|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 23, 2021 15:26:09 GMT
He's an absolute shyster, isn't he!
DT: "Johnson begs Merkel to help NI protocol talks"
When are people going to wake up to this fool?!
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 23, 2021 21:03:48 GMT
You are right. She is not illegal. She has as much right to be here as you and me. Before 2016 she was living here just like you and me. There is no requirement in the UK to hold any identification document, such as a Passport or Driving Licence. Her status changed as a result of the referendum, after that point she was apparently no longer just like you and me. That is where I struggle, the impact of the referendum on ordinary people living here. Suddenly her record of academic qualifications, her years of tax contributions was no longer enough to prove her status. You assert that she did not complete the necessary process. My assertion is that such a process is fundamentally unnecessary, and in fact demeaning when applied to an individual who has lived here and paid her way since birth. 6m+ people found no problem in doing this yet you think one woman where the story does not add up makes the whole process demeaning, I let my passport expire and then realised it would be easy to renew my driving licence with a valid passport, I have lived here all my life and still needed to apply was I demeaned ? The truth is you still aren't over brexit.... If the woman has lived and worked here for 44 years its quite odd she never applied for settled status at anytime before, even odder she identifies herself as spanish despite never once seemingly wanting to go back there to visit friends or relatives, I mean there are some great places to holiday in the UK but after 20+ years I think I might be looking further afield.... Anyway its all irrelevant the instructions from the government are quite clear unless there is a refusal of application for settled status, rights to work etc are unaffected so its an open and shut case of wrongful dismissal lots of people offering free legal representation lets see if this ever reaches an employment tribunal. Of course the process is demeaning. People are required to change their status as citizens. The fact that other people have gone through the process does not mean it is not a demeaning process. You and I can make our own choices about establishing our status, but clearly it is being forced on this lady. Where is your evidence that "this story does not add up"? A further account today speaks of the number of people aged 65+ who are likely to have missed the settlement scheme deadline, for a number of reasons, including limited knowledge of working with a digital system, with no paper based alternative. Again. in many cases, these will be people who came to the UK as children, and have led all their lives here. This is not a matter of international diplomacy, this is a simple matter of making it as easy and simple as possible for ordinary people to deal with a change that has been forced on these people. What are the ramifications for their later lives if they miss out on "settled status" for example on their pensions. These people should have been asked to do nothing more than carry on breathing as they were before.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 23, 2021 21:22:03 GMT
6m+ people found no problem in doing this yet you think one woman where the story does not add up makes the whole process demeaning, I let my passport expire and then realised it would be easy to renew my driving licence with a valid passport, I have lived here all my life and still needed to apply was I demeaned ? The truth is you still aren't over brexit.... If the woman has lived and worked here for 44 years its quite odd she never applied for settled status at anytime before, even odder she identifies herself as spanish despite never once seemingly wanting to go back there to visit friends or relatives, I mean there are some great places to holiday in the UK but after 20+ years I think I might be looking further afield.... Anyway its all irrelevant the instructions from the government are quite clear unless there is a refusal of application for settled status, rights to work etc are unaffected so its an open and shut case of wrongful dismissal lots of people offering free legal representation lets see if this ever reaches an employment tribunal. To be fair, I've lived the Belgium for 20 years and had to sort out a new ID card due to Brexit. I got a letter in the post inviting me to do and I sorted it easily. I agree that if she's been in the UK so long that it wouldn't be difficult to sort her status out. Even before Brexit she could have gotten dual nationality. I have an unfortunate habit of not reading posts carefully. At first I thought you said that you had lived in Burslem for 20 years.......
