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Post by RINGO STARR on Feb 17, 2012 15:09:14 GMT
Another problem with this country's attitude to football is that we're obsessed with the Spanish football revoloution of recent years. I am in no doubt that Spain's current dominance in football at domestic and international levels will come and go just as France, Hollands, Italy's and Germanys have done in past decades.
The burning issue is that the aforementioned nations have always been there or there abouts in major tournaments on a consistent basis where as we haven't.
There seems to be a distinct lack of pride and passion where England are concerned which I put down again to club football being far too serious as a business. A 16 year old lad does no longer dream of lifting the World Cup for England and would choose a Champions league with his club. This is because players are paid vast sums of money by the clubs from an early age that would set the kid and his whole family up for life. Its completly and utterly wrong and epitomizes everything that is wrong with the game. Money ruins sport I'm afraid.
In Germany and Spain you can go and watch a decent team for around £20. In this country for us to go and watch Chelsea's foreign imports we will pay £60. Wheres that money going? Its going straight into Fernando Torres bank account. No money goes into the grass roots football of the local communities. I know that Premier League clubs do things for their local communities but none of it really goes into sport and development of sport.
I would have loved to have lived in the 60's and 70's where a team like Derby County under Clough, could get promoted from division two and go and win division one within a few seasons. That I'm afraid will never ever be done again in this country unless of course money rules. I'm aware that Clough spent money back in the day to create that side but thats management. Thats part and parcel of the game.
The older that I get the more and more I get frustrated by how football has become. Sky own the game nowadays and we have to live with the fact that money and power rule over the working man/football supporter.
Rant over. I really am starting to sound like an old fart.
I think some Friday Peroni is needed.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Feb 17, 2012 15:10:52 GMT
I think there's too much pride and passion with Ingerlund. Not enough nous, ability and technqiue.
Football has changed. We haven't.
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Post by RINGO STARR on Feb 17, 2012 15:12:29 GMT
I don't even know what relevance that post has on this thread. Its been a long, hard week.
We had better beat that division 4 team or Mrs Ringo's ring is getting it.
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Post by RINGO STARR on Feb 17, 2012 15:19:14 GMT
I think there's too much pride and passion with Ingerlund. Not enough nous, ability and technqiue. Football has changed. We haven't. I think when we have tried to adapt to the techniques of foreign managers we've actually looked far worse than we did under Robson and Venables. They installed a pride and passion into the team that we're lacking at present. Players like Rooney, Gerrard are have the nous, ability and technque but we need their passion and pride to shine through like it does for their club sides. Why they don't seem to show the same passion for England baffles and frustrates me.
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 17, 2012 15:22:56 GMT
I think there's too much pride and passion with Ingerlund. Not enough nous, ability and technqiue. Football has changed. We haven't. I think when we have tried to adapt to the techniques of foreign managers we've actually looked far worse than we did under Robson and Venables. They installed a pride and passion into the team that we're lacking at present. Players like Rooney, Gerrard are have the nous, ability and technque but we need their passion and pride to shine through like it does for their club sides. Why they don't seem to show the same passion for England baffles and frustrates me. FFS, the reason Gerrard and Rooney are good players is not because they have passion. Nor is the reason that Spain and Germany are better than us because they are more passionate. International games are not won with pride and passion. If they were, Wilko would be England captain.
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Post by Northy on Feb 17, 2012 15:33:25 GMT
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Post by stokie12345 on Feb 17, 2012 15:43:26 GMT
Bunny, you have hit the nail on the head. The problems with English football stretch from top to bottom, and 'Arry coming in to fire up our millionaires to a quarter final penalty defeat at the Euro's will paper over the cracks for another year. Stoke over the past few years are a fine example of what is both totally right and totally wrong with English football.
We don't have the kids coming through, we don't have the coaches (check out zonalmarking.com for some hard-hitting statistics about top-class english managers [oxymoron]) and people expect us to win things?
