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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 3, 2023 16:35:20 GMT
Reminds me of this thread
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 16:55:43 GMT
The drug war (even if they use the expression "gang war" here instead) will only stop when people totally stop using drugs - both according to our former and our present Prime Minister. So that's their goal. They will succeed, they say, even it will be done with force. Good luck with that one then. Humans always have and always will take drugs, legal and illegal. Not just humans too, many mammals seek out substances that alter their mental state 🙂 Better keep it on the down low tho, the Daily Mail will be insisting the police don diving gear if they hear about it 😂
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 17:05:53 GMT
Not to mention these junkie Lemurs getting high on their filth 😃
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 17:09:31 GMT
Good luck stopping, let alone searching, some of these bad boys 🙂
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 18:12:23 GMT
I can see both arguments. I grew up with people who used cannabis as teenagers and are now fully functioning adults. It's a phase you try and grow out of in most instances, or understand your tolerance levels if they continue. Others from that same group started with cannabis, then dealt it, then ended up on harder drugs, dealt them, ended up in prison; then ultimately became dependent on whatever filth they'd been peddling and died as a result of years of abusing their bodies with whatever it was. They offered no real benefit to society, rarely worked and were anti-social in the extreme with their attitudes and behaviours over the years. They're no great loss. If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment. However undertaking this and delivering the necessary support services should be government controlled, staffed and managed. It should not be contracted out for organisations to bid to manage and for their chief executives and managers to enrich themselves from e.g Brighter Futures, Honeycomb Group etc. "If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? I fully agree with your last paragraph, as the ex Police Captain says in the video, it's a health issue not a law issue. I'm actually curious to know if you have any views on what the ex Police Captain said?
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Post by gawa on Oct 3, 2023 20:23:21 GMT
I don’t doubt that most cannabis users stick with just cannabis, but of those who do use the really bad drugs, how many maybe wouldn’t if a mild drug like cannabis wasn’t available in the first place, and in that case would legalising cannabis lead to an increase, albeit a small one, in say heroin users? This is one of the aspects leading to the swedish A Drug Free Generation standpoint we are thought at school and live by here. The main issue with drugs is most of them (if not all) are addictive, so you can never irresponsibly say the users take them voluntarily. The Swedish politicians are convinced people don't need drugs. That's why they now deal with it, step by step, they say. First out the big cleaning act where they put everyone in prison, mostly back home abroad, then start preventing everyone from start using drugs in the first place. And they have explained it's a very easy task if everybody offering drugs aren't around anymore. The goal is of course to build a future society where drugs won't be needed. The present and the former Prime Ministers even said priority number one isn't even the persons deep into the shit, but to prevent anyone from testing any drug in the first place. The question is how do you define a drug Musik? Tobacco, alcohol, sugar, coffee, tea, snus, antidepressants, morphine etc.. They're all addictive and some of them are certainly drugs. But I don't think they intend to ban what's already legal? Not sure how Sweden tackle their current issues. Immigration has certainly contributed significantly too from the research I've done and maybe some people are worried about saying that incase they get called racist. Just from the very little reading I've done alot of people seem to think poorly thought out integration has resulted in alot of immigrants arriving and getting a home but then not really having the right support in place to help them integrate and contribute. And then poverty kicks in and it all becomes a bit gang land. The freedom of movement probably contributes too as these gangs tend to stretch across and through Europe's borders. Unfortunately I'm not sure if tougher drug laws will solve the issues Sweden is currently facing. And I'm not really too sure what the solution is either. I guess with English speaking countries it probably is easier to immigrate to given most people will likely know some English through music or movies. Whereas with Sweden I think most probably arrive with no understanding of the language or culture. Then to add to that I don't think Sweden has as much history of immigration compared to the UK for example. So there aren't really expat networks or generations of immigrants already there to help the new ones integrate. Which very much creates a them and us. The stats don't lie though, the immigrants are contributing to alot of this crime in Sweden and it is an issue.
