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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 19, 2022 18:19:37 GMT
Brexit has become a disaster, not because we left the EU, but because the ERG insisted on a hard Brexit. So, between the ERG and Farage, they've fucked us over big and proper because we could have negotiated a much better deal had it not been for extreme right-wing ideology. And as usual, those right-wing ideologues haven't been affected while everybody except big business have, including our brilliant small business enterprises, many who have relocated to the EU or are now not trading with the EU because so much red tape is involved. Nobody can defend the position we find ourselves in now. Any damage in leaving is self inflicted. OS. Great post. Had we slowly and carefully left the EU, moving to perhaps EEA membership for example, we could have had time to take stock. That’s what a close vote of 52/48 suggested we should do. But the hard right of the tory party who have always driven brexit caused havoc, making any sensible change to our relationship with the EU impossible. And it isn’t the very rich hard right of the tories that will suffer their racist ideology. It is everyday men and women across the nation, and, most sadly, our children, who got no say in this at all.
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Post by Davef on Nov 19, 2022 18:40:29 GMT
Brexit has become a disaster, not because we left the EU, but because the ERG insisted on a hard Brexit. So, between the ERG and Farage, they've fucked us over big and proper because we could have negotiated a much better deal had it not been for extreme right-wing ideology. And as usual, those right-wing ideologues haven't been affected while everybody except big business have, including our brilliant small business enterprises, many who have relocated to the EU or are now not trading with the EU because so much red tape is involved. Nobody can defend the position we find ourselves in now. Any damage in leaving is self inflicted. OS. Great post. Had we slowly and carefully left the EU, moving to perhaps EEA membership for example, we could have had time to take stock. That’s what a close vote of 52/48 suggested we should do. But the hard right of the tory party who have always driven brexit caused havoc, making any sensible change to our relationship with the EU impossible. And it isn’t the very rich hard right of the tories that will suffer their racist ideology. It is everyday men and women across the nation, and, most sadly, our children, who got no say in this at all. MPs had the opportunity to vote for an EEA option in Brexit talks but firmly rejected it. news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-withdrawal-bill-mps-reject-eea-membership-after-brexit-in-key-vote-11404084
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Post by OldStokie on Nov 19, 2022 21:48:44 GMT
Great post. Had we slowly and carefully left the EU, moving to perhaps EEA membership for example, we could have had time to take stock. That’s what a close vote of 52/48 suggested we should do. But the hard right of the tory party who have always driven brexit caused havoc, making any sensible change to our relationship with the EU impossible. And it isn’t the very rich hard right of the tories that will suffer their racist ideology. It is everyday men and women across the nation, and, most sadly, our children, who got no say in this at all. MPs had the opportunity to vote for an EEA option in Brexit talks but firmly rejected it. news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-withdrawal-bill-mps-reject-eea-membership-after-brexit-in-key-vote-11404084That would have been the Norway Option, David, which would have included freedom of movement. It would never have worked because freedom of movement was the main driver of the Brexit result. Hence why it was voted down by such a large margin of 327 to 126. There were other options such as the Ukraine Option (which does not include freedom of movement) or we could have negotiated a bespoke agreement. What we eventually chose is almost akin to a WTO deal and had it not been for the matter of the peace agreement in NI, it would have been had we left it to the ERG. The Yanks' emphasis on us not breaking that was a step too far for even the ERG. They still hanker for a deal with the USA. M.
