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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 8:04:25 GMT
I do appreciate everything that you try to do Malcolm. However, I would be shocked if in 10 years time there is a smaller gap between the Premier League and the Championship than there is now (and so on for Championship to League One etc). It will be interesting to see how good any “independent” regulator will ultimately turn out to be in safeguarding clubs. With regards to increased distribution of finance from the PL down. How does that work? It’s my understanding (perhaps wrongly) that a fair chunk of money comes from tv deals. If next to no one wants to watch Stoke vs Barnsley on a Friday night, should the internationally well-received match of Man Utd vs Liverpool be used to help supplement the general lack of interest in the lower leagues? I have quite conflicting views on this. On one hand, the PL teams ruin lower leagues by offering far more money than others can afford, on the other hand no one outside of the club supporters care about teams in lower leagues. Has anyone considered petitioning for stricter rules on poaching from academies, the number of loans (across all ages) a club can send out and reducing squad size? Players would surely command less money in this division (thus reducing costs) if they weren’t used to bloated PL salaries despite never featuring. If there isn't a smaller gap, then these reforms will not have succeeded in one of their major aims. It is extraordinary that when the PL was founded over 30 years ago, the EFL income was 75% of that of the PL, now it's about 6% ! Yes, the PL gets a huge proportion of its income from TV deals. It's what it does with that vast wealth which matters. The english football pyramid is, or rather was, the best in the world. Like all pyramids, it needs a strong base. I don't agree with you that no-one outside of a club's supporters care about teams in the lower leagues. Many of us do, and I'm sure many, hopefully most, stokies do. Are we really indifferent to the crises suffered by the likes of Bury, Macclesfield, