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Post by samba :) on Sept 5, 2015 0:02:59 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? How much time have you got on your hands to put all that it must of taken ages
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 5, 2015 0:18:05 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? i agree with lots that you have to say there, but would add that there is a very devoted set of posters on here that do regularly slate him at any opportunity, and it's a bit silly to put that on those that think he can do no wrong. Also, I'd like to add the view it our giving as balanced I s one view, and really aligned to your previous posts on him being an athlete but not really a footballer. It's a view that some share, and some do not, but not really any more balanced than that of anyone else's, be it bayernoatcake or metalhead. It's not something with Cameron that we don't see with other players. The most prolific posters seem to have pretty set in stone opinions about players and cameron is not immune. About the only players to be mostly immune to this are Shawcross and Whelan, but they have their @thelastoftheidk and whydelilah. Walters, Wilson, Adam, Ireland, Diouf, Arnie, Bardsley, MVG, all have their detractors. Nzonzi did too, despite being head and shoulders above everyone else for player of the season. It's just something I think will always be a part of the oatcake where people say a player is shit and then have to defend their evaluation. Sometimes it's clear like with Shea and teixiera, they are not premier league quality footballers, but with all the others I've mentioned I think it is clear that they are good enough to cut it at this level. The anti-American stuff is pretty silly, both when it comes to the accusations of being anti-American and the trolling. I'm from the U.S. But could care less if Cameron played for stoke or not. While he is a stoke player though I hope he plays well, and with how shitty the U.S. Defence has been recently I was happy that he was brought back into the national team. With all the assholes we have over here though I'd probably not like yanks if I was born as something else. A big reason why I follow the premier league and not MLS, and like football in general is tied to my identity as a self-hating American. Anyway back to Geoff, I was not too thrilled when he joined stoke, yet have grown to think he is and has been a decent player for us. He is not the same type of player as nzonzi, or as good of a centre-back as Ryan or Huth when they were at their best. But, I do think he has been our best all-around right back in the premier league, although Johnson could potentially be even better for us. And I think he has done well in the middle of defence to start this season, but not enough to cause Ryan to lose his place. He's a versatile player, not as bad with the ball at his feet as many on here claim, and not as good in the air as he should be with his tall stature. Any way that's my view, not a balanced or final view, just one opinion among many on here.
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Post by watcher on Sept 5, 2015 0:20:13 GMT
Scares me at right back and even more so at centre back. Good athlete is Geoff but defence ain't his position .
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Post by keysersoze on Sept 5, 2015 2:59:48 GMT
I must be honest: I hope Stoke sell Geoff in the January window. I've grown tired with the bayerns and Pejices of the world. There's little Geoff can do to win over Stoke supporters, his every move is criticised and belabored. He's done all that has been asked of him, has filled in more than capably at centre half, and still is the most underappreciated player I can remember in years. Move on, Geoffrey. Find a club that wants you.
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Post by keysersoze on Sept 5, 2015 3:00:43 GMT
He switched off, the striker got the wrong side of him, a goal was scored. It was bad defending. Cameron and Wilson are very similar beasts. Both scare the shite out of me at centre back and neither are good enough for regular Premier League football there. The cross was delivered unchallenged. I assume you're going to hammer someone for not closing down right? It was 9vs11 and they were overloading us with bodies. Blaming Geoff for a goal that was somewhat inevitable (they'd certainly been pressing after the second red) is incredibly harsh. In hindsight, we all know that if we'd got to half time, then we'd have got a 0-0, but it wasn't to be. Blaming Geoff for a goal in a game where we had 9 fucking men is ridiculous and you know it! Of course he won't, because it won't fit the narrative
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Post by hartzchoco on Sept 5, 2015 5:38:50 GMT
I must be honest: I hope Stoke sell Geoff in the January window. I've grown tired with the bayerns and Pejices of the world. There's little Geoff can do to win over Stoke supporters, his every move is criticised and belabored. He's done all that has been asked of him, has filled in more than capably at centre half, and still is the most underappreciated player I can remember in years. Move on, Geoffrey. Find a club that wants you. Sadly, I've actually thought that myself. I'd miss him, but it would be nice to see him perform for a team that appreciates him. He's done everything asked of him here, and has never said a negative word. Watching him get slagged off on here is so frustrating. And its constant. I don't get it.