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Post by wannabee on Nov 20, 2022 2:11:50 GMT
Brexit has become a disaster, not because we left the EU, but because the ERG insisted on a hard Brexit. So, between the ERG and Farage, they've fucked us over big and proper because we could have negotiated a much better deal had it not been for extreme right-wing ideology. And as usual, those right-wing ideologues haven't been affected while everybody except big business have, including our brilliant small business enterprises, many who have relocated to the EU or are now not trading with the EU because so much red tape is involved. Nobody can defend the position we find ourselves in now. Any damage in leaving is self inflicted. OS. Brexit, as a majority of people are now beginning to realise, was always going to be a disaster What you are proposing could have been done would only have been a mitigation of that disaster and as you point out would not have been accepted by the Libertarian Wing of the Conservative Party. In some ways I pity them their stupidity as their lack of brains and ideas led them to believe the true idealogs in Right Wing Think Tanks like IEA who themselves are funded by Crank Billionaires with a legacy to cement. The frenzy of "Brexit Victory" was intoxicating and emboldened them to believe in their invincibility to impose their will. It was fed by Snake Oil Salesmen like Shanker Singham and others who would, for a fee, tell them whatever they wished to hear. The three biggest lies of course were firstly that a "Deal" with the EU would be the easiest Trade Deal ever, after all "they" needed us more then we needed them. Free access to the Single Market would continue just as before This overlooked the fundamental principles of the Single Market to protect its members to the exclusion of third parties UK simply didn't believe this would happen (and it has hurt EU Countries) and tried to appeal directly to try and negotiate with Germany and France and were simply referred to the Commission The second biggest lie related to the Customs Union, specifically, but not entirely related to NI. EU put this front and centre of negotiations and refused to discuss a TCA until it was resolved. May's Deal the "Backstop" protected the Union but restricted UK hands in future Trade Deals (particularly US) which ERG would never agree. Bozo's Deal put a Border down the Irish Sea (which he and several Ministers denied) and collapsed NI Parliament The non full implementation of Protocol has caused continued friction and non cooperation since. It appears more adults are in the negotiating room currently and a solution may be found, we'll see. Another great irony of "Taking Back Control" is that from Day 1 EU imposed Border Checks on all goods entering EU from UK Conversely UK has not yet imposed any checks on Goods from EU entering UK. Several proposed dated have come and gone, I'm not sure there is even a date currently when it may happen The third lie/promise was that the big prize in Brexit was a Trade Deal with US This of course is not going to happen under any US Administration until lie No 2 is resolved If/when it is, it's quite possible it may happen There will of course be strings attached most notably Hormone Treated food and NHS. The former I suppose people will be free to choose to eat or not The second who knows what might happen. Regarding food it will merely be another slow death blow to UK Farmers ((along with Aus/NZ deals) and would put a complete stop to any Food Exports to EU in fear of contamination of aforementioned Hormone stuff. This is rapidly in decline anyway For practical purposes the new Sunak administration is putting the acceptable face of Conservatism on display but it is alien to many of their MPs and supporters but required after the Lunatics crashed the Economy and is an attempt to not be wiped out at next Election and potentially maybe even win. The Libertarian Lunatics have not gone away just hibernating after one of their apostles crashed the Economy in just six weeks in office They feel no shame or responsibility for this as like Brexit it's not the Ideology that's wrong it's the Execution
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 7:46:00 GMT
Great post. Had we slowly and carefully left the EU, moving to perhaps EEA membership for example, we could have had time to take stock. That’s what a close vote of 52/48 suggested we should do. But the hard right of the tory party who have always driven brexit caused havoc, making any sensible change to our relationship with the EU impossible. And it isn’t the very rich hard right of the tories that will suffer their racist ideology. It is everyday men and women across the nation, and, most sadly, our children, who got no say in this at all. MPs had the opportunity to vote for an EEA option in Brexit talks but firmly rejected it. news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-withdrawal-bill-mps-reject-eea-membership-after-brexit-in-key-vote-11404084Yes, they firmly rejected every option in the indicative votes. But our undemocratic system meant they could not vote for their favourite of the options, which would have at least led to an outcome and not the right wing coup that followed and the disastrous outcome of brexit we now have, that I guarantee virtually nobody had in mind when voting leave.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2022 8:09:28 GMT
Yes, they firmly rejected every option in the indicative votes. But our undemocratic system meant they could not vote for their favourite of the options, which would have at least led to an outcome and not the right wing coup that followed and the disastrous outcome of brexit we now have, that I guarantee virtually nobody had in mind when voting leave. Well, waga did. He wanted WTO rules and nothing to do with the EU at all. Never mind how much more damage that would have caused, additional to what we're already seeing, nor how much more suffering that would have inflicted on businesses and people. Thankfully, as the reality of Brexit becomes ever clearer, more and more people are realising the nature of this historic mistake. Which gives hope for the future but probably not for many years after most of the Brexiteers have gone off to the 1950s in the sky. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 8:17:49 GMT
Yes, they firmly rejected every option in the indicative votes. But our undemocratic system meant they could not vote for their favourite of the options, which would have at least led to an outcome and not the right wing coup that followed and the disastrous outcome of brexit we now have, that I guarantee virtually nobody had in mind when voting leave. Well, waga did. He wanted WTO rules and nothing to do with the EU at all. Never mind how much more damage that would have caused, additional to what we're already seeing, nor how much more suffering that would have inflicted on businesses and people. Thankfully, as the reality of Brexit becomes ever clearer, more and more people are realising the nature of this historic mistake. Which gives hope for the future but probably not for many years after most of the Brexiteers have gone off to the 1950s in the sky. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2022 8:29:39 GMT
Well, waga did. He wanted WTO rules and nothing to do with the EU at all. Never mind how much more damage that would have caused, additional to what we're already seeing, nor how much more suffering that would have inflicted on businesses and people. Thankfully, as the reality of Brexit becomes ever clearer, more and more people are realising the nature of this historic mistake. Which gives hope for the future but probably not for many years after most of the Brexiteers have gone off to the 1950s in the sky. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. I don't think he gave much of a shit about the consequences, just wanted out. This is the stupidity of the whole thing: nobody knew what it meant. And now it's clearer, what a surprise that more and more people think it was the wrong thing to do.
