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Post by numpty40 on Mar 12, 2012 19:48:32 GMT
Jones has been given chances this season by TP and not taken them.he was awful again against Chelsea.Basically he's a lazy player. Yes he's been given chances away at ManUre and Besiktas when he was given the opportunity to shine in a midfield role. As well as being to lone striker in a 10 man team at Chelsea. Really can't understand why he doesn't do better than he does when given these opportunites
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Post by RAF on Mar 12, 2012 19:48:34 GMT
He's been hung out to dry by the person who brought him in in the first place. Shame.
H
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 20:46:41 GMT
You may be right re TP having no intention of evolving (in which case thats a pretty worrying state of affairs). And you are right that at the end of last season we were playing some great stuff and were far more exciting than we are now. But that has more to do with the wingers and an in form Walters...Jones had very little to do with our upturn in fortunes. He was playing week in week out during our anual 5 month spell of crap and he epitomised everything wrong with us at the time. It is no coincidence that our best stuff has come when we had both wingers playing. One cant help but feel, had the wingers been playing week in week out this season, Crouch would already be well into double figures and Pulis would have saved himself a lot of justified critisism. Hindsight makes Mama look a better player than he was. Its human nature to look back on players with fondness. We mustnt forget that Kenwyne was utter crap week in week out for 5 months. In the few chances he has had this season he has looked equally as poor. It's pretty blinkered to suggest our run of good form last season had nothing whatsoever to do with Jones. I know you don't like him but credit where it's due eh? Jones was an important part of that run. He's hit and miss, but when he's good he makes a difference. The wingers have been off form but the lack of pace and mobility up front hasn't helped them. Rob why cant you accept that some things are just the way they are. You are talking up a player who clearly isnt what you are suggesting. The old "you're blinkered, credit where its due" etc is a little hysterical. Of recent times I agree with 90% if your conclusions...but you're Rory arguments (finally you're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with that one), your consistant hating on the Turk And you're undeniable respect for Kenwyne Jones (who really isnt all that), I just cant agree with. I repeat, and I will continue to repeat...where was Kenwyne Jones when we were fucking pants for 5 months from November through till the end of March last season? Our success in the FA Cup hides a lot of cracks that were unquestionable prior to that run (I'm taking nothing away from our cup final achievment which was fantastic). Why you are ignoring these pretty crucial 5 months I cant understand. Do you have an agenda on this one by any chance my man ? p.s are you genuinly saying that Kenwyne Jones has "mobility"? ;D
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 20:51:42 GMT
Jones has been given chances this season by TP and not taken them.he was awful again against Chelsea.Basically he's a lazy player. Yes he's been given chances away at ManUre and Besiktas when he was given the opportunity to shine in a midfield role. As well as being to lone striker in a 10 man team at Chelsea. Really can't understand why he doesn't do better than he does when given these opportunites You say this but hes probably been involved in about 20 games this season in all competitions. I can think of at least 5 league games hes started. Admitadly they've been against tough opposition, but thats not to stop him standing out. Diego Arismendi has had 2 chances...one against one of the finest in Europe...and stood out. Where was Jones in these games? Hes given TP nothing to think about. As a striker he should be showing why he SHOULD be on the park. Whenever Jones has been involved this season, hes largely demonstrated why he SHOULDNT be on the park. (The work ethic doesnt bother me...I can tolerate a shit work ethic if they show quality week in week out...Jones has and does neither).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 20:55:37 GMT
It's pretty blinkered to suggest our run of good form last season had nothing whatsoever to do with Jones. I know you don't like him but credit where it's due eh? Jones was an important part of that run. He's hit and miss, but when he's good he makes a difference. The wingers have been off form but the lack of pace and mobility up front hasn't helped them. Rob why cant you accept that some things are just the way they are. You are talking up a player who clearly isnt what you are suggesting. The old "you're blinkered, credit where its due" etc is a little hysterical. Of recent times I agree with 90% if your conclusions...but you're Rory arguments (finally you're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with that one), your consistant hating on the Turk And you're undeniable respect for Kenwyne Jones (who really isnt all that), I just cant agree with. I repeat, and I will continue to repeat...where was Kenwyne Jones when we were fucking pants for 5 months from November through till the end of March last season? Our success in the FA Cup hides a lot of cracks that were unquestionable prior to that run (I'm taking nothing away from our cup final achievment which was fantastic). Why you are ignoring these pretty crucial 5 months I cant understand. Do you have an agenda on this one by any chance my man ? p.s are you genuinly saying that Kenwyne Jones has "mobility"? ;D I'm ignoring them in this case because you were, in talking about our good run from March to May. I was responding to you suggesting our good run last season had nothing whatsoever to do with him, which is horseshit however you slice it. Jones is far more mobile than Crouch, and makes runs that Crouch would never make. He's nowhere near as good a footballer, but yes, he's pretty mobile. He takes defenders with him and creates space, which is important for his strike partner and the wingers, and the lack of a player up top to do that this season has been a reason why the wingers and Walters have struggled and we haven't scored as many in my opinion.
