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Post by andyeswecan on Nov 2, 2011 11:17:58 GMT
Hello lads... View from an opposing fan here. Been having a read of your forum before and after the game on Monday, thought I'd post rather than be a lurker I picked up on a couple of quotes from some other threads: Goes to show it isn't who makes the most passes that wins the game as some people seem to think! However it shows we won the possession game and most of the aerial battles, but not where it matters Newcastle were as one dimensional as us I thought but their dimension worked. This is becoming a trend for opposition fans' views on Newcastle this season. At the moment (and, no, our current success won't last), Pardew is applying different game plans to different opponents. We had a plan on Monday and it worked. So why would we need to add a 2nd dimension when we were 2-0 up away from home and never really looking under threat? I, personally, got the most satisfaction from this win as any game for years. Not just because the Brit is a tough place to go (we got steamrollered here last year), but because we played a brilliant tactical game. At times, I had visions of Alan Hansen sitting in the dark in his big mansion, crusty sock in one hand, Aberdeen Angus in the other, purring erotically at Newcastle's defensive shape. As a Newcastle fan (as I'm sure you can understand), I've never seen defending like it. We've averaged around 55%+ possession in our games this season, but on Monday, we were happy to give up possession and play percentages on the break, knowing full well that Stoke didn't have the technical threat to damage us with the ball (admittedly, this put a lot of faith in our ability to stay resolute and organised from set plays, which surprised me). In short, and in relation to the quote at the top of the post, there WAS NO possession game for Stoke to win. It was turned into a scrappy game. Every Stoke throw in went long. Every time it did, Newcastle kept Cabaye (our ball player) outside the box with Obertan (our pace) on half way. 60% of the time, it went back out for another Stoke corner/throw. 40% of the time, it offered a chance to break quickly against a slow back four. I'm not going to get carried away here. I thought Stoke looked knackered and devoid of ideas, which made the task easier. I was guininely surprised that we managed to cope with the aerial threat as well... Huth, in particular, destroyed us home and away last year. On Stoke.... I think Delap's throws are a dangerous weapon, but to be relied on as your only tactic? Criminal. He's taking a place up in your midfield, and offering nothing on the field other than a throw in. Good player to bring off the bench, when opposing teams are flagging though. And that low, yorker-style, flat throw he tried a couple of times is AMAZING. But the lack of any other ideas from Pulis would worry me as a fan. Also, I don't understand the narrowing of the pitch when you have 2 of the most dangerous wide men outside the Top 6. In Etherington and Pennant, plus Palacios, Crouch, Walters, Jones there are players capable of some exciting football. If they're allowed to play. Etherington is quality. Pennany is quality. Jones is a beast in there. Crouch is Crouch. I've seen Stoke batter teams with quick, direct football down the wings, mixed with the famed set pieces, but this didn't happen on Monday. It was just throw in after throw in. Maybe it was just a one-off? I hope I'm not sounding patronising just because we've won the game. I'm just interested in your thoughts. How has it taken this long for Stoke's tactic to be beaten? And how has it come from an average, mid-table team like us? I'm not like 'Geordieboy' complaining about the whole 'anti-football' tag - I've seen enough of Stoke to believe there is much more ability there than the football 'public' in general give credit for. But, I've seen Stoke quite a few times and they've played with an intensity that was missing on Monday. Is the Europa League already taking it's toll? "Newcastle are no great shakes and have been lucky" We're probably a top ten team. No more, no less. We've been lucky in so much as we've not had many injuries, but the only other luck we've had was some woeful finishing by QPR, and a dodgy late decision against Wolves (a game, let's not forget, in which we were utterly dominant for 80 mins). Also, you could argue our fixtures have been easier, but you can only beat the teams you face. We've beaten everyone so far bar Villa (A), Spurs, Arsenal and QPR (A). And we could even have beaten Villa and Spurs (if we were to consider 'luck' actually going the other way). Sunderland fans will probably tell you we were lucky to beat them, but in truth, Mr Potato Head was out-thought in the 2nd half of that game too. A manager who's tactics when trailing involve getting as many forwards as he can find on the sidelines, and sticking them all up front together. We have Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea in a row after the international break. Fully expect 0 points. But then, where's the shame in that? Anyway... Stoke will finish Top 10, easy. Probably close to where we will finish. I'm surprised at the negative reaction on these boards. Good luck for the rest of the season.
