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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2020 9:59:32 GMT
From your link( see below) "the UK had wanted to maintain the same access to shared databases that it has now, but the EU says that is not on offer to non-members"..........perhaps the EU should make it on offer to allies in the fight against terrorism? Neil Basu told the BBC's Newscast podcast a deal was "incredibly important for the safety and security of our country". He said he was hopeful of a better security and law enforcement agreement than the UK currently has. The government said the safety and security of citizens was a priority. Talks between the UK and EU are ongoing ahead of the 31 December deadline for a deal. The UK left the EU on 31 January, but continues to follow current EU rules until the end of the year while negotiations take place. Any deal would need to be ratified by parliaments on both sides. On security, the UK had wanted to maintain the same access to shared databases that it has now, but the EU says that is not on offer to non-members. Classic brexiteer. You think the eu should give us access to their databases for nothing. You fell for the lies completely. Do you think anything we invent in this country or have access to that could benefit others should be given away for free to any other nation? Should the EU get free and unfettered access to our fishing waters with nothing coming back to us in exchange? And our benefits system? Nothing democratic about a once in a generation vote tainted by lies which you (and many others) fell for. The majority have never wanted to leave without a deal. Yet that seems a very good chance Who paid for the database to be created? Most EU countries are financial beneficiaries from EU membership. You should know, it's your money they have been getting for the past 45 years, to spend on things like creating the database. (We have left the golf club, are we not allowed to pay to use the course in future?) You are right about the majority not wanting to leave without a deal. But, for example, the vast majority of British companies do not deal with the EU, but the EU still insists on control through laws like employment law to maintain their concept of "a level playing field". Even for those companies that export, most exports are not to EU countries, but the EU wants to control our companies that export to none EU countries, by for example limiting government financial assistance. That is not acceptable. Our laws should be passed in a parliament, we voted for. I want a deal, but a fair deal. No deal is better than a bad deal. As I have posted before, I see no reason we could not come to a mutually acceptable agreement on security, as we had before we joined the EEC (see Forsyth's "The Day of the Jackal")
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2020 10:07:29 GMT
and I totally agree with you bj. The reason Johnson won a huge majority (apart from the voting system issue*) was because he caught the mood of the country by saying "let's get Brexit done". People were sick and tired of the politicians bickering. The MPs who surprisingly won their seats, and those that nearly lost them, now see the writing on the wall and will keep quiet till the dust settles. * Much as I didn't want Johnson or Corbyn as my PM, a worse outcome under proportional representation would have been a puppet PM with a Scottish or Irish hand up his backside which is what happens with coalitions. Imagine a government with Corbyn as MP and bribing relying on Sturgeon to stay in power. Imagine a right-wing government with an 80 seat majority elected via a FPTP system fucking things up on a daily basis. Oh, we don't have to... But you can remove them at the next election. That's democracy. You cannot remove EU control, except by leaving, which is what the country voted for at the GE. Nobody was voting for the best party to manage a pandemic, but imagine a Corbyn/Sturgeon alliance managing that!
