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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 5, 2020 9:13:32 GMT
Surely we have already 'escaped' the EU? I very much doubt that the talks taking place at the moment are driven by the EU trying to achieve political and economic union with the UK and are in fact pretty much about the future trading relationship with the UK. We have signed a trade deal with Japan which has rules. When we sign one with the US it will have rules. If we have one with the EU it will have rules, although to some the perception of 'rules with the EU' invariably translates into 'loss of sovereignty'. When the UK invoked article 50 to leave, the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and others claimed that the UK is legally prevented while it remains an EU member from formally negotiating and concluding post-exit trade agreements with non-member countries till the UK had left the EU. This was despite the fact that Switzerland, which has a free trade agreement with the EU, have been free to negotiate trade deals with none EU countries. The duplicity of the EU beggars belief. Thankfully our government ignored them and got on with negotiations. Switzerland has never been a member of the EU. The UK was. Presumably, that's why the two countries have different sets of rules applied to them? Now that we have left the EU we can negotiate our own trade deals with other countries, as we are doing, and as Switzerland presumably has done all along as a non-member of the EU. I wouldn't have thought that beggared belief really?
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 5, 2020 9:26:31 GMT
Not sure what point you are trying to make. The EU employs over 30,000 people in Brussels administering the EU and that doesn't include the EU Court of Justice. Obviously they were doing jobs that including administering the UK which we have ceased to pay for apart from our long term commitment we have made in the separation agreement for long term costs incurred when we were members such as pensions. The UK government naturally has to set up departments to pick up on administering UK affairs previously dealt with by the EU such as negotiating trade agreements. Whether or not they are direct employees or contracted employees is a matter of choice. Maybe you prefer to have a UK government and civil service that is employed to "rubber stamp" EU directives to make UK law? Of course if the UK had preferred we could have remained in the EU and paid for Brussels to do everything for the UK. We were quite good at paying: www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/Of course the UK was not the only net contributor to the EU, so are Germany, France, and The Netherlands for example. But those countries enjoy huge positive trade balances with the rest of the EU, so effectively the other members were "getting their money back". The UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, so we are effectively paying a large membership fee to be part of a free trade zone where we buy from other members more than they buy from us! I have no doubt that the UK government will make a mess of our leaving, but at least our costs will stay in house, and now we are far freer to maximise our positive trade balance with the rest of the world.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 5, 2020 9:31:56 GMT
When the UK invoked article 50 to leave, the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and others claimed that the UK is legally prevented while it remains an EU member from formally negotiating and concluding post-exit trade agreements with non-member countries till the UK had left the EU. This was despite the fact that Switzerland, which has a free trade agreement with the EU, have been free to negotiate trade deals with none EU countries. The duplicity of the EU beggars belief. Thankfully our government ignored them and got on with negotiations. Switzerland has never been a member of the EU. The UK was. Presumably, that's why the two countries have different sets of rules applied to them? Now that we have left the EU we can negotiate our own trade deals with other countries, as we are doing, and as Switzerland presumably has done all along as a non-member of the EU. I wouldn't have thought that beggared belief really? So you think it is OK when the UK starts the process of leaving (A50) for the EU to say the UK cannot start negotiating with other countries till we have actually left. We differ.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 5, 2020 9:46:05 GMT
Switzerland has never been a member of the EU. The UK was. Presumably, that's why the two countries have different sets of rules applied to them? Now that we have left the EU we can negotiate our own trade deals with other countries, as we are doing, and as Switzerland presumably has done all along as a non-member of the EU. I wouldn't have thought that beggared belief really? So you think it is OK when the UK starts the process of leaving (A50) for the EU to say the UK cannot start negotiating with other countries till we have actually left. We differ. Yes, it seems fair enough to expect a country to abide by the rules until they've actually left Imagine if you resigned from your company and were serving a six month period of notice and your company said, you've started the process of leaving, we don't need to honour the agreement we had to pay you so we won't be doing so any more...I can't see you accepting that! I'm just saying I would have thought it fairly obvious that a country which signed up to a treaty on membership of an organisation (the EU) should have to abide by the rules of the organisation it signed up to while remaining a member of it, whereas a country which didn't do that and wasn't a member of it doesn't have to abide by the same rules. I don't see that as duplicitous or beggaring belief, it seems entirely understandable and reasonable. Is it safe to presume that the fact that all other countries which have also never been members of the EU and who have continued to strike their own trade deals with other countries has also incurred your wrath at the EU as a result?