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 8:33:13 GMT
Well, waga did. He wanted WTO rules and nothing to do with the EU at all. Never mind how much more damage that would have caused, additional to what we're already seeing, nor how much more suffering that would have inflicted on businesses and people. Thankfully, as the reality of Brexit becomes ever clearer, more and more people are realising the nature of this historic mistake. Which gives hope for the future but probably not for many years after most of the Brexiteers have gone off to the 1950s in the sky. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. No I didn’t want a trade border down the Irish Sea The eu could stick one where they wished But all goods between NI and mainland should of remained the same As for a earlier poster saying I would of been happier with a no deal brexit to right I believe If we’d of left in 2016 with no deal within months the eu would of come to the table with a set of proposals better than what we have now The fundamental problem to me is we allowed politicians to define brexit when the majority had no wish to accept the will of the British people
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 8:39:28 GMT
I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. I don't think he gave much of a shit about the consequences, just wanted out. This is the stupidity of the whole thing: nobody knew what it meant. And now it's clearer, what a surprise that more and more people think it was the wrong thing to do. True right I wanted out And the current consequences are very much down to the mealy mouthed politicians paying lip service to brexit rather than enter negotiations with a United strength
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 8:45:34 GMT
Well, waga did. He wanted WTO rules and nothing to do with the EU at all. Never mind how much more damage that would have caused, additional to what we're already seeing, nor how much more suffering that would have inflicted on businesses and people. Thankfully, as the reality of Brexit becomes ever clearer, more and more people are realising the nature of this historic mistake. Which gives hope for the future but probably not for many years after most of the Brexiteers have gone off to the 1950s in the sky. whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. Yes I voted knowing in the short term I and the country could well be poorer To achieve gain sometimes you have to experience short term pain I voted leave so in years to come my grandchildren can live in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country Not a inward facing protectionist undemocratic cabal
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 10:17:00 GMT
I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. Yes I voted knowing in the short term I and the country could well be poorer To achieve gain sometimes you have to experience short term pain I voted leave so in years to come my grandchildren can live in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country Not a inward facing protectionist undemocratic cabal The irony! That backfired then!
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 10:20:08 GMT
I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. No I didn’t want a trade border down the Irish Sea The eu could stick one where they wished But all goods between NI and mainland should of remained the same As for a earlier poster saying I would of been happier with a no deal brexit to right I believe If we’d of left in 2016 with no deal within months the eu would of come to the table with a set of proposals better than what we have now The fundamental problem to me is we allowed politicians to define brexit when the majority had no wish to accept the will of the British people I think the fundamental problem was nobody knew what the leave vote was actually for. We know it was against EU membership. That left the politicians to then define what brexit actually meant. With a slim majority voting to leave, it is clear that the will of the people was to leave the EU but have an extremely close relationship. What we now have is the equivalent of perhaps a 80/20 vote to leave. Which is part of the problem. Even though I am completely against brexit, it could have worked out better than it has done if it had been done in a way to reflect the vote rather than to please 50 far right nutter MPs in the tory party
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 10:29:34 GMT
Yes I voted knowing in the short term I and the country could well be poorer To achieve gain sometimes you have to experience short term pain I voted leave so in years to come my grandchildren can live in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country Not a inward facing protectionist undemocratic cabal The irony! That backfired then! Not yet it hasn’t But it’s going to take time and with vision Wether it happens may be in the laps of the gods Who really knows
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 10:53:01 GMT
The irony! That backfired then! Not yet it hasn’t But it’s going to take time and with vision Wether it happens may be in the laps of the gods Who really knows It is more the irony of you, who had the benefit of living in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country, voting to leave the EU to achieve what you already had the benefit of for your grandchildren (and against the overwhelming majority of young people’s wishes) and we are now less prosperous, less free, a less dynamic country and less world facing as a result! You have achieved the absolute opposite for your grandchildren. Well done.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Nov 20, 2022 11:36:26 GMT
I see the Sunday Times is this morning reporting that Sunak is looking to move us to a Swiss Style relationship with the EU.