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Post by frasier45 on Nov 2, 2011 11:28:00 GMT
Yes, I'm hoping its all to do with Europa Although tactical, you were far superior Excellent post and analysis Andy
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Post by hchpotter on Nov 2, 2011 11:29:49 GMT
I thought Newcastle's performance was the best by an away side since Chelsea in 2008-09.
A decisive keeper behind a very combative and well organised defence. Plenty of energy and drive in midfield and a good finisher up front. Pardew got his tactics spot on although it must be said that so far this season it has not been difficult to shackle Pennant and Etherington.
You won't finish above Man City, Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool or Spurs but I can't see why you can't finish 7th ahead of the likes of Villa and Everton. If Stoke could pinch 10th place I'd be more than happy.
The negative reaction on these boards is a reflection of the fact that Stoke fans are not as special as they'd like to think.
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Post by OldStokie on Nov 2, 2011 11:30:16 GMT
Good OP fella. Pretty much summed up Monday night. No, we don't always play like we did against you on Monday, but that was more to do with your tactical game than anything. You blotted us out almost completely, and the only thing we could do was try the 'bombardment'. We weren't helped by the sloppiest defensive display I've seen from us since we arrived in this league. We're usually strong in defence, but that display was diabolical.
You fully deserved your win.
OS.
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Post by wandonlodge2 on Nov 2, 2011 11:34:00 GMT
Good post.
We love football because it is hard to predict. I would be very surprised if anyone in July would have predicted that Newcastle would be the only undefeated team in the PL come November.
Watching you on Monday it just showed how big a part confidence plays in football. Your players looked assured, at ease and confident in their abilities and tactics. I think shipping out the 'big-time Charlies' was the best thing you ever did and your team spirit is very strong.
As you say - it won't last and you'll probably have a spell where you can't buy a win. Plus we are all just a few injuries away from trouble.
As for us, we are having a bad run after a fantastic start to the season. I think the Europa League is putting a strain on the players too. But we will bounce back because we have some good players and a manager who is mentally strong.
I think we are suffering a bad case of 'heightened expectations' syndrome at the moment. After a few years of constant success some of our supporters find a dip in form hard to take.
Anyway, very well played and good luck. I expect you to finish top ten and us somewhere between 8th and 15th.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Nov 2, 2011 11:35:00 GMT
Andyyeswecan, youv'e said nothing that most of us haven't being saying. The tactics on Monday night are similar to our away game i.e. 'hit and hope'. Pardew worked out we haven't got a midfield? We haven't had a midfield for four years! Also, Palacios was bought unfit and Ethers plays unfit! So, our threat wide and options wide and in CM are more limited than you saw last season.
As for Newcastle, I agree with your sober, overall assessment! But, you must be pleased with your French Foreign Legion?! Some, very, very skilfull players. You say that our posters are too negative but most of us would settle for just one Cabaye in CM. We're neither negative nor greedy just realistic about the technical level needed in The Prem!
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Post by StokieMatt on Nov 2, 2011 11:35:29 GMT
dont really just hope on delap, just every play who we normally count on played total wank.
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Post by darksideofthemoon on Nov 2, 2011 11:36:10 GMT
Now THIS is what honest appraisal and genuine exchange of views is all about.....I can find very little to quibble about in the OP's initial statement..... However, I honestly believe that the 'penalty' that ultimately led to the 1-3 scoreline was a farce....ours was borderline.....theirs was comical - or at least it would be if it wasn't so serious. I think the OP's evaluation of both our chances this season are reasonable....and if we manage to finish up somewhere around 10th after a progressive stint in Europe, I'll be 'appy as a kipper!!