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Post by gawa on Oct 3, 2023 20:28:27 GMT
I can see both arguments. I grew up with people who used cannabis as teenagers and are now fully functioning adults. It's a phase you try and grow out of in most instances, or understand your tolerance levels if they continue. Others from that same group started with cannabis, then dealt it, then ended up on harder drugs, dealt them, ended up in prison; then ultimately became dependent on whatever filth they'd been peddling and died as a result of years of abusing their bodies with whatever it was. They offered no real benefit to society, rarely worked and were anti-social in the extreme with their attitudes and behaviours over the years. They're no great loss. If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment. However undertaking this and delivering the necessary support services should be government controlled, staffed and managed. It should not be contracted out for organisations to bid to manage and for their chief executives and managers to enrich themselves from e.g Brighter Futures, Honeycomb Group etc. "If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? I fully agree with your last paragraph, as the ex Police Captain says in the video, it's a health issue not a law issue. I'm actually curious to know if you have any views on what the ex Police Captain said? Presume he means homeless people and junkies taking drugs in city centres and getting off their heads shouting at people are walking about in zombie like states. I know other countries operate safe units for using harder drugs like heroin which alot of these people would use. They also test the drugs before consumption too. This may not solve the problem but it helps and gets the drug users of the street when they're consuming. With money coming in through taxing cannabis and less expenditure on criminalising it. Stuff like that could be reinvested to help those with heavier addictions and get them clean.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 21:22:27 GMT
"If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? I fully agree with your last paragraph, as the ex Police Captain says in the video, it's a health issue not a law issue. I'm actually curious to know if you have any views on what the ex Police Captain said? Presume he means homeless people and junkies taking drugs in city centres and getting off their heads shouting at people are walking about in zombie like states. I know other countries operate safe units for using harder drugs like heroin which alot of these people would use. They also test the drugs before consumption too. This may not solve the problem but it helps and gets the drug users of the street when they're consuming. With money coming in through taxing cannabis and less expenditure on criminalising it. Stuff like that could be reinvested to help those with heavier addictions and get them clean. The only place I've ever seen anyone shooting up heroin (pretty sure that's what he was doing anyway) in public is in a doorway in a side street in Hamburg. I didn't enjoy the experience, it was a bit of a shock, that's not down to him tho, it's down to me, he wasn't doing me any harm after all. Other than that, unless sitting in a doorway is considered anti social I haven't really seen any evidence of unacceptable public behaviour that looked likely to be the result of drug taking. I have seen people walking along randomly shouting at the sky, singing to themselves, shouting football chants early in the morning and one bloke was causing a disturbance outside the town hall for a while. On all of these occasions the people involved had a can of alcohol of some sort in their hand.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 3, 2023 21:39:57 GMT
I can see both arguments. I grew up with people who used cannabis as teenagers and are now fully functioning adults. It's a phase you try and grow out of in most instances, or understand your tolerance levels if they continue. Others from that same group started with cannabis, then dealt it, then ended up on harder drugs, dealt them, ended up in prison; then ultimately became dependent on whatever filth they'd been peddling and died as a result of years of abusing their bodies with whatever it was. They offered no real benefit to society, rarely worked and were anti-social in the extreme with their attitudes and behaviours over the years. They're no great loss. If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment. However undertaking this and delivering the necessary support services should be government controlled, staffed and managed. It should not be contracted out for organisations to bid to manage and for their chief executives and managers to enrich themselves from e.g Brighter Futures, Honeycomb Group etc. "If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? The general scrotish intimidating behaviour that you see on display across towns in this city and elsewhere. I came out of the cinema on a Sunday afternoon to the delightful sight of a half naked idiot absolutely off their face on whatever they'd taken, mouthing off and throwing themselves around the floor whilst their mate was comatose with their detritus and paraphernalia scattered around them. Not a copper to be seen. I haven't watched the video but I agree. The police aren't trained to deal with drug abuse or mental health issues so unless laws are being broken they shouldn't be involved. Mental health first responders should be scooping them up and shipping them off to The Harplands and the like.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 21:47:51 GMT
"If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? The general scrotish intimidating behaviour that you see on display across towns in this city and elsewhere. I came out of the cinema on a Sunday afternoon to the delightful sight of a half naked idiot absolutely off their face on whatever they'd taken, mouthing off and throwing themselves around the floor whilst their mate was comatose with their detritus and paraphernalia scattered around them. Not a copper to be seen. I haven't watched the video but I agree. The police aren't trained to deal with drug abuse or mental health issues so unless laws are being broken they shouldn't be involved. Mental health first responders should be scooping them up and shipping them off to The Harplands and the like. I see. I just don't see how that's down to the drugs and not the people, do we blame alcohol when people misuse it and misbehave or do we blame the people for being dicks?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 3, 2023 21:51:13 GMT
