|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 15, 2021 7:38:53 GMT
Doesn't matter that the EU don't have a free trade deal with Australia, it's too far away and their beef is radioactive anyway and the red bus figure was wrong. Thought I'd get in first. It's coming, and the EU probably won't cave in like we have with the fishermen, purely to sign a deal, any deal. Their bargaining power will be stronger than ours, obviously, so they'll no doubt achieve better terms. The desire on behalf of Australia is obvious...https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/negotiations/aeufta/default
|
|
|
Post by Kilo on Jun 15, 2021 8:07:06 GMT
Doesn't matter that the EU don't have a free trade deal with Australia, it's too far away and their beef is radioactive anyway and the red bus figure was wrong. Thought I'd get in first. It's coming, and the EU probably won't cave in like we have with the fishermen, purely to sign a deal, any deal. Their bargaining power will be stronger than ours, obviously, so they'll no doubt achieve better terms. The desire on behalf of Australia is obvious...https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/negotiations/aeufta/default Great to see they've launched negotiations but as remainers have stated hundreds of times on this thread, it can take ten years to agree a trade deal so perhaps just a little plus that Britain got it done quite quickly then?
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 9:20:50 GMT
It's coming, and the EU probably won't cave in like we have with the fishermen, purely to sign a deal, any deal. Their bargaining power will be stronger than ours, obviously, so they'll no doubt achieve better terms. The desire on behalf of Australia is obvious...https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/negotiations/aeufta/default Great to see they've launched negotiations but as remainers have stated hundreds of times on this thread, it can take ten years to agree a trade deal so perhaps just a little plus that Britain got it done quite quickly then? That is correct, the EU started trade negotiations with India in 2007 but they broke down in 2013, only to resume this year because the UK was making rapid progress on agreements. Then there is the question of ratification when an agreement is made. The EU - Canada trade agreement was made in 2016 but there are still many EU countries not ratified it. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_AgreementThe UK quickly rolled over the EU trade agreement with Canada last year and made a joint commitment to improving the agreement before the end of this year. It is debatable how important EU ratification is. The Commission's attitude now is that their decisions take precedence over individual countries. They are now prosecuting Germany because a German Court decided an EU policy on financial borrowing contravened the German constitution, but the EU position is that EU law takes precedence over individual countries. As for the UK - Australia trade deal this is another small but important step on our journey. The enhanced deal with Canada will be a bigger step due to size and geography. The big prize will be a deal with India which will have massive potential for the future as India becomes the largest nation in the world. Joining the trans Pacific trade organization will also be a significant step in improving relations with the rapidly growing economies in that part of the world, and will boost London's position as a major world financial centre. I expect the USA will rejoin the organization one day making it the largest trade organization in the world. A word of caution though on all this. Governments can issue their ambitious statements, but at the end of the day they do little trading. It is down to businesses to actually do the trading, which depends on the talents of people. That is where I have huge faith in our country. The UK economy is world wide focused and we have strong links with almost all parts of the globe, and pose no threat to anyone, except for a major economic threat to the EU.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 15, 2021 9:34:42 GMT
Brexit was about much more than trade.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 15, 2021 11:33:13 GMT
Great to see they've launched negotiations but as remainers have stated hundreds of times on this thread, it can take ten years to agree a trade deal so perhaps just a little plus that Britain got it done quite quickly then? That is correct, the EU started trade negotiations with India in 2007 but they broke down in 2013, only to resume this year because the UK was making rapid progress on agreements. Then there is the question of ratification when an agreement is made. The EU - Canada trade agreement was made in 2016 but there are still many EU countries not ratified it. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_AgreementThe UK quickly rolled over the EU trade agreement with Canada last year and made a joint commitment to improving the agreement before the end of this year. It is debatable how important EU ratification is. The Commission's attitude now is that their decisions take precedence over individual countries. They are now prosecuting Germany because a German Court decided an EU policy on financial borrowing contravened the German constitution, but the EU position is that EU law takes precedence over individual countries. As for the UK - Australia trade deal this is another small but important step on our journey. The enhanced deal with Canada will be a bigger step due to size and geography. The big prize will be a deal with India which will have massive potential for the future as India becomes the largest nation in the world. Joining the trans Pacific trade organization will also be a significant step in improving relations with the rapidly growing economies in that part of the world, and will boost London's position as a major world financial centre. I expect the USA will rejoin the organization one day making it the largest trade organization in the world. A word of caution though on all this. Governments can issue their ambitious statements, but at the end of the day they do little trading. It is down to businesses to actually do the trading, which depends on the talents of people. That is where I have huge faith in our country. The UK economy is world wide focused and we have strong links with almost all parts of the globe, and pose no threat to anyone, except for a major economic threat to the EU. And that's the crux of it. We've seen numerous times already that the brave words and promises haven't amounted to very much so far, at least in terms of Northern Ireland ("no British Prime Minister could ever allow a border in the Irish Sea" Boris Johnson, 2019) and the selling of the fishermen down the river... It's absolutely right to look beyond the dog whistle, button pushing rhetoric and see what it actually means, not that many people do, sadly.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 15, 2021 11:45:09 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 15, 2021 11:50:29 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc It'll be interesting to see the details, full stop. I think I'd hold off on the crowing about the success of the trade deal until the details and implications are apparent. So far, the fantastic deal we negotiated last December has resulted in lost trade, increased trouble in NI and the fishermen going nuts. Let's hope this one isn't as damaging to our farmers as has been indicated so far. It seems very detail light at the moment, possibly deliberately so, to 'celebrate' the deal, before moving onto something else while the details become apparent?
