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Post by oggyoggy on Aug 4, 2022 6:41:47 GMT
You still deny the importance of the value of a currency. What if the pound continues to devalue and it is parity with the euro, or less? What if we start using £50 notes as wallpaper because it is cheaper than buying wallpaper if a currency devalues enough? The value of the pound and the value exports produce for businesses and individuals is very important. You know that. Else you wouldn’t have quoted the tweet. Who denied the importance of the value of the currency I said your conversion to euro amounts was irrelevant. The value of exports is given by the ONS figures rather than accept they continue to hold up you attempted some weird conversion to euros to try and prove they have fallen. If you have more money in your pocket than you did 5 years ago but it buys less than the lower sum you had from 5 years ago then your money is worth less than the smaller sum you had 5 years ago.
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Post by oggyoggy on Aug 4, 2022 6:42:25 GMT
You still deny the importance of the value of a currency. What if the pound continues to devalue and it is parity with the euro, or less? What if we start using £50 notes as wallpaper because it is cheaper than buying wallpaper if a currency devalues enough? The value of the pound and the value exports produce for businesses and individuals is very important. You know that. Else you wouldn’t have quoted the tweet. Who denied the importance of the value of the currency I said your conversion to euro amounts was irrelevant. The value of exports is given by the ONS figures rather than accept they continue to hold up you attempted some weird conversion to euros to try and prove they have fallen. If you have more money in your pocket than you did 5 years ago but it buys less than the lower sum you had from 5 years ago then your money is worth less than the smaller sum you had 5 years ago. Either way, brexit has been rubbish so far
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 4, 2022 10:04:23 GMT
Who denied the importance of the value of the currency I said your conversion to euro amounts was irrelevant. The value of exports is given by the ONS figures rather than accept they continue to hold up you attempted some weird conversion to euros to try and prove they have fallen. If you have more money in your pocket than you did 5 years ago but it buys less than the lower sum you had from 5 years ago then your money is worth less than the smaller sum you had 5 years ago. Either way, brexit has been rubbish so far Your argument seems to be a variation of if I get a £5k payrise but I get €100 less when I exchange my holiday money I M worse off than I was before, a quite barmy argument that ignores so many things, UK companies mostly operate in GBP, they pay wages, rent, fuel, heating and overpriced lawyers in GBP so there only interest in the exchange rate is how it impacts sales which even you finally accept have increased, yes it may impact the price of any imports of goods used in production / manufacturing but the fact exports have held up shows this is not significant or companies moved to local or international suppliers.
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Post by oggyoggy on Aug 4, 2022 10:17:19 GMT
If you have more money in your pocket than you did 5 years ago but it buys less than the lower sum you had from 5 years ago then your money is worth less than the smaller sum you had 5 years ago. Either way, brexit has been rubbish so far Your argument seems to be a variation of if I get a £5k payrise but I get €100 less when I exchange my holiday money I M worse off than I was before, a quite barmy argument that ignores so many things, UK companies mostly operate in GBP, they pay wages, rent, fuel, heating and overpriced lawyers in GBP so there only interest in the exchange rate is how it impacts sales which even you finally accept have increased, yes it may impact the price of any imports of goods used in production / manufacturing but the fact exports have held up shows this is not significant or companies moved to local or international suppliers. It is stagnant even in your best case scenario. The reality is much worse: obr.uk/box/the-latest-evidence-on-the-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-trade/
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 4, 2022 10:21:22 GMT
If I can but in on this currency debate,
Just to point out that over 90% of British companies do not export and most exports go to none EU countries.
People generally prefer a higher value £ to reduce costs and make foreign holidays cheaper, but I have worked for companies that welcome a lower value £ as it boost export sales and increases profitability. In their case if the £ rose in value it made imports more competitive and it threatened profits, which inevitably led to cost cuts and reducing manpower.
