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Post by ukcstokie on Jul 22, 2015 14:18:50 GMT
Does MH really play a winger on the right? He's always played an out and out winger on the left (Arnie, Moses, Assidi), but on the right he seems to expect them more to tuck in and support the striker. Now that maybe because of the personnel involved (Wingie and SJW) are better doing that, or it could be that MH prefers somebody who can support down the right hand side, but took in to contribute more goals?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 14:19:35 GMT
Diouf is rubbish on the right too ... he'd probably tell you that to your face, if you asked him. If you're going to base your argument that they're both good enough to play on the right because they were our top two scorers last season, then we're going to be in for a long afternoon - and as I said earlier, it's probably better if we agree to disagree. As I've said before as someone who sits near the touchline on the half way line I've witnessed his joy at being on the right Ignoring the fact that both of our top scorers played on the right as a reason to say our right side is unfit for purpose is equally spurious as the facts tell you it is simply untrue.... As you know I think we need to upgrade both sides - its just that I'd bring in someone better than Arnie (Moses would be great), as we certainly need a player on that side anyway, before replacing a relatively reliable production route down the right - on this I agree we can choose to agree to disagree Ha ha - that's a completely different discussion altogether mate and I knew from the off that it'd end up there, hence my reluctance to even engage you from the beginning. Let's agree then that we both have very different opinions about what is required on BOTH wings and that those opinions are unlikely to change until at least the season has got well under way.
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Post by foster on Jul 22, 2015 14:20:00 GMT
Well, I don't base the entire contribution of a player purely on two types of stats. Add in number of dribbles, successful passes, tackles, distance covered, etc and it would be more realistic. As said earlier, Arnies performance stats are better than SJW and Odems combined. Based on my own view of the game I can recall Arnie and Moses taking it past quite a few players on the wing (Arnie) or cutting inside (Moses) and then linking up well with the midfield and opening up space. I don't recall that happening so much on the right side. Goals are what decide games not dribbles or any of the other measures you mention - I'm sure there are many players who constantly dribble down blind alleys before successfully passing back over their own half way line which have great numbers in those categories...How many you score and how many you set up surely have to be the key measure of a forward player? I disagree. All the other stuff they do impacts the flow of the game. Our right side is relatively rigid compared to the left with much less creativity. The reason our right side contributed the same in terms of goals/assists is 'partially' (see that pwingy), because teams probably setup to focus on stopping our play down the LW. Seeing it as more of a threat than the right.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 14:22:46 GMT
Does MH really play a winger on the right? He's always played an out and out winger on the left (Arnie, Moses, Assidi), but on the right he seems to expect them more to tuck in and support the striker. Now that maybe because of the personnel involved (Wingie and SJW) are better doing that, or it could be that MH prefers somebody who can support down the right hand side, but took in to contribute more goals? I think it's to do with the personnel available at the time mate. Until Moses got injured, he played Moses on the left and Arnie on the right. Neither Shaqiri or Yarmolenko are strikers.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 14:25:26 GMT
Goals are what decide games not dribbles or any of the other measures you mention - I'm sure there are many players who constantly dribble down blind alleys before successfully passing back over their own half way line which have great numbers in those categories...How many you score and how many you set up surely have to be the key measure of a forward player? I disagree. All the other stuff they do impacts the flow of the game. Our right side is relatively rigid compared to the left with much less creativity. The reason our right side contributed the same in terms of goals/assists is 'partially' (see that pwingy), because teams probably setup to focus on stopping our play down the LW. Seeing it as more of a threat than the right. And also because those players (Diouf and Walters) we're playing as forwards when they scored, neither of them played exclusively on the right but 'filled in' due to injury.