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Post by manchesterpotter on Nov 2, 2011 11:37:28 GMT
Spot on. Sadly, it pretty much sums up a lot of our season so far. Monday night was like a Stoke City away performance - half arsed and woeful.
Good luck for the season ahead, hopefully we'll be in top 10 with you!
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Post by matisfaction on Nov 2, 2011 11:39:34 GMT
Yes, I'm hoping its all to do with Europa Although tactical, you were far superior Excellent post and analysis Andy Newcastle faded in the second half, If Stoke had put in their usual home performance we would have come away with the three points IMO. But in saying that you can only beat what's in front of you, Newcastle did well, it was a combination of good tactics and a little bit of good fortune, their first goal was a fairly routine offside decision that wasn't picked up by the linesman, but we did have plenty of opportunities to get back into the game which we failed to take. I knew that it would be a tough game as Newcastle are a decent team, you can't argue with their position in the league at the moment, not quite the no hopers that some people on this board thought they were.
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Post by wandonlodge2 on Nov 2, 2011 11:39:40 GMT
Now THIS is what honest appraisal and genuine exchange of views is all about.....I can find very little to quibble about in the OP's initial statement..... However, I honestly believe that the 'penalty' that ultimately led to the 1-3 scoreline was a farce....ours was borderline.....theirs was comical - or at least it would be if it wasn't so serious. I think the OP's evaluation of both our chances this season are reasonable....and if we manage to finish up somewhere around 10th after a progressive stint in Europe, I'll be 'appy as a kipper!! I was in Q-Railing opposite Boothen penalty area and I thought it was a penalty immediately. As for theirs I obviously didn't have a great view but I did see one of their players go flying - but why I couldn't see.
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Post by shep207 on Nov 2, 2011 11:43:22 GMT
Excellent OP. Makes a refreshing change from some of the absolute shit I have to listen to living up here..
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Post by stokemark on Nov 2, 2011 11:43:50 GMT
Andyeswecan
Pretty much agree with everything youve said and you have made some very intelligent observations about our team.
The Huth situation is a mystery to us all - Won every player of the season award going, massive threat at set pieces and hard as nails yet we are playing the (frankly piss poor) Woodgate instead.
There is a lot to be said that you have got rid of your 'big names' and we have brought in three 'retired' ex England internationals who (in my view anyway) are either past it or (in the case of Crouch) not suited to our style of play.
Stoke's game is all about power and pace going forward and to see Ba - the 'ideal' Stoke striker punish us in the way he did added an additional level of irony to a game that perhaps demonstrated one managers tactical nouce against another limited view of how the game should be played and a team set up.
Well done - Your boys deserved it
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Post by SCFC92 on Nov 2, 2011 11:46:32 GMT
Can't argue with the post fella, and it's nice to finally see opposition fans seeing the quality we actually possess, it's just a shame sometimes our manager has a little less faith, but he is the manager and he has got us where we are.
In regards to the Delap throw, you'll have probably noticed both at the match (people around me we're shouting him to hurry the fuck up) and on the board that they are getting tiresome. Yes they are an excellent way to fill the box, get some pushing and shoving going on, but after £70+ Million spent, I would expect us to be able to sometimes show some flair, perhaps extend the pitch as you said and actually out think the opposition instead of hoping our barrage will for want of a better phrase, 'smash yer back doors in.'
In my honest opinion, I feel we are a little devoid of a Plan B AND our manager is a little too defensive, at 2-0 down at home I would have expected the injured Wilson to come off for someone like palacios or whitehead and increase the attack instead of using 2 substitutions in the first half for defence.
We need to be bold, pacey and trust the quicker more creative players. We have a midfield destroyer in Palacios, he needs game time to get fitter.
Begovic Wilkinson Huth Shawcross Higginbotham Pennant Palacios Wilson Walters Jerome Jones
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Post by sirpineapple89 on Nov 2, 2011 12:19:49 GMT
I have no axe to grind with Newcastle. On Monday, you had us beaten all over the park and, if I'm honest, when I heard your starting XI and some of the subs, thought your squad is well ahead of ours in terms of ability.
