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Post by march4 on Feb 6, 2012 21:46:32 GMT
I don't think we can draw any conclusions from our last 2 home games due to the adverse weather. Look at the winning goal at Wolves - a long diagonal ball which Walters fought for. It broke to our wingers who between them crossed for Crouch to score. A classic Stoke goal. 4-4-1-1 is working beautifully away from home with 5 wins and a draw in the last couple of months. I take your point at home, but I would argue that it is as much Wilson continually delaying the long ball forwards that is causing the problems than the front two. By the time Wilson decides what to do, Walters is covered by two men and can't even make their clearance difficult. It is certainly frustrating TP, as those behind the dugouts will testify. I would argue that to improve at home we need to be shifting the ball out of defence much more quickly to turn teams and make life more uncomfortable for them. The key to this is one Ricardo Fuller who frequently makes good use of the scruffy ball that the withdrawn striker develops. I actually think that Crouchy is better away from the Brit than at home and in spite of the big spend would have him on the bench for home games. From our present personnel, I would go with Walters as Duracell Bunny with Fuller in his customary position. If anyone knows of younger versions of Mama and Ric, they should get in touch with TP asap. i find it heard to blame a right footed player out of position for not getting the ball forward quickly enough, usually it's because he wants to get the ball on his right. Tony should stop getting frustrated with wilson and buy a left back IMO. that would help ethers immensely, as would getting pennant on from the start, it doesn't help wilson that ethers is currently doubled up on because there's only one winger to worry about. As you , say, away it's fine, have no problem with it. Good point re Wilson. The delay is often the time it takes to shift the ball to his right foot. Higgy must have lost his mojo for TP to send him out on loan. We need a left back and switch Wilson to the right.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Feb 6, 2012 22:02:39 GMT
i find it heard to blame a right footed player out of position for not getting the ball forward quickly enough, usually it's because he wants to get the ball on his right. Tony should stop getting frustrated with wilson and buy a left back IMO. that would help ethers immensely, as would getting pennant on from the start, it doesn't help wilson that ethers is currently doubled up on because there's only one winger to worry about. As you , say, away it's fine, have no problem with it. Good point re Wilson. The delay is often the time it takes to shift the ball to his right foot. Higgy must have lost his mojo for TP to send him out on loan. We need a left back and switch Wilson to the right. just don't get it, he had a couple of ropey games earlier in the year and bang, out of the side then shipped out, yet others are shoehorned in to the full back positioons despite looking like fish out of water, Higgy was our best full back last sason and gave us a balance that we haven't rediscovered since.
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Post by herkbloke on Feb 6, 2012 22:04:50 GMT
IMO, people confuse the 'widthdrawn striker' with the 'target man' role. Both utilise a No 10 that sits behind the most forward striker and both attempt to link the play from deeper to enable the forward stiker to his job. Trouble is, we think that this role has to be played via long ball i.e. someone like Mama, KJ or Crouch (who simply can't do this job). Well, it doesn't. Spuds use Van der Vart for this, Sunderlona, Seggeson and Everton Cahill. We can use JW and maybe play the ball to feet? Horses for courses but this role doesn't have to be hoof and hope. Used properly it's a very successful way of playing. But, whoever does it needs to work aarrdd and prepare to chase down lost causes. VDV and Cahill certainley do this. JW has to be the player for us in this role. Ric also, as he drags defenders all over the shop. Play Jerome or Crouch as the more traditional No 9.
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Post by march4 on Feb 6, 2012 22:44:31 GMT
IMO, people confuse the 'widthdrawn striker' with the 'target man' role. Both utilise a No 10 that sits behind the most forward striker and both attempt to link the play from deeper to enable the forward stiker to his job. Trouble is, we think that this role has to be played via long ball i.e. someone like Mama, KJ or Crouch (who simply can't do this job). Well, it doesn't. Spuds use Van der Vart for this, Sunderlona, Seggeson and Everton Cahill. We can use JW and maybe play the ball to feet? Horses for courses but this role doesn't have to be hoof and hope. Used properly it's a very successful way of playing. But, whoever does it needs to work aarrdd and prepare to chase down lost causes. VDV and Cahill certainley do this. JW has to be the player for us in this role. Ric also, as he drags defenders all over the shop. Play Jerome or Crouch as the more traditional No 9. We would need to buy plenty of midfielders to try such a plan. I believe it to be impractical when considering our current personnel. Our players are powerful, tall, strong, combatitive. They don't do passing or any other fancy stuff. The entire object of our effective football is you get the ball from back to front in less than a second. And it works and it is very difficult to combat and opponents hate playing against it, I expect us to improve our points total and position on last season with a system that is suited to the players at our disposal. Changing drastically would result in a close shave with relegation and the drop next season if the change was maintained. One further thing is that any successful organisation has an ethos understood by all members. Our method of playing football is our ethos. Take away that ethos and you damage the club as a whole unless you can replace it with something as powerful. Playing like other teams does not sound like a successful ethos to me. Walters and Fuller I can go with, just as I could Walters and Crouch or Jerome. But other combinations I just can't see - sorry.