Edit: Actually, I think I do get it. Unfortunately.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 5, 2015 6:01:22 GMT
I must be honest: I hope Stoke sell Geoff in the January window. I've grown tired with the bayerns and Pejices of the world. There's little Geoff can do to win over Stoke supporters, his every move is criticised and belabored. He's done all that has been asked of him, has filled in more than capably at centre half, and still is the most underappreciated player I can remember in years. Move on, Geoffrey. Find a club that wants you. Couldn't we sell bayernoatcake and the other Cameron haters instead?
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Post by hartzchoco on Sept 5, 2015 6:03:03 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? Sadly, it isn't silly. Geoff is demonized far more than any other player on our squad. Yet he plays his ass off, fights incredibly hard for our club, and is quality. Yes, quality. Not a 'shit footballer'. If he wasn't from the States, he wouldn't get this disproportionate amount of abuse. Anyone who says different, and they will, is full of shit.
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Post by hartzchoco on Sept 5, 2015 6:25:09 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? i agree with lots that you have to say there, but would add that there is a very devoted set of posters on here that do regularly slate him at any opportunity, and it's a bit silly to put that on those that think he can do no wrong. Also, I'd like to add the view it our giving as balanced I s one view, and really aligned to your previous posts on him being an athlete but not really a footballer. It's a view that some share, and some do not, but not really any more balanced than that of anyone else's, be it bayernoatcake or metalhead. It's not something with Cameron that we don't see with other players. The most prolific posters seem to have pretty set in stone opinions about players and cameron is not immune. About the only players to be mostly immune to this are Shawcross and Whelan, but they have their @thelastoftheidk and whydelilah. Walters, Wilson, Adam, Ireland, Diouf, Arnie, Bardsley, MVG, all have their detractors. Nzonzi did too, despite being head and shoulders above everyone else for player of the season. It's just something I think will always be a part of the oatcake where people say a player is shit and then have to defend their evaluation. Sometimes it's clear like with Shea and teixiera, they are not premier league quality footballers, but with all the others I've mentioned I think it is clear that they are good enough to cut it at this level. The anti-American stuff is pretty silly, both when it comes to the accusations of being anti-American and the trolling. I'm from the U.S. But could care less if Cameron played for stoke or not. While he is a stoke player though I hope he plays well, and with how shitty the U.S. Defence has been recently I was happy that he was brought back into the national team. With all the assholes we have over here though I'd probably not like yanks if I was born as something else. A big reason why I follow the premier league and not MLS, and like football in general is tied to my identity as a self-hating American. Anyway back to Geoff, I was not too thrilled when he joined stoke, yet have grown to think he is and has been a decent player for us. He is not the same type of player as nzonzi, or as good of a centre-back as Ryan or Huth when they were at their best. But, I do think he has been our best all-around right back in the premier league, although Johnson could potentially be even better for us. And I think he has done well in the middle of defence to start this season, but not enough to cause Ryan to lose his place. He's a versatile player, not as bad with the ball at his feet as many on here claim, and not as good in the air as he should be with his tall stature. Any way that's my view, not a balanced or final view, just one opinion among many on here. Seriously? Damn, brother. I had no idea. I've always respected your posts. But I have to admit you lost me at 'assholes' and 'self-hating American'. C'mon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 6:58:18 GMT
As bad as people think Cameron is at centre half (and I don't believe he is a centre half) he has been the better player so far this season out of our centre back pairing.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2015 7:08:46 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? Sadly, it isn't silly. Geoff is demonized far more than any other player on our squad. Yet he plays his ass off, fights incredibly hard for our club, and is quality. Yes, quality. Not a 'shit footballer'. If he wasn't from the States, he wouldn't get this disproportionate amount of abuse. Anyone who says different, and they will, is full of shit. I'm pretty sure its got nothing at all to do with his nationality. I think Geoff, for the most part, is playing very well so far this season and on the back of his performances pre season, he deserved his starting spot in the team. It is naive to say he's perfect though. There are obvious flaws in his game and he is guilty of making goal costing mistakes in way too many games. As a defender, that simply can't happen. His time with us follows a usual path. Comes into the team and does well for 2-3 games. Opposition suss him out and his performances deteriorate, mistakes increase and he is dropped. The whole cycle then repeats itself again and month or so later when he finds himself back in the team. I've never been convinced that Geoff actually understands the game. He plays it and plays it well at times, but does he understand it. Does he truly know the various positions he can play in? Anyhow, criticism this season is harsh in my opinion. He was dire at Norwich, along with many others but that aside he's been playing well. One thing I will say in his defence, is that muniesa makes many of the same mistakes that Cameron makes yet escapes pretty much without criticism. In the early part of the season, Geoff's mistakes, if you want to consider them as such, have led to goals for the opposition whereas muniesa's, to date, haven't mainly because butland has managed to bail him out. Had it been the other way around, it would be interesting to see if muniesa was micro analysed in the way some do with Geoff. I suspect we all know the answer!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 7:38:56 GMT