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jul 24, 2021 10:29:22 GMT
6m+ people found no problem in doing this yet you think one woman where the story does not add up makes the whole process demeaning, I let my passport expire and then realised it would be easy to renew my driving licence with a valid passport, I have lived here all my life and still needed to apply was I demeaned ? The truth is you still aren't over brexit.... If the woman has lived and worked here for 44 years its quite odd she never applied for settled status at anytime before, even odder she identifies herself as spanish despite never once seemingly wanting to go back there to visit friends or relatives, I mean there are some great places to holiday in the UK but after 20+ years I think I might be looking further afield.... Anyway its all irrelevant the instructions from the government are quite clear unless there is a refusal of application for settled status, rights to work etc are unaffected so its an open and shut case of wrongful dismissal lots of people offering free legal representation lets see if this ever reaches an employment tribunal. Of course the process is demeaning. People are required to change their status as citizens. The fact that other people have gone through the process does not mean it is not a demeaning process. You and I can make our own choices about establishing our status, but clearly it is being forced on this lady. Where is your evidence that "this story does not add up"? A further account today speaks of the number of people aged 65+ who are likely to have missed the settlement scheme deadline, for a number of reasons, including limited knowledge of working with a digital system, with no paper based alternative. Again. in many cases, these will be people who came to the UK as children, and have led all their lives here. This is not a matter of international diplomacy, this is a simple matter of making it as easy and simple as possible for ordinary people to deal with a change that has been forced on these people. What are the ramifications for their later lives if they miss out on "settled status" for example on their pensions. These people should have been asked to do nothing more than carry on breathing as they were before. The fact you use demeaning just goes to show you are still not over brexit, the process was made as easy as possible, fees were dropped and no changes were made for EU citizens living here, the application process is not really any more arduous than applying for a passport, its also wrong to say there was no paper based alternative as the story on the woman in question says she could not use the online process as she did not have a passport so had to submit a paper application...... For the over 65s its quite possible many may have chosen to leave the uk and also there will have been some fradulent claims but the impact on things like pensions is zero, the entitlement to a pension is not based on where you live (see british pensioners who retired overseas) its based on you paying in and earning it. For those genuine cases who didnt apply in time I expect they will be allowed to afterwards as and when they come into contact with the home office, certainly wont be mass deportations. As for the original woman lots doesnt add up, she left applying till the last minute doubtful she wouldn't have been getting information from her employers, she has lived her 44 years but never taken a holiday or visited the country she considers herself a citizen of, cant have changed jobs in the last 20 years or she would have had to provide evidence a right to work in the uk and you think might have linked this to needing to apply and finally she cant read any newspapers or watch the news as the whole windrush debacle must have just passed her by.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 25, 2021 12:23:53 GMT
The NI Protocol is going to get very interesting come September, which is roughly the same time that the import regulations kick in for businesses.
Could be a useful distraction for Bluffer to take the nuclear option, as described, invoke Article 16 and blame all the resultant chaos not on the fantastic deal he was crowing about last December but on the EU.
Again.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 25, 2021 23:01:16 GMT
Of course the process is demeaning. People are required to change their status as citizens. The fact that other people have gone through the process does not mean it is not a demeaning process. You and I can make our own choices about establishing our status, but clearly it is being forced on this lady. Where is your evidence that "this story does not add up"? A further account today speaks of the number of people aged 65+ who are likely to have missed the settlement scheme deadline, for a number of reasons, including limited knowledge of working with a digital system, with no paper based alternative. Again. in many cases, these will be people who came to the UK as children, and have led all their lives here. This is not a matter of international diplomacy, this is a simple matter of making it as easy and simple as possible for ordinary people to deal with a change that has been forced on these people. What are the ramifications for their later lives if they miss out on "settled status" for example on their pensions. These people should have been asked to do nothing more than carry on breathing as they were before. The fact you use demeaning just goes to show you are still not over brexit, the process was made as easy as possible, fees were dropped and no changes were made for EU citizens living here, the application process is not really any more arduous than applying for a passport, its also wrong to say there was no paper based alternative as the story on the woman in question says she could not use the online process as she did not have a passport so had to submit a paper application...... For the over 65s its quite possible many may have chosen to leave the uk and also there will have been some fradulent claims but the impact on things like pensions is zero, the entitlement to a pension is not based on where you live (see british pensioners who retired overseas) its based on you paying in and earning it. For those genuine cases who didnt apply in time I expect they will be allowed to afterwards as and when they come into contact with the home office, certainly wont be mass deportations. As for the original woman lots doesnt add up, she left applying till the last minute doubtful she wouldn't have been getting information from her employers, she has lived her 44 years but never taken a holiday or visited the country she considers herself a citizen of, cant have changed jobs in the last 20 years or she would have had to provide evidence a right to work in the uk and you think might have linked this to needing to apply and finally she cant read any newspapers or watch the news as the whole windrush debacle must have just passed her by. During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished.
