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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 17, 2019 14:30:34 GMT
And because they don't trust Corbyn and Labour. Who brought zero hour contracts in, and why have they been allowed in the EU? It's up to each country as to what they implement, and many don't allow it. It's also known as.... Control. You know, that thing we want back? Oh, we had it already. fullfact.org/law/zero-hours-contracts-uk-europe/It's not up to each country to follow the agricultural policy, the industrial policy, the common fisheries policy etc. As we move towards Political and Economic union.. this will include financial policy ( already does in the Eurozone), foreign policy ( Verhofstadt already talks about Ukraine, Russia , America etc on behalf of the EU). We have to implement the directives and regulations... have a look at TFEU 258 and 260. Political and economic union in a German and French led EU , administered from the bureaucratic centre.
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 17, 2019 17:08:34 GMT
It's not up to each country to follow the agricultural policy, the industrial policy, the common fisheries policy etc. As we move towards Political and Economic union.. this will include financial policy ( already does in the Eurozone), foreign policy ( Verhofstadt already talks about Ukraine, Russia , America etc on behalf of the EU). We have to implement the directives and regulations... have a look at TFEU 258 and 260. Political and economic union in a German and French led EU , administered from the bureaucratic centre. What is even worse in my experience is that the UK slavishly enforces EU directives through regulations, employing a "clip-board mentality", whilst other European countries just ignore regulations, or find ways to circumvent them. We also vigorously enforce health and safety regulations such as guarding and electrical regs. to a far higher standard. When Angela Merkal talks of maintaining fair competition when the UK leaves, it makes me laugh. German industry operates cartels ensuring companies buy and supply each other to keep out foreign competition. I believe Germany was the main driving force to introduce the Euro, because the mark was getting so highly valued it was damaging German industry. Protectionism is still in place with the Coal & Steel community regulations forcing higher VAT rating of green technology. www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/hmrc-pushes-massive-vat-increase-for-new-solar-battery-systems
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 17, 2019 17:27:38 GMT
It's not up to each country to follow the agricultural policy, the industrial policy, the common fisheries policy etc. As we move towards Political and Economic union.. this will include financial policy ( already does in the Eurozone), foreign policy ( Verhofstadt already talks about Ukraine, Russia , America etc on behalf of the EU). We have to implement the directives and regulations... have a look at TFEU 258 and 260. Political and economic union in a German and French led EU , administered from the bureaucratic centre. What is even worse in my experience is that the UK slavishly enforces EU directives through regulations, employing a "clip-board mentality", whilst other European countries just ignore regulations, or find ways to circumvent them. We also vigorously enforce health and safety regulations such as guarding and electrical regs. to a far higher standard. When Angela Merkal talks of maintaining fair competition when the UK leaves, it makes me laugh. German industry operates cartels ensuring companies buy and supply each other to keep out foreign competition. I believe Germany was the main driving force to introduce the Euro, because the mark was getting so highly valued it was damaging German industry. Protectionism is still in place with the Coal & Steel community regulations forcing higher VAT rating of green technology. www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/hmrc-pushes-massive-vat-increase-for-new-solar-battery-systemsI'm convinced that the port of Naples has its own alternative economy. When rules, particularly when appertaining to money are imposed from a distance people/ organisations do tend to devise ways to circumvent them. Talk about the UK hidden economy would itself be opening up a can of worms, tax avoidance/ evasion/ vat fraud/who pays for the NHS/ etc are all difficult issues to regulate. I honestly think that we have never been fully committed to the project for whatever reasons and historically I think a truly trusting relationship with France has been difficult to believe.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 17, 2019 17:41:33 GMT
A proper Brexit is back on the table. Seems like Sir Nigel is on board at the moment /
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 17, 2019 17:47:12 GMT
What is even worse in my experience is that the UK slavishly enforces EU directives through regulations, employing a "clip-board mentality", whilst other European countries just ignore regulations, or find ways to circumvent them. We also vigorously enforce health and safety regulations such as guarding and electrical regs. to a far higher standard. When Angela Merkal talks of maintaining fair competition when the UK leaves, it makes me laugh. German industry operates cartels ensuring companies buy and supply each other to keep out foreign competition. I believe Germany was the main driving force to introduce the Euro, because the mark was getting so highly valued it was damaging German industry. Protectionism is still in place with the Coal & Steel community regulations forcing higher VAT rating of green technology. www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/hmrc-pushes-massive-vat-increase-for-new-solar-battery-systemsI'm convinced that the port of Naples has its own alternative economy. When rules, particularly when appertaining to money are imposed from a distance people/ organisations do tend to devise ways to circumvent them. Talk about the UK hidden economy would itself be opening up a can of worms, tax avoidance/ evasion/ vat fraud/who pays for the NHS/ etc are all difficult issues to regulate. I honestly think that we have never been fully committed to the project for whatever reasons and historically I think a truly trusting relationship with France has been difficult to believe. As I have repeatedly stated I worked for a French company for 7 years and had a functional boss in Paris. I could relate stories on here and nauseam but doubt people would believe me. For example, I once explained that we had to reduce production because of the risk of exceeding chimney emissions. My French boss said "Can't you arrange for the emission monitoring to break down?"