Persoanally as a former businessman I did not want a high value or low value £, what I wanted was stable currency so we could plan sensibly for the long term. I can recall investment schemes shelved because when risk assessed for a change in the value of £ it made a scheme too risky.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 4, 2022 11:12:03 GMT
If I can but in on this currency debate, Just to point out that over 90% of British companies do not export and most exports go to none EU countries. People generally prefer a higher value £ to reduce costs and make foreign holidays cheaper, but I have worked for companies that welcome a lower value £ as it boost export sales and increases profitability. In their case if the £ rose in value it made imports more competitive and it threatened profits, which inevitably led to cost cuts and reducing manpower. Persoanally as a former businessman I did not want a high value or low value £, what I wanted was stable currency so we could plan sensibly for the long term. I can recall investment schemes shelved because when risk assessed for a change in the value of £ it made a scheme too risky. All valid points and only 0.7% of companies export to the EU I believe.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 4, 2022 11:26:36 GMT
Your argument seems to be a variation of if I get a £5k payrise but I get €100 less when I exchange my holiday money I M worse off than I was before, a quite barmy argument that ignores so many things, UK companies mostly operate in GBP, they pay wages, rent, fuel, heating and overpriced lawyers in GBP so there only interest in the exchange rate is how it impacts sales which even you finally accept have increased, yes it may impact the price of any imports of goods used in production / manufacturing but the fact exports have held up shows this is not significant or companies moved to local or international suppliers. It is stagnant even in your best case scenario. The reality is much worse: obr.uk/box/the-latest-evidence-on-the-impact-of-brexit-on-uk-trade/An increase of £10b is not stagnant, I honestly dont see anything bad there I see an economy repositioning itself, membership of CPTPP will further aid this and the use of the numbers is not particularly helpful if you are not going to attempt to compare like with like by taking out the rotterdam effect, different categorisation of exports of goods purchased from China etc etc etc
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 4, 2022 13:22:07 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Aug 4, 2022 14:53:22 GMT
I wonder how much further below the rest of the G7 our economy would be performing if it wasn’t for the greater costs and bureaucracy of brexit that some brexiteers on here still claim are not damaging our economy!?
Would it be 3 years of recession instead of one and a half? Would we be even further behind the rest at recovering from the pandemic had we not ripped up our biggest trade deal and adopted scorched earth tactics in negotiations woth our closest allies!?
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Post by gawa on Aug 4, 2022 21:12:34 GMT
mrcoke interested to know your opinion on the NI protocol. As a country we've been thriving compared to the rest of the UK post brexit. Which is strange given that we have one of the weakest economies. www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-62078425Why do you think NIs economy has grown more than the rest of the UKs? This goes against all trends and the only difference between us and them is the NI protocol? Would it be right to assume that our continued access to the EU market has contributed to our growth? Or if not, what plausible explanation could you provide? I know you've shot down other articles posted saying that they are all theoretical. So I feel NI is a very good example and comparison seeing as we are part of the UK and the only part which has retained single market access in that time. Do you agree with the DUPs stance of collapsing the NI goverment until the protocol is removed? Despite there being clear evidence of how it benefits out economy. There whole argument is based on scaremongering of a United ireland, not economical. And the majority of our population and mlas are also supportive of the protocol. Like with the referendum, surely democracy should be honoured and majority rules?
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 4, 2022 22:02:16 GMT
mrcoke interested to know your opinion on the NI protocol. As a country we've been thriving compared to the rest of the UK post brexit. Which is strange given that we have one of the weakest economies. www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-62078425Why do you think NIs economy has grown more than the rest of the UKs? This goes against all trends and the only difference between us and them is the NI protocol? Would it be right to assume that our continued access to the EU market has contributed to our growth? Or if not, what plausible explanation could you provide? I know you've shot down other articles posted saying that they are all theoretical. So I feel NI is a very good example and comparison seeing as we are part of the UK and the only part which has retained single market access in that time. Do you agree with the DUPs stance of collapsing the NI goverment until the protocol is removed? Despite there being clear evidence of how it benefits out economy. There whole argument is based on scaremongering of a United ireland, not economical. And the majority of our population and mlas are also supportive of the protocol. Like with the referendum, surely democracy should be honoured and majority rules? Thank you for your enquiry. I have posted on here before that I do not express an opinion on Irish affairs.