In response Simon Clarke - an ERG member has said "I very much hope and believe this isn’t something under consideration. We settled the question of leaving the European Union, definitively, in 2019."
Another day another Tory squabble over Europe.............
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 11:41:51 GMT
Not yet it hasn’t But it’s going to take time and with vision Wether it happens may be in the laps of the gods Who really knows It is more the irony of you, who had the benefit of living in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country, voting to leave the EU to achieve what you already had the benefit of for your grandchildren (and against the overwhelming majority of young people’s wishes) and we are now less prosperous, less free, a less dynamic country and less world facing as a result! You have achieved the absolute opposite for your grandchildren. Well done. You believe what you wish that is your right I will believe what I wish This country was not free it was trapped in a undemocratic cabal run by non elected officials Who’s eyes were only facing inwards Trying to keep control and using protectionism to maintain there status quo And yes I agree well done I will applaud myself and the other 52 % of the British public Who saw the light And returned this country it’s freedom
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Post by toppercorner on Nov 20, 2022 12:00:34 GMT
if you want a bit of a smile on a sunday, you can do no worse than watching martin daubney see the results of a Gbeebies poll on social media this morning, regarding brexit.
pisser.
and after the break
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Post by wannabee on Nov 20, 2022 12:02:57 GMT
I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. No I didn’t want a trade border down the Irish Sea The eu could stick one where they wished But all goods between NI and mainland should of remained the same As for a earlier poster saying I would of been happier with a no deal brexit to right I believe If we’d of left in 2016 with no deal within months the eu would of come to the table with a set of proposals better than what we have now The fundamental problem to me is we allowed politicians to define brexit when the majority had no wish to accept the will of the British people It is this sort or arrogant preposterous thinking that has got us to this mess. I call it the "they need us more than we need them crowd" If it were true why was Vote Leave telling everyone pre Vote that a Deal with EU was going to be the easiest one ever in the World. The message put out by Vote Leave was that everything with EU would be more or less the same, but UK would be doing all these marvellous extra deals (where are they?) With regard to the Border down the Irish sea UK had a duty to honour an International Agreement it signed n 1998 and despite fanciful solutions being put forward none were workable outside Customs Union. The solution you propose would have broken that Agreement and very likely have led to bloodshed
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Nov 20, 2022 12:06:11 GMT
It is more the irony of you, who had the benefit of living in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country, voting to leave the EU to achieve what you already had the benefit of for your grandchildren (and against the overwhelming majority of young people’s wishes) and we are now less prosperous, less free, a less dynamic country and less world facing as a result! You have achieved the absolute opposite for your grandchildren. Well done. You believe what you wish that is your right I will believe what I wish This country was not free it was trapped in a undemocratic cabal run by non elected officials Who’s eyes were only facing inwards Trying to keep control and using protectionism to maintain there status quo And yes I agree well done I will applaud myself and the other 52 % of the British public Who saw the light And returned this country it’s freedom 52% of 'the British Public' did not vote leave.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2022 12:16:01 GMT
I’m not sure he wanted a trade border down the Irish Sea and no government in Northern Ireland. Did he also knowingly vote to be poorer in real terms? I doubt it. Yes I voted knowing in the short term I and the country could well be poorer To achieve gain sometimes you have to experience short term pain I voted leave so in years to come my grandchildren can live in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country Not a inward facing protectionist undemocratic cabal They're moving to Germany, are they?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2022 12:23:51 GMT
if you want a bit of a smile on a sunday, you can do no worse than watching martin daubney see the results of a Gbeebies poll on social media this morning, regarding brexit. pisser. and after the break No idea what Angela Rippon is doing on GB News but well done her for forcing that arsehole to say what he couldn't bear to say "GB News viewers would like to change their minds". If GB News viewers think that no wonder so many others around the country feel the same. Time to wake up, Brexiteers, and realise you were conned just to keep the Tories together.