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 12:45:58 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc I think people exaggerate the problems. My wife's niece spent some years working in Australia in her younger days, got a good job and enjoyed herself. In the end though, she decided to return to the UK, got married and started a family, settled in York which has a thriving economy and is doing very well in her business career. My brother on the other hand emigrated back in the 60s and spent the rest of his life there. My sister married a New Zealander who was working in the UK as a civil engineer. They started a family and went to New Zealand for the rest of their lives. The point I am making it has always been possible to work in other countries. You don't need "schemes" although it obviously helps. Australia are desperate for skilled workers like electricians and teachers to go and work there, but there are a great many Aussies already come to work in the UK.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 15, 2021 13:37:45 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc I think people exaggerate the problems. My wife's niece spent some years working in Australia in her younger days, got a good job and enjoyed herself. In the end though, she decided to return to the UK, got married and started a family, settled in York which has a thriving economy and is doing very well in her business career. My brother on the other hand emigrated back in the 60s and spent the rest of his life there. My sister married a New Zealander who was working in the UK as a civil engineer. They started a family and went to New Zealand for the rest of their lives. The point I am making it has always been possible to work in other countries. You don't need "schemes" although it obviously helps. Australia are desperate for skilled workers like electricians and teachers to go and work there, but there are a great many Aussies already come to work in the UK. Living permanently is a bit different to a long working holiday though, 20 odd years ago there were no real restrictions then it became you could only work x hours for x months which made it more difficult, it seemed easier to work in the UK as basically you just needed a sponsor whereas when I looked to goto Australia after taking redundancy it was going to cost me £6k+ to apply and no guarentee of being accepted and to improve my chances I'd have to had accepted going anywhere so could have ended up in woolyginggong rather than brissy or melbourne so in the end I decided to go back to London and spend my £6k in the walkabout to see if I could get a free ticket Wasn't a complete success but probably had more fun for my £6k
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 15:44:40 GMT
Brexit was about much more than trade. I agree and have said so at length many times. Many remainers choose to forget the other benefits of sovereignty, democracy*, judicial independancs, etc. and persist in focussing on trade and the things that have not gone well like NI and fishing. On trade the remainers belittle Truss's achievements, forgetting that in 2016 they were saying it could take a decade to get a trade agreement with the EU, would take many years to secure trade agreements with other countries, quoting how long it took the EU and Canada to come to agreement, and saying the UK deals would not be as good as EU deals because the UK does not have the economic or political leverage. www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/reality-check-will-it-take-10-years-to-do-a-uk-eu-trade-deal-post-brexitThe reality, as with almost all the project fear warnings, has proved the opposite. Truss has rolled over 65 identical trade deals almost seamlessly. One African country proved problematic (Ghana I think) and delayed agreement due to internal politics and trying to squeeze a better deal out of the UK, but as soon as they started to be liable to WTO tariff on bananas they quickly agreed. Lots more agreements are in the pipeline, which no doubt the knockers will belittle. * democracy means many things, that differ to different people. For me, democracy means a government has a limited period of office and has to go to the people in a general election, at which the people can remove and change the government. The USA got rid of Trump, and the UK will have the opportunity to get rid of Johnson, although I suspect the Tory party would do that first if he became an election liability like Thatcher. At the moment Johnson is popular because he is leading the country in a "battle" against the pandemic and the EU. The British have a record of rallying behind their leader in time of attrition, but when it is over have no reservation in removing them as they did with Churchill. It is virtually impossible to remove the EU Comission leaders, who even after retirement exert strong influence.
