|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:12:35 GMT
Not everything connected to the history of this country was detrimental to the rest of the World .....we actually achieved some positive things . Oh god forbid we big ourselves up mate ......we are British after all Nowadays we seem to spend our time beating ourselves and our nation up Sadly many do I'm afraid .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:18:05 GMT
Oh god forbid we big ourselves up mate ......we are British after all Nowadays we seem to spend our time beating ourselves and our nation up Plenty to big ourselves up about, science, culture etc. The Empire at worst was a distasteful criminal enterprise and a best is an archaic remainder of a bygone age. Give awards by all means but make them relevant and contemporary. The Britsh fucking Empire indeed. Like it or loathe i( and you obviously loathe it ) , the Empire existed and was a significant part of the history during the last half a millennia ....there is no getting away from it , changing the name of a medal or two for services rendered won't alter it one little bit .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:20:00 GMT
Deport him. If he doesn't like our way's he can fucking go. That's extreme ....if he doesn't want to receive it fine ....it's not compulsory .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:32:48 GMT
Not trying to live in the past. Like I say. It's not the fault of people living today.
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 13:35:05 GMT
This is definitely true, however it may not feel that way to someone whose cultural heritage was to be at the receiving enid of some of the Empire's less positive largesse.
Besides, the Empire doesn't exist any more so "Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire" is a fairly ridiculous title. Time to rename it.
I'm not really to concerned what they call the awards that are presented these days .....it's the constant sniping concerning the country''s history that irritates me ...mostly people quoting tired old cliches about concentration camps and slavery amongst other things ..there is plenty to be proud of where Britain is concerned and it's place in history ....people do seem to want to focus though only on negative aspects of it . Fair enough mate and I largely agree, but that is your/our perception of Britain's history. If your heritage has been on the receiving end of empire then you are entitled to hold a different opinion and, as you say, refuse the award and explain why not.
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 8, 2016 13:48:02 GMT
Colonising, whoever it was done by, typically produced more harm than good. We can't change history but the least we can do, as a civilised nation, is admit our mistakes. This involves taking credit for the good, and blame for the bad.
Failure to do both makes us all look small-minded.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:51:48 GMT
I'm not really to concerned what they call the awards that are presented these days .....it's the constant sniping concerning the country''s history that irritates me ...mostly people quoting tired old cliches about concentration camps and slavery amongst other things ..there is plenty to be proud of where Britain is concerned and it's place in history ....people do seem to want to focus though only on negative aspects of it . Fair enough mate and I largely agree, but that is your/our perception of Britain's history. If your heritage has been on the receiving end of empire then you are entitled to hold a different opinion and, as you say, refuse the award and explain why not. All you can ask in anything is a properly balanced argument ......no problem with that at all .
|
|
|
Post by ElworthPotter on Oct 8, 2016 13:53:48 GMT
Right if we're going down that route i want reparations for the damages my family suffered during the occupation of the Roman empire, Viking pillages and the Norman conquest throw in the Germans for damages from the 2nd world war as well as the japs then we can give a that to who else we pissed off. Follow that up with claiming compensation from the Irish government for actions involving their citizens during the Irish troubles which we can then give to the northern Irish for the trouble we caused and top it off with a bit of pressure on the Arab nations for any of their involvement with Islamic fundamentalism. Its one big giant circus as pointed out there were as many African tribes involved in slave trading as were being traded it has been a currency of warfare since we first started chucking rock's at each other as monkeys in the stone age. As a nation and an empire we were one of the first to abolish slavery and have a more open and acceptable society hell women had less rights in this country than a colored male citizen at the turn of the century. I accept that our nation has done for want of a better word ropey things