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Post by imho on May 23, 2017 10:08:21 GMT
Trump just said from now on he will call these terrorists " losers " What an embarrassment he is Don't jump on the band wagon, his speech and the use of the word losers was spot on and I'm sure will be applauded (he is an embarrassment tho)
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Post by yeokel on May 23, 2017 10:14:06 GMT
If these pricks either home or abroad what to play rough then give it too them in one night in cities like Dresden and Berlin we would have killed more innocents than we have done in these so called oppressed countries so if we can do it then to stop a monstrous regime let's start again. So, where do you suggest they start bombing first? Manchester, there's bound to be a few (maybe many) Islamic sympathisers there? Or Bradford, Leeds, Leicester, Birmingham? Or even Stoke on Trent. I'm sure we've got our fair share of them?
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Post by serpico on May 23, 2017 10:19:58 GMT
Take the moral high ground I have read on here! Seriously fuck off with this artsy farsty love in. As a nation we are defined as the little guy who has not taken shit from anyone in defence of our realm since the William the conquer and the Viking. A thousand years of empire majesty and pride yes we have done ropey shit name a nation who hasn't . If these pricks either home or abroad what to play rough then give it too them in one night in cities like Dresden and Berlin we would have killed more innocents than we have done in these so called oppressed countries so if we can do it then to stop a monstrous regime let's start again. Ps I don't apologise if I have offended anyone at the moment as I'm sick of scum and apologists it's 2017, we've already decimated 3 or 4 muslim nations and deposed multiple middle eastern rulers, what do you propose, bomb the piles of rubble some more ? there is no western military solution to this problem. here's the problem in a nutshell: for 16 years the west has been using the "terror war" as a cover for something much deeper, for instance Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or international terror aimed at the west, Saddam would have nothing to do with it, yet we attacked and decimated the place, it's action like these that have given credence to entities like al quada and thus helped fuel their cause, as former cia head of the bin laden unit has been saying for years now, western foreign policy is the one indispensable ally of the jihadis, they need it to survive, by fighting this parallel war of regime change alongside the "terror war" we've actually fuelled terror indirectly, this isn;t to blame anyone, it's just to show that bad policy has bad outcomes, just as the war on drugs has not helped quell drug abuse or availability. a congressman in the US, Ron Paul, advocated using a "letter of marque and reprisal" against bin laden after 9/11, this would have been the absolute correct response, narrowly go after bin laden and using private contractors, simply take him, and at that time his few hundred followers, out and come home, instead the temptation was too much for the people in washington and london, they used 9/11 for other motives and goals, regime change in the middle east and it's helped cause more terror, not less. explaining why a phenomenon appears and continues to flourish is not the same as excusing it, if bad policy has helped cause a problem then bad policy isn't going to fix it. it's got so bad now there needs to be extreme policies put in place, you cannot have people blowing up kids at concerts, action has to be taken. There needs to be a sober look at border controls even if this is homegrown, a halt in allowing people from certain regions coming in is a start, we can then redirect resources into the homegrown problem, the large majority of people coming in will be absolutely peaceful, but thats the problem, mixd in will be some who are not, and it's virtually impossible to distinguish them, so a temporary blanket ban makes sense to me. It might all be too late now though.
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Post by imho on May 23, 2017 10:25:48 GMT
Serpico - great post.
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Post by djduncanjames on May 23, 2017 10:27:02 GMT
We all know that for every one suicide bomber there are 100 or more ready to take his or her place. Unless something is done yesterdays terrible crime will happen again. Tolerance breeds intolerance. One place to start would be Mosques. What exactly goes on in there? What is being taught? Perhaps more importantly are Islamic schools where children are bought up with the Saudi curriculum which is explicitly antisemitic & homophobic. These people will never integrate voluntarily. We should now acknowledge that and bring in measures to stop any further Islamification of the UK Some of our players and our fans are muslim, and have integrated just fine. Terrorists are extremists. Many IRA bombers were religious too...
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Post by imho on May 23, 2017 10:33:23 GMT
We all know that for every one suicide bomber there are 100 or more ready to take his or her place. Unless something is done yesterdays terrible crime will happen again. Tolerance breeds intolerance. One place to start would be Mosques. What exactly goes on in there? What is being taught? Perhaps more importantly are Islamic schools where children are bought up with the Saudi curriculum which is explicitly antisemitic & homophobic. These people will never integrate voluntarily. We should now acknowledge that and bring in measures to stop any further Islamification of the UK Some of our players and our fans are muslim, and have integrated just fine. Terrorists are extremists. Many IRA bombers were religious too... You both are right, tho' I have a feeling you might be disagreeing with each other - more needs to be done education wise and in places of worship just as it was in Ireland
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 10:38:55 GMT
It makes me question how weak our MI5 must be. There are only 2 million Muslims in the U.K, with the technology and information at their disposal, their must surely be some form of A.I able to rule out at least half of these out as potential suspects. People don't radicalise privately, they're outward with their beliefs, they brag about it on social media or at least they are connected to people who do. Countries like France would love an intelligence department like ours, remember for all the hard work that goes on unannounced it only takes one person to slip through the net or get lucky. Thankless task unfortunately.... We are a tiny island and small Muslim populations compared to larger countries in mainland Europe. I am being cynical of course and I don't disregard the success they have lightly. I am questioning the approach to tackling those known to them and outwardly in the public sphere, the culture needs to change.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 10:40:46 GMT
Updates on Twitter saying that the Arndale has been evacuated after a package was found - could be anything.
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Post by djduncanjames on May 23, 2017 10:47:34 GMT
Countries like France would love an intelligence department like ours, remember for all the hard work that goes on unannounced it only takes one person to slip through the net or get lucky. Thankless task unfortunately.... We are a tiny island and small Muslim populations compared to larger countries in mainland Europe. I am being cynical of course and I don't disregard the success they have lightly. I am questioning the approach to tackling those known to them and outwardly in the public sphere, the culture needs to change. How though? Religious institutions tend to close ranks. Look at the paedophilia scandals the world over - Priests and whatnot just relocated to the remote Arctic or rural towns instead of investigated / prosecuted.
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Post by harryburrows on May 23, 2017 10:52:32 GMT
Trump just said from now on he will call these terrorists " losers " What an embarrassment he is Don't jump on the band wagon, his speech and the use of the word losers was spot on and I'm sure will be applauded (he is an embarrassment tho) No bandwagon or agenda I just expect something a bit more considered and statesman like from the leader of the free world
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Post by manmarking on May 23, 2017 11:03:21 GMT
Take the moral high ground I have read on here! Seriously fuck off with this artsy farsty love in. As a nation we are defined as the little guy who has not taken shit from anyone in defence of our realm since the William the conquer and the Viking. A thousand years of empire majesty and pride yes we have done ropey shit name a nation who hasn't . If these pricks either home or abroad what to play rough then give it too them in one night in cities like Dresden and Berlin we would have killed more innocents than we have done in these so called oppressed countries so if we can do it then to stop a monstrous regime let's start again. Ps I don't apologise if I have offended anyone at the moment as I'm sick of scum and apologists it's 2017, we've already decimated 3 or 4 muslim nations and deposed multiple middle eastern rulers, what do you propose, bomb the piles of rubble some more ? there is no western military solution to this problem. here's the problem in a nutshell: for 16 years the west has been using the "terror war" as a cover for something much deeper, for instance Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or international terror aimed at the west, Saddam would have nothing to do with it, yet we attacked and decimated the place, it's action like these that have given credence to entities like al quada and thus helped fuel their cause, as former cia head of the bin laden unit has been saying for years now, western foreign policy is the one indispensable ally of the jihadis, they need it to survive, by fighting this parallel war of regime change alongside the "terror war" we've actually fuelled terror indirectly, this isn;t to blame anyone, it's just to show that bad policy has bad outcomes, just as the war on drugs has not helped quell drug abuse or availability. a congressman in the US, Ron Paul, advocated using a "letter of marque and reprisal" against bin laden after 9/11, this would have been the absolute correct response, narrowly go after bin laden and using private contractors, simply take him, and at that time his few hundred followers, out and come home, instead the temptation was too much for the people in washington and london, they used 9/11 for other motives and goals, regime change in the middle east and it's helped cause more terror, not less. explaining why a phenomenon appears and continues to flourish is not the same as excusing it, if bad policy has helped cause a problem then bad policy isn't going to fix it. it's got so bad now there needs to be extreme policies put in place, you cannot have people blowing up kids at concerts, action has to be taken. There needs to be a sober look at border controls even if this is homegrown, a halt in allowing people from certain regions coming in is a start, we can then redirect resources into the homegrown problem, the large majority of people coming in will be absolutely peaceful, but thats the problem, mixd in will be some who are not, and it's virtually impossible to distinguish them, so a temporary blanket ban makes sense to me. It might all be too late now though. Very good post mate.