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 17, 2019 17:59:15 GMT
It's not up to each country to follow the agricultural policy, the industrial policy, the common fisheries policy etc. As we move towards Political and Economic union.. this will include financial policy ( already does in the Eurozone), foreign policy ( Verhofstadt already talks about Ukraine, Russia , America etc on behalf of the EU). We have to implement the directives and regulations... have a look at TFEU 258 and 260. Political and economic union in a German and French led EU , administered from the bureaucratic centre. What is even worse in my experience is that the UK slavishly enforces EU directives through regulations, employing a "clip-board mentality", whilst other European countries just ignore regulations, or find ways to circumvent them. We also vigorously enforce health and safety regulations such as guarding and electrical regs. to a far higher standard. When Angela Merkal talks of maintaining fair competition when the UK leaves, it makes me laugh. German industry operates cartels ensuring companies buy and supply each other to keep out foreign competition. I believe Germany was the main driving force to introduce the Euro, because the mark was getting so highly valued it was damaging German industry. Protectionism is still in place with the Coal & Steel community regulations forcing higher VAT rating of green technology. www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/24/hmrc-pushes-massive-vat-increase-for-new-solar-battery-systemsThey absolutely do as does France and many others as for Germany they like cash way more than "card" and many places dont do card payments!! ask yourself why.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 17, 2019 18:05:32 GMT
Looks like we are starting Cabinet sessions in prayer / Some of course will say that we need it!
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 17, 2019 18:33:17 GMT
Looks like we are starting Cabinet sessions in prayer / Some of course will say that we need it! Better, possibly, than us not having a prayer.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:00:19 GMT
I was in court last week obtaining an injunction against a husband for a victim of marital rape and I will be working on the divorce and finances in due course. Is this making money from misery in the way you describe it? Or do you think that victim should be left in the abusive relationship with no representation and way out? What about when I recover children who have been abducted and taken abroad? The legal aid cuts and cuts to court funding have devastated the system and made justice much harder to achieve. And while you are doing that I was in uniform at the frontline of criminal justice obtaining the evidence you take credit for 😘 So you know that your job is utterly, utterly pointless without lawyers to carry it through. I do no criminal work though. Assuming you are in the police, your organisation almost ruined this case as they breached court orders in refusing to give disclosure on time and refused to process the charges and do anything until my work was done as they were too scared of getting it wrong. Luckily my client was brave and persisted without the help she should have had from the police and we succeeded.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:01:56 GMT
The winning party in my constituency. If we had a democratic system they would have 90 odd seats and possibly more as many don’t vote for them as the system is rigged against small parties. The lib dems increased their share of the vote by far more than any other party So again nowhere near forming a Govt. The '11 AV ref was thrown out 68/32% so irrelevant argument to rely on a system that has been comprehensively rejected. LibDems fielded 611 candidates to achieve 11 MP's (down 1). With millions of Remainers waiting in the wings to punish thick old racist bastards why didn't they flock to the party of Remain? Don't tell me they believed Corbyn's party of Remain as Brexit's his excuse (along with the media, the weather, the time of the year etc) for losing. LibDems had one punt at selling Remain and nobody was interested. They didn’t flock to the lib dems because a forst past the post system is about voting against who you don’t want more than for who you do want.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 8:05:36 GMT
So again nowhere near forming a Govt. The '11 AV ref was thrown out 68/32% so irrelevant argument to rely on a system that has been comprehensively rejected. LibDems fielded 611 candidates to achieve 11 MP's (down 1). With millions of Remainers waiting in the wings to punish thick old racist bastards why didn't they flock to the party of Remain? Don't tell me they believed Corbyn's party of Remain as Brexit's his excuse (along with the media, the weather, the time of the year etc) for losing. LibDems had one punt at selling Remain and nobody was interested. They didn’t flock to the lib dems because a forst past the post system is about voting against who you don’t want more than for who you do want. So they didn’t want labour then?
