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Post by swampmongrel on Aug 27, 2013 15:26:20 GMT
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 27, 2013 15:27:27 GMT
We haven't but Barcelona play 4-3-3 (a widely accepted fact) and nor do they, there's turns into 3-4-3. We set out as a 4-3-3 and within it that we have variations, that's how these formations work. The basic formation is a 4-3-3. Call it 4-3-3 if you want bit it clearly isn't. You said it's 4-3-3 with the ball, you've just accepted it isn't. In fact during the tour to the us I saw you make a point that backs me up when responding to someone who thought we were playing 3 at the back, you explained that the 2 CB's and DM create a triangle. X X X That triangle is mirrored on the otherside the other 2 CM's. X X X Hence the first 1 in a 4-1-4-1.
Wilson has been playing that 1. Which is why in both games so far he's made more tackles, interceptions & clearances than any other player because that's his role.
Cameron & Pieters advance when we haven't got the ball, the 1 is the pivot to their play. ie When we've got the ball get beyond Wilson, when we haven't get behind him.
At no point have we played 4-3-3, especially when we've got the ball. Barcelona are universally recognised as a 4-3-3 side because they play 4-3-3. We haven't so far.
Actually, you're right. I saw one of the full backs move away from a perfect defensive line on Saturday. It was like this: .......CB......CB.......LB RB........................ That to me isn't a 4-3-3 then. It's fucking 3-1-1-2-2-1. Actually the midfielders weren't level either and neither were the centre backs, or the wingers. We're playing 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 15:32:18 GMT
Shit the bed. It's not Pulisball, in 9-1-0, 8-1-1, or (at home vs Norwich) 7-2-1, or any of it's forms.
That's good enough for me.
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Post by mcf on Aug 27, 2013 15:39:34 GMT
you are right Trousers it was at that point when the RB went AWOL that we were undone by Pulisball tactics. Luckily, we employed Pulisball tactics in the 2nd half ourselves and it turned out fine.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 27, 2013 15:48:23 GMT
Fuck me, two pages of tactical clever dicks telling us what formation we're watching. Must be a 'slow' Tuesday.
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Post by metalhead on Aug 27, 2013 15:55:43 GMT
Fuck me, two pages of tactical clever dicks telling us what formation we're watching. Must be a 'slow' Tuesday. The Christmas Pudding? Or the famous 4-2-1-2-1 formation?
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Post by andystokey on Aug 27, 2013 16:03:12 GMT
Can we talk about overloading now?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 11:38:11 GMT
Has anybody mentioned the benefits of a 443 formation?
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Post by slother on Aug 28, 2013 11:42:10 GMT
4-3-3 with the ball turns into a 4-5-1 without it. I like to take the average and call it 4-4-2. You're right, of course. Sent from my HTC One S using proboards
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mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
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Post by mt on Aug 28, 2013 11:58:34 GMT
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes." - Brian Clough
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Post by cmc89 on Aug 28, 2013 12:15:47 GMT
I'm with trouserdog, we have a completely unique 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 at stoke. No team will ever be able to copy it exactly.
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Post by Olgrligm on Aug 28, 2013 12:24:56 GMT
I've not said it's 4-4-1-1. Without the ball it's 4-1-4-1 (watch how Wilson occupies the space between the defence & midfield) and with the ball it's 2-3-2-3. Neither of which constitutes 4-3-3. I think you're right and wrong Swansea. We do set up using the two formations that you've suggested depending on whether we are in possession of the ball or not but 4-3-3 is certainly a legitimate term to describe the formation that a team uses which encompasses both of the those formations (and more). 4-3-3 is such a fluid formation that it would be easy to give examples of any team that employs it not actually using it specifically at any point in the game. Exactly. In our case, it has been particularly fluid at times. Additionally, since the role of the wing backs is still primarily as defenders, 4-3-3 is more convenient nomenclature than confusing the issue by throwing an extra '2' in somewhere in between the 3 and the 3. Oh, and every modern formation is 4-5-1 without the ball.