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Post by desman2 on May 23, 2017 11:09:37 GMT
Seems a reasoned response
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Post by FbrgVaStkFan on May 23, 2017 11:11:34 GMT
Don't jump on the band wagon, his speech and the use of the word losers was spot on and I'm sure will be applauded (he is an embarrassment tho) No bandwagon or agenda I just expect something a bit more considered and statesman like from the leader of the free world Why? Because it's been so effective in the past on this issue?
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 11:11:36 GMT
We are a tiny island and small Muslim populations compared to larger countries in mainland Europe. I am being cynical of course and I don't disregard the success they have lightly. I am questioning the approach to tackling those known to them and outwardly in the public sphere, the culture needs to change. How though? Religious institutions tend to close ranks. Look at the paedophilia scandals the world over - Priests and whatnot just relocated to the remote Arctic or rural towns instead of investigated / prosecuted. We are not talking religious institutions we are talking about whole communities living within the greater community.
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Post by harryburrows on May 23, 2017 11:17:57 GMT
No bandwagon or agenda I just expect something a bit more considered and statesman like from the leader of the free world Why? Because it's been so effective in the past on this issue? Err. No just expect more from him than things you may read on twitter or the oatcake
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Post by PerCyfilth ....Captains Log on May 23, 2017 11:22:53 GMT
Many of these terrorists are home grown ..born and raised here and their twisted ideology is spread by radical preachers in mosques throughout the country. PC needs to go out the window in investigating and rounding them up and kicking them out or locking them up. Anyone proved to have involvement in mass murder should get the death penalty not live the life of luxury in our soft prison system. I will gladly throw the switch.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 11:26:53 GMT
Yet "progressives" have the gall to call Trump a Nazi for being one of the few leaders to come up with a common-sense solution to the problems we're seeing by wanting a "Muslim ban". This is an act of war and the only legitimate response is to persecute the communities which are producing these mass-murderers off of a conveyor-belt. It is their 1400 year old cult of death that allows this sort of shit to happen. If our nation had any collective bollocks we'd throw the geneva convention/human rights act out of the window and get to work on the task at hand.
Sadiq Khan. "Terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city". No mate, I think you'll actually find terrorism is part and parcel of living with muslims.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 23, 2017 11:32:27 GMT
Yet "progressives" have the gall to call Trump a Nazi for being one of the few leaders to come up with a common-sense solution to the problems we're seeing by wanting a "Muslim ban". This is an act of war and the only legitimate response is to persecute the communities which are producing these mass-murderers off of a conveyor-belt. It is their 1400 year old cult of death that allows this sort of shit to happen. If our nation had any collective bollocks we'd throw the geneva convention/human rights act out of the window and get to work on the task at hand. Sadiq Khan. "Terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city". No mate, I think you'll actually find terrorism is part and parcel of living with muslims. Whilst also signing a huge arms deal to sell arms to the biggest purveyors of Wahhabi Islam in the world. He doesn't care really. Persecution of communities never works, give me one piece of evidence to suggest it does. Something needs to be done absolutely, to challenge this poison infecting Mosques and Islamic communities, but wide spread reprisals against Muslims won't do anything.