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jul 26, 2021 8:46:55 GMT
The fact you use demeaning just goes to show you are still not over brexit, the process was made as easy as possible, fees were dropped and no changes were made for EU citizens living here, the application process is not really any more arduous than applying for a passport, its also wrong to say there was no paper based alternative as the story on the woman in question says she could not use the online process as she did not have a passport so had to submit a paper application...... For the over 65s its quite possible many may have chosen to leave the uk and also there will have been some fradulent claims but the impact on things like pensions is zero, the entitlement to a pension is not based on where you live (see british pensioners who retired overseas) its based on you paying in and earning it. For those genuine cases who didnt apply in time I expect they will be allowed to afterwards as and when they come into contact with the home office, certainly wont be mass deportations. As for the original woman lots doesnt add up, she left applying till the last minute doubtful she wouldn't have been getting information from her employers, she has lived her 44 years but never taken a holiday or visited the country she considers herself a citizen of, cant have changed jobs in the last 20 years or she would have had to provide evidence a right to work in the uk and you think might have linked this to needing to apply and finally she cant read any newspapers or watch the news as the whole windrush debacle must have just passed her by. During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished. Maybe, just maybe, she is an argumentative bitch who was crap at her job and because she couldn't be bothered to fill in a bit of paperwork, her employer has used the opportunity to get rid of her and maybe when she dials the correct number at the home office she'll get confirmation that she can stay in the UK. I don't know because I haven't read up on her story. What I do know is that you're being an argumentative bitch because you didn't like the result of a public vote over five years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 26, 2021 9:25:01 GMT
The Conservative Party didn't fracture. That's about it, so far. But over 50% of the electorate who voted (going by the votes in the last election) regard that as a negative not a benefit!
|
|
|
Post by dutchstokie on Jul 26, 2021 9:29:21 GMT
6m+ people found no problem in doing this yet you think one woman where the story does not add up makes the whole process demeaning, I let my passport expire and then realised it would be easy to renew my driving licence with a valid passport, I have lived here all my life and still needed to apply was I demeaned ? The truth is you still aren't over brexit.... If the woman has lived and worked here for 44 years its quite odd she never applied for settled status at anytime before, even odder she identifies herself as spanish despite never once seemingly wanting to go back there to visit friends or relatives, I mean there are some great places to holiday in the UK but after 20+ years I think I might be looking further afield.... Anyway its all irrelevant the instructions from the government are quite clear unless there is a refusal of application for settled status, rights to work etc are unaffected so its an open and shut case of wrongful dismissal lots of people offering free legal representation lets see if this ever reaches an employment tribunal. To be fair, I've lived the Belgium for 20 years and had to sort out a new ID card due to Brexit. I got a letter in the post inviting me to do and I sorted it easily. I agree that if she's been in the UK so long that it wouldn't be difficult to sort her status out. Even before Brexit she could have gotten dual nationality. The same here in NL.....Start of the year received a letter telling me what to do and by when. I complied and it was a piece of piss to arrange.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 9:36:32 GMT
During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished. Maybe, just maybe, she is an argumentative bitch who was crap at her job and because she couldn't be bothered to fill in a bit of paperwork, her employer has used the opportunity to get rid of her and maybe when she dials the correct number at the home office she'll get confirmation that she can stay in the UK. I don't know because I haven't read up on her story. What I do know is that you're being an argumentative bitch because you didn't like the result of a public vote over five years ago.
I think that is what you call an ad hominem attack. You could,of course, do your own research and checkout the facts for yourself, but it is easier to slur the lady and pass blithely over what is going on here. Enjoy your day.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 26, 2021 9:44:11 GMT
I have asked this question too, on numerous occasions. Not one decent response. The irony of this from this particular poster..... Rent free...every time.
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Jul 26, 2021 10:01:33 GMT
The fact you use demeaning just goes to show you are still not over brexit, the process was made as easy as possible, fees were dropped and no changes were made for EU citizens living here, the application process is not really any more arduous than applying for a passport, its also wrong to say there was no paper based alternative as the story on the woman in question says she could not use the online process as she did not have a passport so had to submit a paper application...... For the over 65s its quite possible many may have chosen to leave the uk and also there will have been some fradulent claims but the impact on things like pensions is zero, the entitlement to a pension is not based on where you live (see british pensioners who retired overseas) its based on you paying in and earning it. For those genuine cases who didnt apply in time I expect they will be allowed to afterwards as and when they come into contact with the home office, certainly wont be mass deportations. As for the original woman lots doesnt add up, she left applying till the last minute doubtful she wouldn't have been getting information from her employers, she has lived her 44 years but never taken a holiday or visited the country she considers herself a citizen of, cant have changed jobs in the last 20 years or she would have had to provide evidence a right to work in the uk and you think might have linked this to needing to apply and finally she cant read any newspapers or watch the news as the whole windrush debacle must have just passed her by. During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished. I don’t see how this is demeaning, but let’s just say it is for the sake of argument…..is it any different to what Brits in Spain had to do and if not were they then demeaned, or can only EU citizens be demeaned?