|
|
|
Post by xchpotter on Jun 15, 2021 17:18:07 GMT
If it’s easier for Brits to go to Oz I can see plenty more taking it up.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 15, 2021 17:34:08 GMT
Of my particular students who have applied for a year abroad, still on course for Canada, USA and Australia. Japan cancelled becauseof Covid. I don't know of other applications.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 15, 2021 17:37:52 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 15, 2021 17:51:45 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc We're talking about working holiday visa's that meme just screams of someone being desperate to find something to cry over, they use hot brands on cattle that eventually get killed for steaks, all the food is labelled if you dont want aussie food dont buy it.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 17:56:32 GMT
A few positives in the post Brexit era. Not due to Brexit, in my opinion, but just the continuation of economic development. Perhaps irrespective of Brexit as opposed to despite Brexit. /news/new-nissan-qashqai-to-be-made-from-aluminium-following-52m-investment Big item on North East news today, Nissan start production of the all new version 3 Qashqai today: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-57476193This is the culmination of years of planning and investment. Next step will hopefully be a new battery manufacturing plant.
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Jun 15, 2021 17:59:56 GMT
We're talking about working holiday visa's that meme just screams of someone being desperate to find something to cry over, they use hot brands on cattle that eventually get killed for steaks, all the food is labelled if you dont want aussie food dont buy it. Imagine going through life seeing everything so negative. I bet his music collection's bloody depressing 😎
|
|
|
Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 15, 2021 18:09:16 GMT
We're talking about working holiday visa's that meme just screams of someone being desperate to find something to cry over, they use hot brands on cattle that eventually get killed for steaks, all the food is labelled if you dont want aussie food dont buy it. Imagine going through life seeing everything so negative. I bet his music collection's bloody depressing 😎 What’s his “beef”?😎
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 19:01:06 GMT
Be interesting to see the details of working in australia, I hope the young person working visa'a become alot more flexible in both countries if they do far more people will take advantage of this than erasmus etc etc What is the point you are making? Are you saying we should not be making a trade agreement with Australia? The UK has just rolled over 65 trade agreements the EU made with countries, many of which are just as bad or even worse than Australia. Or are you saying we should not trade with countries like Australia, USA, China etc. because of their animal welfare? api.worldanimalprotection.org/#Animal welfare is important, but is it as important as democracy, freedom, religious freedom, women's rights, racial equality, etc.? Australia has been ahead of the UK in the past on human rights, notably women's rights. Maybe they should have declined to fight with the UK in WWI when the UK didn't give women the vote, but they did? The human race is all moving forward on all fronts, but faster by some in some areas. I'm proud of UK's progress but not complacent.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Jun 15, 2021 19:23:44 GMT
What is the point you are making? Are you saying we should not be making a trade agreement with Australia? The UK has just rolled over 65 trade agreements the EU made with countries, many of which are just as bad or even worse than Australia. Or are you saying we should not trade with countries like Australia, USA, China etc. because of their animal welfare? api.worldanimalprotection.org/#Animal welfare is important, but is it as important as democracy, freedom, religious freedom, women's rights, racial equality, etc.? Australia has been ahead of the UK in the past on human rights, notably women's rights. Maybe they should have declined to fight with the UK in WWI when the UK didn't give women the vote, but they did? The human race is all moving forward on all fronts, but faster by some in some areas. I'm proud of UK's progress but not complacent. I think the point is Brexit means we are abandoning the EU for degenerate nations like Australia. After all, animal welfare is wonderful in the EU. Don’t believe a word you may read to the contrary, especially in the guardian... Shocking footage of ‘severely injured’ pigs on Spanish farms releasedUndercover footage at French farm shows ‘deplorable’ conditions for pigsAbuse of animals rife on farms across Europe, auditors warn
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 15, 2021 20:17:47 GMT
What is the point you are making? Are you saying we should not be making a trade agreement with Australia? The UK has just rolled over 65 trade agreements the EU made with countries, many of which are just as bad or even worse than Australia. Or are you saying we should not trade with countries like Australia, USA, China etc. because of their animal welfare? api.worldanimalprotection.org/#Animal welfare is important, but is it as important as democracy, freedom, religious freedom, women's rights, racial equality, etc.? Australia has been ahead of the UK in the past on human rights, notably women's rights. Maybe they should have declined to fight with the UK in WWI when the UK didn't give women the vote, but they did? The human race is all moving forward on all fronts, but faster by some in some areas. I'm proud of UK's progress but not complacent. I think the point is Brexit means we are abandoning the EU for degenerate nations like Australia. After all, animal welfare is wonderful in the EU. Don’t believe a word you may read to the contrary, especially in the guardian... Shocking footage of ‘severely injured’ pigs on Spanish farms releasedUndercover footage at French farm shows ‘deplorable’ conditions for pigsAbuse of animals rife on farms across Europe, auditors warnAnd bullfighting
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 15, 2021 21:29:23 GMT
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 15, 2021 21:54:58 GMT
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 23:02:31 GMT
As another day draws to a close I go to bed appalled and disgusted by the British media and the lies and exaggerations about the trade deal with Australia.