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Post by gawa on Aug 4, 2022 22:04:06 GMT
mrcoke interested to know your opinion on the NI protocol. As a country we've been thriving compared to the rest of the UK post brexit. Which is strange given that we have one of the weakest economies. www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-62078425Why do you think NIs economy has grown more than the rest of the UKs? This goes against all trends and the only difference between us and them is the NI protocol? Would it be right to assume that our continued access to the EU market has contributed to our growth? Or if not, what plausible explanation could you provide? I know you've shot down other articles posted saying that they are all theoretical. So I feel NI is a very good example and comparison seeing as we are part of the UK and the only part which has retained single market access in that time. Do you agree with the DUPs stance of collapsing the NI goverment until the protocol is removed? Despite there being clear evidence of how it benefits out economy. There whole argument is based on scaremongering of a United ireland, not economical. And the majority of our population and mlas are also supportive of the protocol. Like with the referendum, surely democracy should be honoured and majority rules? Thank you for your enquiry. I have posted on here before that I do not express an opinion on Irish affairs. This is British affairs.
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Post by gawa on Aug 4, 2022 22:11:18 GMT
I just find it surprising that for someone so invested in brexit and the pros/cons of it that has read loads of articles about the impacts of brexit, that you take no interest or have any opinion on one of the most heated parts of brexit; the NI protocol.
I am however not surprised that, just like the DUP, you can provide no argument for why our economy is outperforming the rest of the UK. If its not the protocol which is keeping us within the EU single market, then why is our economy going against all trends and doing so well?
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 4, 2022 22:24:56 GMT
I just find it surprising that for someone so invested in brexit and the pros/cons of it that has read loads of articles about the impacts of brexit, that you take no interest or have any opinion on one of the most heated parts of brexit; the NI protocol. I am however not surprised that, just like the DUP, you can provide no argument for why our economy is outperforming the rest of the UK. If its not the protocol which is keeping us within the EU single market, then why is our economy going against all trends and doing so well? See my comment on page 1,474. It is a personal matter.
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Post by gawa on Aug 4, 2022 22:40:33 GMT
I just find it surprising that for someone so invested in brexit and the pros/cons of it that has read loads of articles about the impacts of brexit, that you take no interest or have any opinion on one of the most heated parts of brexit; the NI protocol. I am however not surprised that, just like the DUP, you can provide no argument for why our economy is outperforming the rest of the UK. If its not the protocol which is keeping us within the EU single market, then why is our economy going against all trends and doing so well? See my comment on page 1,474. It is a personal matter. Fair enough. Well I'm sure there are still many pros and cons of NI protocol for us. These growths could be short term due to British companies accessing single market via NI which would have formerly operated directly. Not read that anywhere but just a potential counter argument! The biggest problem for us in the UK is a lack of representation. Everyone talks about the democratic process when it comes to the referendum which we have to respect. But for us, we voted to stay in the EU and we would vote protocol over no protocol too. When it comes to elections our vote means nothing when it comes to Westminster due to next to no influence and voting for different parties. And our own goverment is collapsed more than its up which this tory goverment just seem to not care about. Times like this and we're held to ransom with no budget still due to the DUP collapsing stormont over the NI protocol. Something which can't be solved with in stormont either and has to be done through Westminster. I think for a lot of us who live outside England, we sometimes feel that our politics is too england centralised. Look at levelling up. Stoke on Trent got more money than our whole country. The Torys have no incentive to invest here because there's no sears to be won. They put the money back into their voters. I'm from a unionist background but even I feel I'm also more in support of a United Ireland now. In the BBC they keep doing reports about NHS waiting lists being the worst ever in England. Our NHS waiting lists etc.. Are even worse than that and nothing gets done to fix it. Sorry I know it's not related to brexit and that you don't comment on our affairs. Just getting a bit of frustration out. This is why I can sympathise and understand why Scottish people want independance. A lot of us really do feel like second class citizens under this goverment.
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Post by maxplonk on Aug 8, 2022 14:36:16 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 8, 2022 15:15:01 GMT
It'd be a parody, if it wasn't sadly true. Is there a single one of those promises that remotely reflects reality in Brexit Britain? They may well play it in museums in future. I'd advise them to save a copy for a few institutions in future as well, to keep the inmates happy and calm.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 8, 2022 15:49:55 GMT
It'd be a parody, if it wasn't sadly true. Is there a single one of those promises that remotely reflects reality in Brexit Britain?