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2020 10:21:04 GMT
The essence of the article is that we need to cooperate on counter terrorism....and that the government gets that. The article says.... "Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Mr Basu told BBC Newscast: "We need to negotiate a security treaty that either retains or improves on the current position that we've got today" "It's incredibly important for the safety and security of our country. And I know the government gets that. And I know that that is what it's aiming for." When asked what a no-deal Brexit would mean for UK security, he said: "The country would be less safe in a non-negotiated outcome where a security treaty wasn't forthcoming. That's the bottom line." I would not have thought anyone could disagree with that.....perhaps the EU might for political reasons. I think that we should cooperate to oppose terrorism. Apparently we have some of the best intelligence and expertise in counter terrorism, based upon the experience during the Troubles....should we charge the EU for access? But I thought leave meant leave!? You can’t leave something and expect membership benefits to continue. There are poor people in this country. They need to feed their kids. Nobody could disagree with that? So do we give everyone automatic access to benefits regardless of circumstances so they can feed and house their children ? Leave means leave, but we are leaving the EU not Europe. There is no reason to destroy mutually agreeable arrangements on many issues, such as security, travel, research, space, etc. provided the UK pays it's share. It is not necessary to be part of a European government, for these things to happen, but the European Commission wants to control everything. Greenland chose to leave the EU because the EU wanted to control its fishing.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2020 10:37:29 GMT
Imagine a right-wing government with an 80 seat majority elected via a FPTP system fucking things up on a daily basis. Oh, we don't have to... But you can remove them at the next election. That's democracy. You cannot remove EU control, except by leaving, which is what the country voted for at the GE. Nobody was voting for the best party to manage a pandemic, but imagine a Corbyn/Sturgeon alliance managing that! Don't know if you saw the news at all yesterday, but Sturgeon's approval rating for Covid was 74%, Bluffer's at 19%! Scotland has PR by the way! So feel free to content yourself with the rather fatuous position of imagining how bad a fantasy government elected under a fantasy electoral system might be, while the rest of us handle the reality of dealing with an 80 seat majority Tory government elected under FPTP screwing things up on a daily basis. As I said before, it's not the system of PR or even FPTP that lead to bad governance, it's the individuals. See the current government for details! However, PR is a much fairer and more representative system which is less likely to lead to this kind of persistent cock up because, by default, other opinions will need to be considered to achieve a policy consensus.
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 20, 2020 11:04:30 GMT
and I totally agree with you bj. The reason Johnson won a huge majority (apart from the voting system issue*) was because he caught the mood of the country by saying "let's get Brexit done". People were sick and tired of the politicians bickering. The MPs who surprisingly won their seats, and those that nearly lost them, now see the writing on the wall and will keep quiet till the dust settles. * Much as I didn't want Johnson or Corbyn as my PM, a worse outcome under proportional representation would have been a puppet PM with a Scottish or Irish hand up his backside which is what happens with coalitions. Imagine a government with Corbyn as MP and bribing relying on Sturgeon to stay in power. Imagine a right-wing government with an 80 seat majority elected via a FPTP system fucking things up on a daily basis. Oh, we don't have to... Still better than wee jimmy krankie having any real power
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2020 20:40:35 GMT
Security has got fuck all to do with trade. It's not about 'us' using 'their' database, it's about sharing information between both sides to prevent crime. Anybody who thinks its right to use security as a bargaining chip in the negotiations is an idiot and anyone in any position of power should be removed if they think the same. Trade deals regularly cover a lot more than just trade
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2020 20:41:34 GMT
Classic brexiteer. You think the eu should give us access to their databases for nothing. You fell for the lies completely. Do you think anything we invent in this country or have access to that could benefit others should be given away for free to any other nation? Should the EU get free and unfettered access to our fishing waters with nothing coming back to us in exchange? And our benefits system? Nothing democratic about a once in a generation vote tainted by lies which you (and many others) fell for. The majority have never wanted to leave without a deal. Yet that seems a very good chance Who paid for the database to be created? Most EU countries are financial beneficiaries from EU membership. You should know, it's your money they have been getting for the past 45 years, to spend on things like creating the database. (We have left the golf club, are we not allowed to pay to use the course in future?) You are right about the majority not wanting to leave without a deal. But, for example, the vast majority of British companies do not deal with the EU, but the EU still insists on control through laws like employment law to maintain their concept of "a level playing field". Even for those companies that export, most exports are not to EU countries, but the EU wants to control our companies that export to none EU countries, by for example limiting government financial assistance. That is not acceptable. Our laws should be passed in a parliament, we voted for. I want a deal, but a fair deal. No deal is better than a bad deal. As I have posted before, I see no reason we could not come to a mutually acceptable agreement on security, as we had before we joined the EEC (see Forsyth's "The Day of the Jackal") Yes, pay to use the course in future. Not use it for free
