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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 8:54:55 GMT
Yeah and remember Harry's rule, he's open minded, tolerant and open to reasoned debate unless you show him disrespect. Quite what disrespect Brand has shown him I'm not sure. It's rather simple, as are all things in Agent Harry's purple world; you disrespect Agent Harry when you disagree with him. Nothing is more simple than your head Mr angry Very simple minded Only your opinion is correct and anyone that disagrees is wrong . Only in your simple mind of course
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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 9:02:20 GMT
Ay up Mr dunce I never said I took the media's word as gospel . I made it clear that I have very little respect for the biased media but there you go attempting to twist people's words again. Must try harder I'm afraid. Toby Green was a member of the Green Party that left due to anti semitism That comes from the horses mouth. I never said UKIP doesn't have racist members neither . Society is full of all kinds of people and that includes racists. Racists also exist in the Labour party aka Diane Abbott. If i use edge potters logic i would turn round and say "MAYBE its not true MAYBE they have an axe to grind" but unlike him and his ilk i dont need to clutch at straws. Racists exist in the Greens also. My point is that whatever dirt you can find on UKIP (there will be plenty) I can find equally as much based on the other parties but because you are a massive hypocrite you ignore these facts Unlucky boy. Must try harder Still voting UKIP so your crusade has failed - miserably
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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 9:29:29 GMT
I'm surprised how many intelligent people are supporting UKIP. It's a party of utter nonsense, created by the rich to support the interests of a rich minority - whilst throwing in a few dumb policies that are likely to appeal to the knee-jerk, nodding dog, Joe Public. I'm surprised they haven't said they'll bring back capital punishment. I'm surprised so many people who think they are more intelligent than ukip voters keep voting for more of the same Lab/Con every 5 year........you couldn't make it up......what does it take to learn yor lessons ukips policies have been fully costed and verified by an independant body.....unlike tory and labour's magic money and the majority of UKIp's policies are liked by by far more than just ukipers. and you just throw in capital punishment .....why not throw in killing disabled babies too Good post
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 11:24:30 GMT
Whenever I've got involved in a debate, I always where possible to ask for the evidence to back up an opinion that I disagree with and more often than not no evidence can be produced. There's no point having an opinion if, when questionned, you cannot successfully defend your position with facts/evidence. This is something you seem to have particular trouble with. If you can find me any evidence of where I've twisted anyones words I'm happy to discuss this with you. Good luck finding it. Funnily enough though to further prove you're a masive hypocrite lets look at something you said above. "Women do not have equality in Islam."That isn't what we were debating and you know it wasn't. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. You think you're clever by framing the argument in a different way but what you do is very transparent and you're not fooling anyone. And finally go ahead and find me any evidence in any debate I've had where I've been a hypocrite. Again good luck finding it Nah. I'm right you are wrong. You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media. Toby Green is a former member of the Green Party that left due to anti semitism but that doesn't suit your agenda. You ask for 'evidence' for obvious things. It's like me asking for evidence that oxygen exists. The evidence is there if you can be bothered to look for it. There is no way I'm sitting there trawling through the internet to find evidence just for you and your left wing cronies to back track, twist what has been said and make excuses which is what you constantly do. You that by going round in circles that that some how proves your point. It doesn't. Women are not treated equally in Islam You have lost this argument Wow, just wow. It's impossible to have lost an argument when its not even an argument I'm having with you, I made it crystal clear above but I'll repeat myself. You are saying; "Women are not treated equally in Islam" That isn't what we were debating and you know it wasn't. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. You think you're clever by framing the argument in a different way but what you do is very transparent and you're not fooling anyone. You've also said; "You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media."First of all those two sentances directly contradict each other. I clearly provide evidence however you just deem it 'biased', the links I normally post have things like statistics and opinions from experts in their relevant field so you can't just dismiss any evidence I provide as 'biased media nonsense'. I don't ask for evidence for obvious things at all, I ask for evidence because actually I can't find any so if you could helpfully provide with your sources of evidence I'll happily consider your arguments. Embarssingly you can't provide any evidence because there isn't any. If there is please share it just to shut me up and definitvely win the debate. Until you provide evidence that counters my arguments you cannot possibly have won an argument. And finally I've asked you to provide evidence of where I've been hypocritical in argument, you don't even have to 'trawl' through the internet to do that you only need to come up with examples of where I've been hypocritical. Good luck finding any examples. Also please show me examples of where I've twisted anyones words, again if there is evidence it shouldn't be too hard to find
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 11:28:24 GMT
How are any of the other parties going to reduce energy bills. The UKIP political party broadcast that Brand comments on refers to two things, a pledge to reduce energy bills and, of course, immigration. For them to include these in the broadcast they obviously feel these are the policies that separate them from the other parties. So, how are UKIP going to reduce energy bills? By cutting off immigrants' gas supplies. It will save £27 Squillion.