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Post by numpty40 on Mar 12, 2012 20:56:05 GMT
I don't understand where you get this idea that most people think he is a great player from? He is probably the most unfairly criticised player we have at Stoke and I would hazard a guess that he is probably the player that most critics feel the need to start a new thread about whenever he gets within a foot of the playing area.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 20:56:27 GMT
Yes he's been given chances away at ManUre and Besiktas when he was given the opportunity to shine in a midfield role. As well as being to lone striker in a 10 man team at Chelsea. Really can't understand why he doesn't do better than he does when given these opportunites You say this but hes probably been involved in about 20 games this season in all competitions. I can think of at least 5 league games hes started. Admitadly they've been against tough opposition, but thats not to stop him standing out. Diego Arismendi has had 2 chances...one against one of the finest in Europe...and stood out. Where was Jones in these games? Hes given TP nothing to think about. As a striker he should be showing why he SHOULD be on the park. Whenever Jones has been involved this season, hes largely demonstrated why he SHOULDNT be on the park. (The work ethic doesnt bother me...I can tolerate a shit work ethic if they show quality week in week out...Jones has and does neither). Jones had a thoroughly decent game against Valencia. Led the line well.
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Post by numpty40 on Mar 12, 2012 20:59:44 GMT
You say this but hes probably been involved in about 20 games this season in all competitions. I can think of at least 5 league games hes started. Admitadly they've been against tough opposition, but thats not to stop him standing out. Diego Arismendi has had 2 chances...one against one of the finest in Europe...and stood out. Where was Jones in these games? Hes given TP nothing to think about. As a striker he should be showing why he SHOULD be on the park. Whenever Jones has been involved this season, hes largely demonstrated why he SHOULDNT be on the park. (The work ethic doesnt bother me...I can tolerate a shit work ethic if they show quality week in week out...Jones has and does neither). Jones had a thoroughly decent game against Valencia. Led the line well. I actually thought Jones was excellent in Besiktas as well, despite playing a central midfield role!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:02:24 GMT
Jones had a thoroughly decent game against Valencia. Led the line well. I actually thought Jones was excellent in Besiktas as well, despite playing a central midfield role!! And at OT too in a similar role to be honest.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:05:12 GMT
You say this but hes probably been involved in about 20 games this season in all competitions. I can think of at least 5 league games hes started. Admitadly they've been against tough opposition, but thats not to stop him standing out. Diego Arismendi has had 2 chances...one against one of the finest in Europe...and stood out. Where was Jones in these games? Hes given TP nothing to think about. As a striker he should be showing why he SHOULD be on the park. Whenever Jones has been involved this season, hes largely demonstrated why he SHOULDNT be on the park. (The work ethic doesnt bother me...I can tolerate a shit work ethic if they show quality week in week out...Jones has and does neither). Jones had a thoroughly decent game against Valencia. Led the line well. ;D ;D What..you mean apart from missing 2 absolutely clear cut chances? You can kid yourself all you want re Jones, and how he was a massive part of our success last season and how hes been treated unfairly etc. Fact is...TP has seen the light...if you havent. Gone are the days of seeing him in a Stoke shirt...like it or not. (Unless Crouch gets injured) there is absolutely no reason why he would make another premier league appearance for us...
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 12, 2012 21:07:34 GMT
be interesting to see KJ's goals to starts ratio this season, minus the 4 starts that have seen him play in midfield against Manure, Besiktas, Man City and Chelsea.
He must have scored 5 goals from no more than 12 starts which isn't bad going when you consider he hasn't scored in ages as a sub!