Sadly, it isn't silly. Geoff is demonized far more than any other player on our squad. Yet he plays his ass off, fights incredibly hard for our club, and is quality. Yes, quality. Not a 'shit footballer'. If he wasn't from the States, he wouldn't get this disproportionate amount of abuse. Anyone who says different, and they will, is full of shit. I'm pretty sure its got nothing at all to do with his nationality. I think Geoff, for the most part, is playing very well so far this season and on the back of his performances pre season, he deserved his starting spot in the team. It is naive to say he's perfect though. There are obvious flaws in his game and he is guilty of making goal costing mistakes in way too many games. As a defender, that simply can't happen. His time with us follows a usual path. Comes into the team and does well for 2-3 games. Opposition suss him out and his performances deteriorate, mistakes increase and he is dropped. The whole cycle then repeats itself again and month or so later when he finds himself back in the team. I've never been convinced that Geoff actually understands the game. He plays it and plays it well at times, but does he understand it. Does he truly know the various positions he can play in? Anyhow, criticism this season is harsh in my opinion. He was dire at Norwich, along with many others but that aside he's been playing well. One thing I will say in his defence, is that muniesa makes many of the same mistakes that Cameron makes yet escapes pretty much without criticism. In the early part of the season, Geoff's mistakes, if you want to consider them as such, have led to goals for the opposition whereas muniesa's, to date, haven't mainly because butland has managed to bail him out. Had it been the other way around, it would be interesting to see if muniesa was micro analysed in the way some do with Geoff. I suspect we all know the answer! Good assessment that is mate. Muniesa has been all over the place this season but escapes much criticism. The only conclusion I can come to is that one is Spanish and one is American,and the pre conceived ideas of the abilities of players from these two nations.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Sept 5, 2015 8:31:04 GMT
I'm pretty sure its got nothing at all to do with his nationality. I think Geoff, for the most part, is playing very well so far this season and on the back of his performances pre season, he deserved his starting spot in the team. It is naive to say he's perfect though. There are obvious flaws in his game and he is guilty of making goal costing mistakes in way too many games. As a defender, that simply can't happen. His time with us follows a usual path. Comes into the team and does well for 2-3 games. Opposition suss him out and his performances deteriorate, mistakes increase and he is dropped. The whole cycle then repeats itself again and month or so later when he finds himself back in the team. I've never been convinced that Geoff actually understands the game. He plays it and plays it well at times, but does he understand it. Does he truly know the various positions he can play in? Anyhow, criticism this season is harsh in my opinion. He was dire at Norwich, along with many others but that aside he's been playing well. One thing I will say in his defence, is that muniesa makes many of the same mistakes that Cameron makes yet escapes pretty much without criticism. In the early part of the season, Geoff's mistakes, if you want to consider them as such, have led to goals for the opposition whereas muniesa's, to date, haven't mainly because butland has managed to bail him out. Had it been the other way around, it would be interesting to see if muniesa was micro analysed in the way some do with Geoff. I suspect we all know the answer! Good assessment that is mate. Muniesa has been all over the place this season but escapes much criticism. The only conclusion I can come to is that one is Spanish and one is American,and the pre conceived ideas of the abilities of players from these two nations. It's the credit in the bank thing. Muniesa has been largely excellent since he's been there. The same old issues are there with Geoff. Also, we keep hearing what he isn't - he's not a right back, he's not a centre back - what is he exactly? And why doesn't the manager want to play him in whatever his 'best' position is? I agree Muniesa has had a poor start to the season.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 5, 2015 8:39:43 GMT
Sadly, it isn't silly. Geoff is demonized far more than any other player on our squad. Yet he plays his ass off, fights incredibly hard for our club, and is quality. Yes, quality. Not a 'shit footballer'. If he wasn't from the States, he wouldn't get this disproportionate amount of abuse. Anyone who says different, and they will, is full of shit. I'm pretty sure its got nothing at all to do with his nationality. I think Geoff, for the most part, is playing very well so far this season and on the back of his performances pre season, he deserved his starting spot in the team. It is naive to say he's perfect though. There are obvious flaws in his game and he is guilty of making goal costing mistakes in way too many games. As a defender, that simply can't happen. His time with us follows a usual path. Comes into the team and does well for 2-3 games. Opposition suss him out and his performances deteriorate, mistakes increase and he is dropped. The whole cycle then repeats itself again and month or so later when he finds himself back in the team. I've never been convinced that Geoff actually understands the game. He plays it and plays it well at times, but does he understand it. Does he truly know the various positions he can play in? Anyhow, criticism this season is harsh in my opinion. He was dire at Norwich, along with many others but that aside he's been playing well. One thing I will say in his defence, is that muniesa makes many of the same mistakes that Cameron makes yet escapes pretty much without criticism. In the early part of the season, Geoff's mistakes, if you want to consider them as such, have led to goals for the opposition whereas muniesa's, to date, haven't mainly because butland has managed to bail him out. Had it been the other way around, it would be interesting to see if muniesa was micro analysed in the way some do with Geoff. I suspect we all know the answer! Has any poster said Cameron is perfect? If they have, then it passed me by. Memo to self - must read more posts in greater detail!
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Post by chiefdelilah on Sept 5, 2015 8:48:46 GMT
I'm pretty sure its got nothing at all to do with his nationality. I think Geoff, for the most part, is playing very well so far this season and on the back of his performances pre season, he deserved his starting spot in the team. It is naive to say he's perfect though. There are obvious flaws in his game and he is guilty of making goal costing mistakes in way too many games. As a defender, that simply can't happen. His time with us follows a usual path. Comes into the team and does well for 2-3 games. Opposition suss him out and his performances deteriorate, mistakes increase and he is dropped. The whole cycle then repeats itself again and month or so later when he finds himself back in the team. I've never been convinced that Geoff actually understands the game. He plays it and plays it well at times, but does he understand it. Does he truly know the various positions he can play in? Anyhow, criticism this season is harsh in my opinion. He was dire at Norwich, along with many others but that aside he's been playing well. One thing I will say in his defence, is that muniesa makes many of the same mistakes that Cameron makes yet escapes pretty much without criticism. In the early part of the season, Geoff's mistakes, if you want to consider them as such, have led to goals for the opposition whereas muniesa's, to date, haven't mainly because butland has managed to bail him out. Had it been the other way around, it would be interesting to see if muniesa was micro analysed in the way some do with Geoff. I suspect we all know the answer! Has any poster said Cameron is perfect? If they have, then it passed me by. Memo to self - must read more posts in greater detail! No but there are at least as many people who won't have it that he ever makes any mistakes as there are people who blame him for everything.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 5, 2015 8:52:08 GMT
Has any poster said Cameron is perfect? If they have, then it passed me by. Memo to self - must read more posts in greater detail! No but there are at least as many people who won't have it that he ever makes any mistakes as there are people who blame him for everything. Oh, yes, I quite agree - but I thought Johnno's reference which could be read as implying that some naive people thought he was perfect, was an unfair debating tactic! Smacked of Daily Mail journalism to me - get people concerned about a situation which does not exist.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2015 8:59:03 GMT
I'm pretty sure its got nothing at all to do with his nationality. I think Geoff, for the most part, is playing very well so far this season and on the back of his performances pre season, he deserved his starting spot in the team. It is naive to say he's perfect though. There are obvious flaws in his game and he is guilty of making goal costing mistakes in way too many games. As a defender, that simply can't happen. His time with us follows a usual path. Comes into the team and does well for 2-3 games. Opposition suss him out and his performances deteriorate, mistakes increase and he is dropped. The whole cycle then repeats itself again and month or so later when he finds himself back in the team. I've never been convinced that Geoff actually understands the game. He plays it and plays it well at times, but does he understand it. Does he truly know the various positions he can play in? Anyhow, criticism this season is harsh in my opinion. He was dire at Norwich, along with many others but that aside he's been playing well. One thing I will say in his defence, is that muniesa makes many of the same mistakes that Cameron makes yet escapes pretty much without criticism. In the early part of the season, Geoff's mistakes, if you want to consider them as such, have led to goals for the opposition whereas muniesa's, to date, haven't mainly because butland has managed to bail him out. Had it been the other way around, it would be interesting to see if muniesa was micro analysed in the way some do with Geoff. I suspect we all know the answer! Has any poster said Cameron is perfect? If they have, then it passed me by. Memo to self - must read more posts in greater detail! I wouldn't waste your time writing memo's to yourself. You just focus on being the boards resident pedant and pain in the arse. There are those that won't have a word said about Geoff and would have us believe he's the modern day pele. On the opposite side of the scale there are some who 'd have us believe he's the devil incarnate. Truth is he's a "jack of all trades master of none" who in reality, is useful to have in the squad but perhaps not quite good enough in any position to be considered a nailed on regular starter. Edit - I see chiefdelilah understood the point I was making!