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 5, 2020 10:36:38 GMT
Not sure what point you are trying to make. The EU employs over 30,000 people in Brussels administering the EU and that doesn't include the EU Court of Justice. Obviously they were doing jobs that including administering the UK which we have ceased to pay for apart from our long term commitment we have made in the separation agreement for long term costs incurred when we were members such as pensions. The UK government naturally has to set up departments to pick up on administering UK affairs previously dealt with by the EU such as negotiating trade agreements. Whether or not they are direct employees or contracted employees is a matter of choice. Maybe you prefer to have a UK government and civil service that is employed to "rubber stamp" EU directives to make UK law? Of course if the UK had preferred we could have remained in the EU and paid for Brussels to do everything for the UK. We were quite good at paying: www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/Of course the UK was not the only net contributor to the EU, so are Germany, France, and The Netherlands for example. But those countries enjoy huge positive trade balances with the rest of the EU, so effectively the other members were "getting their money back". The UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, so we are effectively paying a large membership fee to be part of a free trade zone where we buy from other members more than they buy from us! I have no doubt that the UK government will make a mess of our leaving, but at least our costs will stay in house, and now we are far freer to maximise our positive trade balance with the rest of the world. He only ever has one point... Everything is shit... and it’s the Tories fault. (Or is that two points?).
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 5, 2020 13:25:15 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 5, 2020 14:28:41 GMT
According to a Barnier post the main sticking point is the so called "level playing field". Despite the facts that most UK exports are to none EU countries, and for example rising rapidly with China pre pandemic, and most UK companies do not sell to the EU, the EU is still insisting that the UK conforms with EU employment law and government assistance to companies. Most English speaking countries and BRIC countries economies have grown faster than the EU in recent decades and the EU are deeply concerned that there will be major investment by RoW in the UK at EU expense if the UK is free to determine its own laws. We do not have a level playing field. In my experience UK regulations on health and safety are much more onerous than in many EU countries. It looks like we are heading for no deal, and move to WTO rules, under which most UK exports are already done. www.export.org.uk/news/472306/Increase-of-UK-exports-to-non-EU-countries.htm
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 6, 2020 6:46:17 GMT
Running a business ? Struggling to stay afloat through the impact of Covid and lockdown? Unable to prepare for new trading conditions in 2021 because nobody's told you what they are going to be yet? Concerned because the required infrastructure is not yet in place at the borders ? Of course, as the Government said the the other week, it's your fault for not preparing, deal or not: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54829094Thankfully where I work can take comfort from the fact that we don't export to the EU but have high value exports to Asia. Unfortunately if we don't get certain materials in time from the EU we can't make anything to export.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 6, 2020 9:56:10 GMT
Running a business ? Struggling to stay afloat through the impact of Covid and lockdown? Unable to prepare for new trading conditions in 2021 because nobody's told you what they are going to be yet? Concerned because the required infrastructure is not yet in place at the borders ? Of course, as the Government said the the other week, it's your fault for not preparing, deal or not: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54829094Thankfully where I work can take comfort from the fact that we don't export to the EU but have high value exports to Asia. Unfortunately if we don't get certain materials in time from the EU we can't make anything to export. Your post is very concerning and I wish you luck with supplies. Britain has always been a major world trading nation. The Romans came 2000 years ago and mined our tin, gold, lead, and other minerals. Wool was a major export in the middle ages. Down the ages we have always been a major exporter, and we have always had the talent and wit to move onto the next thing to be successful traders. It is a tragedy that since joining the EEC we have let the country drift into a situation where we are still one of the world's major exporters but have become so dependant on the EU protectionist market for many goods. It is vital for future generations that we break out of this situation. We are also getting far too dependant on China. We need to reduce and spread our dependency. Regrettably though we have political leaders who are solely interested in manoeuvring for power and have little interest in a successful economy, which is essential to fund high quality social services.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 6, 2020 10:06:36 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 6, 2020 10:30:31 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 6, 2020 11:18:36 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 6, 2020 12:01:48 GMT
