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Post by craig67 on Jun 18, 2014 0:44:46 GMT
Well , our golf club was packed with England supporters ....not too many Stokies though. That could play a part....they weren't as biased perhaps. I happen to agree with them. A solid performance none the less. Fegg Hayes golf club?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 18, 2014 0:47:35 GMT
Wilson hasn't played left back under Hughes either has he? He's just as capable of being a third choice right back as he's capable of being a third choice left back - it's churlish so suggest otherwise.
You don't like it because it buggers up your argument but giving Wilko a new contract AND signing Bardsley doesn't make a whole lot of sense if Cameron is going to be a major feature at right back next season, I (unlike you) haven't got an awful lot invested in an opinion on Cameron but rather mine is based on clear cut logic.
I'm surprised that you're so clear cut in your opinion on Diouf over Crouch - how much of Diouf have you actually seen?
Firstly, it's childish to assume that signing players means others are being moved or never going to feature. That for same reason a manager can't buy a player for a rotation or for depth he knows that he won't more than likely not play much. It doesn't bugger the argument Paul, infact it strengthens it. Why? We saved money on a equal quality RB (actually I beg a lil' less of one but it's irrelevant) kept our bench stable with Wilko for Cup runs, and have more Cover. We didn't go buy an expensive RB from the continent or Prem and so far haven't done so yet leading us to believe that Cameron is transferring out or not going to be a major feature for Stoke now is it? It makes loads of sense actually. Remember when Cameron had a shit game versus Chelsea and Hughes only had Wilko? Now he has Bardsley or Wilko. If he goes with Bardsley with Cameron his #2, it could be the otherway with Wilko third. I don't have anything vested in Cameron except that to dismiss him like most on here including yourself isn't clear cut logic... I infact was the only one who said he had a future here when TP brought him in at RB. Most scoffed and said he'd never start for us ever yet here we are. Are you going down that route now? Like the amazing know it alls who said Arnie was a "Lazy git" or that "Assaidi has no pace" or better yet the other oatcake classic "Muni is a weak spainard." Ohh I've been clear cut alot and first to say I missed that or was wrong, ie Whelan. But to answer your question, I lived in Holland near the German border and have followed BR Monchengladbach for a long time, I have seen Diouf live enough times in Germany to know he is worth more to us than Crouch now, but that doesn't mean Crouch can't play a role here as a target-man. At that time I also saw Assaidi in Holland for Heerveenen and he was exceptional at times as he was here. So I wouldn't say I'm vested, I just go with my gut and it's usually right and served me well in betting.
I didn't say childish, I said churlish.
If I look back, I'm pretty certain that I won't find any posts from yourself suggesting that we needed to sign an 'equality quality' (your words) right back to compete with Cameron for the right back berth AND that we also needed to give Wilko a new contract, well not until we actually did, yet now you're suggesting it all makes perfect sense.
If I look back, I might find some posts of yours claiming that people who suggested we needed to sign a new right back were actually wrong however!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 18, 2014 0:49:59 GMT
I see, so you're going with the Peter Coates (rather than Mark Hughes) just gave Wilko a new contract because he felt sorry for him having to leave the club argument as well then?
errr...no
So you're just going to ignore it completely then because it doesn't suit your argument?
Brilliant!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 18, 2014 0:55:05 GMT
In what way did Bardsley surprise Stoke?
We tried to sign him in the last January transfer window and we knew his contract was ending at Sunderland this summer?
They didn't think he would come running.
What makes you think that he wouldn't be interested?
So we made his club an offer for him in January and then ultimately signed him for free in the summer as soon as the window opened and you've come to the conclusion that all the time we thought he wouldn't come?
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 18, 2014 0:59:05 GMT
I don't really know why this is causing such a commotion it's fairly clear that Bardsley was brought in as first choice RB with Wilko and Wilson as cover freeing up Cameron to battle with Whelan for the holding midfield role.