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Post by Kjones9 on Jul 22, 2015 14:28:33 GMT
I disagree. All the other stuff they do impacts the flow of the game. Our right side is relatively rigid compared to the left with much less creativity. The reason our right side contributed the same in terms of goals/assists is 'partially' (see that pwingy), because teams probably setup to focus on stopping our play down the LW. Seeing it as more of a threat than the right. And also because those players (Diouf and Walters) we're playing as forwards when they scored, neither of them played exclusively on the right but 'filled in' due to injury. I'd say Walters played the vast majority of his games last year on the right.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 14:39:14 GMT
And also because those players (Diouf and Walters) we're playing as forwards when they scored, neither of them played exclusively on the right but 'filled in' due to injury. I'd say Walters played the vast majority of his games last year on the right. Fancy going through the stats mate ... ie. what position he and Diouf were playing in when they scored each of their goals last season, not necessarily where they started the match but where they were playing at the time? And as Foster says, there is far, far more elements to the discussion than how many goals they scored. If we were considering them simply as strikers it would be a much bigger part of the equation.
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Post by foster on Jul 22, 2015 14:40:03 GMT
And also because those players (Diouf and Walters) we're playing as forwards when they scored, neither of them played exclusively on the right but 'filled in' due to injury. I'd say Walters played the vast majority of his games last year on the right. He hasn't said otherwise. He said they mainly scored when pushed forward into more central attacking roles.
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Post by foster on Jul 22, 2015 14:41:25 GMT
I'd say Walters played the vast majority of his games last year on the right. Fancy going through the stats mate ... ie. what position he and Diouf were playing in when they scored each of their goals last season, not necessarily where they started the match but where they were playing at the time? And as Foster says, there is far, far more elements to the discussion than how many goals they scored. If we were considering them simply as strikers it would be a much bigger part of the equation. I feel like Robs backup. And like your avatar
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Post by baystokie on Jul 22, 2015 14:46:19 GMT
Isn't this the Yarmalenko thread? Lol Seemingly not. Hasn't been for about two pages or more. Been taken over by a tactical discussion group
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Post by Kjones9 on Jul 22, 2015 14:48:44 GMT
I'd say Walters played the vast majority of his games last year on the right. Fancy going through the stats mate ... ie. what position he and Diouf were playing in when they scored each of their goals last season, not necessarily where they started the match but where they were playing at the time? And as Foster says, there is far, far more elements to the discussion than how many goals they scored. If we were considering them simply as strikers it would be a much bigger part of the equation. You can't exactly keep stats on what position a player is playing in when he scores can you? But he HAS played the vast majority of his games on the right (like someone else says, cutting in from that position). That's all you can go on surely? I know I'm not going to win an I don't see how I've got in the position of going through the merits of Jon Walters. Like I've said, we 100% need a right winger so we don't need to re-write last seasons efforts.
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Post by feynmann2 on Jul 22, 2015 14:49:17 GMT
As I've said before as someone who sits near the touchline on the half way line I've witnessed his joy at being on the right Ignoring the fact that both of our top scorers played on the right as a reason to say our right side is unfit for purpose is equally spurious as the facts tell you it is simply untrue.... As you know I think we need to upgrade both sides - its just that I'd bring in someone better than Arnie (Moses would be great), as we certainly need a player on that side anyway, before replacing a relatively reliable production route down the right - on this I agree we can choose to agree to disagree Ha ha - that's a completely different discussion altogether mate and I knew from the off that it'd end up there, hence my reluctance to even engage you from the beginning. Let's agree then that we both have very different opinions about what is required on BOTH wings and that those opinions are unlikely to change until at least the season has got well under way. No the first part is about facts - our right side performs at least as well as our left assuming you don't agree with March that goals are irrelevant ,you have nothing to base your assertion that our right side will be 'fucked' if we don't improve it on... The second is most definitely opinion and history has demonstrated that neither of us are 'easily persuaded' to change our view
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Post by wearestoke80 on Jul 22, 2015 14:51:00 GMT
I wouldn't consider Lennon as "top draw" He did well for Everton. Get him out of London and get his confidence back and we'll have a fantastic player on our hands, I'm sure he's only 27/28 too. He's shite we need much better
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Post by feynmann2 on Jul 22, 2015 14:51:47 GMT
Goals are what decide games not dribbles or any of the other measures you mention - I'm sure there are many players who constantly dribble down blind alleys before successfully passing back over their own half way line which have great numbers in those categories...How many you score and how many you set up surely have to be the key measure of a forward player? I disagree. All the other stuff they do impacts the flow of the game. Our right side is relatively rigid compared to the left with much less creativity. The reason our right side contributed the same in terms of goals/assists is 'partially' (see that pwingy), because teams probably setup to focus on stopping our play down the LW. Seeing it as more of a threat than the right. At the risk of sounding like TP I'll take productive over creative and I'm not certain anybody sets up to stop us playing down the left given that most of our goals came from the right....