"If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? I fully agree with your last paragraph, as the ex Police Captain says in the video, it's a health issue not a law issue. I'm actually curious to know if you have any views on what the ex Police Captain said? Presume he means homeless people and junkies taking drugs in city centres and getting off their heads shouting at people are walking about in zombie like states. I know other countries operate safe units for using harder drugs like heroin which alot of these people would use. They also test the drugs before consumption too. This may not solve the problem but it helps and gets the drug users of the street when they're consuming. With money coming in through taxing cannabis and less expenditure on criminalising it. Stuff like that could be reinvested to help those with heavier addictions and get them clean. Spend some time down Century Street in Cobridge and you'll see what goes on. It's like Zombies awakening making their way across to the city centre. I only use Hanley for The Sugarmill 3 or 4 times a year, on each occasion I've some clown clearly under the influence of some intoxicant staggering around, oblivious to their state and the impact it has. We deal with it through work, as the landlord of last resort, needle sweeping void properties, refurbing houses that have been used for a grow etc. And some poor bastard just trying to get by has to put up with what comes with those behaviours in their neighborhoods. Legalise it all for me and allow people to take as much as they like as often as they like in a controlled environment. It might make an improvement, it might not. But we're heading down the same route as the Portland's of this world so you may as well try to avoid making the same mistakes they have.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 3, 2023 21:53:15 GMT
The general scrotish intimidating behaviour that you see on display across towns in this city and elsewhere. I came out of the cinema on a Sunday afternoon to the delightful sight of a half naked idiot absolutely off their face on whatever they'd taken, mouthing off and throwing themselves around the floor whilst their mate was comatose with their detritus and paraphernalia scattered around them. Not a copper to be seen. I haven't watched the video but I agree. The police aren't trained to deal with drug abuse or mental health issues so unless laws are being broken they shouldn't be involved. Mental health first responders should be scooping them up and shipping them off to The Harplands and the like. I see. I just don't see how that's down to the drugs and not the people, do we blame alcohol when people misuse it and misbehave or do we blame the people for being dicks? It's obviously a combination of the two. I have very little time for the human race and I've said it before on here, we could be wiped from the face of the planet tomorrow and the world would be a better place. We're not half as clever as we think we are.
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Post by gawa on Oct 3, 2023 21:55:59 GMT
I see. I just don't see how that's down to the drugs and not the people, do we blame alcohol when people misuse it and misbehave or do we blame the people for being dicks? It's obviously a combination of the two. I have very little time for the human race and I've said it before on here, we could be wiped from the face of the planet tomorrow and the world would be a better place. We're not half as clever as we think we are. Much smarter than badgers though.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 3, 2023 21:57:43 GMT
It's obviously a combination of the two. I have very little time for the human race and I've said it before on here, we could be wiped from the face of the planet tomorrow and the world would be a better place. We're not half as clever as we think we are. Much smarter than badgers though. Just one type of badger, not all of them. If badgers ever got their act together and joined forces they could rule the world.
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Post by gawa on Oct 3, 2023 22:07:03 GMT
Much smarter than badgers though. Just one type of badger, not all of them. If badgers ever got their act together and joined forces they could rule the world. Defo thehartshillbadger. Aside from digging himself into a hole, he's not got much use.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 3, 2023 22:08:04 GMT
I see. I just don't see how that's down to the drugs and not the people, do we blame alcohol when people misuse it and misbehave or do we blame the people for being dicks? It's obviously a combination of the two. I have very little time for the human race and I've said it before on here, we could be wiped from the face of the planet tomorrow and the world would be a better place. We're not half as clever as we think we are. I think most people (and I include myself in this) look at people who've had a drink and somehow excuse it, probably because we do it ourselves, but someone on something we don't understand and haven't experienced seems to set off our freeze, flight or fight response to a degree. It is quite interesting that we subconsciously give a more or less free pass to the most dangerous drug. The worst social side effects of weed users is probably a bit of a whiff and a yearning for food, give us our own social clubs like in Spain and we won't be a problem 😃
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 3, 2023 22:18:54 GMT
Just one type of badger, not all of them. If badgers ever got their act together and joined forces they could rule the world. Defo thehartshillbadger. Aside from digging himself into a hole, he's not got much use. He keeps Oggy in check when he gets free of the keep net.