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 10:41:05 GMT
During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished. I don’t see how this is demeaning, but let’s just say it is for the sake of argument…..is it any different to what Brits in Spain had to do and if not were they then demeaned, or can only EU citizens be demeaned? I think the difference is that (in general) it was the UK that instigated this issue, not the EU. I don't know (because I have not done the research) of any EU country which made explicit promises to British citizens living there that their status would not change and they would be guaranteed an automatic right to stay. The circumstances of this particular lady seem to deserve sympathy and help, (as i illustrated by quoting the view of someone who it seems likely voted for Brexit)
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Jul 26, 2021 11:07:53 GMT
I don’t see how this is demeaning, but let’s just say it is for the sake of argument…..is it any different to what Brits in Spain had to do and if not were they then demeaned, or can only EU citizens be demeaned? I think the difference is that (in general) it was the UK that instigated this issue, not the EU. I don't know (because I have not done the research) of any EU country which made explicit promises to British citizens living there that their status would not change and they would be guaranteed an automatic right to stay. The circumstances of this particular lady seem to deserve sympathy and help, (as i illustrated by quoting the view of someone who it seems likely voted for Brexit) Irrespective of whether the UK instigated it by Brexit, we are where we are. Therefore the UK and the EU put in place what processes were required for settled status and agreed what this should look like. Both required form filling/registration by deadlines irrespective of how long a person had been resident or worked aside from Irish citizens who had to do nothing so were very well treated by the UK. So again, how is this demeaning and if it is, are both UK and EU citizens equally demeaned or is it just the EU ones who are demeaned in your eyes?
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jul 26, 2021 11:28:28 GMT
Maybe, just maybe, she is an argumentative bitch who was crap at her job and because she couldn't be bothered to fill in a bit of paperwork, her employer has used the opportunity to get rid of her and maybe when she dials the correct number at the home office she'll get confirmation that she can stay in the UK. I don't know because I haven't read up on her story. What I do know is that you're being an argumentative bitch because you didn't like the result of a public vote over five years ago.
I think that is what you call an ad hominem attack. You could,of course, do your own research and checkout the facts for yourself, but it is easier to slur the lady and pass blithely over what is going on here. Enjoy your day. It was, yes because you keep banging on about this woman who didn't follow the rules yet you state it's the UK's fault. Why would I bother searching for this story when it appears nobody is disputing what happened, just who's fault it is. She'll be allowed to stay, we'll still be out of the EU.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jul 26, 2021 11:50:19 GMT
The fact you use demeaning just goes to show you are still not over brexit, the process was made as easy as possible, fees were dropped and no changes were made for EU citizens living here, the application process is not really any more arduous than applying for a passport, its also wrong to say there was no paper based alternative as the story on the woman in question says she could not use the online process as she did not have a passport so had to submit a paper application...... For the over 65s its quite possible many may have chosen to leave the uk and also there will have been some fradulent claims but the impact on things like pensions is zero, the entitlement to a pension is not based on where you live (see british pensioners who retired overseas) its based on you paying in and earning it. For those genuine cases who didnt apply in time I expect they will be allowed to afterwards as and when they come into contact with the home office, certainly wont be mass deportations. As for the original woman lots doesnt add up, she left applying till the last minute doubtful she wouldn't have been getting information from her employers, she has lived her 44 years but never taken a holiday or visited the country she considers herself a citizen of, cant have changed jobs in the last 20 years or she would have had to provide evidence a right to work in the uk and you think might have linked this to needing to apply and finally she cant read any newspapers or watch the news as the whole windrush debacle must have just passed her by. During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished. a. It's starting to become clear you don't really understand the process, if you really think filling in a digital form and providing some very basic proof that you have been living in the UK prior to the cut off date is demeaning, you will probably want to go to the Hague when you apply for a mortgage...... b. The key words are she claims to have been trying to contact the home office and this was not to settle the case but with queries on the application this is all irrelevant as the instructions are very clear there should be no change in employment status unless right to remain was refused, so its an open and shut case to goto an employment tribunal. c.just appears to be you randomnly making things up / thinking aloud, I use the word thinking very loosely here. Settled status / indefinite leave to remain is effectively just a stamp / card / letter that they show with their non-uk passport to prove right to live in UK if they are ever asked, if they had a uk passport it wouldn't be needed so it has no impact on their rights in the country of birth.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 12:16:03 GMT