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:09:19 GMT
Actually the vast majority of my firm and other lawyers I know are labour/lib dem voters. The vast majority are remainers, partly perhaps because they understand some legal issues relevant to brexit that (for very good reason) non-lawyers wouldn’t know about. I say this not in a condescending way. It is the same way a teacher knows more about the national curriculum, for example, than the majority of non-teachers, or a doctor knows more about the nhs than non-doctors. The minority of lawyers at my firm and with whom I have contact with are tory voters. I am not twisted. I am bitter at the fact that in this country democracy means repeating a lie over and over again and that is enough to dupe people into voting for it. It’s sad, and a reasonable reason to be bitter at this moment in time. The saddest thing of all is that I don’t think the primary reason many people who voted Tory was because they liked them the best. They seem to be mostly voting against labour. What a sorry state our democracy is in when the majority of votes are wasted as we do not have a democratic electoral system. Me and Farage are one and the same on that point. I am not sure exactly what you mean by justice metered out to labour. We have not had a labour government for almost a decade and since the last labour government we as a nation have steadily gone downhill on many things. Austerity and a failure to redistribute wealth fairly are the problems. Thank you for your considered response. I agree with your premise that lawyers know more about the legal issues etc. Everyone comes to their own view of issues from judgements made on information and experience. In my own case I served on a European industrial committee for many years and chaired it for three years. There are many aspects to European union, legal just being one. Others include finance, research and development, trade, security, etc. but in my opinion democracy is the most important. When I was young it was not so important to me and I was more concerned with economics and peace, but as I have grown older and witnessed the ways of the world I have changed my views to having greater concern for freedom and self rule. Most of the other issues can be addressed in a relative short time span, but history teaches us that freedom can take centuries to achieve and if lost be extremely difficult to recover without violence. Just look at Russia or China ( eg Hong Kong). I do not want this country to be part of a united states of Europe, which is the clear objective of those that are in charge of the EU. There is no ideal democracy, it does not exist. Some propose proportional representation, but that just means you get government that no one wanted. In fact in can lead to an extreme minority having undue influence such as the DUP recently, or what the SNP were seeking to achieve with Labour. Your statement that the people have been duped is contemptable. The general public are intuitively wise and know when they are being conned. I notice that many of the losers in this election are blaming the media. Well there is certainly a right wing press, but I think it is in a minority, surely more people are exposed the left wing bias of the BBC and Channel 4. I know people who hate the Daily Mail who have voted Tory in this election, because this election has been about leaving the EU and stopping Corbyn getting into power. That is the justice metered out to Labour who supposedly sat on the fence on Brexit, but were actually bending to the loony left instead of the working class, and proposing the economics of the mad house with policies like nationalisation. When you get into debt, you have to reduce your spending. The world fell into an economic crisis in 2008, which the Blair government earlier in the decade were partly responsible for by relaxing control of the finance industry. The Lib Dems have suffered for supporting austerity during the coalition years, but they knew it was an economic necessity as does any sensible person knows when expenditure exceeds income. The Labour party were the liars pretending austerity was not necessary. Hopefully that period in our history is past and the new government can relax the spending control. Maybe I am wrong in putting sovereignty the highest priority. I know there are "greens" who consider saving the planet more important. But IMO the future of the planet is in the hands of China, USA, India, and Russia who are responsible for most of the pollution. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, but 17th on CO2 emissions and a lot lower in the rankings on emissions per head of population. So I consider it an aspect we have little influence on. Where we differ is about democracy. There are more elected law makers in the EU than in our system (percentage wise we have the unelected Lords, the EU has just 28 unelected law makers in comparison). It is more democratic. And in my opinion in this world it is better to be the 2nd biggest influence in one of the biggest blocs in the world, rather than little UK (while we still are the UK) by ourselves. We have lost influence in the world because of brexit and that will worsen when it happens. We therefore cannot influence global issues so much and have to follow what others with more influence say. We have to follow now, not lead. We are therefore less sovereign as a great deal of what we do is dictated by international agreements and reciprocity.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:10:16 GMT