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Post by elystokie on Nov 6, 2020 13:08:25 GMT
No wonder Cummings didn't need to fear being sacked when he broke his own rules. Wonder if he'll bother with them this time. No reason he should really.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 7, 2020 0:13:46 GMT
No wonder Cummings didn't need to fear being sacked when he broke his own rules. Wonder if he'll bother with them this time. No reason he should really. I wouldn’t both much with anything that contributor posts - his head is so far up his own are’s he can just about see his tonsils. From the BBC a week or so ago... Cambridge Analytica 'not involved' in Brexit referendum, says watchdog
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 7, 2020 0:29:42 GMT
I have read the article with interest and note the following points. 1. The article/letter was written and published in 2016 two weeks prior to the referendum and in my opinion clearly slanted towards persuading people to vote to stay in the EU. The GDP per capita is chosen as the means of comparison of performance, rather than GDP, and averaged over four decades at 2.1% growth. I suspect GDP per capita is used to avoid comparison with many of the other major economies that have grown considerably faster such as China, India, and South Korea which are all in the top ten economies. If comparison with those countries had been included, it would have made the chosen one's performance look pretty poor. The average of 2.1% GDP per capita growth is very typical of numerous countries throughout the world, so I conclude it does not make a lot of difference whether the UK was inside or outside of the EU in the last 4 decades. Looking at the graph, I would be worried if I was a Frenchman and on investigation I found Italy's decline in growth since 2000 is similar. The article compares the growth of 2.1% since joining the EU with the late Victorian and Edwardian age, which is a quite ridiculous and desperate argument. 2. The article states that UK growth has been more fairly distributed that in the USA. Are we to believe that is because we were in the EU? They used to say "tell it to the marines", but I would say tell that to the former steel workers, miners, and 100,000s of other people who used to be engaged in industry. The USA industry has been decimated like British industry. I lived through the destruction of the British steel industry, while Austria, Belgium Spain, Sweden, Spain, and The Netherlands have actually increased their steel making capacity. In Spain's case by EU regional aid paid for by the UK! 3. The article correctly states that the UK economy has become more dependant on trade and argues that because 45% of that trade is with the EU we should remain in the EU. What it fails to mention is that there has been a massive change in the British economy since joining Europe. Manufacturing has been decimated in the last four decades and we have become a service economy. Since 2012 most trade is with the rest of the world, mostly under WTO rules. That will inevitably grow as the rest of the world economies are forecast to grow faster then the EU. As I pointed out the other day, since the 90s, the growth in UK exports has comprised of roughly 1% with the EU and nearly 3% with the rest of the world, (average c.2%), hence the Johnson comment that the " EU is the graveyard of low growth" 4. The article speculates that the EU might impose high tariffs or punitive measures. Well I can believe the latter, but why should Germany favour setting up tariffs, when it enjoys a massive positive trade balance with the UK, of half a billion £ per week? No Brexiteers have said " just trade with Canada and Australia". The UK is trading with over 100 non EU countries, some of which out number the EU countries in the world's top 20 economies. London is one of the major finance centres of the world; a world where over 90% of growth will be in the future. There seems to be a premise by pro EU membership persons that the EU is going to stop buying from the UK. 5. The comparison graph with the USA refers to disposable income. A modern definition of "middle class" has been "those who have disposable income" as opposed to those who struggle to make ends meet. The UK is now a service economy and produces high added value products like pharmaceuticals and expensive engineering. The main potential growth is the finance sector as the "middle class" is expected to boom in Asia and the Far East as those economies grow. In China alone, the "middle class" is expected to increase annually by more than the total "middle class" of the whole of Europe. The demographics are staggering. That is where the UK future lies through cyberspace, high value products, entertainment, tourism, etc. There will be no future in making cars; people will buy a car "for life", and other countries will be producing them a lot cheaper than we will be able to in the future. 6. Finally, I know it doesn't bother Europhiles, but the article repeats the lie that the UK joined the EU in the 1970s. We joined the EEC. The EU was created under the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 when we made a huge step in giving away sovereignty of the UK without any consultation of the British people. We vote for politicians to rule us not to give away government to a bureaucracy in Brussels.