I don't see what's complicated about it.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:04:01 GMT
Firstly, it's childish to assume that signing players means others are being moved or never going to feature. That for same reason a manager can't buy a player for a rotation or for depth he knows that he won't more than likely not play much. It doesn't bugger the argument Paul, infact it strengthens it. Why? We saved money on a equal quality RB (actually I beg a lil' less of one but it's irrelevant) kept our bench stable with Wilko for Cup runs, and have more Cover. We didn't go buy an expensive RB from the continent or Prem and so far haven't done so yet leading us to believe that Cameron is transferring out or not going to be a major feature for Stoke now is it? It makes loads of sense actually. Remember when Cameron had a shit game versus Chelsea and Hughes only had Wilko? Now he has Bardsley or Wilko. If he goes with Bardsley with Cameron his #2, it could be the otherway with Wilko third. I don't have anything vested in Cameron except that to dismiss him like most on here including yourself isn't clear cut logic... I infact was the only one who said he had a future here when TP brought him in at RB. Most scoffed and said he'd never start for us ever yet here we are. Are you going down that route now? Like the amazing know it alls who said Arnie was a "Lazy git" or that "Assaidi has no pace" or better yet the other oatcake classic "Muni is a weak spainard." Ohh I've been clear cut alot and first to say I missed that or was wrong, ie Whelan. But to answer your question, I lived in Holland near the German border and have followed BR Monchengladbach for a long time, I have seen Diouf live enough times in Germany to know he is worth more to us than Crouch now, but that doesn't mean Crouch can't play a role here as a target-man. At that time I also saw Assaidi in Holland for Heerveenen and he was exceptional at times as he was here. So I wouldn't say I'm vested, I just go with my gut and it's usually right and served me well in betting.
I didn't say childish, I said churlish.
If I look back, I'm pretty certain that I won't find any posts from yourself suggesting that we needed to sign an 'equality quality' (your words) right back to compete with Cameron for the right back berth AND that we also needed to give Wilko a new contract, well not until we actually did, yet now you're suggesting it all makes perfect sense.
If I look back, I might find some posts of yours claiming that people who suggested we needed a new right back were actually wrong however!
Spelling aside you get the points, "childish" and "equal quality." I am vested in Stoke because it is my team and when people spout stuff that is well basically not ture or simply opiniated and bereft of fact against defenders it irks me because I played as one a LB actually. If you look back you see me arguing infact Cameron is pretty good, but if we signed a better RB I was all for it. But have we? I never suggested we should buy another 28 year old RB either because it wasn't in my sights now was it? Did we sign Micah Richards or Gael Clichy or Pablo Zabaleta? No. We signed Phil Bardsley from Scotland. We all knew we needed another starting RB or another option. We necessarily didn't spend to get that world class RB but got a good deal for another option of the bench or as a starter in my opinion. You'll find post's defending Cameron versus Shotton or Wilko and that he's clinically de-rided for everything at Stoke that went bad at the back for Stoke. (even if it clearly wasn't true) I can honestly say I was right about him and that he'd be a force for our side and he was. I was against the wilko resigning you'll find. As were most thinking we were going to spend big because of the constant BS about Cameron being "worthless." Seeing as the Window isn't over but we've re-signed him and got phil it's looking like he's going to stay. Why would hughes want him? Well, infact he was at the end of the season one of the better RB's in the league consistently rated from 6.5 to 7 by Opta the official statistician of the Prem and FIFA. All managers use it and well Geoff was only a stand in. Imagine if he had an enitre off-season to only learn... Can you say that Paul? that you've stuck by a player because he's actually underrated by his own fans? or are you like everyone else who spouts opinions or keeps with talking points from others and jumps from the fence every once and a while? You think Cameron isn't worth more money now than when we bought him? Or is that to hard of a claim to stick by?
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:06:16 GMT
I don't really know why this is causing such a commotion it's fairly clear that Bardsley was brought in as first choice RB with Wilko and Wilson as cover freeing up Cameron to battle with Whelan for the holding midfield role. I don't see what's complicated about it. Yes because that is fact...
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 18, 2014 1:08:18 GMT
I don't really know why this is causing such a commotion it's fairly clear that Bardsley was brought in as first choice RB with Wilko and Wilson as cover freeing up Cameron to battle with Whelan for the holding midfield role. I don't see what's complicated about it. Yes because that is fact... It may not be a hard fact but I think it's fairly bleedin' obvious.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:08:36 GMT
They didn't think he would come running.