During the 2016 EU referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Michael Gove put their names to this statement: “There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present.” That has not been the case though has it? EU citizens living in the UK have had to endure a demeaning process because: a) The statement above proved to be inaccurate. Either the authors and signatories were being duplicitous in 2016, or they meant well in 2016, but found they could not deliver on the promise. Either way, the EU citizens in the UK were told one thing in 2016 and were told something else in 2021. The words “no change” and “automatically granted” do not leave any room for doubt or uncertainty. But by 2021 it became clear that all EU citizens would have to engage with a digital process to maintain their status. b) I am using the case of the 45 year old Spanish lady as my example, she is clearly being demeaned here. The Cambridge Dictionary definition of "demeaning" is " causing someone to become or feel less respected", and synonyms include "degrading" and "humiliating". She claims to have been trying unsuccessfully to contact Home Office advisors to settle her case. She claims to be in debt, has lost her job, and has been finding it hard to clothe and feed her children. That must be a demeaning experience for someone who has been here since she was a baby, has paid her taxes all her working life, and was told in 2016 to expect "no change" in her status. Before leaving this case, I will draw your attention to one comment made about it in the online Daily Express: “Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red tape error, not an immigration problem. We must not become like that awful EU dictators we have just left. The lady has been punished by losing her job. Now help her become properly one of us as she has demonstrated her desire by living with us for all her life. She needs our help. She is not an illegal scrounger” c) ) I have some research and thinking to do here, but I suggest that EU citizens are being demeaned after Brexit because it may be that their status in their “home" country could be compromised by their decision over whether or not to apply for settled status in the UK. Before 2016 all EU citizens had the right to work, travel, study and live in the UK, because they were citizens of a member state of the EU. After applying for settled status in the UK, what will become of their rights in their “home” countries? Does accepting “settled status / citizenship” in the UK mean that they lose citizenship in their home country? If so, I will argue that the status of EU citizens in the UK is thereby diminished. a. It's starting to become clear you don't really understand the process, if you really think filling in a digital form and providing some very basic proof that you have been living in the UK prior to the cut off date is demeaning, you will probably want to go to the Hague when you apply for a mortgage...... b. The key words are she claims to have been trying to contact the home office and this was not to settle the case but with queries on the application this is all irrelevant as the instructions are very clear there should be no change in employment status unless right to remain was refused, so its an open and shut case to goto an employment tribunal. c.just appears to be you randomnly making things up / thinking aloud, I use the word thinking very loosely here. Settled status / indefinite leave to remain is effectively just a stamp / card / letter that they show with their non-uk passport to prove right to live in UK if they are ever asked, if they had a uk passport it wouldn't be needed so it has no impact on their rights in the country of birth. Excellent irrelevancy here. Well Done. Firstly I won't be applying for a mortgage anytime soon. All behind me. If I was applying for a mortgage, I would be doing so on the basis that I would be made aware of what documentation I need to show. Like, when this lady was made aware in 2016 that she would have an "automatic right" to stay here. No mention then of a digital form. Apparently Johnson made a very similar statement in 2017,claiming that the UK Parliament should grant rights to EU citizens without waiting for the EU to act. Then you go onto write about the possibility of Employment Tribunals.... This is a woman who has lived here for 44 of her 45 years. Sounds like unnecessary EU like bureaucracy to me. Easier to carry out the promise that Johnson made? Perhaps, just perhaps,she either does not want to have a UK or EU Passport, or perhaps right now she cannot afford to get one?
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 12:19:51 GMT
To be fair, I've lived the Belgium for 20 years and had to sort out a new ID card due to Brexit. I got a letter in the post inviting me to do and I sorted it easily. I agree that if she's been in the UK so long that it wouldn't be difficult to sort her status out. Even before Brexit she could have gotten dual nationality. The same here in NL.....Start of the year received a letter telling me what to do and by when. I complied and it was a piece of piss to arrange. It's good to know. But were you told in 2016 that you would have an "automatic" right to stay, and that there would be "no change" to your status if Brexit occurred?
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 12:28:33 GMT
I think the difference is that (in general) it was the UK that instigated this issue, not the EU. I don't know (because I have not done the research) of any EU country which made explicit promises to British citizens living there that their status would not change and they would be guaranteed an automatic right to stay. The circumstances of this particular lady seem to deserve sympathy and help, (as i illustrated by quoting the view of someone who it seems likely voted for Brexit) Irrespective of whether the UK instigated it by Brexit, we are where we are. Therefore the UK and the EU put in place what processes were required for settled status and agreed what this should look like. Both required form filling/registration by deadlines irrespective of how long a person had been resident or worked aside from Irish citizens who had to do nothing so were very well treated by the UK. So again, how is this demeaning and if it is, are both UK and EU citizens equally demeaned or is it just the EU ones who are demeaned in your eyes? It isn't "irrespective" of Brexit though,is it,it is because of Brexit. The woman's status has changed because of the Brexit vote, not irrespective of it, or despite it. I agree that the UK and the EU put processes in place to manage the situation. But this lady was promised by Johnson, Gove and others that there would be no change to their status in the UK, and that their right to be here was to be automatic. The very least the government can do in these circumstances is help get EU citizens over the line. If that means giving individual help, either with money or clerical services, then it should be done.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 12:31:36 GMT
I think that is what you call an ad hominem attack. You could,of course, do your own research and checkout the facts for yourself, but it is easier to slur the lady and pass blithely over what is going on here. Enjoy your day. It was, yes because you keep banging on about this woman who didn't follow the rules yet you state it's the UK's fault. Why would I bother searching for this story when it appears nobody is disputing what happened, just who's fault it is. She'll be allowed to stay, we'll still be out of the EU.
