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Post by Funky on Mar 23, 2009 11:57:45 GMT
Anyone been down Clough Street in Hanley lately?
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 23, 2009 12:09:33 GMT
rubbish
he and Waddo were great friends, fact.
and he attended many functions at Stoke in the seventies.
he has actually stated that he admired Waddo's management and his team's style of play.
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Post by Titan Uranus on Mar 23, 2009 12:17:52 GMT
well said carverdoone
spot-on
two premierships and two European Cups with teams that were nowhere.... unbelievable
one of the best in my opinion.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 12:20:45 GMT
Carverdoone:
As has been said, Clough did an amazing job with Derby and Forrest but other managers have also achieved great things. In particular, Bobby Robson took over an (even less) fashionable club in Ipswich (not even a City in name or size). He took them to the second Division Championship and won the First Division Championship at the first attempt. He also won an FA Cup (Cloughie never did) and they won the European Cup Winners Cup. He also went on, no matter what some might say, to be a pretty successful England manager. All of this he did with dignity, modesty and good humour. That is where he rates above Clough for me.
True, Clough was never given the chance for England but many, myself included, suspect that his style would not have worked at International level and he was so abrasive that I suspect his term as England manager would have been short and bitter. We'll never know!
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Post by Hiram on Mar 23, 2009 12:26:29 GMT
I think it was the UEFA Ipswich won with the cast from Escape to Victory.
Robby Bobson also did exceptionally well abroad.
Much as I liked Clough, Peter Taylor's role in the success of Derby and Forest shouldn't be underestimated.
Looking forward to seeing the film though, I thought the book was ace.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 23, 2009 12:28:36 GMT
Not disputing that carver BUT, IMHO, not the greatest ever. He transformed a talented Forest side to relegation and Leeds was a disaster.
He did many great things but since he died he does seem to have acquired the status of sainthood and the deficiencies get overlooked.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2009 12:31:28 GMT
Not disputing that carver BUT, IMHO, not the greatest ever. He transformed a talented Forest side to relegation and Leeds was a disaster. He did many great things but since he died he does seem to have acquired the status of sainthood and the deficiencies get overlooked. Arguably only half the manager without Peter Taylor beside him as well. The partnership was instrumental to his success. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 23, 2009 12:32:07 GMT
Bobby Robson took over an (even less) fashionable club in Ipswich (not even a City in name or size). He took them to the second Division Championship and won the First Division Championship at the first attempt.
Underrated Alf won the league with Ipswich. Robson did great with them though yes.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 12:34:11 GMT
Billyonions:
Your right mate it was the UEFA Cup and it's true that Bobby Robson was a very successful manager on the continent. They even erected a statue to him in Portugal. I wouldn't want to belittle Clough's achievements at all, you was pretty remarkable. I just think, a;longside the likes of Robson, it's a little easier to see the character flaws that blighted Clough.
Still one of the all-time greats though and due respect fro me.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 23, 2009 12:35:56 GMT
He never came to terms with the fact he never made it up with Taylor and his death hit him hard.
Clough insisted until his dying day that if Taylor had been at Leeds with him they'd have won everyone round and been there for many years of success. He spent lots of his time at Leeds pleading with Taylor to join him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2009 12:45:24 GMT
He never came to terms with the fact he never made it up with Taylor and his death hit him hard. Clough insisted until his dying day that if Taylor had been at Leeds with him they'd have won everyone round and been there for many years of success. He spent lots of his time at Leeds pleading with Taylor to join him. Taylor spent much of their feud reaching out to Clough to try and patch things up and Clough was stubborn in refusing, which made Taylor's death hit him all the harder. Joe have you read "Provided You Don't Kiss Me" by Duncan Hamilton (I think) which covers his time at Forest? |
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 12:45:32 GMT
Cloughie was 'highjacked' by player power at Leeds and never stood a chance. The once-great players there needed to be 'shipped out' so that Cloughie could do his job but that was never going to happen as, to the Leeds fans, those players were bigger legends than Clough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2009 12:53:05 GMT
Cloughie was 'highjacked' by player power at Leeds and never stood a chance. The once-great players there needed to be 'shipped out' so that Cloughie could do his job but that was never going to happen as, to the Leeds fans, those players were bigger legends than Clough. I think Clough himself deserves a lot of the blame for what happened at Leeds. He probably shouldn't have taken the job and even though what he said about Leeds being a team of filthy cheats was right, he was up against it from the off. He then didn't help himself with some of his actions as boss and without Taylor to counsel him he kept making things worse. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 23, 2009 12:55:30 GMT
Yes I read it robVandurzen. It's brilliant and heartbreaking. The sad demise of a once spectacular man.
Thing is methods that worked at Derby weren't going to work at Leeds. Getting over the top of players wasn't going to work with seasoned pro's who had been round the block and had the medals to prove it. Especially when it was known how they idolised Revie........and publicly resented Cloughs regular appearances in the media to slag off their patriarch.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 13:04:12 GMT
JoeinOZ:
You're right mate, Sir Alf did do a Bobby Robson before Bobby and it was an amazing achievement at the time. Amazing that 2 managers took over such a 'homely' little club and both managed to reach to pinacle of English Football.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 23, 2009 13:14:25 GMT
Alf always gets overlooked. As well as the league with a small provincial club won the World Cup. But he remains as overlooked now as he was disliked at the time.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 13:19:04 GMT
True. And what's more, my dad tells me that Alf Ramsey was a fantastic player.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 23, 2009 13:23:32 GMT
When Poland knocked us out the press ran through the corridors hands aloft in triumph. "We've got him now"
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 13:28:45 GMT
Fancy wanting to get rid of the man that won you the world cup!!!!