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 5, 2015 9:06:32 GMT
Has any poster said Cameron is perfect? If they have, then it passed me by. Memo to self - must read more posts in greater detail! I wouldn't waste your time writing memo's to yourself. You just focus on being the boards resident pedant and pain in the arse. There are those that won't have a word said about Geoff and would have us believe he's the modern day pele. On the opposite side of the scale there are some who 'd have us believe he's the devil incarnate. Truth is he's a "jack of all trades master of none" who in truth, is useful to have in the squad but perhaps not quite good enough in any position to be considered a nailed on regular starter. As it happens I agree that Cameron is a useful "jack of all trades" player to have in the squad. And you have as much right to your opinions on his strengths and weaknesses as anyone. However I thought, and still think, that to suggest that ANYONE thinks he is perfect is, frankly, ridiculous hyperbole. You are usually better than that.
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Post by blackpoolred on Sept 5, 2015 9:53:46 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? Very good summary of the player
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2015 9:55:14 GMT
I wouldn't waste your time writing memo's to yourself. You just focus on being the boards resident pedant and pain in the arse. There are those that won't have a word said about Geoff and would have us believe he's the modern day pele. On the opposite side of the scale there are some who 'd have us believe he's the devil incarnate. Truth is he's a "jack of all trades master of none" who in truth, is useful to have in the squad but perhaps not quite good enough in any position to be considered a nailed on regular starter. As it happens I agree that Cameron is a useful "jack of all trades" player to have in the squad. And you have as much right to your opinions on his strengths and weaknesses as anyone. However I thought, and still think, that to suggest that ANYONE thinks he is perfect is, frankly, ridiculous hyperbole. You are usually better than that. Ask stokemanusa and hartzchoco!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 9:57:32 GMT
Good assessment that is mate. Muniesa has been all over the place this season but escapes much criticism. The only conclusion I can come to is that one is Spanish and one is American,and the pre conceived ideas of the abilities of players from these two nations. It's the credit in the bank thing. Muniesa has been largely excellent since he's been there. The same old issues are there with Geoff. Also, we keep hearing what he isn't - he's not a right back, he's not a centre back - what is he exactly? And why doesn't the manager want to play him in whatever his 'best' position is? I agree Muniesa has had a poor start to the season. Yeah you could be right and with Ryan alongside him Muniesa was and still is our best option there. The more fickle side of me sees it a bit differently where the criticism of Cameron comes from though but I could be miles off the mark and doing certain posters an injustice For me,Cameron is a right back first and a stand in utility man after that. He is a very useful member of our squad and we shouldn't underestimate the need for a player who can do a more than adequate job in a number of positions when needed. You could probably say he's a right back by default because he doesn't see himself as a full back,but in my opinion,at this level it is his best position. He does seem to be outed for special criticism though (and I'm not just on about Bayern, who goes way over the top) when other players have had much worse starts to the season but escape criticism regardless of how much credit they may have,which is always going to get people pulling the dreaded "agenda" card.