They may well play it in museums in future. I'd advise them to save a copy for a few institutions in future as well, to keep the inmates happy and calm.
"Better care from the NHS Reduced waiting times at the NHS Better education for your children Your wages will rise Your weekly food shop will become cheaper You and your family will benefit from a resurgent economy Younger generations will find it easier to get on the housing ladder Politicians will become more accountable"
Nope, not one.
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Post by oggyoggy on Aug 8, 2022 17:46:58 GMT
It'd be a parody, if it wasn't sadly true. Is there a single one of those promises that remotely reflects reality in Brexit Britain?
They may well play it in museums in future. I'd advise them to save a copy for a few institutions in future as well, to keep the inmates happy and calm. "Better care from the NHS Reduced waiting times at the NHS Better education for your children Your wages will rise Your weekly food shop will become cheaper You and your family will benefit from a resurgent economy Younger generations will find it easier to get on the housing ladder Politicians will become more accountable" Nope, not one. You must be “doing down your country” then! All we have to do is believe and brexit is brilliant!
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Post by toppercorner on Aug 8, 2022 18:24:57 GMT
Charter Cities.
Brexit has enabled the tories to start planning them. Just reading about them is utterly terrifying. It's dystopian at best.
without doubt, some laugh and brand it a conspiracy theory..... but we're absolutely fucked if this goes ahead. Entire areas owned by corporations, not the UK govt.
it's happened in parts of Honduras as a testing ground.
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Post by wannabee on Aug 9, 2022 15:22:48 GMT
This Dystopian nightmare has been kicking around for quite a few years first by Multi Billionaire Koch Brothers ($120Bn estimated wealth) and adopted by some of the more lunatic Far Right Think Tanks More recently promoted by Billionaire Robert Mercer through his funding of Trump and Breitbart etc The "Brains" behind this theological Bullshit is Paul Roper Rishi Sunaks ex Professor at Stafford that's the Rishi who is promoting Freeports How far this nonsense gets is hard to say but it's certainly dangerous Let's not leave Liz out of this crap either who has promised "Full-fat Freeports " cutting Business Red Tape and Planning Regs if elected To understand the full horrors of this nightmare read the attached simonicity.com/2022/07/30/ez-does-it-charter-cities-freeports-development-corporations/
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 9, 2022 15:46:31 GMT
This Dystopian nightmare has been kicking around for quite a few years first by Multi Billionaire Koch Brothers ($120Bn estimated wealth) and adopted by some of the more lunatic Far Right Think Tanks More recently promoted by Billionaire Robert Mercer through his funding of Trump and Breitbart etc The "Brains" behind this theological Bullshit is Paul Roper Rishi Sunaks ex Professor at Stafford that's the Rishi who is promoting Freeports How far this nonsense gets is hard to say but it's certainly dangerous Let's not leave Liz out of this crap either who has promised "Full-fat Freeports " cutting Business Red Tape and Planning Regs if elected To understand the full horrors of this nightmare read the attached simonicity.com/2022/07/30/ez-does-it-charter-cities-freeports-development-corporations/Doesn't what we do as a country depend upon the government that we elect?
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Post by wannabee on Aug 9, 2022 16:41:51 GMT
This Dystopian nightmare has been kicking around for quite a few years first by Multi Billionaire Koch Brothers ($120Bn estimated wealth) and adopted by some of the more lunatic Far Right Think Tanks More recently promoted by Billionaire Robert Mercer through his funding of Trump and Breitbart etc The "Brains" behind this theological Bullshit is Paul Roper Rishi Sunaks ex Professor at Stafford that's the Rishi who is promoting Freeports How far this nonsense gets is hard to say but it's certainly dangerous Let's not leave Liz out of this crap either who has promised "Full-fat Freeports " cutting Business Red Tape and Planning Regs if elected To understand the full horrors of this nightmare read the attached simonicity.com/2022/07/30/ez-does-it-charter-cities-freeports-development-corporations/Doesn't what we do as a country depend upon the government that we elect? We elect a Government ostensibly on its Manifesto, when has a Government ever carried out its Manifesto or provided enough detail to make a judgement on its merits?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 9, 2022 16:53:04 GMT
Doesn't what we do as a country depend upon the government that we elect? We elect a Government ostensibly on its Manifesto, when has a Government ever carried out its Manifesto or provided enough detail to make a judgement on its merits? That's true. Nothing to do with Brexit though....just to do with the nature of our democratic system. That's true of all governments , pre and post Brexit....some aspects of a manifesto only last a short time, others can be held to account for the life of a parliament.....it's obvious really ....as soon as a government is elected, Labour , Tory or other...who can predict....Covid, Ukraine, other aspects of the climate emergency etc....obviously the government then has to change tact. Freeports and similar depend upon rhe government we elect. If you are implying that pre Brexit the UK could not make these sort of decisions because those decisions were made in Brussels, I agree with you....hence Brexit, sovereignty and democracy.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 9, 2022 16:57:16 GMT
Charter Cities. Brexit has enabled the tories to start planning them. Just reading about them is utterly terrifying. It's dystopian at best. without doubt, some laugh and brand it a conspiracy theory..... but we're absolutely fucked if this goes ahead. Entire areas owned by corporations, not the UK govt. it's happened in parts of Honduras as a testing ground. What I’m struggling to understand is why both Labour and the SNP back Freeports if they are tools of Tory perfidy.
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Post by wannabee on Aug 9, 2022 18:18:38 GMT
We elect a Government ostensibly on its Manifesto, when has a Government ever carried out its Manifesto or provided enough detail to make a judgement on its merits? That's true. Nothing to do with Brexit though....just to do with the nature of our democratic system. That's true of all governments , pre and post Brexit....some aspects of a manifesto only last a short time, others can be held to account for the life of a parliament.....it's obvious really ....as soon as a government is elected, Labour , Tory or other...who can predict....Covid, Ukraine, other aspects of the climate emergency etc....obviously the government then has to change tact. Freeports and similar depend upon rhe government we elect. If you are implying that pre Brexit the UK could not make these sort of decisions because those decisions were made in Brussels, I agree with you....hence Brexit, sovereignty and democracy. I replied to a post on this thread about Charter Cities I don't think I mentioned Brexit Thatcher within EU established Freeports in 1980 there were 5 of them Cameron decided to not to renew their Licence in 2012. There are 80 Freeports in the EU fullfact.org/europe/free-ports/As usual the devil is in the detail The Original Concept of Charter Cities was Developed Countries to Establish such areas in Developing Countries In 2010 Rishi's Mentor Paul Romer expanded on his ideas in a talk to Policy Exchange - Conservative Party Think Tank An extract from his talk. Take Hull. Given its prime location facing Europe, we've long believed it has huge potential, and yet it has failed dismally to exploit it. Suppose it became our own version of a Charter City - minimum wage and working hours regulations abolished, social benefits for working age citizens abolished (maybe a 5 year phased withdrawal), central government economic and planning and regulations abolished, no more central government development assistance but a 10% flat rate income tax, 10% Corporation Tax rate, and no capital gains tax.
Public spending as a percentage of GDP would obviously fall sharply, and those that depend on public spending would certainly feel the squeeze (although welfare recipients could be given the option of staying on benefit if they relocated outside the City). But against that, Hull would attract entrepreneurs and private investment on an unprecedented scale - and with its easy European access, much of the inflow would come from overseas. There would soon be jobs for all.