in the past show me one that hasnt or its descendants/ancestors that have strayed over a line. Its a case of point we shouldn't have to change a tradition because some one may take offence to a wording or phrase. Hell ive been discriminated against in society today because im from a council estate lower income and catholic you have to roll with things at times. My youngest daughter has been sexually harrased by a black lad a college now the colour of his skin make no difference to me his actions do but then have to pussyfoot around incase i offend him because he is a minority ive had my fill we are all human no matter what the way i see it if your a cunt your a count and I'll treat you that way just dont ask me too treat you different because of your age religion colour of skin or gender/sexual orientation. Howard Gayle never said he wanted compensation for any of those things nor has anyone on here suggested he should get it. He's just said no thanks to an honour that represents an empire he disapproves of celebrating. Talk about going overboard
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:57:07 GMT
Colonising, whoever it was done by, typically produced more harm than good. We can't change history but the least we can do, as a civilised nation, is admit our mistakes. This involves taking credit for the good, and blame for the bad. Failure to do both makes us all look small-minded. Well the Australians , Canadians and New Zealander's to name but three former colonies don't seem to have done too badly out of it ......why do we have to keep admitting to mistakes ( always the same ones constantly ) we are aware of them ....how many times do we have to keep holding our hand up ?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 13:58:09 GMT
Right if we're going down that route i want reparations for the damages my family suffered during the occupation of the Roman empire, Viking pillages and the Norman conquest throw in the Germans for damages from the 2nd world war as well as the japs then we can give a that to who else we pissed off. Follow that up with claiming compensation from the Irish government for actions involving their citizens during the Irish troubles which we can then give to the northern Irish for the trouble we caused and top it off with a bit of pressure on the Arab nations for any of their involvement with Islamic fundamentalism. Its one big giant circus as pointed out there were as many African tribes involved in slave trading as were being traded it has been a currency of warfare since we first started chucking rock's at each other as monkeys in the stone age. As a nation and an empire we were one of the first to abolish slavery and have a more open and acceptable society hell women had less rights in this country than a colored male citizen at the turn of the century. I accept that our nation has done for want of a better word ropey things in the past show me one that hasnt or its descendants/ancestors that have strayed over a line. Its a case of point we shouldn't have to change a tradition because some one may take offence to a wording or phrase. Hell ive been discriminated against in society today because im from a council estate lower income and catholic you have to roll with things at times. My youngest daughter has been sexually harrased by a black lad a college now the colour of his skin make no difference to me his actions do but then have to pussyfoot around incase i offend him because he is a minority ive had my fill we are all human no matter what the way i see it if your a cunt your a count and I'll treat you that way just dont ask me too treat you different because of your age religion colour of skin or gender/sexual orientation. Howard Gayle never said he wanted compensation for any of those things nor has anyone on here suggested he should get it. He's just said no thanks to an honour that represents an empire he disapproves of celebrating. Talk about going overboard As is his perogotive ....enough said .
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 8, 2016 14:16:26 GMT
Plenty to big ourselves up about, science, culture etc. The Empire at worst was a distasteful criminal enterprise and a best is an archaic remainder of a bygone age. Give awards by all means but make them relevant and contemporary. The Britsh fucking Empire indeed. Like it or loathe i( and you obviously loathe it ) , the Empire existed and was a significant part of the history during the last half a millennia ....there is no getting away from it , changing the name of a medal or two for services rendered won't alter it one little bit . Significant part of history no doubt but not particularly relevant in the modern world. Surely you have to aknowledge the serious failings of the past as well as the glorious achievements to have a true sense of nationhood if its so important. What's wrong with the British Medal, The National Medal, The Citizens Medal etc.