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Post by blackpoolred on Sept 5, 2015 10:07:43 GMT
Cameron his never a natural central defender and is a massive worry in that position, but he is true pro and hopefully will keep learning and improving. Hughes looks to have put is confidence in Cameron in the central role and as stated in an earlier thread, I think he has ever so slightly lost the plot with this one and his defence in general. With the current defence/mid setup I have to confess the Arsenal game does have me slightly cacking my pants. Koscielny aerial threat alone could cause us mayhem at corners/set pieces and the the lack of any decent protection from midfield could leave the back four and in particular Cam really exposed against some real quality opposition. I hope I am wrong but I cant see anything other than a good beating in this one I wasn't impressed with Arsenal against 10 man Newcastle. I was kind of thinking about our performance away to Norwich and thinking if we play the same formation against Arsenal with the same kind of defending that it could be a rather long night. I think he has to move Cameron from the central defensive position and move Wolly in to provide a bit aerial presence for this game. Also needs to drop Shakira for this one who is not fit(physically or match) and replace him with a bit of energy, maybe Cam can move to midfield. Will be interesting to see who he picks for the Arsenal game. For me, same setup as Norwich with VG in Centre Mid & Cam in Centre Defence = possible mauling
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Post by chiefdelilah on Sept 5, 2015 10:22:12 GMT
It's the credit in the bank thing. Muniesa has been largely excellent since he's been there. The same old issues are there with Geoff. Also, we keep hearing what he isn't - he's not a right back, he's not a centre back - what is he exactly? And why doesn't the manager want to play him in whatever his 'best' position is? I agree Muniesa has had a poor start to the season. Yeah you could be right and with Ryan alongside him Muniesa was and still is our best option there. The more fickle side of me sees it a bit differently where the criticism of Cameron comes from though but I could be miles off the mark and doing certain posters an injustice For me,Cameron is a right back first and a stand in utility man after that. He is a very useful member of our squad and we shouldn't underestimate the need for a player who can do a more than adequate job in a number of positions when needed. You could probably say he's a right back by default because he doesn't see himself as a full back,but in my opinion,at this level it is his best position. He does seem to be outed for special criticism though (and I'm not just on about Bayern, who goes way over the top) when other players have had much worse starts to the season but escape criticism regardless of how much credit they may have,which is always going to get people pulling the dreaded "agenda" card. What annoys me is the lack of balance. There have been at least two games this season where he's played general well but had a significant role in giving a goal away but to even mention the mistake gives rise to all this wailing and gnashing of teeth.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Sept 5, 2015 10:24:04 GMT
I wasn't impressed with Arsenal against 10 man Newcastle. I was kind of thinking about our performance away to Norwich and thinking if we play the same formation against Arsenal with the same kind of defending that it could be a rather long night. I think he has to move Cameron from the central defensive position and move Wolly in to provide a bit aerial presence for this game. Also needs to drop Shakira for this one who is not fit(physically or match) and replace him with a bit of energy, maybe Cam can move to midfield. Will be interesting to see who he picks for the Arsenal game. For me, same setup as Norwich with VG in Centre Mid & Cam in Centre Defence = possible mauling You want to drop Shaqiri?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 5, 2015 11:03:25 GMT
I wasn't impressed with Arsenal against 10 man Newcastle. I was kind of thinking about our performance away to Norwich and thinking if we play the same formation against Arsenal with the same kind of defending that it could be a rather long night. I think he has to move Cameron from the central defensive position and move Wolly in to provide a bit aerial presence for this game. Also needs to drop Shakira for this one who is not fit(physically or match) and replace him with a bit of energy, maybe Cam can move to midfield. Will be interesting to see who he picks for the Arsenal game. For me, same setup as Norwich with VG in Centre Mid & Cam in Centre Defence = possible mauling Shaqiri wasn't far off match fitness against West Brom and by the time of the Arsenal game he could have played internationals for Switzerland. If we don't play him against Arsenal we will deserve to lose. If he can't go beyond 70 minutes we bring a sub on, that's what subs are for.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 11:04:44 GMT
Yeah you could be right and with Ryan alongside him Muniesa was and still is our best option there. The more fickle side of me sees it a bit differently where the criticism of Cameron comes from though but I could be miles off the mark and doing certain posters an injustice For me,Cameron is a right back first and a stand in utility man after that. He is a very useful member of our squad and we shouldn't underestimate the need for a player who can do a more than adequate job in a number of positions when needed. You could probably say he's a right back by default because he doesn't see himself as a full back,but in my opinion,at this level it is his best position. He does seem to be outed for special criticism though (and I'm not just on about Bayern, who goes way over the top) when other players have had much worse starts to the season but escape criticism regardless of how much credit they may have,which is always going to get people pulling the dreaded "agenda" card. What annoys me is the lack of balance. There have been at least two games this season where he's played general well but had a significant role in giving a goal away but to even mention the mistake gives rise to all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. I think if it wasn't for Bayerns one man crusade against Geoffrey the debates would be a bit more balanced. He gets people's backs up with his constant criticism of him,and personally I think it's got to a point where he is enjoying it that much that he is going to keep it going
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Post by Olgrligm on Sept 5, 2015 11:10:57 GMT
Muniesa has been poor this season, I agree. He plays much better with an experienced figure alongside him to keep him in check. He forms a very effective partnership with Ryan, but alongside Wollsheid or Cameron he's always prone to a complete catastrophe. For me, at least, that was one of the big things behind the calls for an old hand to come in, so he hasn't really got away without criticism.
