Hutton enquiry

[angescfc]

It's gotta be a fix!

[JoeinOz]

Alistair Campbell says Blair is the victim of a vicious campaign.

I'm sure the parents of Iraqi children who died have lots of sympathy with poor ickle Tony.

Who were the REAL victims of a vicious campaign?

[Lakeland Potter]

I think both of you are missing the point. Hutton looks to have done a pretty sound job within his remit, which was to examine the circumstances surrounding the row between the Government and the BBC and its role in the eventual death of a civil servant.

Within those limited terms of reference he has done pretty well. # Sloppy reporting by a BBC reporter and even sloppier editorial supervision and management of staff by the BBC. # Inadequate Personnel "care" by the MOD. # Action by a Civil Servant in speaking to the media, without discussing it in advance with his employers as his job description required him to do. # Sloppy but not culpable handling of intelligence by the Government.

The REALLY interesting stuff would come out at the enquiry we have never had - an enquiry into the Intelligence Services performance in the run up to the Iraq war and whether the Government was too willing to believe everything it was told by its own Intelligence and that of the USA. That's what both politicians and public should be calling for!

[RipRoaringPotter]

I think the media should now have a look at themselves and re-address the way they deal with people.

Their constant demand for a breaking story often leads to people lives being ruined or even ended (as in this case). They often lose sight of the fact that they are writing stories about real people and the fact that these stories can have massive repercussions. Maybe this whole episode may give them a much needed smack in the mouth and they might start taking a bit more care

[hellsbells]

Yeh, you think so..

no mate

[Lakeland Potter]

Very true, Helen. Every time something like this happens we get the media (who happened to get rapped over the knuckles) promising to reform themselves. Deep down we all know that they won't.

I have a lot of time for the BBC when comparing them with the other media but their reporters are as capable of poor reporting at times as the scum working for some of the tabloids. I wish the top dogs at the Corporation would accept that - and not act in future as if they alone were perfect.

[JoeinOz]

Yes good points there Fornside.

Looking at the Hutton enquiry aand media coverage of it, it seems to have provided the smokescreen Tony needed to cover the more poignant issues at stake.

He sent British people to die on the basis of a lie.

[abharsair]

he did indeed Joe, but I guarentee both him and the tit from across the water will get away with it scott free....when really lets face it, its war crimes!

[JoeinOz]

Thing is though Abharsair you are only a war criminal if you lose.

[abharsair]

Oh I don't know "Slobalob the lets kill lots of ethnic people pot man" won and he was held accountable....

[RAF]

I think Left Wing comments should be left for parliament!!
Who were the real victims?
I'll fucking tell you!
The thousands of poor cunts who got sent to a shitty desert with piss poor equipment to do a fucking shit job for some yank prick who regards us as little more than an aircraft carrier for the US of A!!
Thatcher would never have let her boys be treated like that!!
Gooooarrrrn Maggie!!

[Lakeland Potter]

You are probably too young to remember the details, RAF, but Maggie and her government ignored detailed intelligence saying that Argentina were planning to invade the Falklands leading to a good number of unecessary deaths and loss of ships. Not only did she ignore the intelligence but she announced that the supply ship Endurance was to be axed - almost as if she was giving a green light to the Junta.

As I recall the Foreign Secretary (Lord Carrington) resigned when many (me included) thought that the failure was at a higher level.

[abharsair]

Touché

[RAF]

I was actually 12 when the Falklands kicked off, my point being , faults aside and probably bad advice from other ministers she eventually did the right thing!
Anyway my original point was about the real victims of war!
Surely anyone dying isnt a good thing, and I certainly don't rate an Iraqi Childs life any more or less precious than any of my armed forces mates, its all too easy to see a dead or injured child and get matter of fact about it, but a dead Father, Mother, Uncle, Cousin etc is just the same, just doesn't tug the right heart strings for the Press!!

[abharsair]

I think you should all watch the video to System of a Down - Boom

It shows Bush and Blair for what the both are, a pair of cunts!

Cunts whom should be held accountable! The best point of it is, in America BEFORE the war, they had a bidding war for a contract to REBUILD Iraqs oil fields!

WANK!

[Lakeland Potter]

RAF I wouldn't disagree with anything you said about the equality of life - whoseever life it is.

I do think, though that you have a rose timted view of Maggie. Carrington resigned because he was an honourable man and he was responsible for the Intelligence services. But it was common knowledge at the time that there was no failure of intelligence - an invasion was being considered by the Argies and all the signs were there. I remember a late night chat show just before the war when some Argentinian scrap Merchants had landed illegally on South Georgia. The consensus of the pundits was that anyone who thought this was about scrap metal must be a lunatic - the Argentinians were checking to see if we did anything - we didn't of course!

The decision to announce the withdrawal of Endurance came from Maggie and the Treasury. The Minister of Defence at the time (John Nott) was a weak individual who did not stand up to Maggie as he should have done. Not being an honourable man, he didn't resign but was quietly "retired" after the war.

A friend of mine in the Customs in Bristol where Endurance was based went on Endurance before the war and just after the decision to withdraw her was announced - he was told the background by some of the officers - including the fear that it sent out the wrong signals to Argentina. I boarded several of the Plymouth based frigates when they returned from the war and raised the subject with their officers. They confirmed the story my friend had heard from the Endurance.