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Post by dozintheseventees on Jul 22, 2015 14:53:21 GMT
What a very strange discussion. Am I understanding that we're saying Walters PLAYS on the wing but scores his goals in an STRIKER'S position?????? Isn't that exactly why we play wingers on their 'wrong' side so that they can come inside and be a threat on goal? Did Arnie and Moses score their goals from out wide or whilst in a striking position? Pardon me whilst I have a little lie down.
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Post by feynmann2 on Jul 22, 2015 14:53:22 GMT
I disagree. All the other stuff they do impacts the flow of the game. Our right side is relatively rigid compared to the left with much less creativity. The reason our right side contributed the same in terms of goals/assists is 'partially' (see that pwingy), because teams probably setup to focus on stopping our play down the LW. Seeing it as more of a threat than the right. And also because those players (Diouf and Walters) we're playing as forwards when they scored, neither of them played exclusively on the right but 'filled in' due to injury. Don't you think they 'filled in' due to the piss poor form of Arnie...
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usapotter
Academy Starlet
Simply a Potter from across the pond
Posts: 221
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Post by usapotter on Jul 22, 2015 14:53:25 GMT
Isn't this the Yarmalenko thread? Lol Seemingly not. Hasn't been for about two pages or more. Been taken over by a tactical discussion group I come to this thread for news, so far not a single bit of it has come today. Ffs make a tactical thread
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Post by slpmarc on Jul 22, 2015 14:55:53 GMT
Bringing the thread back to Yarmo for a second. Yarmo has not rejected us despite rumour he has
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 22, 2015 14:57:05 GMT
No new "news" regarding Yarmolenko but I've got some on Bert Smith, the hot prospect we've been in talks with Rochdale for, has decided a move to the unfashionable Premier League club would not be the best thing for his career. Sorry guys, looks like TS is having a bad summer.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jul 22, 2015 14:57:11 GMT
Bringing the thread back to Yarmo for a second. Yarmo has not rejected us despite rumour he has Can't be too long before we get sick of waiting on this one too though, Marc?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 22, 2015 14:57:20 GMT
Bringing the thread back to Yarmo for a second. Yarmo has not rejected us despite rumour he has Good news. Just very slow going? Are they still playing games
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 22, 2015 14:58:25 GMT
Bringing the thread back to Yarmo for a second. Yarmo has not rejected us yet, but will despite rumour he has.. Thought I'd post the truth
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 15:00:38 GMT
Ha ha - that's a completely different discussion altogether mate and I knew from the off that it'd end up there, hence my reluctance to even engage you from the beginning. Let's agree then that we both have very different opinions about what is required on BOTH wings and that those opinions are unlikely to change until at least the season has got well under way. No the first part is about facts - our right side performs at least as well as our left assuming you don't agree with March that goals are irrelevant ,you have nothing to base your assertion that our right side will be 'fucked' if we don't improve it on... The second is most definitely opinion and history has demonstrated that neither of us are 'easily persuaded' to change our view No because the 'facts' you are using I dispute. You're talking about the 'facts' that Diouf and Walters scored as STRIKERS and then making that fact apply to your argument about their ability as wingers. A lot of the goals that Diouf and Walters scored, was when they weren't even playing on the right wing and you seem to think its relevant to introduce these 'facts' in a discussion about when they were playing there. Yeah and i know that you think we need better than Arnie on the left - we have a difference opinion there, sure.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 15:02:00 GMT