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Post by partickpotter on May 5, 2015 11:43:11 GMT
Nah. I'm right you are wrong. You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media. Toby Green is a former member of the Green Party that left due to anti semitism but that doesn't suit your agenda. You ask for 'evidence' for obvious things. It's like me asking for evidence that oxygen exists. The evidence is there if you can be bothered to look for it. There is no way I'm sitting there trawling through the internet to find evidence just for you and your left wing cronies to back track, twist what has been said and make excuses which is what you constantly do. You that by going round in circles that that some how proves your point. It doesn't. Women are not treated equally in Islam You have lost this argument Wow, just wow. It's impossible to have lost an argument when its not even an argument I'm having with you, I made it crystal clear above but I'll repeat myself. You are saying; "Women are not treated equally in Islam" That isn't what we were debating and you know it wasn't. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. You think you're clever by framing the argument in a different way but what you do is very transparent and you're not fooling anyone. You've also said; "You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media."First of all those two sentances directly contradict each other. I clearly provide evidence however you just deem it 'biased', the links I normally post have things like statistics and opinions from experts in their relevant field so you can't just dismiss any evidence I provide as 'biased media nonsense'. I don't ask for evidence for obvious things at all, I ask for evidence because actually I can't find any so if you could helpfully provide with your sources of evidence I'll happily consider your arguments. Embarssingly you can't provide any evidence because there isn't any. If there is please share it just to shut me up and definitvely win the debate. Until you provide evidence that counters my arguments you cannot possibly have won an argument. And finally I've asked you to provide evidence of where I've been hypocritical in argument, you don't even have to 'trawl' through the internet to do that you only need to come up with examples of where I've been hypocritical. Good luck finding any examples. Also please show me examples of where I've twisted anyones words, again if there is evidence it shouldn't be too hard to find Agent Harry is demonstrating the classic signs of projection. Rationale argument does not work. Or being polite. In fact, nothing works. There is no hope.
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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 12:11:40 GMT
Nah. I'm right you are wrong. You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media. Toby Green is a former member of the Green Party that left due to anti semitism but that doesn't suit your agenda. You ask for 'evidence' for obvious things. It's like me asking for evidence that oxygen exists. The evidence is there if you can be bothered to look for it. There is no way I'm sitting there trawling through the internet to find evidence just for you and your left wing cronies to back track, twist what has been said and make excuses which is what you constantly do. You that by going round in circles that that some how proves your point. It doesn't. Women are not treated equally in Islam You have lost this argument Wow, just wow. It's impossible to have lost an argument when its not even an argument I'm having with you, I made it crystal clear above but I'll repeat myself. You are saying; "Women are not treated equally in Islam" That isn't what we were debating and you know it wasn't. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. You think you're clever by framing the argument in a different way but what you do is very transparent and you're not fooling anyone. You've also said; "You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media."First of all those two sentances directly contradict each other. I clearly provide evidence however you just deem it 'biased', the links I normally post have things like statistics and opinions from experts in their relevant field so you can't just dismiss any evidence I provide as 'biased media nonsense'. I don't ask for evidence for obvious things at all, I ask for evidence because actually I can't find any so if you could helpfully provide with your sources of evidence I'll happily consider your arguments. Embarssingly you can't provide any evidence because there isn't any. If there is please share it just to shut me up and definitvely win the debate. Until you provide evidence that counters my arguments you cannot possibly have won an argument. And finally I've asked you to provide evidence of where I've been hypocritical in argument, you don't even have to 'trawl' through the internet to do that you only need to come up with examples of where I've been hypocritical. Good luck finding any examples. Also please show me examples of where I've twisted anyones words, again if there is evidence it shouldn't be too hard to find I'm not going to even bother reading all that mate . All ill say is I hope you are convincing yourself