a register of who is in the building at any given time, fire patrols and temporary fire fighting equipment installed on every floor would considerably reduce the risk. Of course human rightists would cry foul at any register of people regardless of its principles. To put it in health and safety terms risk is defined as the potential for death or injury from a hazard multiplied by the chance of it occurring. Clearly the potential for death or serious injury is high but the chance of it occurring is, historically speaking, very low. Therefore the risk to residents is probably low. But let's not allow well founded health and safety hazard assessment procedure get in the way of political point scoring and oneupmanship. I agree around the lack of experience.....many people don't get risk management. They think it is removing all risk which is the easy option;proper risk management is putting in mitigation and embracing and understanding risk. Looking at the leader of this councils background, the politics aspect may well have played a part. Be interesting to see how other councils react and what differences in approach come out between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem. The cynic in me also thinks that by advising tenants to evacuate their homes and providing temporary shelter in sports halls etc is the cheaper option and absolves the council of any further responsibilities regarding their immediate safety, whilst apparently giving the council leader a perceived point scoring and political moral high ground. As you say it will be interesting, and will be watched closely by those wishing to stir up anger or sell their newspapers, to see how the other 15 reported councils react.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 10:34:42 GMT
The 31 year old leader of Camden council clearly lacks experience and common sense. As has been stated already, a thorough risk assessment of the hazard should have been undertaken which could have put in place many control measures that would have allowed for a rapid and safe evacuation of the block. With a register of who is in the building at any given time, fire patrols and temporary fire fighting equipment installed on every floor would considerably reduce the risk. Of course human rightists would cry foul at any register of people regardless of its principles. To put it in health and safety terms risk is defined as the potential for death or injury from a hazard multiplied by the chance of it occurring. Clearly the potential for death or serious injury is high but the chance of it occurring is, historically speaking, very low. Therefore the risk to residents is probably low. But let's not allow well founded health and safety hazard assessment procedure get in the way of political point scoring and oneupmanship. I agree around the lack of experience.....many people don't get risk management. They think it is removing all risk which is the easy option;proper risk management is putting in mitigation and embracing and understanding risk. Looking at the leader of this councils background, the politics aspect may well have played a part. Be interesting to see how other councils react and what differences in approach come out between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem. Should be no difference as the fire safety should be a national independent body with the power to enforce safety. If they refuse to issue a safety certificate for a building then the local authority will have no choice on bringing it up to scratch before letting units. Just look at what happens in Stoke when the council is given a free hand. They build an unwanted eyesore in Hanley while the house stocks are in a shocking state. Their priorities are so fu**ed up it's untrue. Trying to pretend that we live in a City of Culture when we live in a City of pot holes, traffic jams and slums. A few hanging baskets doesn't mask the boarded up town centres that have become a symbol of a failed City Council bereft of an idea apart from spending every penny they get up Hanley. I'm just surprised that Tesco hasn't got it's own charity shop inside as they seem to be the only type of shop that Longton has now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:20:41 GMT
They should have lined a load of static caravans for the people to live in rather than a sports hall. They are still taking the cheaper option. Thought a cruise liner on the Thames myself or at least HMS Belfast The point is really that many people seem to be punching above their weight in positions they are clearly out of their depth or they just don't give a shit because it doesn't affect them. I agree that people should leave their flats whilst work has to be done to make their homes safe, but fuck me they could handle this so much better. To me putting air beds on a floor in a local sports hall really is taking the piss and very much insulting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:29:01 GMT
Have you not seen it was the fire service who could not guarantee the safety of the residents as soon as they said that the council had no choice!! Its not the job of the fire service to guarantee safety. That is down to a redident of any building by using your appliances correctly, not falling asleep while smoking, not leaving stoves unattended and a few more precautions. We have sunk into a society where responsibility is always someone elses. The public can only do so much to prevent fire, some things are out of their hands, like lightning storms, and these buildings might become targets for terrorists.
