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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 3, 2020 18:54:51 GMT
Yes Numpty I think, in this era in history, we have naturally reverted to the concept and actuality of the nation state.
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 5, 2020 10:43:10 GMT
Interesting article from the Spectator: Could coronavirus lead to Frexit?Coronavirus means trade negotiations will take place against a very different backdrop to the withdrawal agreement. What that means, will be interesting to see.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 5, 2020 11:03:22 GMT
Interesting article from the Spectator: Could coronavirus lead to Frexit?Coronavirus means trade negotiations will take place against a very different backdrop to the withdrawal agreement. What that means, will be interesting to see. The article places much emphasis on the Euro. For me this is really the main binding obstacle that kept Greece in and inhibits France and Italy. It is a failing project when countries have to talk about " escape" and " freedom". " taking back control".....it should not be like that, democracy should devolve to the lowest level POSSIBLE. The project as always stressed the importance of Political AND economic union....control the currency and you control the policy and country. The two go hand in hand( see the Five Presidents' report) Verhofstadt would like greater direct taxation and the EUs own budget.....rather than their being contributions. For me , as much as we might see pressure for formal exits ( Hungary would be expelled now if the EU were not afraid of ticking the boat), I think we will see increasing skirmishes in which " member states" deviate from policies and challenge the managers ( deliberate word in the bureaucracy)..." what are you going to do about it"
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Post by felonious on Apr 5, 2020 11:44:13 GMT
Interesting article from the Spectator: Could coronavirus lead to Frexit?Coronavirus means trade negotiations will take place against a very different backdrop to the withdrawal agreement. What that means, will be interesting to see. The article places much emphasis on the Euro. For me this is really the main binding obstacle that kept Greece in and inhibits France and Italy. It is a failing project when countries have to talk about " escape" and " freedom". " taking back control".....it should not be like that, democracy should devolve to the lowest level POSSIBLE. The project as always stressed the importance of Political AND economic union....control the currency and you control the policy and country. The two go hand in hand( see the Five Presidents' report) Verhofstadt would like greater direct taxation and the EUs own budget.....rather than their being contributions. For me , as much as we might see pressure for formal exits ( Hungary would be expelled now if the EU were not afraid of ticking the boat), I think we will see increasing skirmishes in which " member states" deviate from policies and challenge the managers ( deliberate word in the bureaucracy)..." what are you going to do about it" I find it bizarre that when member states are in crisis and closing borders due to Coronavirus the bureaucrats concern themselves over Schengen. Italy needed to get control over it's budget before this crisis but now it's an absolute necessity.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 8, 2020 7:05:01 GMT
The EU proving absolutely useless during a crisis. “I arrived at the ERC a fervent supporter of the EU [but] the Covid-19 crisis completely changed my views"
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 8, 2020 8:39:08 GMT
Interesting article from the Spectator: Could coronavirus lead to Frexit?Coronavirus means trade negotiations will take place against a very different backdrop to the withdrawal agreement. What that means, will be interesting to see. The article places much emphasis on the Euro. For me this is really the main binding obstacle that kept Greece in and inhibits France and Italy. It is a failing project when countries have to talk about " escape" and " freedom". " taking back control".....it should not be like that, democracy should devolve to the lowest level POSSIBLE. The project as always stressed the importance of Political AND economic union....control the currency and you control the policy and country. The two go hand in hand( see the Five Presidents' report) Verhofstadt would like greater direct taxation and the EUs own budget.....rather than their being contributions. For me , as much as we might see pressure for formal exits ( Hungary would be expelled now if the EU were not afraid of ticking the boat), I think we will see increasing skirmishes in which " member states" deviate from policies and challenge the managers ( deliberate word in the bureaucracy)..." what are you going to do about it" That's all very true john , primarily as you say democracy doesn't devolve to the lowest levels , for the vast majority of members and their populations they have no control of their own institutions, democratic, financial, legal . More civil unrest is inevitable
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 8, 2020 10:10:21 GMT
The article places much emphasis on the Euro. For me this is really the main binding obstacle that kept Greece in and inhibits France and Italy. It is a failing project when countries have to talk about " escape" and " freedom". " taking back control".....it should not be like that, democracy should devolve to the lowest level POSSIBLE. The project as always stressed the importance of Political AND economic union....control the currency and you control the policy and country. The two go hand in hand( see the Five Presidents' report) Verhofstadt would like greater direct taxation and the EUs own budget.....rather than their being contributions. For me , as much as we might see pressure for formal exits ( Hungary would be expelled now if the EU were not afraid of ticking the boat), I think we will see increasing skirmishes in which " member states" deviate from policies and challenge the managers ( deliberate word in the bureaucracy)..." what are you going to do about it" That's all very true john , primarily as you say democracy doesn't devolve to the lowest levels , for the vast majority of members and their populations they have no control of their own institutions, democratic, financial, legal . More civil unrest is inevitable I think that where we have got to be careful in this changing world is that we don't scrutinise ( and even take away) the power that we have given to these benevolent and righteous sonding organisations....I'm thinking about the UN, WHO, IMF etc..just because they " sound " right doesn't mean that they make decisions in a neutral way..but we tend to be reverent to them , just because of who they are....PLUS many multinationals are now more powerful and influential than some countries. (Benn in the clip below puts it much better than me of course from 7.30 onwards.....I believe that what he says in the video is now even clearer as we have had the fight to leave and the EU ' response' to the Coronavirus).