The use of %s to totally distort the figures to confuse or deliberately mislead the public is shocking. I have become quite used to this with the Guardian and Independent who have reduced their journalism to the level of the gutter right wing press during Brexit, but I am equally appalled today by the BBC and Sky reporting.
I don't believe the deal with Australia in itself will be any sort of large boost to the economy, but the way the media belittle it as irrelevant is disgraceful. Plus there are constant references by comparison to anticipated huge loss in trade with the EU, which is just another example of project fear. Trade has declined with the EU recently but there is no clear evidence on whether it is due to Brexit apart from some minor food sales (mainly shellfish and cheese) or the effects of the pandemic. Exports and imports with the EU have dropped since 2019 but are higher than they were before the referendum in 2016 and the UK has actually improved its balance of trade with the EU this year, by imports dropping more (particularly from Germany) than exports.
Sky today has published a long article on the UK Australia trade deal comparing todays trade with Australia with the last 170 years! Are they so dumb as not to realise world trade has changed hugely in the last two decades due to the massive growth and trade of China and other BRIC economies. The EU share of the world economy has dropped from a third to less than a fifth over the last four decades, and in steady decline. (Naughty me there I am quoting %s)
Then there is the subject of beef. Firstly the UK law remains the same on animal welfare, use of hormones etc. nothing has changed since we left the EU. The quota of beef allowed into the UK from Australia is to increase over 15 years and Sky correctly point out "According to numbers released by the Australian government (.....), the quotas on Australian beef imports into the UK will go up from just under 5,000 tonnes at present to a whopping 35,000 tonnes* immediately after the deal is signed." To put that statement in context the UK beef and veal market is over 900,000 tonnes pa. which includes 250,000 to 275,000 tonnes of imported beef. The UK is just 75% self sufficient in beef. We are not going to be swamped with Australian beef. * which Sky describe as a 7 fold increase on present import quota from Australia.
Regarding lamb, or to be more correct sheep meat, the quota increase from 15,000 to 25,000 tonne pa. To put that in context, the UK currently imports 100,000 tonnes of sheep meat which represents a third of what we consume. Much of that 100,000 tonne will be Australian meat already.
Having tried to scare the British public with the tonnage figures quoted (with no reference to the actual current stats I have quoted above) Sky then go on to say "On the flip side, all the current food standards which apply in the UK will remain in place: so no hormone-fed beef, for instance. Will that mean Britain will have an immediate influx of Australian beef and lamb? Probably not. Australian farmers are, as things stand, quite happy to focus their attention on closer markets in Asia than sending their products around the world -" Good of them to add a bit of balance!
The BBC can hardly be bothered to report the deal and make statement s like "farmers concerned" with some very lame quotes, and make statements like "sacrifices made" with no reference to facts and keep referring to the large amount of trade with the EU as though it is going to disappear. I would suggest if there is anyone worried by this UK deal with Australia it is Irish farmers, who supply the lion's share of UK meat imports.
Edit: Bassett former Irish diplomat:
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 15, 2021 23:06:31 GMT
God grief that is shocking. People will be eating horses, frogs, snails, fish eggs, blood, brains, stomachs, and goodness know what else next!