They didn’t flock to the lib dems because a forst past the post system is about voting against who you don’t want more than for who you do want. So they didn’t want labour then? Yes, Johnson is generally disliked. Corbyn is hated. The rest are irrelevant
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Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 8:13:35 GMT
So they didn’t want labour then? Yes, Johnson is generally disliked. Corbyn is hated. The rest are irrelevant All the news reports with normal people say they like Boris.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:14:26 GMT
I was in court last week obtaining an injunction against a husband for a victim of marital rape and I will be working on the divorce and finances in due course. Is this making money from misery in the way you describe it? Or do you think that victim should be left in the abusive relationship with no representation and way out? What about when I recover children who have been abducted and taken abroad? The legal aid cuts and cuts to court funding have devastated the system and made justice much harder to achieve. Well said and you are not wrong, but a lot of us are not impressed. I sat in court a few weeks ago listening to a barrister defending a rapist and a GHI with intent who were duly convicted. The barrister was obviously being paid (a lot of money?) via legal aid and doing her job trying to persuade the jury to find the offenders not guilty. The jury found the offenders guilty and the judge sent them to jail. I believe justice was done. Please don't defend the legal profession as though they are all doing a noble job. Some are, as you, working for justice for victims, but there are lots earning a lucrative living defending the criminals in this country. I don’t do criminal law. But lawyers who do are badly paid unless they are very senior, particularly criminal barristers. Criminal barristers defend people accused of crime. Without criminal barristers you find nobody guilty of crime and we have no criminal justice system. They are absolutely critical otherwise how do you try someone for a crime? People have a right to be defended and if we don’t have that, we are no better than places like Iran who throw people in prison without a trial.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 18, 2019 8:14:50 GMT
Yes, Johnson is generally disliked. Corbyn is hated. The rest are irrelevant All the news reports with normal people say they like Boris. FanBoy🤣
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 8:15:31 GMT
Thank you for your considered response. I agree with your premise that lawyers know more about the legal issues etc. Everyone comes to their own view of issues from judgements made on information and experience. In my own case I served on a European industrial committee for many years and chaired it for three years. There are many aspects to European union, legal just being one. Others include finance, research and development, trade, security, etc. but in my opinion democracy is the most important. When I was young it was not so important to me and I was more concerned with economics and peace, but as I have grown older and witnessed the ways of the world I have changed my views to having greater concern for freedom and self rule. Most of the other issues can be addressed in a relative short time span, but history teaches us that freedom can take centuries to achieve and if lost be extremely difficult to recover without violence. Just look at Russia or China ( eg Hong Kong). I do not want this country to be part of a united states of Europe, which is the clear objective of those that are in charge of the EU. There is no ideal democracy, it does not exist. Some propose proportional representation, but that just means you get government that no one wanted. In fact in can lead to an extreme minority having undue influence such as the DUP recently, or what the SNP were seeking to achieve with Labour. Your statement that the people have been duped is contemptable. The general public are intuitively wise and know when they are being conned. I notice that many of the losers in this election are blaming the media. Well there is certainly a right wing press, but I think it is in a minority, surely more people are exposed the left wing bias of the BBC and Channel 4. I know people who hate the Daily Mail who have voted Tory in this election, because this election has been about leaving the EU and stopping Corbyn getting into power. That is the justice metered out to Labour who supposedly sat on the fence on Brexit, but were actually bending to the loony left instead of the working class, and proposing the economics of the mad house with policies like nationalisation. When you get into debt, you have to reduce your spending. The world fell into an economic crisis in 2008, which the Blair government earlier in the decade were partly responsible for by relaxing control of the finance industry. The Lib Dems have suffered for supporting austerity during the coalition years, but they knew it was an economic necessity as does any sensible person knows when expenditure exceeds income. The Labour party were the liars pretending austerity was not necessary. Hopefully that period in our history is past and the new government can relax the spending control. Maybe I am wrong in putting sovereignty the highest priority. I know there are "greens" who consider saving the planet more important. But IMO the future of the planet is in the hands of China, USA, India, and Russia who are responsible for most of the pollution. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, but 17th on CO2 emissions and a lot lower in the rankings on emissions per head of population. So I consider it an aspect we have little influence on. Where we differ is about democracy. There are more elected law makers in the EU than in our system (percentage wise we have the unelected Lords, the EU has just 28 unelected law makers in comparison). It is more democratic. And in my opinion in this world it is better to be the 2nd biggest influence in one of the biggest blocs in the world, rather than little UK (while we still are the UK) by ourselves. We have lost influence in the world because of brexit and that will worsen when it happens. We therefore cannot influence global issues so much and have to follow what others with more influence say. We have to follow now, not lead. We are therefore less sovereign as a great deal of what we do is dictated by international agreements and reciprocity. Oggy We've never been and never would have been the second biggest influencers in the EU... those places are reserved for Germany and France. Your arguments for democracy are ridiculous. The EU was designed not to be democratic but to implement the vision of a United States of Europe through ever closer Political and Economic union. We've had the debate before on this so I'm not going into it again..It would help democracy in this country if people accepted the results of democratic decisions , the biggest expression of which was the 2016 referendum result... which whether you like it or not was to leave the EU. The make up of the eurosceptic UK representatives in the EU Parliament suggests that whatever you or I think of the EU the British people don't want to be in it... we've never been enthusiastic members
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:16:13 GMT
Yes, Johnson is generally disliked. Corbyn is hated. The rest are irrelevant All the news reports with normal people say they like Boris. He has massive negative approval ratings which shows the majority dislike him. He got fewer than 50% of the votes too. His vote share was very slightly higher than May’s (1.2% I believe). He’s slightly more popular than May by that stat.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:20:26 GMT
Where we differ is about democracy. There are more elected law makers in the EU than in our system (percentage wise we have the unelected Lords, the EU has just 28 unelected law makers in comparison). It is more democratic. And in my opinion in this world it is better to be the 2nd biggest influence in one of the biggest blocs in the world, rather than little UK (while we still are the UK) by ourselves. We have lost influence in the world because of brexit and that will worsen when it happens. We therefore cannot influence global issues so much and have to follow what others with more influence say. We have to follow now, not lead. We are therefore less sovereign as a great deal of what we do is dictated by international agreements and reciprocity. Oggy We've never been and never would have been the second biggest influencers in the EU... those places are reserved for Germany and France. Your arguments for democracy are ridiculous. The EU was designed not to be democratic but to implement the vision of a United States of Europe through ever closer Political and Economic union. We've had the debate before on this so I'm not going into it again..It would help democracy in this country if people accepted the results of democratic decisions , the biggest expression of which was the 2016 referendum result... which whether you like it or not was to leave the EU Yes , we have repeatedly argued this point so I won’t respond. But I think the (undemocratic) referendum result is still unknown as we don’t yet know what the leave vote is for and Johnson seems hell bent on a no deal or a very, very limited trade deal as he is going to shut off his timeframe to negotiate anything more. Brexit is happening. I know that. I don’t have to be happy about it though as it has been disastrous so far and it hasn’t even happened yet. It has completely divided us and masks the real problem which has been 9 years of tory austerity.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 18, 2019 8:22:48 GMT
If TARIFF free EU trade between the uk is so benificial to the EU surely they just keep the existing free trade deal The EU need to stop the jealousy that the uk can strike their own deals elsewhere. They shouldn’t be adding tariffs on to us just to even out anything we gain on our own Barriers to trade will hurt us so much more than the EU
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 8:33:54 GMT
Oggy We've never been and never would have been the second biggest influencers in the EU... those places are reserved for Germany and France. Your arguments for democracy are ridiculous. The EU was designed not to be democratic but to implement the vision of a United States of Europe through ever closer Political and Economic union. We've had the debate before on this so I'm not going into it again..It would help democracy in this country if people accepted the results of democratic decisions , the biggest expression of which was the 2016 referendum result... which whether you like it or not was to leave the EU Yes , we have repeatedly argued this point so I won’t respond. But I think the (undemocratic) referendum result is still unknown as we don’t yet know what the leave vote is for and Johnson seems hell bent on a no deal or a very, very limited trade deal as he is going to shut off his timeframe to negotiate anything more. Brexit is happening. I