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Post by musik on Oct 3, 2023 22:22:17 GMT
This is one of the aspects leading to the swedish A Drug Free Generation standpoint we are thought at school and live by here. The main issue with drugs is most of them (if not all) are addictive, so you can never irresponsibly say the users take them voluntarily. The Swedish politicians are convinced people don't need drugs. That's why they now deal with it, step by step, they say. First out the big cleaning act where they put everyone in prison, mostly back home abroad, then start preventing everyone from start using drugs in the first place. And they have explained it's a very easy task if everybody offering drugs aren't around anymore. The goal is of course to build a future society where drugs won't be needed. The present and the former Prime Ministers even said priority number one isn't even the persons deep into the shit, but to prevent anyone from testing any drug in the first place. The question is how do you define a drug Musik? Tobacco, alcohol, sugar, coffee, tea, snus, antidepressants, morphine etc.. They're all addictive and some of them are certainly drugs. But I don't think they intend to ban what's already legal? Not sure how Sweden tackle their current issues. Immigration has certainly contributed significantly too from the research I've done and maybe some people are worried about saying that in case they get called racist. Just from the very little reading I've done alot of people seem to think poorly thought out integration has resulted in alot of immigrants arriving and getting a home but then not really having the right support in place to help them integrate and contribute. And then poverty kicks in and it all becomes a bit gang land. The freedom of movement probably contributes too as these gangs tend to stretch across and through Europe's borders. Unfortunately I'm not sure if tougher drug laws will solve the issues Sweden is currently facing. And I'm not really too sure what the solution is either. It's too soon to evaluate. Time will tell. However, today I saw pictures of how it will look like when they have installed all cameras they intend to install in public places, on houses and everywhere around this country. It was an ugly sight! And since Sunday the police are allowed to listen to every phone call and read every text message anyone is involved in. And I haven't heard ONE person yet who has been against it! That says a lot about the situation. It's been long since anyone was called a racist here, I think. It has nothing to do with race to begin with. Most people from faraway places are decent people and I'd say 99.9% of the swedes know that. The things you mentioned are all "drugs" in a way, but when we talk about drugs up here, we always mean narcotics only. Coffee is very special here since the politicians and medical industry see it as something very nutritious and healthy for you! They have constant recommendations saying you should drink coffee regularly since it fights cancer et cetera. And they have begun to say similar things about alcohol lately, not good against cancer, but good against ALS. I don't use anything on that list (except sweets), so i guess I'm like a Krishna member, a muslim or an orthodox Christian. They accept sweets now and then. Interesting fact. Early today I saw Swedish info about the addiction in the brain they teach in our schools. It said sweets, sex and coffee doesn't count as things you'll have an addiction for. I found it to be a strange thing to write. It also said alcohol is many times less addictive compared to drugs (they mean narcotics) - and that you can't even compare the two! There are some drugs out there you can get addicted to instantly.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 6, 2023 11:29:28 GMT
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Post by musik on Oct 6, 2023 19:35:59 GMT
Latest
Sweden have decided to put up and install loads and loads of security cameras practically everywhere. Most people agree it has to be done. Most cameras per capita in the world seems to be the goal.
They have also put very young people in custody to be sent to prison later. More already in this year compared to the whole 9 years in 1914-1922.
The police do have the authority to listen to every phone call and check every text message sent in the population since Sunday 1st Oct. I haven't heard a single person so far thinking it's a bad idea.
They have already seen signs of less crime within narcotics on the margin. But the crimes have already turned to other markets. This is in line their fear criminals do criminal acts because criminality is their occupation. Sectors experiencing more trouble now according to the ongoing debate on the news is fraud within the health sector and within our welfare sector, they start vaccine centers and health clinics as well. If they can't get the money from narcotics they will get it from somewhere else, the politicians say. Basically, this is also why they have no interest in legalising drugs. Their plan is a difficult one, but it seems to me they will try to catch the worst criminal elements first, then let us make a fresh start with lot of more control along the borders.
De-criminalising of drugs isn't on the agenda, since that's exactly what the gangs want. As some have said, "then we can go on to do whatever we've done so far, only with the exception we wouldn't be punished for it". They already have the distribution chanels for it, the storage facilities and so on, so they would probably make even more money then, all to be put in what the politicians and police fear most.