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Post by skelman on Feb 6, 2012 23:01:42 GMT
For Christ's sake don't start start suggesting Wilson plays at RB. It would be yet another square peg round hole situation. We need a run RB playing at RB - cue WILKO!!
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Post by philm87 on Feb 6, 2012 23:46:35 GMT
I reckon Crouch could potentially do this.
Someone said the other day (I think it was PaulSpencer) that for our system to work properly we absolutely need a striker with pace (either Fuller or Jerome). Because we play deeper than most teams a pacy forward is even more useful because of the space left in behind their defence. Fuller was/is excellent at exploiting this space in the channels. Most of the corners/throw ins that we scored from in our first couple of seasons came from Ric running into these wide areasto latch on to a flick on from a long ball. Crouch cannot get in behind the defence in the same way.
Playing in a withdrawn role would have certain advantages for Crouch. He passes the ball better than most of our players, using space more intelligently and has a greater awareness of those around him. However, he is less effective in physical duels than a more traditional target man that plays on the shoulder of the last man. Allow him to drop into the space between our opponent's midfield and defence and the CBs would not always be willing to go with him. Most DMs would be too small to compete with Crouchy for the long ball.
Having thus received the long ball from either Ryan or Wilson, Crouchy would do a much better job than Walters with using it. He is more capable of threading a pass to Ric/Jerome or bringing our wingers into play, allowing us to push up as a unit.
This would have the added advantage that Crouchy would arrive late in the box, thereby making him more difficult for opponents to mark. Furthermore, although Jones is better at attacking the ball in the air in the box, Crouch is more accurate with his headed passes and flick ons which is another reason to try him in this role.
The obvious downside is that Crouch is not going to harry and chase down their midfield in the way that Walters does. He is too slow and cannot tackle to save his life. Therefore, for this to work, we would not be able to play both Delap and Whelan as those two are our slowest midfielders. Deano is not any better than Whelan but he is slightly quicker and has more stamina. WP is also obviously quicker and sharper than anyone else we have in CM. For Crouch to play in this role we would need the two CMs to push up slightly (although not necessarily leave the cage). Against top 6 teams we would obviously resort to the Duracell Bunny method to take out their deep lying playmaker and cram the midfield.
What d'you reckon?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 7, 2012 0:43:03 GMT
I reckon Crouch could potentially do this. Someone said the other day (I think it was PaulSpencer) that for our system to work properly we absolutely need a striker with pace (either Fuller or Jerome). Because we play deeper than most teams a pacy forward is even more useful because of the space left in behind their defence. Fuller was/is excellent at exploiting this space in the channels. Most of the corners/throw ins that we scored from in our first couple of seasons came from Ric running into these wide areasto latch on to a flick on from a long ball. Crouch cannot get in behind the defence in the same way. Playing in a withdrawn role would have certain advantages for Crouch. He passes the ball better than most of our players, using space more intelligently and has a greater awareness of those around him. However, he is less effective in physical duels than a more traditional target man that plays on the shoulder of the last man. Allow him to drop into the space between our opponent's midfield and defence and the CBs would not always be willing to go with him. Most DMs would be too small to compete with Crouchy for the long ball. Having thus received the long ball from either Ryan or Wilson, Crouchy would do a much better job than Walters with using it. He is more capable of threading a pass to Ric/Jerome or bringing our wingers into play, allowing us to push up as a unit. This would have the added advantage that Crouchy would arrive late in the box, thereby making him more difficult for opponents to mark. Furthermore, although Jones is better at attacking the ball in the air in the box, Crouch is more accurate with his headed passes and flick ons which is another reason to try him in this role. The obvious downside is that Crouch is not going to harry and chase down their midfield in the way that Walters does. He is too slow and cannot tackle to save his life. Therefore, for this to work, we would not be able to play both Delap and Whelan as those two are our slowest midfielders. Deano is not any better than Whelan but he is slightly quicker and has more stamina. WP is also obviously quicker and sharper than anyone else we have in CM. For Crouch to play in this role we would need the two CMs to push up slightly (although not necessarily leave the cage). Against top 6 teams we would obviously resort to the Duracell Bunny method to take out their deep lying playmaker and cram the midfield. What d'you reckon? Excellent, considered post philm ... and for me, the most constructive take I've read on the discussion so far. The achilies heel(s) with it (and I know that you already know it) are (as you've correctly pointed out): and The questions being ... will TP give up the first point and allow the second? At the end of the day he's simply going to have to isn't he? I've never been convinced that Crouch would work in our system (and I'm still not) primarily because I didn't believe Tone would adapt sufficently enough to make it work and to be fair he hasn't really shown any signs of adapting so far. The crazy thing is, if we'd signed Demba Ba or a player like Demba Ba to lead the line for us, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Contrary to the popular feeling on the message board, I really rate Walters and I think he's tailor made for the role of withdrawn striker for us (indeed far more so than Crouch is) but if we're going to include Crouch in the front two, then Walters is going to have to go because you simply have to have pace up top if you're going to play counter attacking, long ball football. EDIT: I forgot to mention that your point about resorting to the Duracell Bunny for the top 6 games, really is an excellent one - I couldn't agree more.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2012 0:47:33 GMT
Unfortunately I agree with that. I don't think Pulis would make the changes necessary to accomodate Crouch as he would see it as too risky. Which almost makes the whole debate superfluous!
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 7, 2012 0:50:16 GMT
That's certainly the problem, Paul.
Walters is the best suited to that role but out of him and Crouch you suspect Tone wouldn't drop his record signing.
The worry is that Jon's form has dipped dramatically to the point that he's offering us very little of late (mostly down to fatigue I suspect) but the more worrying issue is that I can't see the gaffer changing things at all and we'll keep plugging away with JW out wide when we're without a winger and he'll never recover his best form again this season without getting a well earned rest.
I'm struggling to know what the answer is without changing things round a bit but with our form of late I don't think we'll see a change as Tone will "dig in" as he likes to.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2012 0:52:28 GMT
Is it possible for him to accidentally stumble across a winning formula? Say if injuries or suspensions forced his hand and he absolutely had to tweak his system? This sounds pretty bad coming from someone who generally defends Pulis.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 7, 2012 0:56:14 GMT
Is it possible for him to accidentally stumble across a winning formula? Say if injuries or suspensions forced his hand and he absolutely had to tweak his system? This sounds pretty bad coming from someone who generally defends Pulis. It often happens to be honest and I'm certainly not anti-Tone either. In the first season we were crying out for Liam, Ethers, Beattie and Ric. Eventually it happened and we went on an unbelievable run of form.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2012 0:57:49 GMT
Always seems to come around about March time, why is that?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 7, 2012 1:02:53 GMT
That's certainly the problem, Paul. Walters is the best suited to that role but out of him and Crouch you suspect Tone wouldn't drop his record signing. The worry is that Jon's form has dipped dramatically to the point that he's offering us very little of late (mostly down to fatigue I suspect) but the more worrying issue is that I can't see the gaffer changing things at all and we'll keep plugging away with JW out wide when we're without a winger and he'll never recover his best form again this season without getting a well earned rest. I'm struggling to know what the answer is without changing things round a bit but with our form of late I don't think we'll see a change as Tone will "dig in" as he likes to. This really seems like I'm Crouch bashing and it's not intended to be at all but has Walters ever really consistently linked up well with him, apart from that one goal? We've seen Super John and Kenwyne strike up a good partnership but I suspect Walters looks better in his role when linked with Jones because he has somebody with a bit of pace as a partner. As I've said elsewhere ... I accept that Matty and Jermaine haven't been on top form this season but it hasn't been just about their form - if they had a striker in front of them who offered them some pace, it takes a defender away from the winger and allows the winger the option to lay balls into the channel. As it is this season, they have had one option and one option only - hit a pin point cross whilst being marked by two defenders, if they don't make that pin point cross then they invariably end up looking shit. Put a striker with pace and movement in front of them and they've got so many alternative options.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 7, 2012 1:09:03 GMT
I don't think you're Crouch bashing at all mate.
I'm a fan of Crouch but given how we utilise him it hasn't stopped me asking why we actually signed him other than him being 6 foot 7!
What the team needs is pace and guile. I think Ric is the man but I don't see Tone starting with him.
Even if he did I'm not sure who to play alongside him although if Kenwyne got his head in gear he could play in the hole.
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Post by philm87 on Feb 7, 2012 1:12:24 GMT
Ric was brilliant on Saturday in those conditions. I'm only in Row 3 so I can see him close up when he was turning their defenders inside out. I dunno how he kept his balance so well. You could really see their defenders bricking it. There will be a massive void when he finally does leave/retire.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 7, 2012 1:15:16 GMT
Yeah playing our very specific, rigid game plan - that hasn't changed one iota this season (although people like to pretend that it has) ...
I'd go with Walters behind Ric or Kenwyne behind Ric, or Walters behind Kenwyne.
However if there's a way to adapt our game plan and make it more flexible to accommodate Crouch them I'm just as up for that too, the problem being, I see absolutely zero evidence of that change happening or being likely to happen.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 7, 2012 1:20:53 GMT
Yeah playing our very specific, rigid game plan - that hasn't changed one iota this season (although people like to pretend that it has) ... I'd go with Walters behind Ric or Kenwyne behind Ric, or Walters behind Kenwyne. However if there's a way to adapt our game plan and make it more flexible to accommodate Crouch them I'm just as up for that too, the problem being, I see absolutely zero evidence of that change happening or being likely to happen. I think (if on form) Jon could play with Ric but the lack of a big target man for an easy out ball would probably throw most of our players completely! As it currently stands we have our point man dropping deep to win flick ons from the out ball with nobody in front of him as Jon is told to drop deep as well. One thing is for sure, it ain't working up top.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 7, 2012 1:26:47 GMT
I think the penny is starting to drop with Tone in as much as we've seen him move Crouchy into the hole for the Derby and Sunderland games and start Jerome up top. However the upshot of that, is that we lose a winger to keep Walters on the pitch. Obviously the ideal scenario would have been to sign a big, powerful, striker with pace to lead the line and then there wouldn't have been any need to change anything!
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