"Why would I bother searching for this story".......... To be in a better place to comment on it?
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jul 26, 2021 12:34:17 GMT
The same here in NL.....Start of the year received a letter telling me what to do and by when. I complied and it was a piece of piss to arrange. It's good to know. But were you told in 2016 that you would have an "automatic" right to stay, and that there would be "no change" to your status if Brexit occurred? I have an automatic right to use Britain's road network. Unfortunately the bloody government made me get a licence to use a car on them. Same with the bloody Swiss government, they demanded to see my licence before they would let me use their roads as well.
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jul 26, 2021 12:46:13 GMT
It was, yes because you keep banging on about this woman who didn't follow the rules yet you state it's the UK's fault. Why would I bother searching for this story when it appears nobody is disputing what happened, just who's fault it is. She'll be allowed to stay, we'll still be out of the EU.
"Why would I bother searching for this story".......... To be in a better place to comment on it? I haven't read the latest story about Joey Barton either but that doesn't mean I'm not in a good place to decide if he's a twat or not.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jul 26, 2021 15:58:53 GMT
a. It's starting to become clear you don't really understand the process, if you really think filling in a digital form and providing some very basic proof that you have been living in the UK prior to the cut off date is demeaning, you will probably want to go to the Hague when you apply for a mortgage...... b. The key words are she claims to have been trying to contact the home office and this was not to settle the case but with queries on the application this is all irrelevant as the instructions are very clear there should be no change in employment status unless right to remain was refused, so its an open and shut case to goto an employment tribunal. c.just appears to be you randomnly making things up / thinking aloud, I use the word thinking very loosely here. Settled status / indefinite leave to remain is effectively just a stamp / card / letter that they show with their non-uk passport to prove right to live in UK if they are ever asked, if they had a uk passport it wouldn't be needed so it has no impact on their rights in the country of birth. Excellent irrelevancy here. Well Done. Firstly I won't be applying for a mortgage anytime soon. All behind me. If I was applying for a mortgage, I would be doing so on the basis that I would be made aware of what documentation I need to show. Like, when this lady was made aware in 2016 that she would have an "automatic right" to stay here. No mention then of a digital form. Apparently Johnson made a very similar statement in 2017,claiming that the UK Parliament should grant rights to EU citizens without waiting for the EU to act. Then you go onto write about the possibility of Employment Tribunals.... This is a woman who has lived here for 44 of her 45 years. Sounds like unnecessary EU like bureaucracy to me. Easier to carry out the promise that Johnson made? Perhaps, just perhaps,she either does not want to have a UK or EU Passport, or perhaps right now she cannot afford to get one? I have an automatic right to work in this country yet everytime I change contracts I am required to provide similar information aa is required for this settled status application and additionally 1 form of photo ID to prove I have the right to work in the UK, there is nothing demeaning about the process. So you think suggesting going to an employment tribunal because you are unfairly dismissed by a company because they interpet the rules wrongly is eu type bureaucracy, well its a take of sorts I guess......