There's also the credit in the bank thing that Rob mentioned. Muniesa is a young player capable of excellence, but who's raw and in need of refinement. Cameron had a middling to poor season when he joined (he gets a pass for that because it was his first year in English football and it was a poor season all round) and a horribly error strewn season playing almost every game at right back under Hughes (and I can still remember the slavish devotees celebrating when Wilko gave a penalty away at Chelsea). He was replaced last season but found his way back into the team because his replacement was just as error prone. When he came back, there were a few decent performances and some horror shows. He was replaced again this season, which suggests that Hughes doesn't have a huge amount of faith in him.
On the whole, he gets credit when he plays well, but it looks like he's getting unfair criticism because the slavish devotees furiously shoot down any suggestion that a solid 7/10 performance wasn't the greatest right back performance ever seen. See the Newcastle game last season, where putting a cross into a dangerous area on the umpteenth attempt saw him hailed as a superb crosser - if you didn't acknowledge that it was a world class cross (it wasn't) then you were an anti-American bigot.
Oh, and I can absolutely guarantee that if he was English, Welsh or Scottish, the criticism that he gets on here would be much, much worse.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 5, 2015 14:42:38 GMT
i agree with lots that you have to say there, but would add that there is a very devoted set of posters on here that do regularly slate him at any opportunity, and it's a bit silly to put that on those that think he can do no wrong. Also, I'd like to add the view it our giving as balanced I s one view, and really aligned to your previous posts on him being an athlete but not really a footballer. It's a view that some share, and some do not, but not really any more balanced than that of anyone else's, be it bayernoatcake or metalhead. It's not something with Cameron that we don't see with other players. The most prolific posters seem to have pretty set in stone opinions about players and cameron is not immune. About the only players to be mostly immune to this are Shawcross and Whelan, but they have their @thelastoftheidk and whydelilah. Walters, Wilson, Adam, Ireland, Diouf, Arnie, Bardsley, MVG, all have their detractors. Nzonzi did too, despite being head and shoulders above everyone else for player of the season. It's just something I think will always be a part of the oatcake where people say a player is shit and then have to defend their evaluation. Sometimes it's clear like with Shea and teixiera, they are not premier league quality footballers, but with all the others I've mentioned I think it is clear that they are good enough to cut it at this level. The anti-American stuff is pretty silly, both when it comes to the accusations of being anti-American and the trolling. I'm from the U.S. But could care less if Cameron played for stoke or not. While he is a stoke player though I hope he plays well, and with how shitty the U.S. Defence has been recently I was happy that he was brought back into the national team. With all the assholes we have over here though I'd probably not like yanks if I was born as something else. A big reason why I follow the premier league and not MLS, and like football in general is tied to my identity as a self-hating American. Anyway back to Geoff, I was not too thrilled when he joined stoke, yet have grown to think he is and has been a decent player for us. He is not the same type of player as nzonzi, or as good of a centre-back as Ryan or Huth when they were at their best. But, I do think he has been our best all-around right back in the premier league, although Johnson could potentially be even better for us. And I think he has done well in the middle of defence to start this season, but not enough to cause Ryan to lose his place. He's a versatile player, not as bad with the ball at his feet as many on here claim, and not as good in the air as he should be with his tall stature. Any way that's my view, not a balanced or final view, just one opinion among many on here. Seriously? Damn, brother. I had no idea. I've always respected your posts. But I have to admit you lost me at 'assholes' and 'self-hating American'. C'mon. self-hating American is a joke and I should have put a after it. But, yeah the U.S. is a ridiculous place. The attitude that we are #1 in everything aka rampant nationalism, and the commodification of our own people and people around the world while claiming to be a land of freedom and opportunity are the biggest reasons why I said that. IMO there are lots of things that are very messed up about the U.S. domestically and internationally, just wouldn't want to bog down the weekly is Geoff good or bad thread with all the examples as to why.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 5, 2015 14:52:00 GMT