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 25, 2017 11:30:54 GMT
I agree around the lack of experience.....many people don't get risk management. They think it is removing all risk which is the easy option;proper risk management is putting in mitigation and embracing and understanding risk. Looking at the leader of this councils background, the politics aspect may well have played a part. Be interesting to see how other councils react and what differences in approach come out between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem. The cynic in me also thinks that by advising tenants to evacuate their homes and providing temporary shelter in sports halls etc is the cheaper option and absolves the council of any further responsibilities regarding their immediate safety, whilst apparently giving the council leader a perceived point scoring and political moral high ground. As you say it will be interesting, and will be watched closely by those wishing to stir up anger or sell their newspapers, to see how the other 15 reported councils react. The sports hall was a stop gap for the council as they needed to act fast as the fire brigade told them too they then have made the move compulsory this morning the council have not taken a cheap option as the residents have been put up in hotels quickly the problem was that a lot of hotels don't take pets and those places took longer to find again I will repeat it was the fire brigade that took the decision and the council acted on it quite quickly no matter which political party run the council you have to praise them for the quickness they reacted to the fire brigade.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:43:53 GMT
The cynic in me also thinks that by advising tenants to evacuate their homes and providing temporary shelter in sports halls etc is the cheaper option and absolves the council of any further responsibilities regarding their immediate safety, whilst apparently giving the council leader a perceived point scoring and political moral high ground. As you say it will be interesting, and will be watched closely by those wishing to stir up anger or sell their newspapers, to see how the other 15 reported councils react. The sports hall was a stop gap for the council as they needed to act fast as the fire brigade told them too they then have made the move compulsory this morning the council have not taken a cheap option as the residents have been put up in hotels quickly the problem was that a lot of hotels don't take pets and those places took longer to find again I will repeat it was the fire brigade that took the decision and the council acted on it quite quickly no matter which political party run the council you have to praise them for the quickness they reacted to the fire brigade. They should have been prepared for the building failing and should have had hotels rooms prepared that day. As much as you are trying to dress it up it's another poorly executed plan.
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 25, 2017 11:48:04 GMT
I agree around the lack of experience.....many people don't get risk management. They think it is removing all risk which is the easy option;proper risk management is putting in mitigation and embracing and understanding risk. Looking at the leader of this councils background, the politics aspect may well have played a part. Be interesting to see how other councils react and what differences in approach come out between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem. Should be no difference as the fire safety should be a national independent body with the power to enforce safety. If they refuse to issue a safety certificate for a building then the local authority will have no choice on bringing it up to scratch before letting units. Just look at what happens in Stoke when the council is given a free hand. They build an unwanted eyesore in Hanley while the house stocks are in a shocking state. Their priorities are so fu**ed up it's untrue. Trying to pretend that we live in a City of Culture when we live in a City of pot holes, traffic jams and slums. A few hanging baskets doesn't mask the boarded up town centres that have become a symbol of a failed City Council bereft of an idea apart from spending every penny they get up Hanley. I'm just surprised that Tesco hasn't got it's own charity shop inside as they seem to be the only type of shop that Longton has now.
One of the biggest problems for town and city's on boarded up shops, etc is the owners and there insistent on high rents if they don't get them they tend to leave the shops empty, also big chains will own property rather than let competitors move in this again has a detrimental effect, also investment banks buy the property as an investment and to them sitting on the shop empty or full doesn't matter to them. decay and empty shops in a town centre has a spiralling effect to a city. Decay in the pottery/ coal industry has been detrimental to the area and capital investment has tended to come from eu grants, post brexit a lot of this will dry up. Lack of investment by all governments but worse over the last 7 years has seen a continued decline in areas this together with under investment by loans to companies has been detrimental to small comp[anise and the their start up. the only way out of this is to invest in areas and one party proposes this, this will jump start economies in areas like stoke and will enable councils through more income (from business rents etc) to invest more in local services etc.
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Post by essexstokey on Jun 25, 2017 11:58:32 GMT
The sports hall was a stop gap for the council as they needed to act fast as the fire brigade told them too they then have made the move compulsory this morning the council have not taken a cheap option as the residents have been put up in hotels quickly the problem was that a lot of hotels don't take pets and those places took longer to find again I will repeat it was the fire brigade that took the decision and the council acted on it quite quickly no matter which political party run the council you have to praise them for the quickness they reacted to the fire brigade. They should have been prepared for the building failing and should have had hotels rooms prepared that day. As much as you are trying to dress it up it's another poorly executed plan. They had a lot of rooms but not all and as the decision was taken late in the day I think they did well and the women with her dog was housed the next day the council said last night that it will probably take 2 weeks to change it, they also found that the work that they had paid for in the past had not been full filled by the company hence them investigating legal proceedings against them the problem may come that if its the same business that did the cladding that this business was put into liquidation by the owners to avoid debts so getting any money back may be hard therefore if it can be proved that the directors knowingly did this they could face criminal prosecution
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Post by Northy on Jun 25, 2017 12:22:28 GMT
I heard this morning that the cladding was not the only failure, it was discovered that works at the building carried out over a number of years failed to put adequate fire stopping in place. Putting that in simple terms, if a fire got hold in the building, it would have gone up in flames on both the outside and the outside. It would not surprise me in the least, if this is what happened at Grenfell. Yep, I mentioned early on on the Grenfell tower thread about the lack of fire stopping you see after trades have been into do refurb works, they just bash through walls and barriers, and dont put the fire stopping back, or just fill it with expanding foam which isnt fire proof.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jun 25, 2017 17:27:43 GMT
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