because you certainly aren't convincing me. You must be really young because your insecurities are making you looking very silly. Your lack of confidence is why you are desperate for my approval. You won't get my approval. You are fighting a losing battle. You lie , and you twist people's words. You take things out of context and you purposely ignore the detail just so it suits your argument. You don't provide evidence of anything and your hypocrisy and double standards are plain for everyone to see. Instead of being a lazy bum do your own research. The obvious evidence that you seek is all around you and you know it is. You are fooling noone. The facts remain the same. Women are not treated equally in Islam and you have lost the argument. I'm still voting UKIP I still think you are wrong and I stand by everything I've said previously. Must try harder I'm afraid
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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 12:14:07 GMT
Wow, just wow. It's impossible to have lost an argument when its not even an argument I'm having with you, I made it crystal clear above but I'll repeat myself. You are saying; "Women are not treated equally in Islam" That isn't what we were debating and you know it wasn't. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. You think you're clever by framing the argument in a different way but what you do is very transparent and you're not fooling anyone. You've also said; "You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media."First of all those two sentances directly contradict each other. I clearly provide evidence however you just deem it 'biased', the links I normally post have things like statistics and opinions from experts in their relevant field so you can't just dismiss any evidence I provide as 'biased media nonsense'. I don't ask for evidence for obvious things at all, I ask for evidence because actually I can't find any so if you could helpfully provide with your sources of evidence I'll happily consider your arguments. Embarssingly you can't provide any evidence because there isn't any. If there is please share it just to shut me up and definitvely win the debate. Until you provide evidence that counters my arguments you cannot possibly have won an argument. And finally I've asked you to provide evidence of where I've been hypocritical in argument, you don't even have to 'trawl' through the internet to do that you only need to come up with examples of where I've been hypocritical. Good luck finding any examples. Also please show me examples of where I've twisted anyones words, again if there is evidence it shouldn't be too hard to find Agent Harry is demonstrating the classic signs of projection. Rationale argument does not work. Or being polite. In fact, nothing works. There is no hope. I've already said the same about you Mr angry. Projecting your own self image onto others is a tell tail sign that you know you hate yourself. Take my advice kid and accept yourself for what you are
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Post by followyoudown on May 5, 2015 13:37:16 GMT
Ay up Mr dunce I never said I took the media's word as gospel . I made it clear that I have very little respect for the biased media but there you go attempting to twist people's words again. Must try harder I'm afraid. Toby Green was a member of the Green Party that left due to anti semitism That comes from the horses mouth. I never said UKIP doesn't have racist members neither . Society is full of all kinds of people and that includes racists. Racists also exist in the Labour party aka Diane Abbott. If i use edge potters logic i would turn round and say "MAYBE its not true MAYBE they have an axe to grind" but unlike him and his ilk i dont need to clutch at straws. Racists exist in the Greens also. My point is that whatever dirt you can find on UKIP (there will be plenty) I can find equally as much based on the other parties but because you are a massive hypocrite you ignore these facts Unlucky boy. Must try harder Still voting UKIP so your crusade has failed - miserably You are getting beyond parody now Harry "both saying UKIP are racist in national newspapers must be absolute gospel if you take the word of a former member of the greens in a blog", please explain where I've twisted your words because I'm a bit of a dunce as you know. With regards to Toby Green and the Green Party never heard of him and don't care about the greens but anti-semitisim is clearly wrong, on many occasions you've stated the Greens are anti-semitic because of this and you value his words more as a former member or something, yet here we have two of your loyal party members saying UKIP are racist and you just shrug your shoulders and say every party has them (which no one denies) however these former members are saying it's more than just a few members if you read the links. Nige's local party chairman is ex-NF you've proudly talked about UKIP's policy on ex-BNP members yet here we have a guy acting as Nige's party chairman / agent who bypasses these rules because he joined before they came into effect, you really couldn't make this stuff up
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Post by salopstick on May 5, 2015 14:03:03 GMT