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2020 20:43:24 GMT
But I thought leave meant leave!? You can’t leave something and expect membership benefits to continue. There are poor people in this country. They need to feed their kids. Nobody could disagree with that? So do we give everyone automatic access to benefits regardless of circumstances so they can feed and house their children ? Leave means leave, but we are leaving the EU not Europe. There is no reason to destroy mutually agreeable arrangements on many issues, such as security, travel, research, space, etc. provided the UK pays it's share. It is not necessary to be part of a European government, for these things to happen, but the European Commission wants to control everything. Greenland chose to leave the EU because the EU wanted to control its fishing. Anyone who voted leave voted to destroy those agreements.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2020 20:45:04 GMT
blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/05/21/long-read-does-the-eu-stop-britain-from-using-state-aid-to-help-its-economy/Meanwhile many countries in the EU turn a blind eye to state aid and rules. I have given countless examples in previous posts of German cartel, ignoring CE marking rules, lower standards on safety of guarding and electrical regulations across the EU, funding of environmental projects in The Netherlands, government loans to Italian and Irish steel, environment laws ignored by Italian steelworks. I have posted countless links to examples of these. I used to Chair a European committee and the Germans had the largest representation, because they had the largest industry. What the German said was what happened, and all their neighbouring countries towed the line. Or maybe that should be "came to heel". The post on German car investment initiated this latest discussion. Some of us haven't forgotten "dieselgate". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal So the only way to invest in jobs and industry in the uk is by direct state aid!? Also we often haven’t used as much state aid as available to us. So, again, why would state aid suddenly increase when it could have during our time within the eu? I have found this article which goes some way to answering your second question: www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/20/brexit-britain-can-spend-as-much-as-it-wants
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2020 20:46:52 GMT
But I thought leave meant leave!? You can’t leave something and expect membership benefits to continue. There are poor people in this country. They need to feed their kids. Nobody could disagree with that? So do we give everyone automatic access to benefits regardless of circumstances so they can feed and house their children ? I've no idea what you are talking about. Governments should represent people, particularly make an effort to include the downtrodden and excluded,strive to get a system whereby each contributes to their ability and receives the benefits of that society. No one should starve or be homeless or depend upon benefits as a lifestyle choice. I think that you are saying that all the above exist whilst we are in the EU? I think that you might be trying to get the moral high ground and equate it to Brexit. You said nobody could disagree with helping one another to stop terrorism and then blamed the EU for us choosing to lose access to their security database. I said nobody could disagree with feeding hungry children, but that doesn’t mean the UK government feed all hungry children/give their parents money for food. Live with the decision you made when you chose to vote leave which meant this country losing access to the EU security database. Don’t whine about it. At least you chose that. I didn’t but it is forced upon me by voters like you who clearly didn’t know what their leave vote meant.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2020 20:48:49 GMT
So you solution is to simply print money to pay for anything? I imagine that will impact inflation and the devalue our currency.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 20, 2020 20:49:58 GMT
A no deal brexit will hit those in that red line hardest In your opinion Yes. Who do you think will be hit hardest then if not them?
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Post by Kilo on Nov 20, 2020 21:04:13 GMT
Security has got fuck all to do with trade. It's not about 'us' using 'their' database, it's about sharing information between both sides to prevent crime. Anybody who thinks its right to use security as a bargaining chip in the negotiations is an idiot and anyone in any position of power should be removed if they think the same. Trade deals regularly cover a lot more than just trade I never said they didn't. Does that mean you think it's OK to use the security of both the UK and Europe as a bargaining chip in these negotiations then?