I think a lot of our play was born out of desperation. It's not often we're 2-0 down at half-time at the Britannia. To me, Stoke panic as soon as we go behind in a game. We tend to rush things and make rash decisions. The throw is nowhere near as lethal as it was and, if I'm honest, I find it tiresome lobbing it in on EVERY occassion. There are games when the throw just isn't going to work and Monday was one of those games.
We're struggling all over at the minute
A) The defence. The once revered and lauded defence which we've inexplicably fucked around with top the point of criminality. We've replaced Robert Huth (who you, yourself, has just said 'murdered' you last season in both boxes) with a lifeless and weak Jonathan Woodgate. Now, I don't know how he was when he was with you, but I can't imagine he was that bad. I think his injuries have really taken their toll, which is a shame, but Pulis needs to realise that he's signed a duffer here and get Huth and Shawcross back at the heart of our defence. This coupled with our lack of left back options and it's not pretty at all.
B) The wingers. They're just not 'at it' at the moment and haven't been all season. Etherington, for my money, has been our worst performer so far. He just looks poor. He's not dribbling, attacking, passing or crossing well at all. Pennant, for all his hard work, looks frustrated. His lack of back up from the full back doesn't help. He's having to beat three or four men just to have the chance of a cross and he's just looks pissed off
C) Centre midfield. We're still insisting on playing Whelan and Delap in the centre. Now, I don't mind either but we really ought to be playing somebody with a bit more quality on the ball in there with them. Palacios, when fit, will be ideal. But I don't know if we're ever going to see him 'fit'. He seems to be involved in one match, then on the bench for weeks without making an appearance. If we continue with Whelan and Delap then we'll continue to struggle. We just never put our stamp on the game in midfield.
D) Tony Pulis. For all the good he's done, he doesn't half hamper us at times. He's the man that's got us here and he's the man that will probably keep us here. I love the man but he STILL makes baffling decisions. We knew Huth was a rubbish RB last season, yet he's shipped him out there on numerous occassions this season to accomodate Woodgate. He's just a bloody stubborn bugger and his tactics, when they don't work, look poor and uneducated even though he's the exact opposite.
We're at our best when we've got a good tempo. When we're good, we're very, very good (Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool) but when we're not at the races we look extremely one dimensional and lacking in any ideas (Newcastle, Sunderland, Swansea). It's just frustrating but I know in my heart of hearts that we can't ALWAYS play with such a quick tempo. Our lack of Plan B then become evident when we drop the pace. We haven't got any ball players in midfield to pass it about and take the sting out of a game and settle us down. Instead, we see what we saw on Monday. A kick and rush, throw-it-as-far-as-you-can mess that culminates in us looking one dimensional and pretty abject, which we aren't.
Pulis is never going to be any different, he's been in the game too long for him to change his ways now and, as long as he's here, we'll get some really good, exciting games mixed with some really, really bad ones. Our away form is shocking and our home form is what keeps us ticking over.
Back to Newcastle, looking at your squad I think you'll finish ahead of us. The only worry I'd have is your cover in defence. Fair enough you're doing well there at the moment but I just don't think any of your back four are THAT convincing. Your full backs are relatively small so I'd expect them to be targeted in future games as will target their lack of height and physicality. Coloccini finally looks like a decent centre back and Taylor will do you a good job but there's just always something unnerving about him.
You tactic'd us off the park on Monday and fair play for that. Like you say, you'll probably come out of the next few games with very few points but your excellent start should stand you in good stead. I also wish that our scouting network was a good as yours seems to be. Cabaye, Tiote, Gutierrez to name but a few seem like excellent buys.
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Post by buiskatthebrit on Nov 2, 2011 12:32:19 GMT
Cheers Andy. Great post. We'll get them 3 points back off ya in April !