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Oct 8, 2016 14:16:53 GMT
Right if we're going down that route i want reparations for the damages my family suffered during the occupation of the Roman empire, Viking pillages and the Norman conquest throw in the Germans for damages from the 2nd world war as well as the japs then we can give a that to who else we pissed off. Follow that up with claiming compensation from the Irish government for actions involving their citizens during the Irish troubles which we can then give to the northern Irish for the trouble we caused and top it off with a bit of pressure on the Arab nations for any of their involvement with Islamic fundamentalism. Its one big giant circus as pointed out there were as many African tribes involved in slave trading as were being traded it has been a currency of warfare since we first started chucking rock's at each other as monkeys in the stone age. As a nation and an empire we were one of the first to abolish slavery and have a more open and acceptable society hell women had less rights in this country than a colored male citizen at the turn of the century. I accept that our nation has done for want of a better word ropey things in the past show me one that hasnt or its descendants/ancestors that have strayed over a line. Its a case of point we shouldn't have to change a tradition because some one may take offence to a wording or phrase. Hell ive been discriminated against in society today because im from a council estate lower income and catholic you have to roll with things at times. My youngest daughter has been sexually harrased by a black lad a college now the colour of his skin make no difference to me his actions do but then have to pussyfoot around incase i offend him because he is a minority ive had my fill we are all human no matter what the way i see it if your a cunt your a count and I'll treat you that way just dont ask me too treat you different because of your age religion colour of skin or gender/sexual orientation. Howard Gayle never said he wanted compensation for any of those things nor has anyone on here suggested he should get it. He's just said no thanks to an honour that represents an empire he disapproves of celebrating. Talk about going overboard I appreciate his perogative my point is that history doesnt always reflect how a society is today and to be constantly blaming the past for everything is no beneficial always. Hell he could accept the award and pitch for it to be renamed for future generations. He was being recognized for his attempts and work in intergration and acceptance of minority cultures, to then turn around and say he wants to in essence not be accepted by the organisation he want to be more accessible and acceptable is strange. You can illicit more change from the inside more often than the outside however our society provides him with the ability to choose to decline and the ability to air his views. Its strange that people want equality then wish to be different is my take. This post contains paragraphs because i want skankmonkey to accept me 😘
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 8, 2016 14:18:07 GMT
Colonising, whoever it was done by, typically produced more harm than good. We can't change history but the least we can do, as a civilised nation, is admit our mistakes. This involves taking credit for the good, and blame for the bad. Failure to do both makes us all look small-minded. Well the Australians , Canadians and New Zealander's to name but three former colonies don't seem to have done too badly out of it ......why do we have to keep admitting to mistakes ( always the same ones constantly ) we are aware of them ....how many times do we have to keep holding our hand up ? I'm not sure the indigenous peoples would share that view
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Oct 8, 2016 14:18:37 GMT
Ps don't forget the American war of independance was fought for no small part due to the empires abolishment of slavery and the refusal of American landowners to abide to this
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 14:20:12 GMT
Colonising, whoever it was done by, typically produced more harm than good. We can't change history but the least we can do, as a civilised nation, is admit our mistakes. This involves taking credit for the good, and blame for the bad. Failure to do both makes us all look small-minded. Well the Australians , Canadians and New Zealander's to name but three former colonies don't seem to have done too badly out of it ......why do we have to keep admitting to mistakes ( always the same ones constantly ) we are aware of them ....how many times do we have to keep holding our hand up ? The Aboriginal, Native American and Maori peoples of those colonies haven't done particularly well out being colonised. I expect they mostly wished we had left them alone mate. Different perspectives.
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 14:25:37 GMT
Well the Australians , Canadians and New Zealander's to name but three former colonies don't seem to have done too badly out of it ......why do we have to keep admitting to mistakes ( always the same ones constantly ) we are aware of them ....how many times do we have to keep holding our hand up ? I'm not sure the indigenous peoples would share that view Damn. Beat me to it! I've been through the economic history of Empire before with that idiot mumf. And for that reason I'm out. NB Not implying in any way that Bisp bears any resemblance to mumf. :-) :-)
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 14:36:06 GMT
Ps don't forget the American war of independance was fought for no small part due to the empires abolishment of slavery and the refusal of American landowners to abide to this The Empire didn't abolish slavery until 1833 and the slaves were finally nominally freed in 1838. (bonded servitude continued) The American War of Independance was 1776. The two aren't connected. The American Civil War 1860- was, to some extent, about slavery and the modernisation of the US economy. The British favoured the slave owning South in that war. Until it became apparent they were going to lose that is.