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Post by Clayton Wood on Apr 8, 2020 11:45:02 GMT
Don't mention the war!Too late: This week, a group of Italian mayors and other politicians bought a page in Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper to remind Germany that it was never made to pay back its debts after World War Two.There may be trouble ahead....
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 8, 2020 11:46:32 GMT
That's all very true john , primarily as you say democracy doesn't devolve to the lowest levels , for the vast majority of members and their populations they have no control of their own institutions, democratic, financial, legal . More civil unrest is inevitable I think that where we have got to be careful in this changing world is that we don't scrutinise ( and even take away) the power that we have given to these benevolent and righteous sonding organisations....I'm thinking about the UN, WHO, IMF etc..just because they " sound " right doesn't mean that they make decisions in a neutral way..but we tend to be reverent to them , just because of who they are....PLUS many multinationals are now more powerful and influential than some countries. (Benn in the clip below puts it much better than me of course from 7.30 onwards.....I believe that what he says in the video is now even clearer as we have had the fight to leave and the EU ' response' to the Coronavirus). I'm sure the president of Volkswagen has more power in the EU than the Italian prime minister
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Post by Clayton Wood on Apr 8, 2020 14:50:28 GMT
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Post by xchpotter on Apr 8, 2020 16:40:36 GMT
Inevitable questions coming in the press conference asking if it’s use to now leave the EU at the end of the year. Who’d have thought.
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Post by wagsastokie on Apr 8, 2020 17:35:06 GMT
Inevitable questions coming in the press conference asking if it’s use to now leave the EU at the end of the year. Who’d have thought. And as sunak pointed out we have already left
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 9, 2020 8:21:54 GMT
"Don't waste this time" - Donald Tusk. "The clock is ticking" - Michael Barnier. The EU:
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Post by Clayton Wood on Apr 9, 2020 8:59:17 GMT
"Don't waste this time" - Donald Tusk. "The clock is ticking" - Michael Barnier. The EU: I wonder how much of this they'll try and lump in our basket at the checkout?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 19:13:57 GMT
Just watching the Brexit: Uncivil War film on Netflix, about Cummings and Cambridge Analytica.
Really interesting actually! Doesn't take sides which I like, and does a lot to expose what the remain side didn't pick up on with regard to voters in deprived areas. The scene where the focus group woman says 'well you tell me how it can get any worse for me, where I'm from' is fantastic.
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Post by wagsastokie on Apr 14, 2020 6:48:52 GMT
Just watching the Brexit: Uncivil War film on Netflix, about Cummings and Cambridge Analytica. Really interesting actually! Doesn't take sides which I like, and does a lot to expose what the remain side didn't pick up on with regard to voters in deprived areas. The scene where the focus group woman says 'well you tell me how it can get any worse for me, where I'm from' is fantastic. People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse
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Post by thisisouryear on Apr 14, 2020 6:56:41 GMT
Just watching the Brexit: Uncivil War film on Netflix, about Cummings and Cambridge Analytica. Really interesting actually! Doesn't take sides which I like, and does a lot to expose what the remain side didn't pick up on with regard to voters in deprived areas. The scene where the focus group woman says 'well you tell me how it can get any worse for me, where I'm from' is fantastic. People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse There could be a huge weight on the shoulders of France and Germany now and I would be surprised if they will be able to hold the EU together in its current form. Some of the countries were already financially in the shit and once things begin to settle the internal issues it is likely to face in the aftermath could pull it apart.
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Post by wagsastokie on Apr 14, 2020 7:00:57 GMT
People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse There could be a huge weight on the shoulders of France and Germany now and I would be surprised if they will be able to hold the EU together in its current form. Some of the countries were already financially in the shit and once things begin to settle the internal issues it is likely to face in the aftermath could pull it apart. It could well end up less federal and the ties a lot looser Something that would have advantages to being a member of
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 14, 2020 7:11:03 GMT
There could be a huge weight on the shoulders of France and Germany now and I would be surprised if they will be able to hold the EU together in its current form. Some of the countries were already financially in the shit and once things begin to settle the internal issues it is likely to face in the aftermath could pull it apart. It could well end up less federal and the ties a lot looser Something that would have advantages to being a member of Indeed. The sort of thing Cameron was hoping to offer to the British people before he was sent back to the UK with his tail between his legs. I suspect not though. Once the heat dies down, the folk in Brussels will begin making the argument that the EU was hampered in its approach because there wasn’t sufficient alignment among member states and that only a more integrated EU could have addressed the challenge. National states reverted to nationalistic approaches that proved to be disastrous for individual national states. Therefore the fast forward button needs pressing, not the reverse.