know that. I don’t have to be happy about it though as it has been disastrous so far and it hasn’t even happened yet. It has completely divided us and masks the real problem which has been 9 years of tory austerity. No one can predict the future, which is the point actually that you keep coming back to. No one knows where the EU will be in 3 years time. No one knows what Italians, Greeks , Scots , Catalonians, Hungarians etc will be thinking and doing in 3 years time. You don't know if you will be alive in 3 years time. That is not what the referendum was about. It wasn't about trying to instil fear of the future onto a people so that they obey. It was about democracy, self determination, who controls the UK. It was about whether we want to be part of an organisation. An organisation that exists to create Political and Economic union. Those that understood that question and having experienced the EU ( which should have been to their advantage) the electorate decided to leave. The problems that we have had since have been caused by a refusal to accept that decision, a refusal also by the Political class... which makes it a democratic issue. It is possible not to be in the EU and not to want to be in the EU , whatever your particular opinion may be about whether it is best to support the project or not.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 9:08:14 GMT
Yes , we have repeatedly argued this point so I won’t respond. But I think the (undemocratic) referendum result is still unknown as we don’t yet know what the leave vote is for and Johnson seems hell bent on a no deal or a very, very limited trade deal as he is going to shut off his timeframe to negotiate anything more. Brexit is happening. I know that. I don’t have to be happy about it though as it has been disastrous so far and it hasn’t even happened yet. It has completely divided us and masks the real problem which has been 9 years of tory austerity. No one can predict the future, which is the point actually that you keep coming back to. No one knows where the EU will be in 3 years time. No one knows what Italians, Greeks , Scots , Catalonians, Hungarians etc will be thinking and doing in 3 years time. You don't know if you will be alive in 3 years time. That is not what the referendum was about. It wasn't about trying to instil fear of the future onto a people so that they obey. It was about democracy, self determination, who controls the UK. It was about whether we want to be part of an organisation. An organisation that exists to create Political and Economic union. Those that understood that question and having experienced the EU ( which should have been to their advantage) the electorate decided to leave. The problems that we have had since have been caused by a refusal to accept that decision, a refusal also by the Political class... which makes it a democratic issue. It is possible not to be in the EU and not to want to be in the EU , whatever your particular opinion may be about whether it is best to support the project or not. You are right. Most of the problems if the last three years were caused by the unwillingness of parliment to get it done. Whilst Boris won’t fix this country overnight nor can any government 100 percent fix every facet of this country in a five year term; it seems to me the Tory majority has lifted the general mood of the country. There will always still be anti tori and anti brexit but lots of this country is happy that we now have a functioning majority that can start on Brexit and continue to the domestic issues. If they don’t do it right there is another chance to change in 5 years It was a genuine relief to watch parliment yesterday which seemed a more reserved place. You have a majority government and an opposition that now really has to work to become a more humbled genuine opposition. It was to easy for Corbyn to oppose/frustrate because the Tory government was so weak in itself propped up by DUP. Labour now need to work hard to get the “majority” of the country to change their views back to them. Even harder if they go down the same road
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 9:13:05 GMT
No one can predict the future, which is the point actually that you keep coming back to. No one knows where the EU will be in 3 years time. No one knows what Italians, Greeks , Scots , Catalonians, Hungarians etc will be thinking and doing in 3 years time. You don't know if you will be alive in 3 years time. That is not what the referendum was about. It wasn't about trying to instil fear of the future onto a people so that they obey. It was about democracy, self determination, who controls the UK. It was about whether we want to be part of an organisation. An organisation that exists to create Political and Economic union. Those that understood that question and having experienced the EU ( which should have been to their advantage) the electorate decided to leave. The problems that we have had since have been caused by a refusal to accept that decision, a refusal also by the Political class... which makes it a democratic issue. It is possible not to be in the EU and not to want to be in the EU , whatever your particular opinion may be about whether it is best to support the project or not. You are right. Most of the problems if the last three years were caused by the unwillingness of parliment to get it done. Whilst Boris won’t fix this country overnight nor can any government 100 percent fix every facet of this country in a five year term; it seems to me the Tory majority has lifted the general mood of the country.