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Oct 8, 2016 14:40:18 GMT
Ps don't forget the American war of independance was fought for no small part due to the empires abolishment of slavery and the refusal of American landowners to abide to this The Empire didn't abolish slavery until 1833 and the slaves were finally nominally freed in 1838. (bonded servitude continued) The American War of Independance was 1776. The two aren't connected. The American Civil War 1860- was, to some extent, about slavery and the modernisation of the US economy. The British favoured the slave owning South in that war. Until it became apparent they were going to lose that is. I ll stand corrected however we abolished slavery in 1807 after debating it for 20 years who knew politics has always been slow then emancipation started in 1833 like you said. Either way all forms of slavery is scummy by all nations we are all equal and that is the message we should all be preaching and the message of how far all nation have come bar a few since then.Its ignorance what needs to be changed not history.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:40:56 GMT
Like it or loathe i( and you obviously loathe it ) , the Empire existed and was a significant part of the history during the last half a millennia ....there is no getting away from it , changing the name of a medal or two for services rendered won't alter it one little bit . Significant part of history no doubt but not particularly relevant in the modern world. Surely you have to aknowledge the serious failings of the past as well as the glorious achievements to have a true sense of nationhood if its so important. What's wrong with the British Medal, The National Medal, The Citizens Medal etc. Nothing , those sound fine to me ...that wasn't my point , dwelling on historical mistakes and short commings aren't relevant in the modern world . To achieve progress admit past failings and move on ....that's the important thing to recognise .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:43:15 GMT
Ps don't forget the American war of independance was fought for no small part due to the empires abolishment of slavery and the refusal of American landowners to abide to this The Empire didn't abolish slavery until 1833 and the slaves were finally nominally freed in 1838. (bonded servitude continued) The American War of Independance was 1776. The two aren't connected. The American Civil War 1860- was, to some extent, about slavery and the modernisation of the US economy. The British favoured the slave owning South in that war. Until it became apparent they were going to lose that is. Very true ,Virginia. which was the main protagonist in forming the Confederacy was often known as little England .
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 8, 2016 14:45:21 GMT
I doubt the original inhabitants of the British Isles were all that pleased when the Vikings & Roman's & the like rocked up. No fucker ever bangs on about that though do they? Still, it doesn't fit in with the fucking pathetic bullshit of the 'modern Brit' where we have to hate everything about what our fellow country men did decades/centuries before we were even fucking born... Of course these same 'self-haters' are always nowhere to be seen whenever we get to mention all the fantastic things our country has done for the world... Not as we are ever allowed to mention things like that 'cos then we're just racist, xenophobic, bigots.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:51:36 GMT
Well the Australians , Canadians and New Zealander's to name but three former colonies don't seem to have done too badly out of it ......why do we have to keep admitting to mistakes ( always the same ones constantly ) we are aware of them ....how many times do we have to keep holding our hand up ? The Aboriginal, Native American and Maori peoples of those colonies haven't done particularly well out being colonised. I expect they mostly wished we had left them alone mate. Different perspectives. I expect that they do ....history is littered with examples like these , it was the way of the world from earliest times ......it's interesting that it's always the former British colonies that are selected as examples of how colonialism is bad , Nothing much is ever thrown Spain's way these days regarding South America although I realise that's not what this discussion was about .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:52:34 GMT
I doubt the original inhabitants of the British Isles were all that pleased when the Vikings & Roman's & the like rocked up. No fucker ever bangs on about that though do they? Still, it doesn't fit in with the fucking pathetic bullshit of the 'modern Brit' where we have to hate everything about what our fellow country men did decades/centuries before we were even fucking born... Of course these same 'self-haters' are always nowhere to be seen whenever we get to mention all the fantastic things our country has done for the world... Not as we are ever allowed to mention things like that 'cos then we're just racist, xenophobic, bigots. Exactly right .