Look at Holland, tiny country, and yet the talent they produce is ridiculous - that's because they coach technique. Yet England, with the money and the fancy new stadium, will face them this year with Stuart Pearce (raaaagh! passion!) in charge. Passion's great, but is no substitute for talent - something we're not producing.
You can't spell passion without "pass"
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Post by RINGO STARR on Feb 17, 2012 15:48:38 GMT
I think when we have tried to adapt to the techniques of foreign managers we've actually looked far worse than we did under Robson and Venables. They installed a pride and passion into the team that we're lacking at present. Players like Rooney, Gerrard are have the nous, ability and technque but we need their passion and pride to shine through like it does for their club sides. Why they don't seem to show the same passion for England baffles and frustrates me. FFS, the reason Gerrard and Rooney are good players is not because they have passion. Nor is the reason that Spain and Germany are better than us because they are more passionate. International games are not won with pride and passion. If they were, Wilko would be England captain. Where in the above context have I said that Spain and Germany win things because they are more passionate than we are and where the fuck does it say anything about Gerrard and Rooney being only good because they have passion? Twisting My Melon Man.
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Post by Robo10 on Feb 17, 2012 16:35:38 GMT
Hi Bunny
Please dont take offence at some of the below, I always read your posts with interest on here and they generally make sense!
However, a number of your points are incorrect (completely), and your 'ideas' seem to be pinched straight from the Gareth Southgate/Nick Levett (who? Read on...) handbook
(PS - Nantwich Stokie - results arent stored or published under 8, after that they are on the various league websites and leagues published in line with current FA rules)
There is already a largescale 'grassroots' consultation underway that will see massive changes to the junior/youth football scene, with a lot of change that is well meaning, but when you look at how it can be applied is utter horse shit
There is a massive FA document of poposals that they are trying to get though the county FAs, they call it a 'consultation' but in truth they trying to force it through with the support of semi pro type teams with large facilities and the scope to financially cope with it, and seemingly a big 'feck you' to the hundreds of local teams put together by volunteers who rely on council pitches and shitty facilities
I've made my feelings clear in several letter to the FA and my league, a section of which is at the bottom of this post
Basically 3 major changes are coming:
As I understand it, the changes are thus:
- Mini Soccer to be broken down even further to see 5v5 up to u8, 7v7 up to u10, 9v9 up to u12 (all with no recorded leagues or results), then 11v11 after that on intermediate pitches etc - Age ranges will be moved from a starting point (say kids born in 2007) from School Years to Annual Years, so the goalposts are ‘moved’ to enable kids who are the youngest in school teams not to be deemed double penalised due to size in Grass Roots football
Some problems for me with that
- Facilities
Even if you were to agree with the concept of small sides games and 9v9, I am intrigued where the FA think the money and pitch facilities will come from to support this. I have seen suggestions of blue markings on adult pitches (pen box to pen box), and my last correspondence to Mr Levett where I was told to contact my County FA as they could advise…
This sums up the proposals – I don’t know if any of the panel or decision makers have ever been to a small town or club who rely on council or school facilities, where pitches are shared with adult teams and the state of them by this time of year means there is barely any grass left – pitches are quagmires of mud and water through overuse, so quite how putting blue lines on them and increasing that use will help is beyond me!
Many of the teams at the ‘Roadshows’ who were all for these proposals tended to be cash rich teams with their own large facilities, so I am sure they are all for it – the challenges for teams like ours (and many others in the NSJYL/NSYL and I am sure many in the PMSL and PYL) is that we don’t have that luxury or money – and neither do the councils given the current climate
I’ve no problem with the concept of 9v9 if the facilities were available, and it was introduced properly by the way
- Managers
If they are looking to bring in all of the new team sizes, who do they expect is going to run the teams? It’s a real struggle to get VOLUNTEERS (they shouldn’t forget that!) that have the time, desire and commitment to run a junior team, to organise training, kit, registration and paperwork, attend FA courses, CRB checks, and spend all Sunday morning coaching and managing a team – it takes a special breed of person to want to do it. We cant get enough managers and coaches now, so once all the mini soccer teams (at a younger level) are split in two, who will run the teams?