The only modern day equivalent I could think of would be wanting to get rid of a man who took your club to the premier league (Sorry PHWS couldn't resist).
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Post by lordb on Mar 23, 2009 13:32:02 GMT
hmmm
Ramsey,Robson & Clough all decent players & all top managers.
Clough edges it for me beacuse he did it with two provincial clubs.
I'm probably the only person in the country who thinks that he WOULDNT have cut it as England manager though (unlike the other two of course),he'd have got bored stupid.
- to be fair he probably would have been superb in a tournament though.
Imho one of the factors in Engkands failures over the years has been an inability to deal with the pressure.
Clough would have been the centre of the worlds media in any tournament & as such the players could get on with things better.
Morinho now is similar in that aspect.
+ of course unlike say Sven he would have been - probably - adept at changing things around mid-tournament & within games.
Unlike Sven though the qualifying periods would have done his tree in. not good for an alcoholic.
in hindsight The FA were correct not appoint him,ironically,post Revie but what they should have done is said thanks very much to Ron Greenwood for qualifying for '82 & given Clough the job just for the summer.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 23, 2009 13:41:28 GMT
Its a tough call and we'll all have differing opinions but Alf and Bobby both achieved wonders with Ipswich. Alf went on to win the World Cup with England and so would be most people's automatic choice of the three. Bobby went on to go very close to emulating Alf as well as European Club success and becoming a hero abroad. And Cloughie, well yes winning the League with Derby and Forrest as well as two European Cups is simply amazing.
My vote would go to Bobby personally, despite the World Cup because I think he was woefully unlucky not to win the World Cup and the broad spectrum of his managerial success throughout Europe. On top of which, as I said earlier, Bobby is a true gentleman who has carried his success and failure with equal dignity and modesty.
In truth; three brilliant managers and we all just 'take our pick'.
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Post by march4 on Mar 23, 2009 21:44:12 GMT
Cloughie for me, because he took Derby from nowhere to the title but then achieved even more with Forest.
At Leeds he needed to be given a free hand. Had he got rid of the big headed players, then with McGovern, O'Hare and a few reserves he would have given them unparalleled success.
Every book on leadership warns against going down the Cloughie route and yet I consider him to be one of the greatest leaders of men ever.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 24, 2009 3:56:06 GMT
Had he got rid of the big headed players, then with McGovern, O'Hare and a few reserves he would have given them unparalleled success.
He didn't have time though. He wasn't there long enough.
I also doubt he'd have been a brilliant England manager. You need a level of diplomacy in that job and he didn't have it.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 24, 2009 7:14:18 GMT
Yes I agree. England would have been a job that I suspect Clough would have grown to hate. I agree that he was a great manager March, but his own peronality alienated many and he would always have encountered conflict. Truely GREAT managers, in any sphere of life, have to tread a fine line and take a balanced view in an effort to get the maximum from those in their charge. I'm not sure Cloughie was always capable of that and his latter days at Forrest were pretty awful and there was an almighty shadow over his conduct at that time.
His achievements are the stuff of legend but, as I stated earlier, he was ultimately a flawed genius.
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Post by nottinghamstokie on Mar 24, 2009 7:35:15 GMT
Don't forget that the book is "based on real events", but a lot of the "events" described never "factually" happened, and a lot of the conversations ( esp between Taylor and Clough) were "this is probably the sort of thing he/they would have said"
This isn't me being clever, Peace himself has said it's not a TRUE work of total "non-fiction"
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Post by hamburgpotter on Mar 24, 2009 8:22:47 GMT
Cloughie was a bit like Marmite, you either loved him or hated him,at the time I hated him but looking back now he was like a breath of fresh air to footy in the 70,s. Having lived in nottingham as well , nobody had a bad word against him even when they were relegated under him....them were the days when all the top managers were either English or Jock how we could do with going back to that now eh ? Shanks,Waddo,Revie,Robson,Clough,Busby,Bertie Mee, not a foreigner amongst them!!
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 24, 2009 8:32:24 GMT
hamburg:
Bertie Mee was living proof that you don't need to have been a top player to be a top manager. You do, at least need a coach with a broad footballing depth but to actually manage you need to be a good MANAGER (quite apart from football). He never kicked a football in anger and yet took Arsenal to the League and Cup Double (Bastard!).
Arsen Wenger played French Second Division football. Graham Taylor played non-league football and our own dearly beloved Waddo played for Crewe.
Great players often make dreadful managers and why should anyone believe that, because you played football, you can manage a group of men. the above are just a few examples of top managers that played football at lower levels or not at all.
Don,t know why I mention this but I think it's interesting.
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Post by hamburgpotter on Mar 24, 2009 8:39:39 GMT
Doz, and dont forget the messiah that plied his trade at Bristol Rovers !! But on your one I was trying to think of a defender that ever made it as a good manager ?? All the ones I think about were shit....Shilton,Pearce,Butcher,Kamara,Terry Cooper,Bremner,the list goes on,can anybody think of a half decent defender that cut it as a manager ?
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Post by Hiram on Mar 24, 2009 8:44:35 GMT
Denis Smith?
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Post by dozintheseventees on Mar 24, 2009 8:53:58 GMT
Hmburg:
I may well be wrong but I always thought that Alf Ramsey was a full back. No doubt someone will put me right.
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