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Post by crapslinger on May 23, 2017 11:38:51 GMT
Yet "progressives" have the gall to call Trump a Nazi for being one of the few leaders to come up with a common-sense solution to the problems we're seeing by wanting a "Muslim ban". This is an act of war and the only legitimate response is to persecute the communities which are producing these mass-murderers off of a conveyor-belt. It is their 1400 year old cult of death that allows this sort of shit to happen. If our nation had any collective bollocks we'd throw the geneva convention/human rights act out of the window and get to work on the task at hand. Sadiq Khan. "Terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city". No mate, I think you'll actually find terrorism is part and parcel of living with muslims. Whilst also signing a huge arms deal to sell arms to the biggest purveyors of Wahhabi Islam in the world. He doesn't care really. Persecution of communities never works, give me one piece of evidence to suggest it does. Something needs to be done absolutely, to challenge this poison infecting Mosques and Islamic communities, but wide spread reprisals against Muslims won't do anything. What are your suggestions to stop these incidents ?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 11:40:29 GMT
Whilst also signing a huge arms deal to sell arms to the biggest purveyors of Wahhabi Islam in the world. He doesn't care really. I'm not going to lie this is a good point and something I found deeply, deeply troubling. edit: on second thoughts not the best of points because Trump's policy which was revealed a long time ago and then this arms deal which only happened a few days ago are separate of one another, so being in favour of the former isn't illegitimised by being repulsed by the latter
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 23, 2017 11:47:11 GMT
So just a coincidence that it was on the 4th anniversary of Lee Rigby's murder? 22nd May is a bit of a date in their religion, going back to when Alfred the great defeated Persia, an attempted assasination on Saladin and Napoleons claim to give Jerusalem back to the Jews all on the 22nd May, I dont know if its all coincidence but it is a date that seems to have significance. Vandals trash Lee Rigby’s memorial days before anniversary of his brutal murder - metro.co.uk
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 23, 2017 11:49:17 GMT
BREAKING: ISIS claim responsibility.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 11:49:45 GMT
Hard for me to post about this tragedy.
Manchester, a place where the wife and I used to go every other weekend and loved.
My first thoughts, like many I'm sure were my daughter she lives in Liverpool but often dines out in Manchester with friends. Then I wake this morning and in the Sentinel I read pupils from my Grandsons school were at the concert.
They make war on little girls and boys just what kind of cowards are these?
I have Muslim friends they are peaceful wonderful people, our religions have never caused a harsh word, they want the same for their children as we do.
This is a group that need to be hunted like the rats they are and religion/race can not be allowed to be a shelter for them, no matter who it upsets.
Anyone found to have been harbouring a terrorist or supporting terrorist activity by financial means should be jailed. Not deported the crime is on our shores and we should deal with it not send them back to do it somewhere else.
Anyone found guilty of terrorism or plotting a terrorist act should face the death penalty. Those that live by the sword die by the sword.
Leave religion and race out of it these are neither , these are animals and it's time they were put down.
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Post by Northy on May 23, 2017 11:53:24 GMT
A very good post rivival, I think many of us has stood at the bottom of those stairs waiting for our children to come out of a concert at the MEN, I have a few times, dropped them off, and had something to eat in Manchester whilst waiting for the concert to finish
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 11:54:08 GMT
BREAKING: ISIS claim responsibility. They always claim responsibility whether they were involved or not though....
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 23, 2017 11:54:29 GMT
Whilst also signing a huge arms deal to sell arms to the biggest purveyors of Wahhabi Islam in the world. He doesn't care really. Persecution of communities never works, give me one piece of evidence to suggest it does. Something needs to be done absolutely, to challenge this poison infecting Mosques and Islamic communities, but wide spread reprisals against Muslims won't do anything. What are your suggestions to stop these incidents ? Not giving arms to Saudi Arabia and their promotion of Wahhabism for a kickoff. Just like Christianity, Islam has sects far worse than that of others. ISIS' treatments of Shia's and Sufi's is testament to this. So that immediately renders any response against "pan Islam" redundant, as you'll find Shia's loathe ISIS as much as the west do. Abroad, in Syria we need to oversee some sort of peace deal, because as is always the case people love liberating themselves. If we go in their, boots on the ground we simply churn up the barbed wire and down in comes again in a mess. Likewise, if we're going in their bombing, we need to know who, why, what. Not just fire and forget as the current policy is. Syria's a mess of ideology and issues. In this country, we need a thorough investigation into why British Born non-muslims as in the case of Khalid Masood, are turning towards this poisoned ideology. Then we need to find out who the people are promoting, teaching, disseminating this hatred online, in mosques and in person. This has to be combated at source, which will be the radical clerics spewing out hate. If these individuals can be identified, isolated and investigated and tried in a full court of law we'd go a long way to solving the problem. I don't pretend to have the confidence to say this will work, but I have the confidence to say widespread reprisals against a particular group of people NEVER ends well. This is a complex problem, with complex solution, it's not just as simple as "fighting back".
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 23, 2017 11:56:24 GMT
Whilst also signing a huge arms deal to sell arms to the biggest purveyors of Wahhabi Islam in the world. He doesn't care really. I'm not going to lie this is a good point and something I found deeply, deeply troubling. edit: on second thoughts not the best of points because Trump's policy which was revealed a long time ago and then this arms deal which only happened a few days ago are separate of one another, so being in favour of the former isn't illegitimised by being repulsed by the latter Completely irrelevant point. I completely disagree with your promotion of this religion, but I'm going to give you what you want to help spread it in return for cash. Moral hypocrisy of the highest order from Trump. Regardless of how you look at it.
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Post by Northy on May 23, 2017 11:57:34 GMT
What are your suggestions to stop these incidents ? Not giving arms to Saudi Arabia and their promotion of Wahhabism for a kickoff. Just like Christianity, Islam has sects far worse than that of others. ISIS' treatments of Shia's and Sufi's is testament to this. So that immediately renders any response against "pan Islam" redundant, as you'll find Shia's loathe ISIS as much as the west do. If we don't give arms to Sauid Arabia, then somebody will and we will end up with thousands of people out of work, then the government will be slaughterd for it. It's a mess and will take a world wide ban on arms sales, but unfortunatley, that will never happen.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 23, 2017 12:00:20 GMT
Not giving arms to Saudi Arabia and their promotion of Wahhabism for a kickoff. Just like Christianity, Islam has sects far worse than that of others. ISIS' treatments of Shia's and Sufi's is testament to this. So that immediately renders any response against "pan Islam" redundant, as you'll find Shia's loathe ISIS as much as the west do. If we don't give arms to Sauid Arabia, then somebody will and we will end up with thousands of people out of work, then the government will be slaughterd for it. It's a mess and will take a world wide ban on arms sales, but unfortunatley, that will never happen. Then we cannot claim to be on the moral high ground. In terms of our interactions with the nations of the middle east. Simple as that. If someone has to give them weapons, let it be someone else otherwise we compromise our arguments from the outset.
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Post by stillgame4it on May 23, 2017 12:02:33 GMT
A very good post rivival, I think many of us has stood at the bottom of those stairs waiting for our children to come out of a concert at the MEN, I have a few times, dropped them off, and had something to eat in Manchester whilst waiting for the concert to finish I did last night.......thankfully mine are all ok, but heartbreaking for the killed and injured. Makes me wonder if any of the other parents waiting near me outside have lost loved ones? What a cold feeling this leaves me with.
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