- Age Changes
In the proposals they quote that ‘in their research most teams had kids coming from 5 or 6 different schools, so the change of school year to calendar year wasn’t a problem’
I’m not sure where this research was carried out, certainly not in our area having spoken to many coaches and parents. It might apply to some of the ‘super clubs’ in our area (the Newcastle Towns, Stone Dominoes, Shamblers etc) where kids come from all over town and outside to play for them in their semi pro setups, but for the majority of kids in teams in our league and others, most of the teams are made up of bunches of kids who go to school together and wanted to setup a team – its how I got my team started, they talk about the game at school on a Monday, they socialise together etc – most of the kids (and coaches) play junior football to have a game of football with their mates, and to enjoy it.
The reason given that its to ensure the younger kids are given some advantage (as opposed to school year) is nonsense – if you lined up all the kids in my team you would struggle to pick out who was the oldest – three of the largest and strongest kids in my team are also amongst the youngest, while my own son (who is one of the oldest) is small compared to many of the others! Its utter nonsense.
Yes there are teams out there who try to win via route one (big keeper launching to big striker), but I have found in my 2 years with PMSL and 1 year with NSJYL that the majority of teams are trying to encourage good football, exciting pass and move play – that’s not to say there is anything wrong occasionally with sticking the ball into the box!
I’m sure the FA want us all to play like Barcelona rather than Stoke, but in truth football takes all sorts, the last time I read the rules it was about scoring more goals than the opposition, no matter how that’s achieved within the rules!
My team won’t win any trophies, we compete hard, we try our best, and season on season we have improved beyond recognition even if that’s not shown in league position or points, but a win for us is a joy, a defeat is a defeat, as long as the kids give their all that’s enough for me and my parents. This season alone we have beaten 2 of the top 3 teams in the league and drawn with the 4th place – that alone made the kids believe and try even harder (again I don’t see how not publishing results helps here as its good to know if you beat somebody at the top!)
When my youngest son is ready for football, I should be at the end of my time with my eldest sons team, I will have large reservations about getting involved again and at this point will be happy to just stand and watch him play – far less stress and nonsense.
Finally (I’m sure you will be relieved!), my summary is this – The FA has the wrong end of the stick in what they understand Grass Roots to be – they have no understanding of teams and clubs based in small towns and villages for whom these changes will have significant impact. For the larger clubs in the area I’m sure they are all for it, they tend to poach the better players anyway so its no problem to them.
For me the FA should have concentrated these efforts on their Academies and Centres of Excellence, as lets face it, most of the kids who play Sundays wont ever make it to that level.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t try to improve things, FA Coaching badges, CRB etc are all positive things, but as for rule and ages, they should bring those changes in there. That’s how they will impact the national game, create future England players comfortable on the ball etc – however leave the real grassroots football for the kids to enjoy and play with their mates, and remove some of the massive amount of red tape that exists in the game – most of us do it for enjoyment, sadly its becoming a chore and a lot will walk away.
Your point on teams picking 'bigger' kids to win games - thats straight from the propoganda machine of the FA. Bar one or two teams, the ethos of most clubs is developing the kids and them enjoying playing football - if all of the above comes true only the elite will continue, the rest of us will disappear and like when we were kids, the only football children will play will be on the local park with their mates.
Competition is good, I dont really understand why we want to shield kids from it
Last night did show a huge gulf in class (passing and movement etc), but to be fair they are a massive team with a massive European pedigree, but to our credit, for all that passing and possession, they won with a wonder goal, and bar a scramble second half Bego wasnt that busy?
We put them under pressure for a good spell, their keeper was excellent dealing with the crosses
Is a good debate, but I think the FA are barking up the wrong tree, and trying to apply it to the wrong level - do it to the academies (who seem to be a rule to themselves and dont follow FA guidelines with age/pitch sizes/team sizes etc!) - thats where you will impact the national team, not bunches of schoolfriends just wanting a game of footy on a Sunday.