What makes you think that he wouldn't be interested?
So we made his club an offer for him in January and then ultimately signed him for free in the summer as soon as the window opened and you've come to the conclusion that all the time we thought he wouldn't come?
Never said he wasn't. He held off to negotiate in the summer his wages. His negotiations with the club were well, non existent. That's how. He came with a pen inked willing to join.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:10:35 GMT
Yes because that is fact... It may not be a hard fact but I think it's fairly bleedin' obvious. Really how so? If Whelan had such a good season why would we want to change that? Is it because it's obvious nzonzi is leaving? Or "blatantly obvious?"
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Post by Gods on Jun 18, 2014 1:12:08 GMT
Yes because that is fact... It may not be a hard fact but I think it's fairly bleedin' obvious. Midfield or bust for Cameron then despite the fact that he is palpably a better full back than Bardsley by any statistical measure you care to choose. It's still a strange one for me
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 18, 2014 1:14:30 GMT
It may not be a hard fact but I think it's fairly bleedin' obvious. Really how so? If Whelan had such a good season why would we want to change that? Is it because it's obvious nzonzi is leaving? Or "blatantly obvious?" So I totally imagined that he tried to sign Cattermole as competition for Whelan then? He's got cover for all midfield positions now Sidwell and N'Zonzi for the same position and Ireland and Adam for the same position.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:15:33 GMT
It may not be a hard fact but I think it's fairly bleedin' obvious. Midfield or bust for Cameron then despite the fact that he is palpably a better full back than Bardsley by any statistical measure you care to choose. It's still a strange one for me It's clutching at it in all reality' Some can't bar the fact that Cameron might be our RB next season and that Hughes wants him there. Because well they'll be shown to be well, wrong. All we know is Hearsay. Where's a daveviews cryptic bullshit when you need one! Who ever is starting RB for us I'll back because I don't care now that we have proper cover now.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 18, 2014 1:15:49 GMT
I didn't say childish, I said churlish.
If I look back, I'm pretty certain that I won't find any posts from yourself suggesting that we needed to sign an 'equality quality' (your words) right back to compete with Cameron for the right back berth AND that we also needed to give Wilko a new contract, well not until we actually did, yet now you're suggesting it all makes perfect sense.
If I look back, I might find some posts of yours claiming that people who suggested we needed a new right back were actually wrong however!
Spelling aside you get the points, "childish" and "equal quality." I am vested in Stoke because it is my team and when people spout stuff that is well basically not ture or simply opiniated and bereft of fact against defenders it irks me because I played as one a LB actually. If you look back you see me arguing infact Cameron is pretty good, but if we signed a better RB I was all for it. But have we? I never suggested we should buy another 28 year old RB either because it wasn't in my sights now was it? Did we sign Micah Richards or Gael Clichy or Pablo Zabaleta? No. We signed Phil Bardsley from Scotland. We all knew we needed another starting RB or another option. We necessarily didn't spend to get that world class RB but got a good deal for another option of the bench or as a starter in my opinion. You'll find post's defending Cameron versus Shotton or Wilko and that he's clinically de-rided for everything at Stoke that went bad at the back for Stoke. (even if it clearly wasn't true) I can honestly say I was right about him and that he'd be a force for our side and he was. I was against the wilko resigning you'll find. As were most thinking we were going to spend big because of the constant BS about Cameron being "worthless." Seeing as the Window isn't over but we've re-signed him and got phil it's looking like he's going to stay. Why would hughes want him? Well, infact he was at the end of the season one of the better RB's in the league consistently rated from 6.5 to 7 by Opta the official statistician of the Prem and FIFA. All managers use it and well Geoff was only a stand in. Imagine if he had an enitre off-season to only learn... Can you say that Paul? that you've stuck by a player because he's actually underrated by his own fans? or are you like everyone else who spouts opinions or keeps with talking points from others and jumps from the fence every once and a while? You think Cameron isn't worth more money now than when we bought him? Or is that to hard of a claim to stick by?
I haven't really offered an opinion on Cameron either way have I?
And I'm not particularly bothered about whether I've been wrong or right about players past or present, although and with respect, it seems to matter quite a lot to you.
Rather, by simply looking at the facts, ie. the signing of Bardsley and the new contract given to Wilko, it would suggest to me that Cameron won't be getting much game game time at right back next season, that's not a criticism of the player but just a simple observation, one I'm sure any impartial observer would come to if they were looking at the facts (and the facts alone) too.
At the end of the day Cameron might play a ton of games for us next season at right back but with the evidence we have at the moment that doesn't look likely.
We'll find out soon enough of course.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 18, 2014 1:16:57 GMT
If Bardsley doesn't start the first game of the season I'll eat Spencers cloth cap
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:18:07 GMT
Really how so? If Whelan had such a good season why would we want to change that? Is it because it's obvious nzonzi is leaving? Or "blatantly obvious?" So I totally imagined that he tried to sign Cattermole as competition for Whelan then? He's got cover for all midfield positions now Sizewell and N'Zonzi for the same position and Ireland and Adam for the same position. Are sure he didn't want to replace whelan or just for cover? lol Sizewll how much ITK are you? How do you know he doesn't want sidwell with nzonzi? or Cameron at RB? It's up to hughes mate all this placing because players are similar is cute.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 18, 2014 1:21:14 GMT
So I totally imagined that he tried to sign Cattermole as competition for Whelan then? He's got cover for all midfield positions now Sizewell and N'Zonzi for the same position and Ireland and Adam for the same position. Are sure he didn't want to replace whelan or just for cover? lol Sizewll how much ITK are you? How do you know he doesn't want sidwell with nzonzi? or Cameron at RB? It's up to hughes mate all this placing because players are similar is cute. I know everything I am the Oracle
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jun 18, 2014 1:25:37 GMT
If he is battling it out with Whelan for the midfield spot he is going to end up second best, like all the other pretends, at least for another season, in my defence case, I will exhibit what is left of Faye, s flipflops,
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 18, 2014 1:26:05 GMT
Spelling aside you get the points, "childish" and "equal quality." I am vested in Stoke because it is my team and when people spout stuff that is well basically not ture or simply opiniated and bereft of fact against defenders it irks me because I played as one a LB actually. If you look back you see me arguing infact Cameron is pretty good, but if we signed a better RB I was all for it. But have we? I never suggested we should buy another 28 year old RB either because it wasn't in my sights now was it? Did we sign Micah Richards or Gael Clichy or Pablo Zabaleta? No. We signed Phil Bardsley from Scotland. We all knew we needed another starting RB or another option. We necessarily didn't spend to get that world class RB but got a good deal for another option of the bench or as a starter in my opinion. You'll find post's defending Cameron versus Shotton or Wilko and that he's clinically de-rided for everything at Stoke that went bad at the back for Stoke. (even if it clearly wasn't true) I can honestly say I was right about him and that he'd be a force for our side and he was. I was against the wilko resigning you'll find. As were most thinking we were going to spend big because of the constant BS about Cameron being "worthless." Seeing as the Window isn't over but we've re-signed him and got phil it's looking like he's going to stay. Why would hughes want him? Well, infact he was at the end of the season one of the better RB's in the league consistently rated from 6.5 to 7 by Opta the official statistician of the Prem and FIFA. All managers use it and well Geoff was only a stand in. Imagine if he had an enitre off-season to only learn... Can you say that Paul? that you've stuck by a player because he's actually underrated by his own fans? or are you like everyone else who spouts opinions or keeps with talking points from others and jumps from the fence every once and a while? You think Cameron isn't worth more money now than when we bought him? Or is that to hard of a claim to stick by?
I haven't really offered an opinion on Cameron either way have I?
And I'm not particularly bothered about whether I've been wrong or right about players past or present, although and with respect, it seems to matter quite a lot to you.
Rather, by simply looking at the facts, ie. the signing of Bardsley and the new contract given to Wilko, it would suggest to me that Cameron won't be getting much game game time at right back next season, that's not a criticism of the player but just a simple observation, one I'm sure any impartial observer would come to if they were looking at the facts (and the facts alone) too.