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 14:53:54 GMT
The Empire didn't abolish slavery until 1833 and the slaves were finally nominally freed in 1838. (bonded servitude continued) The American War of Independance was 1776. The two aren't connected. The American Civil War 1860- was, to some extent, about slavery and the modernisation of the US economy. The British favoured the slave owning South in that war. Until it became apparent they were going to lose that is. Very true ,Virginia. which was the main protagonist in forming the Confederacy was often known as little England . I've got a cracking military history trip with my brother on the cards for next year Bisp. 10ish days in Spain visiting Civil War/Revolution sites. The usual camping etc.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:58:42 GMT
I'm not sure the indigenous peoples would share that view Damn. Beat me to it! I've been through the economic history of Empire before with that idiot mumf. And for that reason I'm out. NB Not implying in any way that Bisp bears any resemblance to mumf. :-) :-) I think you have to realise I'm not beating the drum of Empire here .....I'm perfectly well aware of the the short commings of it and of the suffering endured by natives of the colonies ....my main point is that we haven't all been bad throughout history ....and low points though there were , there are plenty of things that we have given back ....that's all
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 14:59:39 GMT
Very true ,Virginia. which was the main protagonist in forming the Confederacy was often known as little England . I've got a cracking military history trip with my brother on the cards for next year Bisp. 10ish days in Spain visiting Civil War/Revolution sites. The usual camping etc. Excellent prospect by the sound of it .
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 8, 2016 15:07:08 GMT
The Aboriginal, Native American and Maori peoples of those colonies haven't done particularly well out being colonised. I expect they mostly wished we had left them alone mate. Different perspectives. I expect that they do ....history is littered with examples like these , it was the way of the world from earliest times ......it's interesting that it's always the former British colonies that are selected as examples of how colonialism is bad , Nothing much is ever thrown Spain's way these days regarding South America although I realise that's not what this discussion was about . Because we're British, and by default have more knowledge of the British Empire than other empires. It's the same reason we discuss more about British politics than any other country, because it's more relevant to us. In my original post I said colonising was more bad than good. Doesn't matter who did it - French, Dutch etc.
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 15:12:07 GMT
I doubt the original inhabitants of the British Isles were all that pleased when the Vikings & Roman's & the like rocked up. No fucker ever bangs on about that though do they? Still, it doesn't fit in with the fucking pathetic bullshit of the 'modern Brit' where we have to hate everything about what our fellow country men did decades/centuries before we were even fucking born... Of course these same 'self-haters' are always nowhere to be seen whenever we get to mention all the fantastic things our country has done for the world... Not as we are ever allowed to mention things like that 'cos then we're just racist, xenophobic, bigots. It's not about hate DC. There is plenty as you say to be proud of in British history, certainly in the last century. We have to accept the wrongs as well though. We live with many of the consequences today. Not ducking the truth makes us much stronger imo. Reactions to the Romans and Vikings are lost in time but it's worth noting the Anglo-Saxons bore a pretty strong grudge against the Norman occupiers for a long long time after. I used to know someone who claimed to be a Pictish nationalist. He pretty much hated everyone.
|
|
|
Post by Skankmonkey on Oct 8, 2016 15:13:44 GMT
I've got a cracking military history trip with my brother on the cards for next year Bisp. 10ish days in Spain visiting Civil War/Revolution sites. The usual camping etc. Excellent prospect by the sound of it . I'm very much looking forward to it. I'll report back as and when.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2016 15:21:12 GMT
I expect that they do ....history is littered with examples like these , it was the way of the world from earliest times ......it's interesting that it's always the former British colonies that are selected as examples of how colonialism is bad , Nothing much is ever thrown Spain's way these days regarding South America although I realise that's not what this discussion was about . Because we're British, and by default have more knowledge of the British Empire than other empires. It's the same reason we discuss more about British politics than any other country, because it's more relevant to us. In my original post I said colonising was more bad than good. Doesn't matter who did it - French, Dutch etc. Fair comment mate .
|
|