www.taxpayersalliance.com/charter_cities_f1_qrrrebspo_1e_acnz6xzb7l0Personally I wouldn't want to live in a society like this YMMV I see no problem with establishing Freeports/Freezones particularly in deprived areas
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 9, 2022 21:18:06 GMT
That's true. Nothing to do with Brexit though....just to do with the nature of our democratic system. That's true of all governments , pre and post Brexit....some aspects of a manifesto only last a short time, others can be held to account for the life of a parliament.....it's obvious really ....as soon as a government is elected, Labour , Tory or other...who can predict....Covid, Ukraine, other aspects of the climate emergency etc....obviously the government then has to change tact. Freeports and similar depend upon rhe government we elect. If you are implying that pre Brexit the UK could not make these sort of decisions because those decisions were made in Brussels, I agree with you....hence Brexit, sovereignty and democracy. I replied to a post on this thread about Charter Cities I don't think I mentioned Brexit Thatcher within EU established Freeports in 1980 there were 5 of them Cameron decided to not to renew their Licence in 2012. There are 80 Freeports in the EU fullfact.org/europe/free-ports/As usual the devil is in the detail The Original Concept of Charter Cities was Developed Countries to Establish such areas in Developing Countries In 2010 Rishi's Mentor Paul Romer expanded on his ideas in a talk to Policy Exchange - Conservative Party Think Tank An extract from his talk. Take Hull. Given its prime location facing Europe, we've long believed it has huge potential, and yet it has failed dismally to exploit it. Suppose it became our own version of a Charter City - minimum wage and working hours regulations abolished, social benefits for working age citizens abolished (maybe a 5 year phased withdrawal), central government economic and planning and regulations abolished, no more central government development assistance but a 10% flat rate income tax, 10% Corporation Tax rate, and no capital gains tax.
Public spending as a percentage of GDP would obviously fall sharply, and those that depend on public spending would certainly feel the squeeze (although welfare recipients could be given the option of staying on benefit if they relocated outside the City). But against that, Hull would attract entrepreneurs and private investment on an unprecedented scale - and with its easy European access, much of the inflow would come from overseas. There would soon be jobs for all.
www.taxpayersalliance.com/charter_cities_f1_qrrrebspo_1e_acnz6xzb7l0Personally I wouldn't want to live in a society like this YMMV I see no problem with establishing Freeports/Freezones particularly in deprived areas The devil indeed is in the detail. This is a Brexit thread. I used the word " implied " with reference to your post. From your own fullfacts link.... " A 2005 paper from a UN body said: “The [European] Commission does allow the establishment of free zones within its territory but its definition of free zone is a very narrow one.” Free ports do exist within the EU, although in a more limited form than elsewhere in the world" So we have more freedom to do as we wish without reference to the EU , but dependent upon the government that we elect. And moving forward, you agree that the establishment of free-ports has more to do with the UK government than leaving the EU.....as you seem to argue..we could have had them before we left?
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Post by wannabee on Aug 9, 2022 23:52:19 GMT
I replied to a post on this thread about Charter Cities I don't think I mentioned Brexit Thatcher within EU established Freeports in 1980 there were 5 of them Cameron decided to not to renew their Licence in 2012. There are 80 Freeports in the EU fullfact.org/europe/free-ports/As usual the devil is in the detail The Original Concept of Charter Cities was Developed Countries to Establish such areas in Developing Countries In 2010 Rishi's Mentor Paul Romer expanded on his ideas in a talk to Policy Exchange - Conservative Party Think Tank An extract from his talk. Take Hull. Given its prime location facing Europe, we've long believed it has huge potential, and yet it has failed dismally to exploit it. Suppose it became our own version of a Charter City - minimum wage and working hours regulations abolished, social benefits for working age citizens abolished (maybe a 5 year phased withdrawal), central government economic and planning and regulations abolished, no more central government development assistance but a 10% flat rate income tax, 10% Corporation Tax rate, and no capital gains tax.
Public spending as a percentage of GDP would obviously fall sharply, and those that depend on public spending would certainly feel the squeeze (although welfare recipients could be given the option of staying on benefit if they relocated outside the City). But against that, Hull would attract entrepreneurs and private investment on an unprecedented scale - and with its easy European access, much of the inflow would come from overseas. There would soon be jobs for all.