Right, on to Geoff... *sigh* There's a bit of a persecution complex among some posters on here when it comes to Cameron. He gets cut more slack than any other player on here, because he's got a very devoted fanbase. It's true that a lot of these are our American supporters, who are understandably fond of our only US player. They're also quite sensitive to any criticism of him. Everyone's very deeply entrenched and so I don't especially bother talking about Cameron very much any more - some are slavishly devoted to him, others are quite keen on him, others are more keen to fixate on his weaknesses. Nobody is changing their point of view any time soon because we've seen pretty much all there is to see of him. As for Geoff himself, he has his good and his bad (yes, really!) points. No doubt he's a good player to have around the squad. He's a good athlete, he can play in a number of positions and he seems to be a popular member of the squad. He's the sort of good egg that you don't mind having around the place. He has a number of attributes that are handy on the pitch, in that he has a good engine, he's reasonably good on the ball and he's an energetic player. In certain circumstances this allows him to come to the fore. Once we were down to nine men against West Brom and brought on Arnie, he really stepped up to the plate as we moved onto the front foot. That said... ...he's not a very good defender. He's not quite Danny Collins (will anybody ever break his record of being individually responsible for 38 goals in one season?) He tends to have a couple of very flashy, standout games (that are always massively overstated - see the bit about slavish devotion above) that win over a lot of supporters, but the cracks begin to show pretty quickly. Taking this season as an example, he had a good game at Liverpool, but has since found his level of performance at centre back plummeting through the floor. He wasn't solely responsible for Spurs' second goal, but he allowed himself to be pulled way out of position by Kane and failed to prevent him playing a good throughball. The defence completely collapsed against Norwich. He made a mistake similar to the one that Sidwell was crucified for in the aftermath of the Liverpool game, teeing up a succession of errors that allowed Luton to equalise in the last minute. He made a series of mistakes against West Brom that went unpunished, before he finally pulled off his usual trick of completely losing his man and allowing him to nod in a cross. That sort of lapse is also pretty typical of his performances at right back, which are flashy but lacking in substance. Why aren't other players subjected to this sort of critical analysis? Well, for one, the slavish devotion comes into play - if a group of posters are going to exalt every step he makes on the pitch, obviously other posters are going to point out any errors that he makes. Plus, as I said before, he gets off very lightly, especially in comparison to Wollscheid and Bardsley, the latter of whom gets hammered for, amongst other things, not being Geoff Cameron. As for this business of him being comparable to N'Zonzi, that's just fanciful, pie in the sky stuff. N'Zonzi was excellent, a dominant physical presence in the middle of the park, whose ability to seemingly freeze time when in possession was key to our transition in style of play. He wasn't perfect, as he bombed up the pitch in attack much more quickly than he jogged back down the pitch once we lost possession, but he was a damn good play. It's not a slight against Cameron to say that he's not up to that standard. He simply isn't. He's a decent but limited player who can do a job for a few games but who isn't a serious option for a period longer than that. The same goes for him at centre back and the same goes for him at right back. So there we have it. A balanced view. Nothing against Cameron per se, who seems a good type to have about the place, nor against the US (come on now, that's just silly), but an honest appraisal. Can we leave it at that now? Sadly, it isn't silly. Geoff is demonized far more than any other player on our squad. Yet he plays his ass off, fights incredibly hard for our club, and is quality. Yes, quality. Not a 'shit footballer'. If he wasn't from the States, he wouldn't get this disproportionate amount of abuse. Anyone who says different, and they will, is full of shit. Is he bollocks. I treat him like I've treated Wilson, Walters, Whitehead, Collins etc before him. You're paranoid beyond belief!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 5, 2015 14:54:50 GMT
What annoys me is the lack of balance. There have been at least two games this season where he's played general well but had a significant role in giving a goal away but to even mention the mistake gives rise to all this wailing and gnashing of teeth. I think if it wasn't for Bayerns one man crusade against Geoffrey the debates would be a bit more balanced. He gets people's backs up with his constant criticism of him,and personally I think it's got to a point where he is enjoying it that much that he is going to keep it going It's barely a crusade is it? I point stuff out, people get on my back because they feel like I treat him differently. I don't. I couldn't give a fuck about Geoff Cameron! Very paranoid and it's like they've forgotten I've treated Wilson, Walters, Whitehead etc exactly like this. It's not my fault he keeps making mistakes that lead to goals is it?
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