Mr 'don't vote' has said everyone vote Labour and then start the revolution! Only after the deadline for registering had passed
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 14:52:23 GMT
Wow, just wow. It's impossible to have lost an argument when its not even an argument I'm having with you, I made it crystal clear above but I'll repeat myself. You are saying; "Women are not treated equally in Islam" That isn't what we were debating and you know it wasn't. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. You think you're clever by framing the argument in a different way but what you do is very transparent and you're not fooling anyone. You've also said; "You provide no evidence of anything. At best you provide biased nonsense from the media."First of all those two sentances directly contradict each other. I clearly provide evidence however you just deem it 'biased', the links I normally post have things like statistics and opinions from experts in their relevant field so you can't just dismiss any evidence I provide as 'biased media nonsense'. I don't ask for evidence for obvious things at all, I ask for evidence because actually I can't find any so if you could helpfully provide with your sources of evidence I'll happily consider your arguments. Embarssingly you can't provide any evidence because there isn't any. If there is please share it just to shut me up and definitvely win the debate. Until you provide evidence that counters my arguments you cannot possibly have won an argument. And finally I've asked you to provide evidence of where I've been hypocritical in argument, you don't even have to 'trawl' through the internet to do that you only need to come up with examples of where I've been hypocritical. Good luck finding any examples. Also please show me examples of where I've twisted anyones words, again if there is evidence it shouldn't be too hard to find I'm not going to even bother reading all that mate . All ill say is I hope you are convincing yourself because you certainly aren't convincing me. You must be really young because your insecurities are making you looking very silly. Your lack of confidence is why you are desperate for my approval. You won't get my approval. You are fighting a losing battle. You lie , and you twist people's words. You take things out of context and you purposely ignore the detail just so it suits your argument. You don't provide evidence of anything and your hypocrisy and double standards are plain for everyone to see. Instead of being a lazy bum do your own research. The obvious evidence that you seek is all around you and you know it is. You are fooling noone. The facts remain the same. Women are not treated equally in Islam and you have lost the argument. I'm still voting UKIP I still think you are wrong and I stand by everything I've said previously. Must try harder I'm afraid "You lie , and you twist people's words. You take things out of context and you purposely ignore the detail just so it suits your argument. You don't provide evidence of anything and your hypocrisy and double standards are plain for everyone to see."What am I supposed to have lied about? What words have I twisted? What have I taken out context? What details am I ignoring? Must try harder? I'm not trying to wind you up, I'm asking you to try and prove your argument and you are failing to do so. Shall we try again 3rd time round now Harry? You don't seem to understand context, you say; "Women are not treated equally in Islam and you have lost the argument"Just to be clear I'm not arguing this point (because its a completely different argument entirely) like I've made it clear in my last two posts to you. What I am arguing is specifically about the segregatation of men and women in Islam and what that means. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear.
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Post by ukcstokie on May 5, 2015 15:16:18 GMT
Are women treated fairly under Islam?
From my own personal experience - I have to say not (at Uni - many years ago, the female Muslims were treated as a underclass by their male counterparts).
And I'll give you these passages from the Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).
Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"
Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye.
Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"
I'm not citing these as proof - as you can bring up some right nonsense from other holy books too (just spend 5 minutes on the Bible) - but they do show some of the sentiment.
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 15:35:26 GMT
Are women treated fairly under Islam? From my own personal experience - I have to say not (at Uni - many years ago, the female Muslims were treated as a underclass by their male counterparts). And I'll give you these passages from the Qur'an: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" I'm not citing these as proof - as you can bring up some right nonsense from other holy books too (just spend 5 minutes on the Bible) - but they do show some of the sentiment. Like I keep telling Harry what you are referring to is a completely different debate/argument to what I'm saying which is; The segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear.