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2020 21:06:38 GMT
So you solution is to simply print money to pay for anything? I imagine that will impact inflation and the devalue our currency. Read the article. It says limiting inflation is a necessary consideration.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 20, 2020 21:13:21 GMT
Leave means leave, but we are leaving the EU not Europe. There is no reason to destroy mutually agreeable arrangements on many issues, such as security, travel, research, space, etc. provided the UK pays it's share. It is not necessary to be part of a European government, for these things to happen, but the European Commission wants to control everything. Greenland chose to leave the EU because the EU wanted to control its fishing. Anyone who voted leave voted to destroy those agreements. That is just childish nonsense. There are a great many European based organisations and projects that are not controlled by the EU which EU member states participate in. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_organisations_in_EuropeSome preceded the EU. Some are based in EU countries like the International Court in the Hague. Some in Switzerland, not in the EU. Interpol is a world wide organization based in France. The CERN project is a perfect example of cooperation between EU members and non members. Interestingly Ireland is not a member. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 20, 2020 21:17:52 GMT
I've no idea what you are talking about. Governments should represent people, particularly make an effort to include the downtrodden and excluded,strive to get a system whereby each contributes to their ability and receives the benefits of that society. No one should starve or be homeless or depend upon benefits as a lifestyle choice. I think that you are saying that all the above exist whilst we are in the EU? I think that you might be trying to get the moral high ground and equate it to Brexit. You said nobody could disagree with helping one another to stop terrorism and then blamed the EU for us choosing to lose access to their security database. I said nobody could disagree with feeding hungry children, but that doesn’t mean the UK government feed all hungry children/give their parents money for food. Live with the decision you made when you chose to vote leave which meant this country losing access to the EU security database. Don’t whine about it. At least you chose that. I didn’t but it is forced upon me by voters like you who clearly didn’t know what their leave vote meant. I'll survive Oggy, in fact I'm more convinced than ever with my stance; try to come to terms with the referendum result, you seem to keep repeating your anger/ disappointment in hundreds of different ways, I honestly don't think it's doing you any good.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 20, 2020 21:28:39 GMT
You said nobody could disagree with helping one another to stop terrorism and then blamed the EU for us choosing to lose access to their security database. I said nobody could disagree with feeding hungry children, but that doesn’t mean the UK government feed all hungry children/give their parents money for food. Live with the decision you made when you chose to vote leave which meant this country losing access to the EU security database. Don’t whine about it. At least you chose that. I didn’t but it is forced upon me by voters like you who clearly didn’t know what their leave vote meant. I'll survive Oggy, in fact I'm more convinced than ever with my stance; try to come to terms with the referendum result, you seem to keep repeating your anger/ disappointment in hundreds of different ways, I honestly don't think it's doing you any good. He needs to let it go.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Nov 21, 2020 18:20:22 GMT
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on Nov 21, 2020 20:29:11 GMT
You've a funny way of showing the love of your country. Don't you think Lord Kerr is wrong in talking about one party" coming to heel"? Hardly shows mutual respect....and he's a British Lord. So by your reckoning if the two sides of this current negotiation, being supremely competent, cannot agree, it is best , regrettably, to end in no-deal and move on. It is better than either side relinquishing their integrity. If you love your country you voted remain. If you hate your country and want it poorer and to break up the UK, you voted leave. Complete and utter horseshit.
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Post by slicko on Nov 21, 2020 20:39:08 GMT
I’ll take 25 pine logs and Bojan back please, Chuck.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Nov 21, 2020 20:43:35 GMT
[br It was reported on the news and it is the same deal that already exists
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 22, 2020 7:01:44 GMT
[br It was reported on the news and it is the same deal that already exists Same deal that already exists wouldn’t that be covered by the word rollover
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2020 7:51:10 GMT
You said nobody could disagree with helping one another to stop terrorism and then blamed the EU for us choosing to lose access to their security database. I said nobody could disagree with feeding hungry children, but that doesn’t mean the UK government feed all hungry children/give their parents money for food. Live with the decision you made when you chose to vote leave which meant this country losing access to the EU security database. Don’t whine about it. At least you chose that. I didn’t but it is forced upon me by voters like you who clearly didn’t know what their leave vote meant. I'll survive Oggy, in fact I'm more convinced than ever with my stance; try to come to terms with the referendum result, you seem to keep repeating your anger/ disappointment in hundreds of different ways, I honestly don't think it's doing you any good. Brexit isn’t good for any of us! You’re more evasive than Michael Gove
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2020 7:52:23 GMT
If you love your country you voted remain. If you hate your country and want it poorer and to break up the UK, you voted leave. Complete and utter horseshit. I get accused of hating my country for voting remain. I’m allowed to say it back to brexiteers, particularly when we are far closer to breaking up the union now than ever before.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2020 8:04:01 GMT