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 16, 2021 5:38:02 GMT
God grief that is shocking. People will be eating horses, frogs, snails, fish eggs, blood, brains, stomachs, and goodness know what else next! I think his point is that Vietnam does not have a good record of animal welfare. It is given an F on the Animal Protection Index, which is lower than any European country listed apart from Belarus (which is not in the EU). api.worldanimalprotection.org/If anyone is truly concerned about animal welfare, and not just virtue signalling to make cheap political points, they should have concerns about entering a CPTPP that contains Vietnam.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 16, 2021 6:12:20 GMT
God grief that is shocking. People will be eating horses, frogs, snails, fish eggs, blood, brains, stomachs, and goodness know what else next! I think his point is that Vietnam does not have a good record of animal welfare. It is given an F on the Animal Protection Index, which is lower than any European country listed apart from Belarus (which is not in the EU). api.worldanimalprotection.org/If anyone is truly concerned about animal welfare, and not just virtue signalling to make cheap political points, they should have concerns about entering a CPTPP that contains Vietnam. Neither does China but it doesn’t seem to stop the rest of the world buying their tat
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 16, 2021 6:26:01 GMT
God grief that is shocking. People will be eating horses, frogs, snails, fish eggs, blood, brains, stomachs, and goodness know what else next! I think his point is that Vietnam does not have a good record of animal welfare. It is given an F on the Animal Protection Index, which is lower than any European country listed apart from Belarus (which is not in the EU). api.worldanimalprotection.org/If anyone is truly concerned about animal welfare, and not just virtue signalling to make cheap political points, they should have concerns about entering a CPTPP that contains Vietnam. Correct animal welfare is something humanity should be concerned about wherever it occurs, whether state approved, culturally or on an individual basis. Indeed You should not make cheap political points. Plenty of individual examples from the UK I believe that how a person/ persons treat animals says alot about them.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Jun 16, 2021 6:41:07 GMT
I think his point is that Vietnam does not have a good record of animal welfare. It is given an F on the Animal Protection Index, which is lower than any European country listed apart from Belarus (which is not in the EU). api.worldanimalprotection.org/If anyone is truly concerned about animal welfare, and not just virtue signalling to make cheap political points, they should have concerns about entering a CPTPP that contains Vietnam. Neither does China but it doesn’t seem to stop the rest of the world buying their tat I hope you’re not suggesting hypocrisy on the part of the critics of the new trade deal with Australia.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 16, 2021 7:02:54 GMT
What is the point you are making? Are you saying we should not be making a trade agreement with Australia? The UK has just rolled over 65 trade agreements the EU made with countries, many of which are just as bad or even worse than Australia. Or are you saying we should not trade with countries like Australia, USA, China etc. because of their animal welfare? api.worldanimalprotection.org/#Animal welfare is important, but is it as important as democracy, freedom, religious freedom, women's rights, racial equality, etc.? Australia has been ahead of the UK in the past on human rights, notably women's rights. Maybe they should have declined to fight with the UK in WWI when the UK didn't give women the vote, but they did? The human race is all moving forward on all fronts, but faster by some in some areas. I'm proud of UK's progress but not complacent.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Jun 16, 2021 7:41:54 GMT
What is the point you are making? Are you saying we should not be making a trade agreement with Australia? The UK has just rolled over 65 trade agreements the EU made with countries, many of which are just as bad or even worse than Australia. Or are you saying we should not trade with countries like Australia, USA, China etc. because of their animal welfare? api.worldanimalprotection.org/#Animal welfare is important, but is it as important as democracy, freedom, religious freedom, women's rights, racial equality, etc.? Australia has been ahead of the UK in the past on human rights, notably women's rights. Maybe they should have declined to fight with the UK in WWI when the UK didn't give women the vote, but they did? The human race is all moving forward on all fronts, but faster by some in some areas. I'm proud of UK's progress but not complacent. So the deal making it easier for Australia to sell in the UK is a negative, but making it easier for the UK to sell in the Australia isn't a positive? Even if that were actually proved to be the case, I believe reducing the UK's massive dependence on the EU for our food was a good thing. As I have repeatedly said, what actually happens depends on businesses responding to opportunities presented, which is something the UK is quite good at. Governments don't actually do much trading themselves at all.
|
|