www.taxpayersalliance.com/charter_cities_f1_qrrrebspo_1e_acnz6xzb7l0Personally I wouldn't want to live in a society like this YMMV I see no problem with establishing Freeports/Freezones particularly in deprived areas The devil indeed is in the detail. This is a Brexit thread. I used the word " implied " with reference to your post. From your own fullfacts link.... " A 2005 paper from a UN body said: “The [European] Commission does allow the establishment of free zones within its territory but its definition of free zone is a very narrow one.” Free ports do exist within the EU, although in a more limited form than elsewhere in the world" The contention particularly within Conservative ranks was that Freeports were not fit for purpose under EU because they were very restricted in what they could offer under EU Competition Rules
A simple example: even though Ireland has and had a low Corporate Tax Rate of 10% generally it had established a Free Zone around Shannon Airport with a Tax Rate of 0% to encourage investment and create employment On joining EU alongside UK in 1973 this Free Zone had to be abandoned So we have more freedom to do as we wish without reference to the EU , but dependent upon the government that we elect. You would think so but that's not the case either
Under the "Oven Ready Turkey " that Boris signed under The Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) there are many provisions that most people are not aware of and Boris is obviously not in any great hurry to explain
One of these provisions is the "level playing field" provision (Title XI, Charter 3) which limits UK Government's ability to provide more favourable terms in say a Freeport. Cynics might suggest that it's a ploy by UK Government to say its hands are tied. Others particularly within ERG might curse their Stupidity of voting for such an Agreement Who knows what goes through our Politicians minds at any particular timeAnd moving forward, you agree that the establishment of free-ports has more to do with the UK government than leaving the EU.....as you seem to argue..we could have had them before we left? I agree we are probably in about the same position now as we were before we left the EU in establishing Freeports with all their limitations For ease I will answer your questions in bold in the body of your post but post links to support below Some extracts explaining the implications of the TCA However, the specificity of the provisions of the TCA significantly limit the UK's powers. For instance, the assessment and approval criteria, such as proportionality and necessity are very similar to the criteria applied by the European Commission. The TCA also lists a number of prohibited subsidies (e.g. unlimited state guarantees or export subsidies) whilst other types of subsidies (such as rescue and restructuring aid or environmental aid) are subject to conditions which sound very familiar to any EU state aid practitioner. A Joint Declaration on subsidy control policies contains further guidance.ConclusionFor a long time, the UK resisted strict state aid/subsidy control rules post-Brexit but it eventually ended up with a framework that at least in substance is likely to closely resemble the EU regime.So there we have it www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckk3zxli31ank0988v084ehed/subsidy-control-under-the-eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 10, 2022 8:35:04 GMT
The devil indeed is in the detail. This is a Brexit thread. I used the word " implied " with reference to your post. From your own fullfacts link.... " A 2005 paper from a UN body said: “The [European] Commission does allow the establishment of free zones within its territory but its definition of free zone is a very narrow one.” Free ports do exist within the EU, although in a more limited form than elsewhere in the world" The contention particularly within Conservative ranks was that Freeports were not fit for purpose under EU because they were very restricted in what they could offer under EU Competition Rules
A simple example: even though Ireland has and had a low Corporate Tax Rate of 10% generally it had established a Free Zone around Shannon Airport with a Tax Rate of 0% to encourage investment and create employment On joining EU alongside UK in 1973 this Free Zone had to be abandoned So we have more freedom to do as we wish without reference to the EU , but dependent upon the government that we elect. You would think so but that's not the case either
Under the "Oven Ready Turkey " that Boris signed under The Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) there are many provisions that most people are not aware of and Boris is obviously not in any great hurry to explain
One of these provisions is the "level playing field" provision (Title XI, Charter 3) which limits UK Government's ability to provide more favourable terms in say a Freeport. Cynics might suggest that it's a ploy by UK Government to say its hands are tied. Others particularly within ERG might curse their Stupidity of voting for such an Agreement Who knows what goes through our Politicians minds at any particular timeAnd moving forward, you agree that the establishment of free-ports has more to do with the UK government than leaving the EU.....as you seem to argue..we could have had them before we left? I agree we are probably in about the same position now as we were before we left the EU in establishing Freeports with all their limitations For ease I will answer your questions in bold in the body of your post but post links to support below Some extracts explaining the implications of the TCA However, the specificity of the provisions of the TCA significantly limit the UK's powers. For instance, the assessment and approval criteria, such as proportionality and necessity are very similar to the criteria applied by the European Commission. The TCA also lists a number of prohibited subsidies (e.g. unlimited state guarantees