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 22:16:31 GMT
It's good to know. But were you told in 2016 that you would have an "automatic" right to stay, and that there would be "no change" to your status if Brexit occurred? I have an automatic right to use Britain's road network. Unfortunately the bloody government made me get a licence to use a car on them. Same with the bloody Swiss government, they demanded to see my licence before they would let me use their roads as well. You likely got your licence as evidence that you had reached the standard required to use them. Fail your test, you don't get the licence. So you haven't got an automatic right to use the roads. As for your comment on Joey Barton, we can agree about him. But he has lived his life in a public space, so you don't need to look too far to find out about him. This lady is a private individual. You accept you don't know her story, but you still have an opinion? It's just that your opinion might benefit from being based on factual accuracy.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 22:27:05 GMT
Excellent irrelevancy here. Well Done. Firstly I won't be applying for a mortgage anytime soon. All behind me. If I was applying for a mortgage, I would be doing so on the basis that I would be made aware of what documentation I need to show. Like, when this lady was made aware in 2016 that she would have an "automatic right" to stay here. No mention then of a digital form. Apparently Johnson made a very similar statement in 2017,claiming that the UK Parliament should grant rights to EU citizens without waiting for the EU to act. Then you go onto write about the possibility of Employment Tribunals.... This is a woman who has lived here for 44 of her 45 years. Sounds like unnecessary EU like bureaucracy to me. Easier to carry out the promise that Johnson made? Perhaps, just perhaps,she either does not want to have a UK or EU Passport, or perhaps right now she cannot afford to get one? I have an automatic right to work in this country yet everytime I change contracts I am required to provide similar information aa is required for this settled status application and additionally 1 form of photo ID to prove I have the right to work in the UK, there is nothing demeaning about the process. So you think suggesting going to an employment tribunal because you are unfairly dismissed by a company because they interpet the rules wrongly is eu type bureaucracy, well its a take of sorts I guess...... Good for you. But were you ever told by government ministers that you would never have to provide such documentation, and then told something different when you turn up to work on your contract? Because that would be a more suitable comparison. For the sake of clarity, I am not suggesting anyone goes to an Employment Tribunal. It was a concept that you brought up. My point is that (in my understanding) this lady is a private citizen, pays her taxes, and wants to do her job. Nothing more than that. She needs help getting her paperwork in order, she does not need an escalation of the issue like you are suggesting. Not about bureaucracy from the EU or the UK.
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Jul 26, 2021 23:05:56 GMT
Irrespective of whether the UK instigated it by Brexit, we are where we are. Therefore the UK and the EU put in place what processes were required for settled status and agreed what this should look like. Both required form filling/registration by deadlines irrespective of how long a person had been resident or worked aside from Irish citizens who had to do nothing so were very well treated by the UK. So again, how is this demeaning and if it is, are both UK and EU citizens equally demeaned or is it just the EU ones who are demeaned in your eyes? It isn't "irrespective" of Brexit though,is it,it is because of Brexit. The woman's status has changed because of the Brexit vote, not irrespective of it, or despite it. I agree that the UK and the EU put processes in place to manage the situation. But this lady was promised by Johnson, Gove and others that there would be no change to their status in the UK, and that their right to be here was to be automatic. The very least the government can do in these circumstances is help get EU citizens over the line. If that means giving individual help, either with money or clerical services, then it should be done. So, what do you do? Bury your head in the sand and pretend it didn’t happen and hope it was a nasty dream and the monsters will go away? It did happen and the UK and EU put measures in place. I’ll ask for the third time as you seem unable or unwilling to answer: How is this demeaning to this woman and if Brits in Spain had to follow the same process, are they not capable of being demeaned, or are you choosing to see it solely from the EU point of view as you are still sore that the UK had the audacity to leave? You really need some help in accepting what has happened, it’s not healthy to pretend it hasn’t.
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jul 26, 2021 23:17:46 GMT
I have an automatic right to use Britain's road network. Unfortunately the bloody government made me get a licence to use a car on them. Same with the bloody Swiss government, they demanded to see my licence before they would let me use their roads as well. You likely got your licence as evidence that you had reached the standard required to use them. Fail your test, you don't get the licence. So you haven't got an automatic right to use the roads. As for your comment on Joey Barton, we can agree about him. But he has lived his life in a public space, so you don't need to look too far to find out about him. This lady is a private individual. You accept you don't know her story, but you still have an opinion? It's just that your opinion might benefit from being based on factual accuracy. Of course I have a right to use them, I don't need a licence to cycle on them, walk on them or travel in a taxi - The licence just shows I can drive a car safely on them.
I don't accept that I don't know her story, you've been bleating on here for days about it, I'm not disputing what's happened to her although you've already stated that you've guessed some of the facts so I am perfectly entitled to have an opinion based on the statements made on here (not just by you). I started my first comment with "maybe, just maybe" BECAUSE you were guessing at some of the facts and that maybe, just maybe it's not the governments fault that she's in the predicament she is, but you won't accept that because you don't like the result of the Brexit vote. That's a fact.