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Post by andyeswecan on Nov 2, 2011 12:56:45 GMT
Cheers for the replies lads. with a lifeless and weak Jonathan Woodgate. Now, I don't know how he was when he was with you, but I can't imagine he was that bad. Woodgate is probably the best centre half I've ever seen at Newcastle, (up there with Coloccini). That was about 4 or 5 major injuries ago though. He still has class, but I can't imagine him being the same player he was then.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Nov 2, 2011 12:59:36 GMT
My goodness, sirpineapple you're back in your wrist-slashing mode? But again, you won't find many people disagreeing with anything you've posted. What is unnerving some people is.."Pulis is never going to be any different.." Quite so! Not even a little tinkering or experimentation! Just the usual 'Charge of The Tall Brigade'! Let's hope you're right about our home form 'ticking over". We will find out this month if your optimism is well founded? I most certainly want you to be right!
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Post by sirpineapple89 on Nov 2, 2011 13:00:24 GMT
Cheers for the replies lads. with a lifeless and weak Jonathan Woodgate. Now, I don't know how he was when he was with you, but I can't imagine he was that bad. Woodgate is probably the best centre half I've ever seen at Newcastle, (up there with Coloccini). That was about 4 or 5 major injuries ago though. He still has class, but I can't imagine him being the same player he was then. As I thought. I don't want to be hard on him because it's hardly his fault but he does look painfully slow and frightened to tackle.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 13:04:59 GMT
Yes, I'm hoping its all to do with Europa Although tactical, you were far superior Excellent post and analysis Andy Newcastle faded in the second half, If Stoke had put in their usual home performance we would have come away with the three points IMO. But in saying that you can only beat what's in front of you, Newcastle did well, it was a combination of good tactics and a little bit of good fortune, their first goal was a fairly routine offside decision that wasn't picked up by the linesman, but we did have plenty of opportunities to get back into the game which we failed to take. I knew that it would be a tough game as Newcastle are a decent team, you can't argue with their position in the league at the moment, not quite the no hopers that some people on this board thought they were. I didn't think Newcastle so much faded as sat back, knowing they'd got us sussed. We couldn't play our usual game because they didn't let us, closing down the wingers and putting two men on Crouch. We created barely anything, which was worrying.
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Post by swampySCFC on Nov 2, 2011 13:06:51 GMT
We've got our own eye for talent.
Jon Walters and Demba Ba are two recent ones
Collocini had a fair game on Monday but for a big money buy who was part of the relegation side hes taken a long time to get his act together. And I wouldnt swap him for 3 of our centre halves
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 13:10:34 GMT
We've got our own eye for talent. Jon Walters and Demba Ba are two recent ones Collocini had a fair game on Monday but for a big money buy who was part of the relegation side hes taken a long time to get his act together. And I wouldnt swap him for 3 of our centre halves We're daft for not looking abroad though. Newcastle have done fantastically to get those players in. I don't see the argument for not doing that.
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Post by matisfaction on Nov 2, 2011 13:43:35 GMT
Newcastle faded in the second half, If Stoke had put in their usual home performance we would have come away with the three points IMO. But in saying that you can only beat what's in front of you, Newcastle did well, it was a combination of good tactics and a little bit of good fortune, their first goal was a fairly routine offside decision that wasn't picked up by the linesman, but we did have plenty of opportunities to get back into the game which we failed to take. I knew that it would be a tough game as Newcastle are a decent team, you can't argue with their position in the league at the moment, not quite the no hopers that some people on this board thought they were. I didn't think Newcastle so much faded as sat back, knowing they'd got us sussed. We couldn't play our usual game because they didn't let us, closing down the wingers and putting two men on Crouch. We created barely anything, which was worrying. They closed us down at every opportunity in the first half, you can't keep that up for 90mins, so sitting back and hitting us on the break suited them perfectly as they were two up and didn't have much to lose if they remained solid at the back. I still think that a typical Stoke home performance would seen a different result. We "were not at the races" at all on monday and it showed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2011 13:44:49 GMT
I didn't think Newcastle so much faded as sat back, knowing they'd got us sussed. We couldn't play our usual game because they didn't let us, closing down the wingers and putting two men on Crouch. We created barely anything, which was worrying. They closed us down at every opportunity in the first half, you can't keep that up for 90mins, so sitting back and hitting us on the break suited them perfectly as they were two up and didn't have much to lose if they remained solid at the back. I still think that a typical Stoke home performance would seen a different result. We "were not at the races" at all on monday and it showed. They made sure we couldn't play our normal game though - that we couldn't was down to them shutting the wingers down.