This week's report from what's been said
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Post by elystokie on Oct 6, 2023 19:59:50 GMT
Latest Sweden have decided to put up and install loads and loads of security cameras practically everywhere. Most people agree it has to be done. Most cameras per capita in the world seems to be the goal. They have also put very young people in custody to be sent to prison later. More already in this year compared to the whole 9 years in 1914-1922. The police do have the authority to listen to every phone call and check every text message sent in the population since Sunday 1st Oct. I haven't heard a single person so far thinking it's a bad idea. They have already seen signs of less crime within narcotics on the margin. But the crimes have already turned to other markets. This is in line their fear criminals do criminal acts because criminality is their occupation. Sectors experiencing more trouble now according to the ongoing debate on the news is fraud within the health sector and within our welfare sector, they start vaccine centers and health clinics as well. If they can't get the money from narcotics they will get it from somewhere else, the politicians say. Basically, this is also why they have no interest in legalising drugs. Their plan is a difficult one, but it seems to me they will try to catch the worst criminal elements first, then let us make a fresh start with lot of more control along the borders. De-criminalising of drugs isn't on the agenda, since that's exactly what the gangs want. As some have said, "then we can go on to do whatever we've done so far, only with the exception we wouldn't be punished for it". They already have the distribution chanels for it, the storage facilities and so on, so they would probably make even more money then, all to be put in what the politicians and police fear most. This week's report from what's been said As soon as they catch the 'worst criminal elements' there'll be a turf war to take their place. If the gangs want decriminilisation (and I very much doubt they would because it would hit their bottom line) why not legalise and take it out of their hands? The attitude towards alcohol is what amuses me most, of the drugs they're determined to eliminate - heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine etc many have a medical purpose and are used in hospitals. Alcohol is also used in hospitals of course, but only for cleaning 😃
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Post by musik on Oct 7, 2023 0:50:48 GMT
Latest Sweden have decided to put up and install loads and loads of security cameras practically everywhere. Most people agree it has to be done. Most cameras per capita in the world seems to be the goal. They have also put very young people in custody to be sent to prison later. More already in this year compared to the whole 9 years in 1914-1922. The police do have the authority to listen to every phone call and check every text message sent in the population since Sunday 1st Oct. I haven't heard a single person so far thinking it's a bad idea. They have already seen signs of less crime within narcotics on the margin. But the crimes have already turned to other markets. This is in line their fear criminals do criminal acts because criminality is their occupation. Sectors experiencing more trouble now according to the ongoing debate on the news is fraud within the health sector and within our welfare sector, they start vaccine centers and health clinics as well. If they can't get the money from narcotics they will get it from somewhere else, the politicians say. Basically, this is also why they have no interest in legalising drugs. Their plan is a difficult one, but it seems to me they will try to catch the worst criminal elements first, then let us make a fresh start with lot of more control along the borders. De-criminalising of drugs isn't on the agenda, since that's exactly what the gangs want. As some have said, "then we can go on to do whatever we've done so far, only with the exception we wouldn't be punished for it". They already have the distribution chanels for it, the storage facilities and so on, so they would probably make even more money then, all to be put in what the politicians and police fear most. This week's report from what's been said As soon as they catch the 'worst criminal elements' there'll be a turf war to take their place. If the gangs want decriminilisation (and I very much doubt they would because it would hit their bottom line) why not legalise and take it out of their hands? The attitude towards alcohol is what amuses me most, of the drugs they're determined to eliminate - heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine etc many have a medical purpose and are used in hospitals. Alcohol is also used in hospitals of course, but only for cleaning 😃 Who do you think would try to take their place when noone left has an interest in doing so? Do you think someone from abroad will try to get in and take their place? That's not the picture they're sketching. Initially, at this moment, before criminals have been sent away (since they mainly will borrow prison cells abroad) or sent to prison here, nothing can be changed regarding the drug laws. The existing gangs want de-criminalisation because then they can expand their markets, get commercial ads time on tv etc. Our politicians don't want that since it feeds terrorism, they've said. Legalisation is also out of the question for several reasons, one is they don't want cultural involvement different from Swedish old culture and one of them is drug use in general, and remember their main goal, the top priority, is to make sure noone try any drug in the future - legalisation has no place in such a dream. And the punishment for trying a drug will be so huge so it won't be an option. Every law is going to be re-written, according to the Conservatives. Regarding alcohol, which I've written before, they see it as a part if the old Swedish culture so they won't change that. And they are desperately trying to push for the eventual positive effects, a stronger heart and a certain protection against ALS. The one against ALS is interesting and hopefully they will understand why it might give some protection against ALS. But when it comes to vine and their positive effects on the heart, they're actually wrong. The truth is what's under the skin on the grapes helps the heart. The alcohol in itself doesn't play a part. You can drink freshly squeezed juice instead. What do you think of their option to listen to whoever they want at anytime, even if you're NOT under any suspicion?