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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 17:02:41 GMT
Ay up Mr dunce I never said I took the media's word as gospel . I made it clear that I have very little respect for the biased media but there you go attempting to twist people's words again. Must try harder I'm afraid. Toby Green was a member of the Green Party that left due to anti semitism That comes from the horses mouth. I never said UKIP doesn't have racist members neither . Society is full of all kinds of people and that includes racists. Racists also exist in the Labour party aka Diane Abbott. If i use edge potters logic i would turn round and say "MAYBE its not true MAYBE they have an axe to grind" but unlike him and his ilk i dont need to clutch at straws. Racists exist in the Greens also. My point is that whatever dirt you can find on UKIP (there will be plenty) I can find equally as much based on the other parties but because you are a massive hypocrite you ignore these facts Unlucky boy. Must try harder Still voting UKIP so your crusade has failed - miserably You are getting beyond parody now Harry "both saying UKIP are racist in national newspapers must be absolute gospel if you take the word of a former member of the greens in a blog", please explain where I've twisted your words because I'm a bit of a dunce as you know. With regards to Toby Green and the Green Party never heard of him and don't care about the greens but anti-semitisim is clearly wrong, on many occasions you've stated the Greens are anti-semitic because of this and you value his words more as a former member or something, yet here we have two of your loyal party members saying UKIP are racist and you just shrug your shoulders and say every party has them (which no one denies) however these former members are saying it's more than just a few members if you read the links. Nige's local party chairman is ex-NF you've proudly talked about UKIP's policy on ex-BNP members yet here we have a guy acting as Nige's party chairman / agent who bypasses these rules because he joined before they came into effect, you really couldn't make this stuff up You do care about the Greens and you do know who Toby Green is and his word means more than yours. I stand by what I say nothing has changed and I'm still voting ukip Your mission has failed
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Post by stokeharry on May 5, 2015 17:06:18 GMT
I'm not going to even bother reading all that mate . All ill say is I hope you are convincing yourself because you certainly aren't convincing me. You must be really young because your insecurities are making you looking very silly. Your lack of confidence is why you are desperate for my approval. You won't get my approval. You are fighting a losing battle. You lie , and you twist people's words. You take things out of context and you purposely ignore the detail just so it suits your argument. You don't provide evidence of anything and your hypocrisy and double standards are plain for everyone to see. Instead of being a lazy bum do your own research. The obvious evidence that you seek is all around you and you know it is. You are fooling noone. The facts remain the same. Women are not treated equally in Islam and you have lost the argument. I'm still voting UKIP I still think you are wrong and I stand by everything I've said previously. Must try harder I'm afraid "You lie , and you twist people's words. You take things out of context and you purposely ignore the detail just so it suits your argument. You don't provide evidence of anything and your hypocrisy and double standards are plain for everyone to see."What am I supposed to have lied about? What words have I twisted? What have I taken out context? What details am I ignoring? Must try harder? I'm not trying to wind you up, I'm asking you to try and prove your argument and you are failing to do so. Shall we try again 3rd time round now Harry? You don't seem to understand context, you say; "Women are not treated equally in Islam and you have lost the argument"Just to be clear I'm not arguing this point (because its a completely different argument entirely) like I've made it clear in my last two posts to you. What I am arguing is specifically about the segregatation of men and women in Islam and what that means. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. Another long winded reply that I can't be arsed to read. Same old drivel that we've been over time n time again. Racial segregation is wrong and so is gender segregation. It's unequal and has no place in western countries I stand by everything I say. Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Women are not equal within Islam and it's still in the dark ages. You twist people's words you tell half truths and you take things out of context. You think it's ok for certain people to do certain things but not for others. You don't know how to debate without resorting to insults and you have provided no evidence of anything. It's seriously a discussion that you will not win. You may as well try and debate with someone else mate because I stand by everything I say. You haven't proven a thing. You have one set of standards for certain groups but another set of standards for those that dont agree with you and that's why I don't respect what you have to say .You ignore facts and pretend that you are missing the point when in reality you know exactly what you are Must try harder EP
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Post by crapslinger on May 5, 2015 17:36:15 GMT
Are women treated fairly under Islam? From my own personal experience - I have to say not (at Uni - many years ago, the female Muslims were treated as a underclass by their male counterparts). And I'll give you these passages from the Qur'an: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" I'm not citing these as proof - as you can bring up some right nonsense from other holy books too (just spend 5 minutes on the Bible) - but they do show some of the sentiment. Like I keep telling Harry what you are referring to is a completely different debate/argument to what I'm saying which is; The segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. How does Islam feel about it's followers raping white children in the UK, they do not feel segregation is the way to go when they are buried taters deep in some 13 year old girls arse do they while her tongue is nailed to a table, then the rest of the gang repeat their disgusting depraved acts, fucking paedophile scum.
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 17:50:29 GMT
"You lie , and you twist people's words. You take things out of context and you purposely ignore the detail just so it suits your argument. You don't provide evidence of anything and your hypocrisy and double standards are plain for everyone to see."What am I supposed to have lied about? What words have I twisted? What have I taken out context? What details am I ignoring? Must try harder? I'm not trying to wind you up, I'm asking you to try and prove your argument and you are failing to do so. Shall we try again 3rd time round now Harry? You don't seem to understand context, you say; "Women are not treated equally in Islam and you have lost the argument"Just to be clear I'm not arguing this point (because its a completely different argument entirely) like I've made it clear in my last two posts to you. What I am arguing is specifically about the segregatation of men and women in Islam and what that means. You were going on a moral crusade to ensure that the men and women of Islam don't sit segregated at meetings preaching how wrong it is and that its due to inequality. I was arguing (very specifically and not in the broad sense that you seem to insist on framing the argument) that the segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. Another long winded reply that I can't be arsed to read. Same old drivel that we've been over time n time again. I stand by everything I say. Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Women are not equal within Islam and it's still in the dark ages. You twist people's words you tell half truths and you take things out of context. You think it's ok for certain people to do certain things but not for others. You don't know how to debate without resorting to insults and you have provided no evidence of anything. It's seriously a discussion that you will not win. You may as well try and debate with someone else mate because I stand by everything I say. You haven't proven a thing. You have one set of standards for certain groups but another set of standards for those that dont agree with you and that's why I don't respect what you have to say .You ignore facts and pretend that you are missing the point when in reality you know exactly what you are Must try harder EP You twist people's words you tell half truths and you take things out of context. You think it's ok for certain people to do certain things but not for others. You don't know how to debate without resorting to insults and you have provided no evidence of anything.There are no insults from me directed towards you in the 'long winded reply that you can't be arsed to read' that you've quoted me in Harry. I'm simply asking you to prove what you're saying and you're not doing it. You can keep saying this sort off stuff all you like but it doesn't make it true. Give me examples Harry, specific examples. You say (notice how I quote you all the time so that I'm not lying or twisting your words, people can see exactly what you've said); "Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Women are not equal within Islam and it's still in the dark ages."I'm not trying to dispute this with you, it is a completely separate debate to what we have been directly discussing. In the hodge hill labour rally thread you said; " Racial segregation is wrong and so is gender segregation" The section I've highlighted is what I'm debating with you, I'm not and never have been debating Islam treating women as 2nd class citizens, you are the only one debating this. I'm saying for the 4th time now. The segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. And just another clear point to make, how is it unequal when they are in the SAME room, attending the SAME rally as each other? Tell me where the inequality is there? If they were forced to attend separate meetings for men and women then that would be unequal, and if the men banned women from attending the meeting then that would also make it unequal, but none of these things happen. Here's some evidence for you too Harry. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6024629/Segregation-common-in-Islam.html (this is a well respected paper, nothing biased about it) www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hussein-kesvani/gender-segregation-muslim-women_b_4450492.htmlwww.newvision.co.ug/news/642087-why-muslim-women-and-men-sit-separately-in-mosques.htmlwww.onreligion.co.uk/the-segregation-debate/ (this is written by a muslim woman, you can't claim this is media bias) awaremuslim.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/gender-segregation-whats-all-fuss-about.html
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 17:54:35 GMT
Like I keep telling Harry what you are referring to is a completely different debate/argument to what I'm saying which is; The segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. How does Islam feel about it's followers raping white children in the UK, they do not feel segregation is the way to go when they are buried taters deep in some 13 year old girls arse do they while her tongue is nailed to a table, then the rest of the gang repeat their disgusting depraved acts, fucking paedophile scum. You make the mistake of thinking I agree with all aspects of Islam and I don't. I'm only making the very simple point that segregation between men and women is nothing to do with inequality. What you refer to is completely disgusting and unacceptable, it also happens in our culture by the way.
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 5, 2015 18:03:52 GMT
Are women treated fairly under Islam? From my own personal experience - I have to say not (at Uni - many years ago, the female Muslims were treated as a underclass by their male counterparts). And I'll give you these passages from the Qur'an: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" I'm not citing these as proof - as you can bring up some right nonsense from other holy books too (just spend 5 minutes on the Bible) - but they do show some of the sentiment. Like I keep telling Harry what you are referring to is a completely different debate/argument to what I'm saying which is; The segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. Thats all very interesting & if I were travelling around a muslim country my family would be sure to follow their customs. Whilst in this country though those who live or visit here should respect our values. If they want to treat women like second class citizens at home or down the mosque thats up to them but in public, segregation on sex or race is out of order and shame on labour for pandering to it.