At the end of the day Cameron might play a ton of games for us next season at right back but with the evidence we have at the moment that doesn't look likely.
We'll find out soon enough of course.
I don't disagree with what you say, it's just your omitting one key fact. Bardsley had a worse season last year. Fact. You can dress it how you like, his two OG's were enough for me to even question the signing! Mind you Geoff was a stand in. With that being known if Hughes can turn him into gold like he has with so many players, including Cameron. Yey. If he starts at RB and does amazing. Great. But who knows his plans nothing is concrete or factual it's all "assuming" Well I tell you when we signed Bardsley I assumed he had a better season, he didn't. Hughes might want him as cover for Cameron and keep Whelan, Nzonzi and Sidwell because he has options with Bardsley at RB and will move Cameron into CDM, who knows! You are right that we will see.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 18, 2014 1:34:44 GMT
I haven't really offered an opinion on Cameron either way have I?
And I'm not particularly bothered about whether I've been wrong or right about players past or present, although and with respect, it seems to matter quite a lot to you.
Rather, by simply looking at the facts, ie. the signing of Bardsley and the new contract given to Wilko, it would suggest to me that Cameron won't be getting much game game time at right back next season, that's not a criticism of the player but just a simple observation, one I'm sure any impartial observer would come to if they were looking at the facts (and the facts alone) too.
At the end of the day Cameron might play a ton of games for us next season at right back but with the evidence we have at the moment that doesn't look likely.
We'll find out soon enough of course.
I don't disagree with what you say, it's just your omitting one key fact. Bardsley had a worse season last year. Fact. You can dress it how you like, his two OG's were enough for me to even question the signing! Mind you Geoff was a stand in. With that being known if Hughes can turn him into gold like he has with so many players, including Cameron. Yey. If he starts at RB and does amazing. Great. But who knows his plans nothing is concrete or factual it's all "assuming" Well I tell you when we signed Bardsley I assumed he had a better season, he didn't. Hughes might want him as cover for Cameron and keep Whelan, Nzonzi and Sidwell because he has options with Bardsley at RB and will move Cameron into CDM, who knows! You are right that we will see.
Oh don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that Bardsley is a world beater at all, I'm just suggesting that Hughes' actions so far indicate what his probable plans are logically, likely to be.
Bardsley would have been nowhere near one of my personal first choices but I'm hoping that Hughes will prove me wrong - and to be fair I do trust him on that front.
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Post by mrpickles on Jun 18, 2014 6:09:22 GMT
Has there ever been a more desperate argument than the 'The Oatcake is Anti American'? Some people just don't rate Geoff Cameron at right back, and the fact that Mark Hughes' first two acts this summer were to extend the contract of an existing right back, and sign a new one, would (to me) suggest that he doesn't expect him to play many games there next season too. Stop taking it so personally.
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Post by metalhead on Jun 18, 2014 6:47:26 GMT
Has there ever been a more desperate argument than the 'The Oatcake is Anti American'? Some people just don't rate Geoff Cameron at right back, and the fact that Mark Hughes' first two acts this summer were to extend the contract of an existing right back, and sign a new one, would (to me) suggest that he doesn't expect him to play many games there next season too. Stop taking it so personally. How is it desperate? There's plenty on this forum who openly admit they don't like Americans? Some can't accept he played very well at centre back. It's like they have to find fault.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2014 6:57:59 GMT
It has fuck all to do with him being American. Why would it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2014 7:06:04 GMT
It may not be a hard fact but I think it's fairly bleedin' obvious. Midfield or bust for Cameron then despite the fact that he is palpably a better full back than Bardsley by any statistical measure you care to choose. It's still a strange one for me You've already said you have no idea what kind of right back Bardsley is so why are you making a fool of yourself saying he's palpably better when you don't have a clue either way?