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Post by elystokie on Oct 7, 2023 4:56:14 GMT
As soon as they catch the 'worst criminal elements' there'll be a turf war to take their place. If the gangs want decriminilisation (and I very much doubt they would because it would hit their bottom line) why not legalise and take it out of their hands? The attitude towards alcohol is what amuses me most, of the drugs they're determined to eliminate - heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine etc many have a medical purpose and are used in hospitals. Alcohol is also used in hospitals of course, but only for cleaning 😃 Who do you think would try to take their place when noone left has an interest in doing so? Do you think someone from abroad will try to get in and take their place? That's not the picture they're sketching. Initially, at this moment, before criminals have been sent away (since they mainly will borrow prison cells abroad) or sent to prison here, nothing can be changed regarding the drug laws. The existing gangs want de-criminalisation because then they can expand their markets, get commercial ads time on tv etc. Our politicians don't want that since it feeds terrorism, they've said. Legalisation is also out of the question for several reasons, one is they don't want cultural involvement different from Swedish old culture and one of them is drug use in general, and remember their main goal, the top priority, is to make sure noone try any drug in the future - legalisation has no place in such a dream. And the punishment for trying a drug will be so huge so it won't be an option. Every law is going to be re-written, according to the Conservatives. Regarding alcohol, which I've written before, they see it as a part if the old Swedish culture so they won't change that. And they are desperately trying to push for the eventual positive effects, a stronger heart and a certain protection against ALS. The one against ALS is interesting and hopefully they will understand why it might give some protection against ALS. But when it comes to vine and their positive effects on the heart, they're actually wrong. The truth is what's under the skin on the grapes helps the heart. The alcohol in itself doesn't play a part. You can drink freshly squeezed juice instead. What do you think of their option to listen to whoever they want at anytime, even if you're NOT under any suspicion? I think their option to listen to whoever they want is very reminiscent of one of the very things they told us we were fighting against when I was in the forces during the 'Cold War' 🤔 According to the undercover cop, after a long operation in Northants UK they arrested 96 members of one particular gang, the drug market in Northants was disrupted for a whole 2 hours before other dealers were in place and the market was back to normal, I'd be surprised if Sweden was radically different. I'm presuming they offer up some sort of scientific evidence for their claims? Or have they taken the troll-like attitude of presenting no proof whatsoever but expecting to be believed because 'they say so'?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 7, 2023 6:54:31 GMT
I can see both arguments. I grew up with people who used cannabis as teenagers and are now fully functioning adults. It's a phase you try and grow out of in most instances, or understand your tolerance levels if they continue. Others from that same group started with cannabis, then dealt it, then ended up on harder drugs, dealt them, ended up in prison; then ultimately became dependent on whatever filth they'd been peddling and died as a result of years of abusing their bodies with whatever it was. They offered no real benefit to society, rarely worked and were anti-social in the extreme with their attitudes and behaviours over the years. They're no great loss. If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment. However undertaking this and delivering the necessary support services should be government controlled, staffed and managed. It should not be contracted out for organisations to bid to manage and for their chief executives and managers to enrich themselves from e.g Brighter Futures, Honeycomb Group etc. "If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? I fully agree with your last paragraph, as the ex Police Captain says in the video, it's a health issue not a law issue. I'm actually curious to know if you have any views on what the ex Police Captain said? I guess it depends on whether we’re just talking weed. I don’t disagree that it’s a health issue however the consequences become a police issue the harder the drug becomes - stealing / commiting burglaries to feed a habit. - dealing with someone who’s had a mental health episode / collapsed on the back of a bad batch of heroin. Large drain on the NHS. - drug driving. - people injecting in the street / in the case of monkey dust wandering around like zombies. Not great for young kids to see. - The impact on a household. Those using becoming withdrawn etc. Causing arguments in the home etc.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 7, 2023 8:02:57 GMT
"If legalisation puts an end to the anti-social nature of hard drug taking and allows the majority of people to feel they can use their towns and cities again without being intimidated by the behaviour of a minority of selfish users then that would be an accomplishment." Are you talking about any particular anti social behaviour? I fully agree with your last paragraph, as the ex Police Captain says in the video, it's a health issue not a law issue. I'm actually curious to know if you have any views on what the ex Police Captain said? I guess it depends on whether we’re just talking weed. I don’t disagree that it’s a health issue however the consequences become a police issue the harder the drug becomes - stealing / commiting burglaries to feed a habit. - dealing with someone who’s had a mental health episode / collapsed on the back of a bad batch of heroin. Large drain on the NHS. - drug driving. - people injecting in the street / in the case of monkey dust wandering around like zombies. Not great for young kids to see. - The impact on a household. Those using becoming withdrawn etc. Causing arguments in the home etc. Please tell me how prohibition has prevented any of those.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 7, 2023 8:35:09 GMT
I guess it depends on whether we’re just talking weed. I don’t disagree that it’s a health issue however the consequences become a police issue the harder the drug becomes - stealing / commiting burglaries to feed a habit. - dealing with someone who’s had a mental health episode / collapsed on the back of a bad batch of heroin. Large drain on the NHS. - drug driving. - people injecting in the street / in the case of monkey dust wandering around like zombies. Not great for young kids to see. - The impact on a household. Those using becoming withdrawn etc. Causing arguments in the home etc. Please tell me how prohibition has prevented any of those. It hasn’t but prohibition was at a very different time. No social media, mobile phones etc and was very much a local problem where people weren’t influenced by what they saw on a daily basis online. Does making something legal knowing that it will cause problems “now” make sense though when you can do something to prevent it happening. It’s a lot easier to prevent something from taking place than to cancel something already in society. I’m not sure that if alcohol wasn’t legal it would bypass the legislation to make it legal now.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 7, 2023 9:02:34 GMT
Please tell me how prohibition has prevented any of those. It hasn’t but prohibition was at a very different time. No social media, mobile phones etc and was very much a local problem where people weren’t influenced by what they saw on a daily basis online. Does making something legal knowing that it will cause problems “now” make sense though when you can do something to prevent it happening. It’s a lot easier to prevent something from taking place than to cancel something already in society. I’m not sure that if alcohol wasn’t legal it would bypass the legislation to make it legal now. 'prohibition was at a very different time' No it wasn't, it's happening right now and has been since 1971 in this country. I'm failing to see your point re mobile phones etc, what is it you're trying to say? They cause more problems because they're illegal, that's the main problem! I know we've been around the Mulberry Bush several times on your points above, but one more time for old times sake 😐 "stealing / commiting burglaries to feed a habit" Do people steal or commit burglaries to fund their alcohol habit? The reason people do this is because prohibition makes the drug they use so expensive that a normal job with a normal salary will go nowhere near what their habit costs them. "dealing with someone who’s had a mental health episode / collapsed on the back of a bad batch of heroin." So making them buy their heroin from ruthless dealers ameliorates or eliminates this does it? How many people have harmful episodes due to a bad batch of alcohol? Not many because it's quality controlled! "drug driving" We already have laws against (they badly need attention admittedly) this like we do with drink driving is there something I'm missing or is this just a straw man? "people injecting in the street / in the case of monkey dust wandering around like zombies." Firstly, monkey dust exists, as I've explained several times, as a workaround of our drug laws meaning no prohibition = no monkeydust - when was the last time you heard of someone drinking moonshine? Talking of which, kids are probably quite used to members of their own family stumbling around drunk, I'd be very surprised if someone else stumbling around shocked them that much. "The impact on a household. Those using becoming withdrawn etc. Causing arguments in the home etc." Why would it be any different from the impact on some households alcohol has? Now that you're back we can address a couple of longstanding questions that seem to constantly pop up 🙂 You made a claim in a past post that you 'blew out of the water' a statement I made but you've yet to identify which statement, now's your chance 🙂 Finally, can you name a western nation that has implemented drug prohibition successfully yet?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Oct 7, 2023 9:59:15 GMT
'prohibition was at a very different time'
No it wasn't, it's happening right now and has been since 1971 in this country.
I thought you were referring to prohibition in the States that you’ve mentioned many times. What prohibition are you referring to just so I know. One that’s been freshly initiated?
I'm failing to see your point re mobile phones etc, what is it you're trying to say?
With mobile phones / social media everything’s in your face and global. More people get to hear about what’s happening all over the U.K. Trends etc not just locally so trends grow quicker and more universally.
They cause more problems because they're illegal, that's the main problem!
I know we've been around the Mulberry Bush several times on your points above, but one more time for old times sake 😐
"stealing / commiting burglaries to feed a habit"
Do people steal or commit burglaries to fund their alcohol habit? The reason people do this is because prohibition makes the drug they use so expensive that a normal job with a normal salary will go nowhere near what their habit costs them.
No they don’t because unless they’re an alcoholic the level of addiction isn’t there or the desperation. Making drugs too cheap will destroy the communities because the numbers using will increase.
"dealing with someone who’s had a mental health episode / collapsed on the back of a bad batch of heroin."
So making them buy their heroin from ruthless dealers ameliorates or eliminates this does it? How many people have harmful episodes due to a bad batch of alcohol? Not many because it's quality controlled!