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 12, 2012 21:08:10 GMT
He's been hung out to dry by the person who brought him in in the first place. Shame. H At least we've got a few years of Crouch and Walters to look forward to!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:09:39 GMT
Jones had a thoroughly decent game against Valencia. Led the line well. ;D ;D What..you mean apart from missing 2 absolutely clear cut chances? You can kid yourself all you want re Jones, and how he was a massive part of our success last season and how hes been treated unfairly etc. Fact is...TP has seen the light...if you havent. Gone are the days of seeing him in a Stoke shirt...like it or not. (Unless Crouch gets injured) there is absolutely no reason why he would make another premier league appearance for us... I'm not too fussed if he moves on as long as he's replaced with someone as good or better, especially if he actually gets a game. I'm just capable of seeing that he offers more than your black and white vision allows you to see when it comes to football. Yeah, Jones led the line against Valencia despite those misses. He caused them problems, created space, won plenty in the air, held the ball up well. Misses were a shame but Crouch would never have the run to receive Palacios' pass in the first place.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:10:50 GMT
be interesting to see KJ's goals to starts ratio this season, minus the 4 starts that have seen him play in midfield against Manure, Besiktas, Man City and Chelsea. He must have scored 5 goals from no more than 12 starts which isn't bad going when you consider he hasn't scored in ages as a sub! itd be more interesting to see Jerome's goal ratio considering how few starts hes had. Yet to start a league game at the Brit (his 35 minutes against Sunderland aside).
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:12:45 GMT
;D ;D What..you mean apart from missing 2 absolutely clear cut chances? You can kid yourself all you want re Jones, and how he was a massive part of our success last season and how hes been treated unfairly etc. Fact is...TP has seen the light...if you havent. Gone are the days of seeing him in a Stoke shirt...like it or not. (Unless Crouch gets injured) there is absolutely no reason why he would make another premier league appearance for us... I'm not too fussed if he moves on as long as he's replaced with someone as good or better, especially if he actually gets a game. I'm just capable of seeing that he offers more than your black and white vision allows you to see when it comes to football. Yeah, Jones led the line against Valencia despite those misses. E caused them problems, created space, won plenty in the air, held the ball up well. Misses were a shame but Crouch would never have the run to receive Palacios' pass in the first place. You have absolutely no idea how Crouch would have played in Valencia. Especially considering how well our midfield played. For all you know he could have scored a hatrick. Both Fuller and Jones were pretty poor in Valencia. Our 2 midfielders and Jerome were fantastic.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 12, 2012 21:12:55 GMT
Jerome has done very well when coming on as a Sub and less well when he has started games.
This thread is about KJ though, so Jerome's stats are not relevant.
You never answered me about Crouch's league tally either. What's up? Do the stats not back up your argument or something?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:17:33 GMT
I'm not too fussed if he moves on as long as he's replaced with someone as good or better, especially if he actually gets a game. I'm just capable of seeing that he offers more than your black and white vision allows you to see when it comes to football. Yeah, Jones led the line against Valencia despite those misses. E caused them problems, created space, won plenty in the air, held the ball up well. Misses were a shame but Crouch would never have the run to receive Palacios' pass in the first place. You have absolutely no idea how Crouch would have played in Valencia. Especially considering how well our midfield played. For all you know he could have scored a hatrick. Both Fuller and Jones were pretty poor in Valencia. Our 2 midfielders and Jerome were fantastic. I can make a reasonable assessment based on what I've seen. Crouch is a good player but we've not seen him get into those positions have we? You can't give Jones credit even when he plays well.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:17:49 GMT
Jerome has done very well when coming on as a Sub and less well when he has started games. This thread is about KJ though, so Jerome's stats are not relevant. You never answered me about Crouch's league tally either. What's up? Do the stats not back up your argument or something? Sorry pal I forgot. Crouch has scored 7 league games this season...Jones has got 1. Whats your point ? ;D Playing without any wingers. I still imagine he'll finish up on around 17 goals in all comps...whats he on at the moment in all...12?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:22:10 GMT
You have absolutely no idea how Crouch would have played in Valencia. Especially considering how well our midfield played. For all you know he could have scored a hatrick. Both Fuller and Jones were pretty poor in Valencia. Our 2 midfielders and Jerome were fantastic. I can make a reasonable assessment based on what I've seen. Crouch is a good player but we've not seen him get into those positions have we? You can't give Jones credit even when he plays well. Rob what drugs are you on at the minute? Jones was not good in Valencia and I'm finding it a little hysterical that you demand I say he was. He arguably cost us the tie with his shocking composure in front of goal. He scores them and we're through. Difference between a poor striker and a good striker. Basic Rob basic.
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Post by armitagestokie on Mar 12, 2012 21:23:29 GMT
Crouch better than KJ with his feet, KJ better with head. Both players have under-performed due to the LACK of service. Hope KJ goes to Russia for 5 mill +
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:24:23 GMT
I can make a reasonable assessment based on what I've seen. Crouch is a good player but we've not seen him get into those positions have we? You can't give Jones credit even when he plays well. Rob what drugs are you on at the minute? Jones was not good in Valencia and I'm finding it a little hysterical that you demand I say he was. He arguably cost us the tie with his shocking composure in front of goal. He scores them and we're through. Difference between a poor striker and a good striker. Basic Rob basic. Not just Valencia mate. Valencia, his good spell last season, some of his better games this season. You're the same with Delap and with Tuncay. Once you like/don't like a player you've made your mind up and it doesn't matter what they actually do on the pitch any more because you see what you want to see.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 12, 2012 21:28:31 GMT
The point is that 7 league goals isn't a great deal is it. He won't finish with too many more than KJ got last season, proving that another 10m for little improvement wasn't money well spent.
KJ hasn't started many league games so his league goals column this season is more or less irrelevant. goals from number of starts is a better judgement of KJ this season, purely because his chances have been limited.
I am not knocking Crouch here, merely offering some defence to KJ, who has been harshly disposed of in my opinion.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:30:13 GMT
Rob what drugs are you on at the minute? Jones was not good in Valencia and I'm finding it a little hysterical that you demand I say he was. He arguably cost us the tie with his shocking composure in front of goal. He scores them and we're through. Difference between a poor striker and a good striker. Basic Rob basic. Not just Valencia mate. Valencia, his good spell last season, some of his better games this season. You're the same with Delap and with Tuncay. Once you like/don't like a player you've made your mind up and it doesn't matter what they actually do on the pitch any more because you see what you want to see. Good spells or not Rob, 5 months with 1 goal is a shocking return at any level. You always say this re Delap and Tuncay. Fact is...Delap isnt good enough anymore...thats my opinion its based on what I see...if Delap suddenly turned up at the weekend and was spraying the ball around like Scholes and passing it well...or even commanding the midfield...i'd certainly say so (and I have done so whenever Delap has played well). Few years ago I was a big Rory fan...always complementing him...problem is now..hes passed it...you...like many others, and to an extent the manager...cant let him go...you cant accept that hes past it despite 2 seasons of him putting in some very average performances. Fuller is probably past it now as well (why hes starting ahead of Jerome at Chelsea is ridiculous)...and you wont accept that i'm sure. As for Tuncay...it was a mistake to sell him...he was an exciting player...it was an even bigger mistake not to replace him. You bring Tuncay on in the fa cup final with 30 minutes left as apposed to Dean Whitehead or Danny Pugh and we have half a chance. Can you really deny that?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:32:50 GMT
The point is that 7 league goals isn't a great deal is it. He won't finish with too many more than KJ got last season, proving that another 10m for little improvement wasn't money well spent. KJ hasn't started many league games so his league goals column this season is more or less irrelevant. goals from number of starts is a better judgement of KJ this season, purely because his chances have been limited. I am not knocking Crouch here, merely offering some defence to KJ, who has been harshly disposed of in my opinion. I'm with you to an extent. Crouch hasnt been as effective as he could have been...but thats down to the managers desire to flog dead horses week in week out and his reluctance to play 2 genuine wingers. With hindsight...would I blow £10 million on a 31 year old? No. Was it clear at the end of last season that we needed a better target man than Jones? Yes...Crouch hasnt done a lot wrong...without setting the world alight...but hes shown up everything that Jones couldnt do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:36:18 GMT
Not just Valencia mate. Valencia, his good spell last season, some of his better games this season. You're the same with Delap and with Tuncay. Once you like/don't like a player you've made your mind up and it doesn't matter what they actually do on the pitch any more because you see what you want to see. Good spells or not Rob, 5 months with 1 goal is a shocking return at any level. You always say this re Delap and Tuncay. Fact is...Delap isnt good enough anymore...thats my opinion its based on what I see...if Delap suddenly turned up at the weekend and was spraying the ball around like Scholes and passing it well...or even commanding the midfield...i'd certainly say so (and I have done so whenever Delap has played well). Few years ago I was a big Rory fan...always complementing him...problem is now..hes passed it...you...like many others, and to an extent the manager...cant let him go...you cant accept that hes past it despite 2 seasons of him putting in some very average performances. Fuller is probably past it now as well (why hes starting ahead of Jerome at Chelsea is ridiculous)...and you wont accept that i'm sure. As for Tuncay...it was a mistake to sell him...he was an exciting player...it was an even bigger mistake not to replace him. You bring Tuncay on in the fa cup final with 30 minutes left as apposed to Dean Whitehead or Danny Pugh and we have half a chance. Can you really deny that? What are you basing the assertion that I can't let him go on when for the past two seasons I've been saying he needs to start being phased out but still has something to offer? Not replacing Tuncay was the biggest mistake. But you had him down as this world class saviour when he was a good but inconsistent squad player who didn't really fit into how we play. You say 'good spells or not' and bang on about the five months thing but you were denying the good spell ever existed before. That's my point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:37:21 GMT