or export subsidies) whilst other types of subsidies (such as rescue and restructuring aid or environmental aid) are subject to conditions which sound very familiar to any EU state aid practitioner. A Joint Declaration on subsidy control policies contains further guidance.ConclusionFor a long time, the UK resisted strict state aid/subsidy control rules post-Brexit but it eventually ended up with a framework that at least in substance is likely to closely resemble the EU regime.So there we have it www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckk3zxli31ank0988v084ehed/subsidy-control-under-the-eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreementSo you seem to be arguing that the UK could have set up freeports whilst in the EU and can continue to do so now we have left , but with more freedom( hopefully as we get a government who realises the implications of Brexit we can further distance ourselves from the EU.... " ever more disentanglement").....so it's a question for the government we elect....not a Brexit issue ( except we do have more freedom). www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/trade-freeports-free-zonesThe UK will, however, have more freedom over the flexibilities and tax concessions it can offer in free zones. This is because EU freeports are governed by the Union Customs Code as well as by EU rules on state aid, which stop member states using selective tax exemptions and financial incentives to distort competition.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 10, 2022 8:45:30 GMT
For ease I will answer your questions in bold in the body of your post but post links to support below Some extracts explaining the implications of the TCA However, the specificity of the provisions of the TCA significantly limit the UK's powers. For instance, the assessment and approval criteria, such as proportionality and necessity are very similar to the criteria applied by the European Commission. The TCA also lists a number of prohibited subsidies (e.g. unlimited state guarantees or export subsidies) whilst other types of subsidies (such as rescue and restructuring aid or environmental aid) are subject to conditions which sound very familiar to any EU state aid practitioner. A Joint Declaration on subsidy control policies contains further guidance.ConclusionFor a long time, the UK resisted strict state aid/subsidy control rules post-Brexit but it eventually ended up with a framework that at least in substance is likely to closely resemble the EU regime.So there we have it www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckk3zxli31ank0988v084ehed/subsidy-control-under-the-eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreementSo you seem to be arguing that the UK could have set up freeports whilst in the EU and can continue to do so now we have left , but with more freedom( hopefully as we get a government who realises the implications of Brexit we can further distance ourselves from the EU.... " ever more disentanglement").....so it's a question for the government we elect....not a Brexit issue ( except we do have more freedom). www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/trade-freeports-free-zonesThe UK will, however, have more freedom over the flexibilities and tax concessions it can offer in free zones. This is because EU freeports are governed by the Union Customs Code as well as by EU rules on state aid, which stop member states using selective tax exemptions and financial incentives to distort competition. From your own link: Other economic commentators such as the UK Trade Policy Observatory (UKTPO) have suggested, however, that these studies were based on questionable assumptions. The figure for new jobs in the Sunak report, for example, was produced by taking the number of people employed in the US’s Free Trade Zones (FTZs) and reducing it in line with the size of the UK’s total workforce. This assumes, however, that every job in an FTZ is a new job that would not exist in the absence of the FTZ – an assumption that one US Congress report suggests is implausible. In addition, the success of the US’s FTZs been based in a large part on a peculiarity of the US tariff schedule by which the tariff on some finished goods is lower than the tariff on their parts – a phenomenon known as “tariff inversion”. This sometimes makes it advantageous to import parts into an FTZ, complete the final stages of processing there, then have the finished good enter the US at the lower tariff. Tariff inversion is very rare in the UK, however, so this benefit would be unlikely to materialise. Finally, the UK’s own experience with freeports and enterprise zones suggests that there is a severe risk of merely diverting business from other parts of the UK, rather than creating genuinely new economic activity – and doing this at a considerable cost in incentives paid and taxes foregone. In April 2019, the European Parliament called for freeports to be scrapped across the EU as a result of a report on tax evasion and money laundering. The report argues that freeports provide operators “with a safe and widely disregarded storage space, where trade can be conducted untaxed and ownership can be concealed.” The lack of scrutiny on imports means that high-value items like art, for example, can be bought and easily stored in freeports without the kind of checks and controls they would normally face. The likelihood of this will become clearer when the freeports are operational. It all sounds a bit smoke and mirrors to me, and based on somewhat dubiously concluded benefits and potentially illegal activities. You can see why they appeal to this government! Also, what happens to the goods that are exempt from 'normal' regulations, taxes and tariffs when they leave the freeport zone, further into the UK? They're subject to the usual regs, taxes and tariffs at their final destination presumably?
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