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Post by Robo10 on Feb 17, 2012 16:42:07 GMT
PS - NSJYL is Lads n Dads (North Staffs Junior Youth League), PYL is Potteries Youth League, the two main junior leagues around here :-)
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Post by Robo10 on Feb 17, 2012 16:47:26 GMT
PPS - Anybody with an interest or opinion on this - The FA are coming to meet our leagues in the coming weeks to listen to the concerns of teams and leagues - our meeting is 5th March at Kidsgrove WMC. Nick Levett (a professor who has put the recommendations together) should have been there, but his second in command is coming instead Some linky things of interest www.clubnewsletter.co.uk/2011/feb/faproposals.htmlwww.thefa.com/TheFA/NewsAndFeatures/2011/YPDwww.clubwebsite.co.uk/news/2011/02/28/fa-proposals-for-youth-football-have-your-say/I'm still not entirely sure how changing mini soccer for 90% of kids playing football will make the England team better - its surely the academies that need addressing - all the 'better kids' at that age group are snapped up by them, centres of excellence, development squads etc - scouts are always at games pinching the best kids then shattering most of their dreams!
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Post by werrington on Feb 17, 2012 17:04:39 GMT
I;ve been saying this for years now.
The kid who launches an opposition player 10 feet into the air gets the " Thats what we need " treatment whilst the kid who can find a pass or keeps it simple gets not even a glance and it goes unnoticed.
This " Be strong " and " Get stuck into em " bollocks is now reaping its rewards.
Light years behind
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Post by Robo10 on Feb 17, 2012 17:15:23 GMT
Some of you guys obviously dont watch a lot of kids football nowadays.
Certainly not the experience I have had
There isnt anything wrong with a good tackle by the way, as there isnt trying to make a pass - football takes all sorts of skills.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Feb 17, 2012 17:44:09 GMT
Robo, great posts, and to be honest I don't see a massive amount of difference between the two of us.
Why do 8 year old's need a team? Why not just train and practice? Holland is a country tghat is a fracton of our size and yet has twice as many ids playing football - why? facilities are better, you are right, that is why? Coaching is better, that is why?
I run an under 9's team and it's a pain. I do it virtualy as a one man band and to be honest it's not worth it. I'd prefer to book 2 hours somewhere and coach, in fact that is what I'll probably do. U9 is too an early an age to be playing in a competetive league imho.
Sorry, but some of the stuff I've heard off parents (not ours, or I would ask them take teir kid away) is scandalous eg. on throw ins "get up his arse" etc, even "Do him" when two players are going in for tackles. One day I will totally lose it with some classless dullard who thinks its great that they shout such rubbish out.
Kid's football is well set up around here, but again, I questuion just how useful is playing competetive matches at such a young age, when technique should be more important than winning.
Noone alive is more compeptetive than me, and yet I see kids blaming others at an early age, kids totally alienated by the sport andsome parents who simply need to give their heads a wobble
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Post by Northy on Feb 17, 2012 18:05:29 GMT
(PS - Nantwich Stokie - results arent stored or published under 8, after that they are on the various league websites and leagues published in line with current FA rules) I didn't quite understand that bit ? Mid Cheshire YFL don't post results or have league tables until U11, they do store the results to make sure that they try and keep the teams in a stronger or weaker group (amber and blue) so one lot aren't getting battered every week etc. and will switch teams around the groups if one is too strong or too weak. I went to the FA Gareth Southgate Presentation about it to the Cheshire FA last year, all the salient points you mention were brought up, I asked the football foundation rep about funding for toilets, changing rooms etc. he basically laughed it off. Their answer is to play across bigger pitches with small pitches marked out in blue. But it's basically down to the individual leagues to stipulate if it's 1 or 2 5v5 7v7 etc. per age group, it's thrown up more questions than answers and nobody can answer at the moment, and it's only 18 months away
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Post by Squeekster on Feb 17, 2012 18:22:27 GMT
I ran an under 14's team through to under 17's (after managing in the Ansells league) and the problem is that most have no real coaching experience only what they have picked up playing.