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Post by followyoudown on Apr 14, 2020 7:11:17 GMT
People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse There could be a huge weight on the shoulders of France and Germany now and I would be surprised if they will be able to hold the EU together in its current form. Some of the countries were already financially in the shit and once things begin to settle the internal issues it is likely to face in the aftermath could pull it apart. Yep the italian banks were already in serious trouble wont take much for them to go and start a domino effect.
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Post by thisisouryear on Apr 14, 2020 7:12:50 GMT
There could be a huge weight on the shoulders of France and Germany now and I would be surprised if they will be able to hold the EU together in its current form. Some of the countries were already financially in the shit and once things begin to settle the internal issues it is likely to face in the aftermath could pull it apart. It could well end up less federal and the ties a lot looser Something that would have advantages to being a member of Boris still might get cake it he pushes for it. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out now, but there may certainly be a shift in attitude which may benefit us greatly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 13:30:11 GMT
Just watching the Brexit: Uncivil War film on Netflix, about Cummings and Cambridge Analytica. Really interesting actually! Doesn't take sides which I like, and does a lot to expose what the remain side didn't pick up on with regard to voters in deprived areas. The scene where the focus group woman says 'well you tell me how it can get any worse for me, where I'm from' is fantastic. People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse Yep, the remain campaign had a big shock when they realised people wanted a change, not the status quo. I do wish that change had come in another form, but something was always going to happen after 40 years of neglect from both parties.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 14, 2020 14:01:26 GMT
There could be a huge weight on the shoulders of France and Germany now and I would be surprised if they will be able to hold the EU together in its current form. Some of the countries were already financially in the shit and once things begin to settle the internal issues it is likely to face in the aftermath could pull it apart. Yep the italian banks were already in serious trouble wont take much for them to go and start a domino effect. The Greek economy is fcuked the Spanish will collapse as will the Italians this pandemic will be the end of the EU as it is now, the non contributors will sink it finally.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 14, 2020 14:13:53 GMT
People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse Yep, the remain campaign had a big shock when they realised people wanted a change, not the status quo. I do wish that change had come in another form, but something was always going to happen after 40 years of neglect from both parties. The remain campaign totally misread the feelings of the majority of the electorate, they were and some still are completely out of touch with how ordinary people see the situation in the UK hence the clamour for change.
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Post by thisisouryear on Apr 14, 2020 14:22:18 GMT
Yep, the remain campaign had a big shock when they realised people wanted a change, not the status quo. I do wish that change had come in another form, but something was always going to happen after 40 years of neglect from both parties. The remain campaign totally misread the feelings of the majority of the electorate, they were and some still are completely out of touch with how ordinary people see the situation in the UK hence the clamour for change. Depends what you class as ordinary people. I certainly wouldn't class you as an ordinary person, there seems to be a nastiness about your nature which ain't that normal and your obsession with China seems a bit fucked up.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 14, 2020 14:33:54 GMT
The remain campaign totally misread the feelings of the majority of the electorate, they were and some still are completely out of touch with how ordinary people see the situation in the UK hence the clamour for change. Depends what you class as ordinary people. I certainly wouldn't class you as an ordinary person, there seems to be a nastiness about your nature which ain't that normal and your obsession with China seems a bit fucked up. Says more about you than me how can you judge or asess someone you have never met the fact is over 7 million ordinary people felt the same way about the EU , as for China well we will see when the truth comes out will we not, I think you will find they are the guilty party and totally fucked up.
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Post by banksofengland on Apr 14, 2020 16:27:44 GMT
As soon as this started the first thing that happened was that every country went it's own way the EU was nowhere to be seen.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 14, 2020 16:51:38 GMT
People keep saying that people voted leave for bigoted or for xenophobia or were just plain thick I'm sure there were a few But vast ammouts of people voted leave simply for hope In there eyes Forty odd years of eu membership had given them the square root of sod all Things couldn't get worse Yep, the remain campaign had a big shock when they realised people wanted a change, not the status quo. I do wish that change had come in another form, but something was always going to happen after 40 years of neglect from both parties. Both parties didn't neglect the EU , they colluded with the EU and disgracefully deceived the population, which is why it took a movement, led by Farage and UKIP, outside of the traditional political class to effect democracy and change. It could never be claimed that the EU had the overt support of the electorate, UK Eurosceptic parties formed the largest representation in the pseudo parliament which undermines any argument that it was ever the direction in which people wanted to travel. They chose independence, self determination and national identity
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Post by thisisouryear on Apr 14, 2020 17:01:21 GMT
Depends what you class as ordinary people. I certainly wouldn't class you as an ordinary person, there seems to be a nastiness about your nature which ain't that normal and your obsession with China seems a bit fucked up. Says more about you than me how can you judge or asess someone you have never met the fact is over 7 million ordinary people felt the same way about the EU , as for China well we will see when the truth comes out will we not, I think you will find they are the guilty party and totally fucked up. What can I say I have great awareness. I also voted to leave the EU
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 14, 2020 19:39:25 GMT
Says more about you than me how can you judge or asess someone you have never met the fact is over 7 million ordinary people felt the same way about the EU , as for China well we will see when the truth comes out will we not, I think you will find they are the guilty party and totally fucked up. What can I say I have great awareness. I also voted to leave the EU Great awareness still think this "virus" is not man made ?
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