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Post by Pugsley on Nov 2, 2011 13:50:40 GMT
Good post. We love football because it is hard to predict. I would be very surprised if anyone in July would have predicted that Newcastle would be the only undefeated team in the PL come November. Watching you on Monday it just showed how big a part confidence plays in football. Your players looked assured, at ease and confident in their abilities and tactics. I think shipping out the 'big-time Charlies' was the best thing you ever did and your team spirit is very strong. As you say - it won't last and you'll probably have a spell where you can't buy a win. Plus we are all just a few injuries away from trouble. As for us, we are having a bad run after a fantastic start to the season. I think the Europa League is putting a strain on the players too. But we will bounce back because we have some good players and a manager who is mentally strong. I think we are suffering a bad case of 'heightened expectations' syndrome at the moment. After a few years of constant success some of our supporters find a dip in form hard to take. Anyway, very well played and good luck. I expect you to finish top ten and us somewhere between 8th and 15th. Why is it a good post? When Stoke fans point out the over reliance on the throw, our technical deficiencies, TP's lack of tactics etc you're all over it like a rash. This bloke is saying the same things that some of us have been saying for the past 2 years. It's not a good post at all - it's a great post. 100% CORRECT.
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Post by matisfaction on Nov 2, 2011 13:52:30 GMT
They closed us down at every opportunity in the first half, you can't keep that up for 90mins, so sitting back and hitting us on the break suited them perfectly as they were two up and didn't have much to lose if they remained solid at the back. I still think that a typical Stoke home performance would seen a different result. We "were not at the races" at all on monday and it showed. They made sure we couldn't play our normal game though - that we couldn't was down to them shutting the wingers down. Even so, opportunities were still there to be taken but poor decision making in the final third was another thing that went against the team on Monday. Regardless of Newcastle's tactics, if Stoke had come out like they usually do at home we would have got something out of the game, even at 1-2 we did look like we could force a draw, obviously the second pen was the decider.
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Post by Pugsley on Nov 2, 2011 13:57:55 GMT
Stoke were outcoached last night. Pardew knew what he was doing and our Manager didn't have have the answers.
Add that to most of the players having really poor games then the result was inevitable.
TECHNICAL DEFICIENCIES!
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Post by cousindupree on Nov 2, 2011 14:55:08 GMT
The real worry for me is that a coach as average as Pardew sussed us out and nullified our tactics relatively easily. We did however have a nightmare in defence. We have rarely looked solid at the back and most know why. The problem is that when a team has us by the throat and we resort to aimless hoofball we have no game changer on the bench only straight one to one replacements. Only Rik and Tuncay have provided us with that unpredictability. With nothing different offered from the bench the manager doesn't have the tactical nouse to come up with a Plan B. And he never has, I wonder if Coyle can do the same on sunday. If he does then I might get a little worried.
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Post by matisfaction on Nov 2, 2011 14:58:55 GMT
They closed us down at every opportunity in the first half, you can't keep that up for 90mins, so sitting back and hitting us on the break suited them perfectly as they were two up and didn't have much to lose if they remained solid at the back. I still think that a typical Stoke home performance would seen a different result. We "were not at the races" at all on monday and it showed. They made sure we couldn't play our normal game though - that we couldn't was down to them shutting the wingers down. Chelsea did exactly the same thing, other teams have also tried this tactic but we've still managed to get results. It wasn't so much as their tactics nullified us completely. If that was the case then we wouldn't have scored and been pushing for an equaliser for the last 10 minutes. The team were not as productive as they usually are, lots more passes going astray than usual, nothing was going right at all, even when we had time and space to do something, Newcastle's tactics hampered us even further.
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Post by nickstokefc on Nov 2, 2011 17:30:05 GMT
andyeswecan,,, that write up is spot on
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