What a very strange discussion. Am I understanding that we're saying Walters PLAYS on the wing but scores his goals in an STRIKER'S position?????? Isn't that exactly why we play wingers on their 'wrong' side so that they can come inside and be a threat on goal? Did Arnie and Moses score their goals from out wide or whilst in a striking position? Pardon me whilst I have a little lie down. No we're not Doz.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Jul 22, 2015 15:03:39 GMT
No the first part is about facts - our right side performs at least as well as our left assuming you don't agree with March that goals are irrelevant ,you have nothing to base your assertion that our right side will be 'fucked' if we don't improve it on... The second is most definitely opinion and history has demonstrated that neither of us are 'easily persuaded' to change our view No because the 'facts' you are using I dispute. You're talking about the 'facts' that Diouf and Walters scored as STRIKERS and then making that fact apply to your argument about their ability as wingers. A lot of the goals that Diouf and Walters scored, was when they weren't even playing on the right wing and you seem to think its relevant to introduce these 'facts' in a discussion about when they were playing there. Yeah and i know that you think we need better than Arnie on the left - we have a difference opinion there, sure. Paul, come on mate...Walters played very few games as a striker last season (hence my 'tongue in cheek' previous post).
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Post by feynmann2 on Jul 22, 2015 15:03:35 GMT
No the first part is about facts - our right side performs at least as well as our left assuming you don't agree with March that goals are irrelevant ,you have nothing to base your assertion that our right side will be 'fucked' if we don't improve it on... The second is most definitely opinion and history has demonstrated that neither of us are 'easily persuaded' to change our view No because the 'facts' you are using I dispute. You're talking about the 'facts' that Diouf and Walters scored as STRIKERS and then making that fact apply to your argument about their ability as wingers. A lot of the goals that Diouf and Walters scored, was when they weren't even playing on the right wing and you seem to think its relevant to introduce these 'facts' in a discussion about when they were playing there. Yeah and i know that you think we need better than Arnie on the left - we have a difference opinion there, sure. Who was playing on the right then if it wasn't Walters or Diouf??? I'm pretty certain that one or the other of them was out there in virtually every game....
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Post by baystokie on Jul 22, 2015 15:03:52 GMT
Bringing the thread back to Yarmo for a second. Yarmo has not rejected us yet, but will despite rumour he has.. Thought I'd post the truth Ah, the truth - I wondered when that fleeting, elusive item would emerge!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 15:04:27 GMT
And also because those players (Diouf and Walters) we're playing as forwards when they scored, neither of them played exclusively on the right but 'filled in' due to injury. Don't you think they 'filled in' due to the piss poor form of Arnie... I know you don't rate Arnie mate but they filled in due to Moses getting injured and Arnie moving to the left, leaving a hole on the right that needed to be covered.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 22, 2015 15:06:44 GMT
.. Thought I'd post the truth Ah, the truth - I wondered when that fleeting, elusive item would emerge!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 22, 2015 15:09:11 GMT
No because the 'facts' you are using I dispute. You're talking about the 'facts' that Diouf and Walters scored as STRIKERS and then making that fact apply to your argument about their ability as wingers. A lot of the goals that Diouf and Walters scored, was when they weren't even playing on the right wing and you seem to think its relevant to introduce these 'facts' in a discussion about when they were playing there. Yeah and i know that you think we need better than Arnie on the left - we have a difference opinion there, sure. Who was playing on the right then if it wasn't Walters or Diouf??? I'm pretty certain that one or the other of them was out there in virtually every game.... I don't understand the relevance of your question mate? Assuming you've understood my post ...
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