There will always still be anti tori and anti brexit but lots of this country is happy that we now have a functioning majority that can start on Brexit and continue to the domestic issues. If they don’t do it right there is another chance to change in 5 years It was a genuine relief to watch parliment yesterday which seemed a more reserved place. You have a majority government and an opposition that now really has to work to become a more humbled genuine opposition. It was to easy for Corbyn to oppose/frustrate because the Tory government was so weak in itself propped up by DUP. Labour now need to work hard to get the “majority” of the country to change their views back to them. Even harder if they go down the same road Really? I guess it depends where you've been or who you've been talking too (obviously), but really?
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Post by salopstick on Dec 18, 2019 9:22:40 GMT
You are right. Most of the problems if the last three years were caused by the unwillingness of parliment to get it done. Whilst Boris won’t fix this country overnight nor can any government 100 percent fix every facet of this country in a five year term; it seems to me the Tory majority has lifted the general mood of the country.
There will always still be anti tori and anti brexit but lots of this country is happy that we now have a functioning majority that can start on Brexit and continue to the domestic issues. If they don’t do it right there is another chance to change in 5 years It was a genuine relief to watch parliment yesterday which seemed a more reserved place. You have a majority government and an opposition that now really has to work to become a more humbled genuine opposition. It was to easy for Corbyn to oppose/frustrate because the Tory government was so weak in itself propped up by DUP. Labour now need to work hard to get the “majority” of the country to change their views back to them. Even harder if they go down the same road Really? I guess it depends where you've been or who you've been talking too (obviously), but really? I said general mood. Mirror readers with purple hair are the minority
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 18, 2019 9:27:49 GMT
You are right. Most of the problems if the last three years were caused by the unwillingness of parliment to get it done. Whilst Boris won’t fix this country overnight nor can any government 100 percent fix every facet of this country in a five year term; it seems to me the Tory majority has lifted the general mood of the country.
There will always still be anti tori and anti brexit but lots of this country is happy that we now have a functioning majority that can start on Brexit and continue to the domestic issues. If they don’t do it right there is another chance to change in 5 years It was a genuine relief to watch parliment yesterday which seemed a more reserved place. You have a majority government and an opposition that now really has to work to become a more humbled genuine opposition. It was to easy for Corbyn to oppose/frustrate because the Tory government was so weak in itself propped up by DUP. Labour now need to work hard to get the “majority” of the country to change their views back to them. Even harder if they go down the same road Really? I guess it depends where you've been or who you've been talking too (obviously), but really? It does depend Indeed upon your circle but also on your stance towards BREXIT and possibly what you believe is your judgement on the " mood of the country" Remainers probably more than anyone else have been saying for 3 years that BREXIT is getting in the way of dealing with the " real" issues that the country faces...from their perspective...NHS , poverty...... others might include Culture clash and crime. The solution by Remainers , one way or another, was " Bollocks to BREXIT".... Boris's solution seems to be " let's get BREXIT done" The country chose Boris's way and in my opinion it was the only way to start to draw a line under the issue and start to move on. Bollocks to BREXIT was simply the unnacceptance of the result...to go down that root would have prolonged the agony. I think that Salop is right , the large Tory majority has enabled the country to start to move on....of course, now that we seem to be in this era where the entitled just can't accept decisions that they don't agree with,there are many who ste having difficulty moving on and regrouping to fight another day. It's one thing being disappointed with a result , it's another not accepting the result and keeping on and on and on about how wrong it is/ was ( however you dress it up)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 9:29:18 GMT
Really? I guess it depends where you've been or who you've been talking too (obviously), but really? I said general mood. Mirror readers with purple hair are the minority I'll be honest I don't know anyone with purple hair, or many Mirror readers. A lot of people seem pretty deflated by the state of things from what I see.....