The Falklands could easily have been prevented if Maggie had not been so determined to save the cost of one Naval supply ship. Its ironic that the war saved Maggie's bacon because her ratings before the war were at an all time low - she had no chance of winning the next election. After the war she was a hero - and it didn't half piss off many many service personnel who knew the full story.

[Lakeland Potter]

Incidentally, boarding frigates after the war made me realise just how close we came to losing it. If the Argentinian bombs had been in better condition we probably would have lost. I myself boarded two frigates where air launched bombs had passed right through the helicopter hanger deck without exploding. On one of the ships I spoke to a rating who had been in the hanger at the time!

Brave blokes they all were but very lucky to have survived - and they needn't have been there with a bit of foresight by the government.

[maucek]

I watched the whole of BBC Breakfast News and I have to say I'm appalled at the BBC.

I can forgive sloppy reporting in the first instance but the arrogant, complacent way they've acted since is unforgivable.

Then after they've been heavily critisised by an independant inquiry, they troop out loads of "impartial" commentators who all stangely seen to agree that Hutton was harsh on the BBC. And then showing ignorant and cynical members of the public saying things like, "Oh you can't trust the government these days y'know" etc.

The first thing Paxman said on newsnign last night was...

so the man appointed by the government, sides with the government

...implying bias. Strange that up untill the the report became public they never once suggested that Hutton may be biased against them.

Why don't they simply apologise, accept Hutton's conclusions and those critisised should all resign instead of having one sacrificial scapegoat.

They've done enough to damage the integrity of a good man who, at least in this instance (if not all), was entirely blameless IE Honest Tone himeself.

[RipRoaringPotter]

maucek,

Damm right mate.

Before the enquiry everyone was saying (Government, MoD, BBC) how good a judge Lord Hutton is and that he will get to the bottom of this episode. Now he has come back with a result that is not to the liking of the BBC they start questioning his credentials. Patchetic, absolutly pathectic!!!!!

P.S. I bet someone's going to jump on your back for calling him 'Honest Tone'. Unless you were talking about Pulis that is

[jaykaye]

The Hutton enquiry has been the most disgraceful waste of tax payer’s cash I can ever recall. A bloke no one has ever heard of tops himself so we waste millions of pounds trying to find out why. It was easy to see from the offset he opened his gob a bit too wide to the wrong people and couldn’t handle the consequences. As for the fuss now wasn’t Michael Howard rubbing his hands last week mocking Tony Blurt about the possible outcome of this enquiry? The fact is regardless of the outcome someone was moan their bollocks off. And at the end of it all who gives a shit anyway? It will be forgotten about in a couple of days and Plympton Potter AKA Fornside will have a lot less typing to do.
Thatcher and Paxman are a pair of twats together, separated at birth perhaps?

[Lakeland Potter]

Surely, Spidey, that should be the other way round - ie - fornside AKA plymptonpotter? ;D

Or, as Rex would say: fornside AKA plymptonpotter AKA spiderman

[staffsstokie]

Think Hutton did a good job, although it is slightly suspicious that the government appeared to be the only party involved who werent guilty of anything. But it was in theory a "independant" enquiry so the outcome haS to be accepted.
Would likea full enquiry into the legality of the war in the first place mind you, see Tony squirm a bit then!

[maucek]

Bye bye Greg!

That'll learn ya for critisising Honest Tone!

[greyman]

RAF

What's this about Maggie and her boys? Under the Thatcher Government the Americans invaded a British protectorate country without informing us in advance. They also launched a bombing raid on libya from British bases without informing us.

What did Maggie do?

[jaykaye]

greyman said:

What did Maggie do?

Remember the fantastic Poll Tax?

[maucek]

Spiderman said:

Remember the fantastic the Poll Tax?

[jaykaye]

Spiderman said:

Remember the fantastic Poll Tax?

How the fuck can we ever forget it? Some people are still paying it off ;D

[angescfc]

I'm too young for that!

[TheWiseMaster]

Gilligan accused Blair and Co of telling porkies

In fact it was Gilligan and the Beeb who backed him up who were lieing and quite rightly the top brass have fallen on their swords

Kelly was at fault and knew he had made an error which he could not live with - end of story

The WMD dossier is another question - Blair wanted it but if our top men from MI5 produced it then they were at fault

Blairs big mistake was giving us the dossier at all - he could have just said Sadam is a threat and were backing the yanks - which is what he did anyway

The real problem with politicians and the media is a lack of respect. Yes ask questions but there is a right and wrong way. Telling the world someone is a liar without very good evidence is the wrong way.

And if we treated the politicians better who knows, we might not end up with the ones we have and currently deserve

[Lakeland Potter]

Good summary of the situation WM. What I can't understand is that the BBC (who I have a lot of time for) took so long to recognise that Gilligan had embroidered his original report so that it did not match the notes he had taken of the interview.

Alarm bells should have been ringing as soon as the Government protested so strongly - it should have been a few minutes work to discover the discrepancy when a statement justifying much of the report, but accepting the inaccuracy, could have been issued to defuse the situation.

Kelly put himself in a no win situation and I suspect Gilligan knew this and that was why the report went further than Kelly had done in the interview. Gilligan knew that, as Kelly had not been authorised to do the interview, he would hardly go public straight away and admit that he was the source but that what he said had been embroidered.

How Gilligan is not suspended pending a disciplinary hearing, baffles me!