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Post by stokiejoe on Aug 28, 2013 13:00:25 GMT
I was enjoying the new style until this lot started. Shall we go back to 9- 1 and parking the bus?
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Post by stockportstokie on Aug 28, 2013 13:13:08 GMT
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes." - Brian Clough Football outgrew Clough decades ago. Legend in his day but he wouldn't last two minutes in todays game.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 28, 2013 13:17:51 GMT
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes." - Brian Clough Football outgrew Clough decades ago. Legend in his day but he wouldn't last two minutes in todays game. He wouldn't have been able to 'handle' millionaire footballers with egos as big as his for a START. Mind you I agree with his comment in the quote.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 28, 2013 13:21:02 GMT
I'm with trouserdog, we have a completely unique 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 at stoke. No team will ever be able to copy it exactly. Well I knew we lacked width............
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 13:22:17 GMT
Football outgrew Clough decades ago. Legend in his day but he wouldn't last two minutes in todays game. He wouldn't have been able to 'handle' millionaire footballers with egos as big as his for a START. Mind you I agree with his comment in the quote. It was more true when he said it than it is today, when tactics and systems are more important than they've ever been.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 28, 2013 13:27:48 GMT
He wouldn't have been able to 'handle' millionaire footballers with egos as big as his for a START. Mind you I agree with his comment in the quote. It was more true when he said it than it is today, when tactics and systems are more important than they've ever been. I know THAT's the common thought rob. Funny how so many clubs play THE SAME tactics.
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 28, 2013 13:30:10 GMT
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes." - Brian Clough He was either drunk or, more likely, being disingenuous when he said that. Do you think Clough just sent his team out with a licence to play how they fancied? Of course he didn't. He did however leave us that quote, which folk who don't know their arse from their elbow can handily use whenever they want to lazily discredit the opinions of others.
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Post by MilanStokie on Aug 28, 2013 13:33:10 GMT
I was enjoying the new style until this lot started. Shall we go back to 9- 1 and parking the bus? Is anyone actually complaining at whatever formation we feel is being deployed? No. Are we allowed to debate which formation we think is being deployed? Yes Stop trying to find a negative when there isn't one.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Aug 28, 2013 13:34:34 GMT
whatever the system we used Saturday, it left our full backs absolutely totally exposed. At least Ethers offered his full back some protection. Poor Geoff Cameron was left high and dry, and was dragged aots, which meant Ryan behind his was too
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 13:37:43 GMT
It was more true when he said it than it is today, when tactics and systems are more important than they've ever been. I know THAT's the common thought rob. Funny how so many clubs play THE SAME tactics. Similar perhaps - the innovations are always copied, as in every other aspect of life. But I don't see how that means they're not important? Systems dictate the personnel these days rather than vice-versa. Hence Zlatan failing at Barca, Jose not finding a place for Mata and Owen not getting a sniff here.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 28, 2013 13:43:43 GMT
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes." - Brian Clough He was either drunk or, more likely, being disingenuous when he said that. Do you think Clough just sent his team out with a licence to play how they fancied? Of course he didn't. He did however leave us that quote, which folk who don't their arse from their elbow can handily use whenever they want to lazily discredit the opinions of others. Where, in any of his quote, does he say that tactics don't play a part? He's simply commenting on how people over-stress tactics and systems when, the truth is, poor player quality (or performance) is often the deciding factor. Clough was a tactician for sure but I think his comment is correct. I also think he's correct that the rest of us debate tactics to death like mega-brained football know-it-alls to the point of comedy.