|
|
|
Post by 4372 on Jul 26, 2021 23:50:53 GMT
It isn't "irrespective" of Brexit though,is it,it is because of Brexit. The woman's status has changed because of the Brexit vote, not irrespective of it, or despite it. I agree that the UK and the EU put processes in place to manage the situation. But this lady was promised by Johnson, Gove and others that there would be no change to their status in the UK, and that their right to be here was to be automatic. The very least the government can do in these circumstances is help get EU citizens over the line. If that means giving individual help, either with money or clerical services, then it should be done. So, what do you do? Bury your head in the sand and pretend it didn’t happen and hope it was a nasty dream and the monsters will go away? It did happen and the UK and EU put measures in place. I’ll ask for the third time as you seem unable or unwilling to answer: How is this demeaning to this woman and if Brits in Spain had to follow the same process are they not capable of being demeaned, or are you choosing to see it solely from the EU point of view as you are still sore that the UK had the audacity to leave? You really need some help in accepting what has happened, it’s not healthy to pretend it hasn’t. I have answered your question, its just that you don't like the answer. British people in EU states were never given promises about their status. They were not misled. EU citizens living in the UK were misled. They were given advice in 2016, which was not accurate. That is disrespectful, demeaning behaviour. It would have been more honest to say to EU citizens in 2016: "We do not how this will work out, but we will help all who want to stay" . As for your wider concerns about my welfare, thank you, but your concerns are unfounded. I have plans in my head to live elsewhere, but for now all i can do is learn a new language. Nothing wrong with challenging Brexit. For me and many others, Brexit was sold as an all expenses paid trip to Bali-Hai, whereas what you seem to be getting is a one-way PMT bus ride to Burslem.
|
|
|
Post by dutchstokie on Jul 27, 2021 8:56:07 GMT
The same here in NL.....Start of the year received a letter telling me what to do and by when. I complied and it was a piece of piss to arrange. It's good to know. But were you told in 2016 that you would have an "automatic" right to stay, and that there would be "no change" to your status if Brexit occurred? This occured in October 2019 as Ive kept all the guff It wasnt an 'automatic right' but more of a 'if you intend to stay in The Netherlands, these are the steps you need to take to ensure you are legally registered.' I know of 3 English guys who married Ducth girls who went back to blighty. As I said it was more of a choice really
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Jul 27, 2021 9:00:21 GMT
So, what do you do? Bury your head in the sand and pretend it didn’t happen and hope it was a nasty dream and the monsters will go away? It did happen and the UK and EU put measures in place. I’ll ask for the third time as you seem unable or unwilling to answer: How is this demeaning to this woman and if Brits in Spain had to follow the same process are they not capable of being demeaned, or are you choosing to see it solely from the EU point of view as you are still sore that the UK had the audacity to leave? You really need some help in accepting what has happened, it’s not healthy to pretend it hasn’t. I have answered your question, its just that you don't like the answer. British people in EU states were never given promises about their status. They were not misled. EU citizens living in the UK were misled. They were given advice in 2016, which was not accurate. That is disrespectful, demeaning behaviour. It would have been more honest to say to EU citizens in 2016: "We do not how this will work out, but we will help all who want to stay" . As for your wider concerns about my welfare, thank you, but your concerns are unfounded. I have plans in my head to live elsewhere, but for now all i can do is learn a new language. Nothing wrong with challenging Brexit. For me and many others, Brexit was sold as an all expenses paid trip to Bali-Hai, whereas what you seem to be getting is a one-way PMT bus ride to Burslem. Politicians break promises….it’s what they do and will continue to do whilst they can still breathe. Not saying it’s right, but they should all be taken with a pinch of salt. I’ve read reports quoting your earlier post about what Boris promised, but not found the actual article or footage and context, I’m sure it’s out there though. However, even accepting it as gospel, how does it demean? To demean you shame, humiliate or degrade yet it appears the lady chose to bring attention to her issue herself. I just think demeaning is not the right context here when all that is being asked for is to submit to a process that granted was perhaps not what was set out. I would suggest it’s more misrepresentation than demeaning, a bit like the signings of Imbula, Wimmer and Vokes to name but a few 😂😂. I didn’t think Brexit would be without its challenges. I certainly didn’t believe it would be as you say you and many others were sold on this all expenses trip. I’ve yet to encounter anyone, aside from you as you say you were sold it, who saw it as this. Again, it’s what politicians do with over egging and over promising whilst under delivering to try and influence or gain support. I guess on the flip side it’s the same as the promises that the UK would explode and there would be biblical disasters…..funnily enough it didn’t happen and there’s little point getting too excited about it. Maybe I’m a little more sceptical and realistic about things rather than believing everything I hear. I wish you well in your plans to go and live elsewhere and hope you find your version of Bali-Hai that you are content with. As someone who was once fluent in two European languages I can advocate the benefits of learning other languages. Good luck.
|
|