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Post by kristoff on Jun 18, 2014 7:07:42 GMT
Has there ever been a more desperate argument than the 'The Oatcake is Anti American'? Some people just don't rate Geoff Cameron at right back, and the fact that Mark Hughes' first two acts this summer were to extend the contract of an existing right back, and sign a new one, would (to me) suggest that he doesn't expect him to play many games there next season too. Stop taking it so personally. How is it desperate? There's plenty on this forum who openly admit they don't like Americans? Some can't accept he played very well at centre back. It's like they have to find fault. Reguardless of the American argument, people all over this country now the internet is everywhere have to find fault with everything. Whats worse is its harder and harder to have a rational conversation. On here its not as bad as other forums about, ive had a few heated discussions over the last few days on here but (speaking for myself) settled them nicely. (looking at you mailman ) Some people just dont seem to want to do that regarding certain players no matter what facts you throw at them.
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Post by mrpickles on Jun 18, 2014 7:26:21 GMT
I'm not sure that's really helping, Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2014 7:28:59 GMT
I'm not sure that's really helping, Rob 'Works on any Ayatollah'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2014 7:30:58 GMT
Has there ever been a more desperate argument than the 'The Oatcake is Anti American'? Some people just don't rate Geoff Cameron at right back, and the fact that Mark Hughes' first two acts this summer were to extend the contract of an existing right back, and sign a new one, would (to me) suggest that he doesn't expect him to play many games there next season too. Stop taking it so personally. How is it desperate? There's plenty on this forum who openly admit they don't like Americans? Some can't accept he played very well at centre back. It's like they have to find fault. and some can't accept that Cameron has played centre half for Stoke in the premier league and didnt play very well or that Bardsley has been signed to play right back, this ridiculous argument is based on how he plays for the USA against inferior opposition. Playing the race card i desperate and pathetic, i hate the jocks but i love Charlie Adam and think he should start ahead of Ireland and i'm 1/4 Irish
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jun 18, 2014 7:40:55 GMT
There isn't a single one of you that knows what Mark Hughes' thoughts are ahead of next season or where he intends to deploy Cameron.
I can't see Cameron starting the season as first choice in ANY position but that doesn't mean he won't fight his way into the side in any number of positions.
For instance, away at Liverpool, where they have pace and movement aplenty from wide positions, I wouldn't be averse to seeing Cameron do a stint on the right side of midfield so as to stop their full-backs bombing on.
Either way, he is a utility player who doesn't seem to particularly excel in any position so chances are, as he should always have done since he arrived, he will play the Danny Pugh role. An ever reliable squad man who can be relied upon to do a job in number of positions in any given circumstance.
Either that or he will be sold which I really can't see.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 18, 2014 7:50:13 GMT
Quite amazing that this thread has grown to the size it has - and (as per usual) I haven't seen anyone materially change their views during the course of it! Might as well add my take on the situation. And, naturally, I haven't changed my views on the matter either. First, I don't think Cameron is on his way out of the club unless he particularly wants to leave - he's a manager's dream really - a bit like a defensive version of Walters in that he gets stuck in and gives of his best whichever position you put him in. Have you ever seen either of those two look disinterested? The signing of Bardsley probably does mean that Cameron is no longer first choice full back (sorry Stokemanusa). I doubt this will worry Cameron too much given that he has said on many occasions that he'd never played there until he came to Stoke and it remains the least favoured of the positions he's played in. He looks far better suited to a central midfield or central defensive role where he is not going to "drift in" like he did at right back - just as Shawcross and, especially, Huth did, when they played there briefly. I expect Hughes will try him out at centre back and in central midfield during pre season. Personally, I think he might end up more often in central midfield as he looks good going forward, when he doesn't have to cross. He's got a decent engine on him and he'll probably do a decent job in any central position. So, for me central midfield - and then cover for, first, centre back and second, right back. Whether he makes a central midfield role his own will depend upon how he impresses Hughes. He's younger and taller than Whelan which is a positive but Whelan has played there all his life which is a positive for him. Personally, in a 25 man squad, I'll be delighted to have a player like Cameron on the bench or in the starting eleven in a central role. If we are to get any higher in the league than 9th we do need two decent players for every position on the field and some of them have to be able to cover a second or third position. I refuse to argue about whether he'll start most games because, to be honest, I have no idea - and nor do most posters on this board.
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