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 28, 2013 13:47:48 GMT
He was either drunk or, more likely, being disingenuous when he said that. Do you think Clough just sent his team out with a licence to play how they fancied? Of course he didn't. He did however leave us that quote, which folk who don't their arse from their elbow can handily use whenever they want to lazily discredit the opinions of others. Where, in any of his quote, does he say that tactics don't play a part? He's simply commenting on how people over-stress tactics and systems when, the truth is, poor player quality (or performance) is often the deciding factor. Clough was a tactician for sure but I think his comment is correct. I also think he's correct that the rest of us debate tactics to death like mega-brained football know-it-alls to the point of comedy. Why are people know-it-alls if they make observations on tactics? To answer your question- the first line somewhat gives it away.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 28, 2013 13:52:58 GMT
I know THAT's the common thought rob. Funny how so many clubs play THE SAME tactics. Similar perhaps - the innovations are always copied, as in every other aspect of life. But I don't see how that means they're not important? Systems dictate the personnel these days rather than vice-versa. Hence Zlatan failing at Barca, Jose not finding a place for Mata and Owen not getting a sniff here. No one rob, including Brian Clough, was suggesting that tactics aren't an important part of the game but they are so over-stressed and very much over-debated. Most teams play with 'similar' if not identical tactics although some are far more 'fluid' because of the quality of players available to them. They don't ALL play the same obviously and you have to have one eye on your opponents and have a tactical grasp of what you need to do to win a game but I still think the tactics get debated to death when it's usually lack of quality or poor performance of players that hinders success in the long term.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 28, 2013 13:55:34 GMT
4-5-tits 4-3-bolloocks. Crouch was as isolated as ever that's all I know.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Aug 28, 2013 14:00:29 GMT
Where, in any of his quote, does he say that tactics don't play a part? He's simply commenting on how people over-stress tactics and systems when, the truth is, poor player quality (or performance) is often the deciding factor. Clough was a tactician for sure but I think his comment is correct. I also think he's correct that the rest of us debate tactics to death like mega-brained football know-it-alls to the point of comedy. Why are people know-it-alls if they make observations on tactics? To answer your question- the first line somewhat gives it away. It's not personal trousers, and you'll note that I included myself in the 'know-it-alls' comment. We all think we know better than the manager (whoever he might be) and this board is full of comments like "Why can't he see what the rest of us can see?". Of course tactics matter but players matter more and I think THAT is what Clough was getting at. He was probably being grilled about his tactics by someone who knew better than him. The first line indicates on over-emphasis on tactics rather than them being of no consequence.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2013 14:19:01 GMT
At what point have we kept 4 at the back when we've been attacking? We haven't but Barcelona play 4-3-3 (a widely accepted fact) and nor do they, there's turns into 3-4-3. We set out as a 4-3-3 and within it that we have variations, that's how these formations work. The basic formation is a 4-3-3. I dont think thats right Bayern. 4-2-3-1 for Barca. Sometimes 4-2-4-0
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 28, 2013 14:20:16 GMT
Why are people know-it-alls if they make observations on tactics? To answer your question- the first line somewhat gives it away. It's not personal trousers, and you'll note that I included myself in the 'know-it-alls' comment. We all think we know better than the manager (whoever he might be) and this board is full of comments like "Why can't he see what the rest of us can see?". Of course tactics matter but players matter more and I think THAT is what Clough was getting at. He was probably being grilled about his tactics by someone who knew better than him. The first line indicates on over-emphasis on tactics rather than them being of no consequence. Fair enough doz.
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mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
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Post by mt on Aug 28, 2013 15:07:44 GMT
"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes." - Brian Clough He was either drunk or, more likely, being disingenuous when he said that. Do you think Clough just sent his team out with a licence to play how they fancied? Of course he didn't. He did however leave us that quote, which folk who don't know their arse from their elbow can handily use whenever they want to lazily discredit the opinions of others. Maybe you are right( except of the arse and the elbow thing ), but Redknapp is a manager from recent times that have said something similar: www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/sunsport_columnists/3092130/Tactics-dont-win-matches-says-Harry-Redknapp.htmlBTW, Clough also left us with this quote about how to defend: " What I tell my players about defending a lead is this: If YOU have the ball and you are in their half...They can not score!" Simple, but brilliant.
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