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 18:14:50 GMT
Mr 'don't vote' has said everyone vote Labour and then start the revolution! Only after the deadline for registering had passed People who like what Brand has to say aren't all playing a game of 'Brand says'. I agree with a lot of what he's got to say, not because I worship him but because actually if you can put aside his obvious personality flaws his ideology is clearly very heavily influenced by one of the greatest and well-respected thinkers of our time Noam Chomsky and happens to be aligned with my own opinions.
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Post by salopstick on May 5, 2015 18:32:37 GMT
Only after the deadline for registering had passed People who like what Brand has to say aren't all playing a game of 'Brand says'. I agree with a lot of what he's got to say, not because I worship him but because actually if you can put aside his obvious personality flaws his ideology is clearly very heavily influenced by one of the greatest and well-respected thinkers of our time Noam Chomsky and happens to be aligned with my own opinions. his obvious personalities put off a lot of people from attempting to look at his ideology
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 18:37:03 GMT
People who like what Brand has to say aren't all playing a game of 'Brand says'. I agree with a lot of what he's got to say, not because I worship him but because actually if you can put aside his obvious personality flaws his ideology is clearly very heavily influenced by one of the greatest and well-respected thinkers of our time Noam Chomsky and happens to be aligned with my own opinions. his obvious personalities put off a lot of people from attempting to look at his ideology And yet he's still managed to get 10 million followers on Twitter and 1 million subscribers to 'The Trews'. Some people don't like his personality and I've got no qualms with that at all, each to their own.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:38:14 GMT
So ....there you have it ladies and gentleman . A man from the cultural hotbed of the Staffordshire moorlands advocating and appreciating Russell Brand .
In the meantime , Brand will continue to shout his mouth off to anyone who will listen and continue to scrounge a living ....not sure what that is ....but will continue his shitbag ways .
If ever there was an advert to deter traditional Labour supporters , then this fucker is your man . How can I say this ...?
Because I am one , I used to say the same about George Galloway ....and looked what happened to him.
The finest pair of egotistical conmen currently in the country ...
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:45:43 GMT
Are women treated fairly under Islam? From my own personal experience - I have to say not (at Uni - many years ago, the female Muslims were treated as a underclass by their male counterparts). And I'll give you these passages from the Qur'an: Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" Qur'an (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Qur'an (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" I'm not citing these as proof - as you can bring up some right nonsense from other holy books too (just spend 5 minutes on the Bible) - but they do show some of the sentiment. Gosh , there was me thinking Islam can be a bit backwards in some respects when compared to modern western values, but here they're talking about being able to come out of the closet, although they do spoil it almost straight away when they encourage blacking up with some dirt. So close and yet so far
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Post by edgepotter on May 5, 2015 18:47:18 GMT
So ....there you have it ladies and gentleman . A man from the cultural hotbed of the Staffordshire moorlands advocating and appreciating Russell Brand . In the meantime , Brand will continue to shout his mouth off to anyone who will listen and continue to scrounge a living ....not sure what that is ....but will continue his shitbag ways . If ever there was an advert to deter traditional Labour supporters , then this fucker is your man . How can I say this ...? Because I am one , I used to say the same about George Galloway ....and looked what happened to him. The finest pair of egotistical conmen currently in the country ... Out of interest mumf what do you think about Noam Chomsky?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:51:47 GMT
Knowing mumf he probably thinks he invented Pedigree Chom
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Post by mcf on May 5, 2015 18:53:44 GMT
his obvious personalities put off a lot of people from attempting to look at his ideology And yet he's still managed to get 10 million followers on Twitter and 1 million subscribers to 'The Trews'. Some people don't like his personality and I've got no qualms with that at all, each to their own. It's tough for any male to read about his ideology when we are all busy reading the telephone book - trying to find the telephone numbers of the 'Grandads' of all the birds we've nailed.