Yes managers get sent on coaching courses but the first one is basic organization skills and usually they don't stick around long enough to progress through,the main reason being spare time and lack of interest.
Don't get me wrong there are lot of good blokes out there giving up their spare time and expense to help develop kids but most are parents who think they can do a better job than the last man and for that reason there is a lot of turn around in managers.
Results shouldn't matter up till at least 13in my opinion i watched the last 5 mins of one of our teams(not mine) and they lost though it was a final as i walked off to the car the manager sat the kids down and was laying into them with verbal abuse and 90% were crying,i raised this at a meeting and was told more or less to stick to my team and why we'd only won a few games 2 thirds through the season so i finished when the under 17's couldn't go any further.
proper coaching from the start is answer but the money is the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2012 18:44:14 GMT
let me start by saying this is NOT a dig at Stoke City or TP. It's just that watching last night, and yup we put a committed shift in, was like watching two different sports. And it all boils down to two words - Coaching (and) Mindset. We don't really love the ball in this country do we? From an early age, coaches puck the big kids, the boys who can put their foot in on a windy day at Trubshaw Cross. How much technical work do we do? Hmm. I coach and under 9 team and play in a league. Er, just why is it a league system at that age? It just makes lads too competetive and take their eye completely off technique and gameplan. is it better to win a league when you are 8 or become a better player, a more knowledgable player? How we play is an extension of kids footbll - high tempo, set pieces, tackles...exciting stuff. Only for England, it doesn't work, does it? You;ve seen what refs are like in Europe, it's a non-tackling game - and yet we have Stuart Pearce in the England set up. High up in the England set up. It's heartbreaking to see for me. My idea? -No leagues for kids under 13 - why have rsults when you're 8? Just builds undue pressure, elitism, and destroys kids morale. Let them enjoy it witout worrying they'll cost their team the game -Focus on skills, technique, awareness, loving the football -If there are matches it should be small sided and so lads/girls get the max number of touches in a game -don't pegieonhole kids. let them experience every single position on a pitch -It's an art to hide on a football pitch just. We allow our kids to do it at an early age by playing match after match after match on small pitches in big numbers - BUILD THE BLOODY NATIONAL CENTRE QUICKLY AND GET THE BEST COACHES IN Valencia players are coached to love receiving the football and to care for what they do for it. Can anyone explain what England, Stoke and any number of teams are coached to do? I hope every kid who watched last night will have seen how they loved the ball, every single one of them wanted it all the time. Their movement was so unbelievable. Cage, what cage? I agree 100% but I'm not sure English fans would prefer technique over power and pace. Hence the chants of boring when Valencia kept the ball.
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Post by Robo10 on Feb 17, 2012 19:15:00 GMT
Bunny I agree with that mate, perhaps there isn't a need for teams and leagues, just centres and coaching where the kids can have a mix of coaching then small sided games at the end
Perhaps kids should 'qualify' from those centres when ready rather than age based
I try my best for the kids I coach/manage, like you pretty much a one man show, but all my efforts are aimed at developing them, and for them to improve. Results really don't matter, obviously its always nice to pick up a win, but their effort and development is my reward.
The misguided attempts of the FA to try to become Spain though will see me and many likeminded folk off, and i reckon a lot of unaffilliated (and therefore unregulated) leagues
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Post by meirsquare on Feb 17, 2012 19:48:21 GMT
you can't coach natural ability, you either have it or you don't! yes you can, a young kid can have the basics but you can coach them how to do them better and also learn new ideas Mate, Natural ability is a gift, it's either there or it isn't. Like I say you can coach technique, tactics, cheating etc, but the balance, awareness and natural ability is either there or not.
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Post by stokhe on Feb 17, 2012 19:58:01 GMT
you can't coach natural ability, you either have it or you don't! yes you can, a young kid can have the basics but you can coach them how to do them better and also learn new ideas are you seriously saying you can coach natural ability into someone? have you ever kicked a ball ? ;D
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