I'll survive Oggy, in fact I'm more convinced than ever with my stance; try to come to terms with the referendum result, you seem to keep repeating your anger/ disappointment in hundreds of different ways, I honestly don't think it's doing you any good. Brexit isn’t good for any of us! You’re more evasive than Michael Gove That is your opinion and you are entitled to it of course. When we had the referendum, a binary referendum, those who voted to leave outnumbered those who voted remain, and we should get on with it , for better or for worse, just like we did following Hugh Gaitskell's defeat in 1959.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2020 8:06:01 GMT
Anyone who voted leave voted to destroy those agreements. That is just childish nonsense. There are a great many European based organisations and projects that are not controlled by the EU which EU member states participate in. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_organisations_in_EuropeSome preceded the EU. Some are based in EU countries like the International Court in the Hague. Some in Switzerland, not in the EU. Interpol is a world wide organization based in France. The CERN project is a perfect example of cooperation between EU members and non members. Interestingly Ireland is not a member. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERNClearly you don’t understand what being a member of the eu gets you and got us. Obviously anything not related to the EU we can still be a member of. You didn’t vote to leave them. I’m surprised I have to spell that out to you. What we are talking about are the security systems that are EU run and related that you voted to leave: the european arrest warrant, - requiring another member state to arrest a suspect and return them to you the schegen information system - to find information about individuals and entities for the purposes of national security, border control and law enforcement. Some non-eu countries have a deal that makes them part of it. Prum convention- only 14 EU nations sign up to this and several others participate in it. It is about sharing info on DNA, vehicles, fingerprints. Ironically we were not part of it but after the brexit vote we joined it! I’m sure all leavers were foaming at the mouth about it and furious. You were sold a lie that we could have access to all these things in a trade deal, the same people who sold you that lie also created arbitrary red lines which prohibits us from access. That means you voted to make the UK less safe.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2020 8:07:23 GMT
Complete and utter horseshit. I get accused of hating my country for voting remain. I’m allowed to say it back to brexiteers, particularly when we are far closer to breaking up the union now than ever before. No one is accusing those who voted remain of not loving their country. In your case in my opinion, you constantly give the impression that one reason that we should have remained is because we are not good enough, not good enough to be an independent country, not as good as the EU.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2020 8:08:23 GMT
Brexit isn’t good for any of us! You’re more evasive than Michael Gove That is your opinion and you are entitled to it of course. When we had the referendum, a binary referendum, those who voted to leave outnumbered those who voted remain, and we should get on with it , for better or for worse, just like we did following Hugh Gaitskell's defeat in 1959. Perhaps, but if we are to do that we should at least follow what we were all told the leave vote was for. Not take the most extreme option that the majority do not want. What’s the point in a referendum if you ignore the options and take a third way, which is what we are doing? Not very democratic. Signs looking better for at least some sort of deal. Not nearly as much as the leave campaigners promised of course.
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 22, 2020 8:11:40 GMT
I get accused of hating my country for voting remain. I’m allowed to say it back to brexiteers, particularly when we are far closer to breaking up the union now than ever before. No one is accusing those who voted remain of not loving their country. In your case in my opinion, you constantly give the impression that one reason that we should have remained is because we are not good enough, not good enough to be an independent country, not as good as the EU. You did! You literally said I must hate my country. That type of nationalism I hate. Where if you don’t hate people of different origins or cultures then you hate your country. That’s dangerous nonsense and whilst not all brexiteers are like that, everyone who is like that is a brexiteer. I have NEVER said we are not good enough. We live in a much worse country now than we did before the vote (opinion) and things will get worse when brexit actually hits
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 22, 2020 8:50:34 GMT
No one is accusing those who voted remain of not loving their country. In your case in my opinion, you constantly give the impression that one reason that we should have remained is because we are not good enough, not good enough to be an independent country, not as good as the EU. You did! You literally said I must hate my country. That type of nationalism I hate. Where if you don’t hate people of different origins or cultures then you hate your country. That’s dangerous nonsense and whilst not all brexiteers are like that, everyone who is like that is a brexiteer. I have NEVER said we are not good enough. We live in a much worse country now than we did before the vote (opinion) and things will get worse when brexit actually hits Not saying that you hate your country " for voting remain" but that you need to frame your ""argument "" in that way then generalise.... Obviously I believe that you think that Remaining is the best thing for the Country. It's just your plethora of posts running down the country in support of it and YOUR unacceptance that others think differently I don't hate people of different cultures, far from it. Now you make things up about Brexiteers and argue against them to try to discredit Leavers.
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