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 18, 2019 9:30:47 GMT
And while you are doing that I was in uniform at the frontline of criminal justice obtaining the evidence you take credit for 😘 So you know that your job is utterly, utterly pointless without lawyers to carry it through. I do no criminal work though. Assuming you are in the police, your organisation almost ruined this case as they breached court orders in refusing to give disclosure on time and refused to process the charges and do anything until my work was done as they were too scared of getting it wrong. Luckily my client was brave and persisted without the help she should have had from the police and we succeeded. 😁 pointless 👍 says the man sat safe and warm in his office.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Dec 18, 2019 9:31:38 GMT
So they didn’t want labour then? Yes, Johnson is generally disliked. Corbyn is hated. The rest are irrelevant Finally you got there, Swinson/the Lib Dems are irrelevant. From your own poisoned pen.
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 18, 2019 9:35:32 GMT
Well said and you are not wrong, but a lot of us are not impressed. I sat in court a few weeks ago listening to a barrister defending a rapist and a GHI with intent who were duly convicted. The barrister was obviously being paid (a lot of money?) via legal aid and doing her job trying to persuade the jury to find the offenders not guilty. The jury found the offenders guilty and the judge sent them to jail. I believe justice was done. Please don't defend the legal profession as though they are all doing a noble job. Some are, as you, working for justice for victims, but there are lots earning a lucrative living defending the criminals in this country. I don’t do criminal law. But lawyers who do are badly paid unless they are very senior, particularly criminal barristers. Criminal barristers defend people accused of crime. Without criminal barristers you find nobody guilty of crime and we have no criminal justice system. They are absolutely critical otherwise how do you try someone for a crime? People have a right to be defended and if we don’t have that, we are no better than places like Iran who throw people in prison without a trial. What would you discribe as badly paid
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2019 9:36:29 GMT
Really? I guess it depends where you've been or who you've been talking too (obviously), but really? It does depend Indeed upon your circle but also on your stance towards BREXIT and possibly what you believe is your judgement on the " mood of the country" Remainers probably more than anyone else have been saying for 3 years that BREXIT is getting in the way of dealing with the " real" issues that the country faces...from their perspective...NHS , poverty...... others might include Culture clash and crime. The solution by Remainers , one way or another, was " Bollocks to BREXIT".... Boris's solution seems to be " let's get BREXIT done" The country chose Boris's way and in my opinion it was the only way to start to draw a line under the issue and start to move on. Bollocks to BREXIT was simply the unnacceptance of the result...to go down that root would have prolonged the agony. I think that Salop is right , the large Tory majority has enabled the country to start to move on....of course, now that we seem to be in this era where the entitled just can't accept decisions that they don't agree with,there are many who ste having difficulty moving on and regrouping to fight another day. It's one thing being disappointed with a result , it's another not accepting the result and keeping on and on and on about how wrong it is/ was ( however you dress it up) I accepted the EU referendum result and the election result, that's democracy. You say people should move on, but look at the media narrative. It's article after article about how Labour need to "soul search", and how "answers are needed". I would suggest they should move on by holding the current government to account like a fit and proper press should do. Time to look forwards not backwards. You don't get to move on if you're on of the millions of people in relative poverty, or homeless, or disabled and worried about your benefits though. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. We can, but then I'm guessing most on here are reasonably ok and are able to do so......
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