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Post by elystokie on Nov 7, 2020 8:00:59 GMT
No wonder Cummings didn't need to fear being sacked when he broke his own rules. Wonder if he'll bother with them this time. No reason he should really. I wouldn’t both much with anything that contributor posts - his head is so far up his own are’s he can just about see his tonsils. From the BBC a week or so ago... Cambridge Analytica 'not involved' in Brexit referendum, says watchdogI'll keep reading what he puts, thanks all the same.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 7, 2020 8:02:27 GMT
What that article shows, Coke, is that the UK has done very nicely economically during its membership of the EU.
Now, no-one is saying that that relative success is entirely due to that membership. No doubt our own economic policies have played their own part, although that in itself is nothing if not ironic, since, at the very least, it rather undermines the sovereignty argument about endless interference in our own law-making processes and inability to run our own domestic affairs! It also calls into question your own, much quoted, insistence that, in your own business experience, it's only the UK that has ever abided by the EU's directives and that other countries simply ignore them (not backed up by infringement stats incidentally) - if so, perhaps they should've paid more heed to them!
As far as the economy is concerned at least, membership (with all the endless interference!) doesn't appear to have had a negative impact, quite possibly the opposite!
At least now we'll be able to compare similar data once we're fully out of the EU and see how things have changed.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 7, 2020 9:51:27 GMT
What that article shows, Coke, is that the UK has done very nicely economically during its membership of the EU.
Now, no-one is saying that that relative success is entirely due to that membership. No doubt our own economic policies have played their own part, although that in itself is nothing if not ironic, since, at the very least, it rather undermines the sovereignty argument about endless interference in our own law-making processes and inability to run our own domestic affairs! It also calls into question your own, much quoted, insistence that, in your own business experience, it's only the UK that has ever abided by the EU's directives and that other countries simply ignore them (not backed up by infringement stats incidentally) - if so, perhaps they should've paid more heed to them! As far as the economy is concerned at least, membership (with all the endless interference!) doesn't appear to have had a negative impact, quite possibly the opposite! At least now we'll be able to compare similar data once we're fully out of the EU and see how things have changed. That statement is perfectly true. Where we differ is, you believe the UK has done very nicely because of UK membership, whereas I believe the UK has done very nicely despite EU membership. As regards UK economic performance once we're fully out of the EU, I fully expect a downturn in the short term whilst UK adjusts to the change in circumstances. The economic effects of the pandemic could totally obscure those of leaving the UK. Personally I believe the Eurozone is heading into very difficult times. Things have not got better since this article was written: blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2020/04/22/italys-endgame-and-the-future-of-the-eurozone/
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Post by thevoid on Nov 7, 2020 11:55:18 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2020 12:04:31 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Nov 7, 2020 12:26:11 GMT
Nope. I think I'll take the BBC- hardly known as a bastion of pro-Brexit coverage- over some crackpot fake news page with an agenda and less followers than The Dog & Duck FC 😂
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2020 13:01:58 GMT
Nope. I think I'll take the BBC- hardly known as a bastion of pro-Brexit coverage- over some crackpot fake news page with an agenda and less followers than The Dog & Duck FC 😂 Still wrong.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2020 13:43:02 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Nov 7, 2020 13:47:57 GMT
Nope. I think I'll take the BBC- hardly known as a bastion of pro-Brexit coverage- over some crackpot fake news page with an agenda and less followers than The Dog & Duck FC 😂 Still wrong. I really aren't.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2020 13:50:05 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Nov 7, 2020 14:01:15 GMT
Grow up and stop posting fake news that has been debunked numerous times. I'll allow you the last word if you reply back, as I'm watching the match. It's about time admin cracked down on people posting links to fake news (and yes, I apply that to both left and right wing sources). Your constant stream of misinformation from your 'confirmation bias' sources is ruining threads.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2020 14:09:55 GMT
Grow up and stop posting fake news that has been debunked numerous times. I'll allow you the last word if you reply back, as I'm watching the match. It's about time admin cracked down on people posting links to fake news (and yes, I apply that to both left and right wing sources). Your constant stream of misinformation from your 'confirmation bias' sources is ruining threads. You're still wrong.
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 7, 2020 14:31:09 GMT
Like a kids play ground. Grow up.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 7, 2020 14:42:09 GMT
Grow up and stop posting fake news that has been debunked numerous times. I'll allow you the last word if you reply back, as I'm watching the match. It's about time admin cracked down on people posting links to fake news (and yes, I apply that to both left and right wing sources). Your constant stream of misinformation from your 'confirmation bias' sources is ruining threads.
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