The point is that 7 league goals isn't a great deal is it. He won't finish with too many more than KJ got last season, proving that another 10m for little improvement wasn't money well spent. KJ hasn't started many league games so his league goals column this season is more or less irrelevant. goals from number of starts is a better judgement of KJ this season, purely because his chances have been limited. I am not knocking Crouch here, merely offering some defence to KJ, who has been harshly disposed of in my opinion. I'm with you to an extent. Crouch hasnt been as effective as he could have been...but thats down to the managers desire to flog dead horses week in week out and his reluctance to play 2 genuine wingers. With hindsight...would I blow £10 million on a 31 year old? No. Was it clear at the end of last season that we needed a better target man than Jones? Yes...Crouch hasnt done a lot wrong...without setting the world alight...but hes shown up everything that Jones couldnt do. Yet we're a poorer team scoring less goals this season. Go figure.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:42:00 GMT
I'm with you to an extent. Crouch hasnt been as effective as he could have been...but thats down to the managers desire to flog dead horses week in week out and his reluctance to play 2 genuine wingers. With hindsight...would I blow £10 million on a 31 year old? No. Was it clear at the end of last season that we needed a better target man than Jones? Yes...Crouch hasnt done a lot wrong...without setting the world alight...but hes shown up everything that Jones couldnt do. Yet we're a poorer team scoring less goals this season. Go figure. "thats down to the managers desire to flog dead horses week in week out and his reluctance to play 2 genuine wingers."
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 12, 2012 21:42:47 GMT
Equally KJ shows up a lot of what Crouch can't do also.
You point to 5 months without a goal last season and argue that Crouch has scored his goals without two wingers on show.
May I remind you that during the middle part of last season, when we were absolutely shit, we rarely played both wingers either.
What is good for the goose has to be good for the gander.
KJ proved that given the right service, he will score goals and I would dispute your assertion that we needed an upgrade on KJ based on last season. All we needed, was a decent partner for KJ given Ric's absence due to injury.
KJ and Jerome look a much better partnership than Crouch and Walters.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2012 21:43:37 GMT
Yet we're a poorer team scoring less goals this season. Go figure. "thats down to the managers desire to flog dead horses week in week out and his reluctance to play 2 genuine wingers." We didn't play two wingers every week last season either... And even when w have this season we haven't scored too many goals.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 12, 2012 21:44:43 GMT
Good spells or not Rob, 5 months with 1 goal is a shocking return at any level. You always say this re Delap and Tuncay. Fact is...Delap isnt good enough anymore...thats my opinion its based on what I see...if Delap suddenly turned up at the weekend and was spraying the ball around like Scholes and passing it well...or even commanding the midfield...i'd certainly say so (and I have done so whenever Delap has played well). Few years ago I was a big Rory fan...always complementing him...problem is now..hes passed it...you...like many others, and to an extent the manager...cant let him go...you cant accept that hes past it despite 2 seasons of him putting in some very average performances. Fuller is probably past it now as well (why hes starting ahead of Jerome at Chelsea is ridiculous)...and you wont accept that i'm sure. As for Tuncay...it was a mistake to sell him...he was an exciting player...it was an even bigger mistake not to replace him. You bring Tuncay on in the fa cup final with 30 minutes left as apposed to Dean Whitehead or Danny Pugh and we have half a chance. Can you really deny that? What are you basing the assertion that I can't let him go on when for the past two seasons I've been saying he needs to start being phased out but still has something to offer? Not replacing Tuncay was the biggest mistake. But you had him down as this world class saviour when he was a good but inconsistent squad player who didn't really fit into how we play. You say 'good spells or not' and bang on about the five months thing but you were denying the good spell ever existed before. That's my point. No I had him down as a player who could excite, create something out of nothing and give the fans their moneys worth of entertainment. Goes without saying he put in some brilliant individual performances. I said to you at the time. Give him the same amount of league games (around 150) as Fuller...I will tell you now...his goal return and his all round impact at the club would have been very similar. No you're just going back to making things up Rob. I agreed that we had a good spell. He wasnt responsible for this good spell...thats my point.
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