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 12:26:56 GMT
You believe what you wish that is your right I will believe what I wish This country was not free it was trapped in a undemocratic cabal run by non elected officials Who’s eyes were only facing inwards Trying to keep control and using protectionism to maintain there status quo And yes I agree well done I will applaud myself and the other 52 % of the British public Who saw the light And returned this country it’s freedom 52% of 'the British Public' did not vote leave. 52 % who could be arsed to vote did
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2022 12:30:08 GMT
Yes I voted knowing in the short term I and the country could well be poorer To achieve gain sometimes you have to experience short term pain I voted leave so in years to come my grandchildren can live in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country Not a inward facing protectionist undemocratic cabal They're moving to Germany, are they? No I’m sure when there old enough to flee their nest The true benefits of brexit will of been achieved And they will all be happy to remain in this country Thanking me for my foresight
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Nov 20, 2022 12:39:47 GMT
52% of 'the British Public' did not vote leave. 52 % who could be arsed to vote did And there's part of your problem. An extreme version of a once in a generation change has been inflicted on two thirds of the electorate who didn't even vote for a mild version. Add to that amongst that third who did there wasn't and stil isn't any consensus of what was wanted let alone a plan to get there and there's now more arguements amongst leavers than there is remainers (As the boss of next said last week "I haven't got the Brexit I wanted" - doesn't seem many have). So a minority continue to fall out amongst themselves whilst the rest of us can only stand and watch the damage pile up (or fuck off if we can afford it). The irony is because of all this a far bigger consensus is forming that it was a all a bad move - and that's only going to grow.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2022 12:43:38 GMT
They're moving to Germany, are they? No I’m sure when there old enough to flee their nest The true benefits of brexit will of been achieved And they will all be happy to remain in this country Thanking me for my foresight I think they'll be cursing you. Daft old grandad was all in favour of this shite we've been left to deal with.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 12:49:24 GMT
It is more the irony of you, who had the benefit of living in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country, voting to leave the EU to achieve what you already had the benefit of for your grandchildren (and against the overwhelming majority of young people’s wishes) and we are now less prosperous, less free, a less dynamic country and less world facing as a result! You have achieved the absolute opposite for your grandchildren. Well done. You believe what you wish that is your right I will believe what I wish This country was not free it was trapped in a undemocratic cabal run by non elected officials Who’s eyes were only facing inwards Trying to keep control and using protectionism to maintain there status quo And yes I agree well done I will applaud myself and the other 52 % of the British public Who saw the light And returned this country it’s freedom Except for the fact there are only 28 unelected law makers as part of the EU and around 800 here! Our eyes are now focused inwards just in on the UK, and not including the EU. It’s sad. We have lost huge freedoms about working and living. So we are less free. We have awful governance, elected with an archaic sustem which is very undemocratic and unrepresentative.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2022 12:50:03 GMT
Yes I voted knowing in the short term I and the country could well be poorer To achieve gain sometimes you have to experience short term pain I voted leave so in years to come my grandchildren can live in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country Not a inward facing protectionist undemocratic cabal They're moving to Germany, are they? They would need a visa to do so now.
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Post by wannabee on Nov 20, 2022 13:33:37 GMT
It is more the irony of you, who had the benefit of living in a prosperous free dynamic world facing country, voting to leave the EU to achieve what you already had the benefit of for your grandchildren (and against the overwhelming majority of young people’s wishes) and we are now less prosperous, less free, a less dynamic country and less world facing as a result! You have achieved the absolute opposite for your grandchildren. Well done. You believe what you wish that is your right I will believe what I wish This country was not free it was trapped in a undemocratic cabal run by non elected officialsWho’s eyes were only facing inwards Trying to keep control and using protectionism to maintain there status quo And yes I agree well done I will applaud myself and the other 52 % of the British public Who saw the light And returned this country it’s freedom A Cabal is a Secret Political Clique or Faction I do not agree with this description being applied to EU Nevertheless, how would you characterise the shadowy IEA who's Doctrine and Insidious influence recently crashed the UK Economy and who have no accountability or route to sanction?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 20, 2022 21:39:09 GMT
if you want a bit of a smile on a sunday, you can do no worse than watching martin daubney see the results of a Gbeebies poll on social media this morning, regarding brexit. pisser. and after the break To quote Budweiser ... "well, this is awkward!" 😄
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