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 5, 2015 18:54:12 GMT
So ....there you have it ladies and gentleman . A man from the cultural hotbed of the Staffordshire moorlands advocating and appreciating Russell Brand . In the meantime , Brand will continue to shout his mouth off to anyone who will listen and continue to scrounge a living ....not sure what that is ....but will continue his shitbag ways . If ever there was an advert to deter traditional Labour supporters , then this fucker is your man . How can I say this ...? Because I am one , I used to say the same about George Galloway ....and looked what happened to him. The finest pair of egotistical conmen currently in the country ... Out of interest mumf what do you think about Noam Chomsky? He's a twat. :)
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:54:19 GMT
I've met him actually ....he's best mates with stance .
One is an eminent academic , whilst the other gets beaten by me every year ...
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Post by ukcstokie on May 5, 2015 18:58:04 GMT
Another long winded reply that I can't be arsed to read. Same old drivel that we've been over time n time again. I stand by everything I say. Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Women are not equal within Islam and it's still in the dark ages. You twist people's words you tell half truths and you take things out of context. You think it's ok for certain people to do certain things but not for others. You don't know how to debate without resorting to insults and you have provided no evidence of anything. It's seriously a discussion that you will not win. You may as well try and debate with someone else mate because I stand by everything I say. You haven't proven a thing. You have one set of standards for certain groups but another set of standards for those that dont agree with you and that's why I don't respect what you have to say .You ignore facts and pretend that you are missing the point when in reality you know exactly what you are Must try harder EP You twist people's words you tell half truths and you take things out of context. You think it's ok for certain people to do certain things but not for others. You don't know how to debate without resorting to insults and you have provided no evidence of anything.There are no insults from me directed towards you in the 'long winded reply that you can't be arsed to read' that you've quoted me in Harry. I'm simply asking you to prove what you're saying and you're not doing it. You can keep saying this sort off stuff all you like but it doesn't make it true. Give me examples Harry, specific examples. You say (notice how I quote you all the time so that I'm not lying or twisting your words, people can see exactly what you've said); "Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Women are not equal within Islam and it's still in the dark ages."I'm not trying to dispute this with you, it is a completely separate debate to what we have been directly discussing. In the hodge hill labour rally thread you said; " Racial segregation is wrong and so is gender segregation" The section I've highlighted is what I'm debating with you, I'm not and never have been debating Islam treating women as 2nd class citizens, you are the only one debating this. I'm saying for the 4th time now. The segregation of men and women in Islam has nothing to do with inequality, and that you can find countless blog/articles/discussions online where followers of Islam make this point pretty clear. And just another clear point to make, how is it unequal when they are in the SAME room, attending the SAME rally as each other? Tell me where the inequality is there? If they were forced to attend separate meetings for men and women then that would be unequal, and if the men banned women from attending the meeting then that would also make it unequal, but none of these things happen. Here's some evidence for you too Harry. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6024629/Segregation-common-in-Islam.html (this is a well respected paper, nothing biased about it) www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hussein-kesvani/gender-segregation-muslim-women_b_4450492.htmlwww.newvision.co.ug/news/642087-why-muslim-women-and-men-sit-separately-in-mosques.htmlwww.onreligion.co.uk/the-segregation-debate/ (this is written by a muslim woman, you can't claim this is media bias) awaremuslim.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/gender-segregation-whats-all-fuss-about.html Sorry I didn't realise that only you could define the points to debate? www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/as-a-muslim-i-oppose-gender-segregation-in-universities-but-its-advocates-have-every-right-to-their-opinion-9000088.html"Separate seating can reflect an idealisation of a Saudi-style system where men and women hardly interact outside of a familial setting. This de-facto disempowers women who are reduced to existing in a male universe. This is neither desirable, nor Islamic. But prohibiting separate seating doesn’t resolve underlying sexism, it merely forces its advocates off campus where the views expressed are less likely to be challenged. And what does it say of more progressive interpretations if the only way to encourage them is through legal imposition?" www.uokufa.edu.iq/journals/index.php/Kufa_Review/article/viewFile/31/pdf_23"So-called Islamic rules of segregation are supposed to preserve chastity in both men and women and therefore «protect» believers from temptation, evil and sin. Instead, it increases mutual ignorance about the other gender, maintains and promotes inequality and reinforces discrimination in societies that are already culturally patriarchal." What you present is one sided and simplistic. There is debate about this in both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities. I am assuming it is just an oversight on your behalf to start a thread asking supporters of other parties to justify their parties policies? Justify how they will be costed?
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