So there’s healthy heroin?
"drug driving"
We already have laws against (they badly need attention admittedly) this like we do with drink driving is there something I'm missing or is this just a straw man?
"people injecting in the street / in the case of monkey dust wandering around like zombies."
Firstly, monkey dust exists, as I've explained several times, as a workaround of our drug laws meaning no prohibition = no monkeydust - when was the last time you heard of someone drinking moonshine? Talking of which, kids are probably quite used to members of their own family stumbling around drunk, I'd be very surprised if someone else stumbling around shocked them that much.
Some yes because of their upbringing but kids from decent backgrounds should never accept people walking around high or stoned as the norm.
"The impact on a household. Those using becoming withdrawn etc. Causing arguments in the home etc."
Why would it be any different from the impact on some households alcohol has?
Working with youngsters I’ve seen first hand the damage drugs and even vaping has on youngsters and there parents relationships first hand and the impact it has on there schooling.
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Post by elystokie on Oct 7, 2023 12:16:37 GMT
It's becoming too difficult to decipher now, I'll try and address the points separately, again.
Mobile phones, social media - this increases communication and awareness as you say, so if the drugs you don't approve of are as big an issue as you say then the dangers of said drugs will be communicated and everyone will be aware and thus safer, surely?
Alcohol - "the level of addiction isn't there unless they're alcoholics" Unbelievable! I'm really struggling on this one. Have a myth -
Myth #2. “People who use drugs are suffering from substance use disorder.” Untrue – the vast majority of people using drugs, do so rationally, recreationally and sensibly, but unfortunately we conflate drug use with problematic use.
Heroin - yes, heroin is relatively safe, it's issued regularly in the form of morphine, a family friend visited recently that is prescribed it, it's the only thing that helps with his pain whilst he waits (seemingly endlessly) for various operations. I've personally been injected with it as a pre-op a number of times for back and knee operations in the Royal Navy, astonishingly, 40 years later,I've never been addicted, like thousands of others.
Kids - I'm so bored with this now. Kids find it easier to get drugs than they do to get alcohol, I really don't think any more needs to be said but absolutely nobody that is campaigning against drug prohibition us advocating selling drugs to kids 🤦
Now about those two questions you've been studiously ignoring for weeks? Have you formulated an answer yet?
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Post by musik on Oct 7, 2023 12:17:25 GMT
Who do you think would try to take their place when noone left has an interest in doing so? Do you think someone from abroad will try to get in and take their place? That's not the picture they're sketching. Initially, at this moment, before criminals have been sent away (since they mainly will borrow prison cells abroad) or sent to prison here, nothing can be changed regarding the drug laws. The existing gangs want de-criminalisation because then they can expand their markets, get commercial ads time on tv etc. Our politicians don't want that since it feeds terrorism, they've said. Legalisation is also out of the question for several reasons, one is they don't want cultural involvement different from Swedish old culture and one of them is drug use in general, and remember their main goal, the top priority, is to make sure noone try any drug in the future - legalisation has no place in such a dream. And the punishment for trying a drug will be so huge so it won't be an option. Every law is going to be re-written, according to the Conservatives. Regarding alcohol, which I've written before, they see it as a part if the old Swedish culture so they won't change that. And they are desperately trying to push for the eventual positive effects, a stronger heart and a certain protection against ALS. The one against ALS is interesting and hopefully they will understand why it might give some protection against ALS. But when it comes to vine and their positive effects on the heart, they're actually wrong. The truth is what's under the skin on the grapes helps the heart. The alcohol in itself doesn't play a part. You can drink freshly squeezed juice instead. What do you think of their option to listen to whoever they want at anytime, even if you're NOT under any suspicion? I think their option to listen to whoever they want is very reminiscent of one of the very things they told us we were fighting against when I was in the forces during the 'Cold War' 🤔 According to the undercover cop, after a long operation in Northants UK they arrested 96 members of one particular gang, the drug market in Northants was disrupted for a whole 2 hours before other dealers were in place and the market was back to normal, I'd be surprised if Sweden was radically different. I'm presuming they offer up some sort of scientific evidence for their claims? Or have they taken the troll-like attitude of presenting no proof whatsoever but expecting to be believed because 'they say so'? Honestly, I don't think they are able to present any scientific historical evidence since it has never been tested before. It's more of a hypothesis trial, I guess. All they refer to all the time is the common sense. It all sums up in this: If noone tests any drugs - we wouldn't have a drug problem, would we 🤣
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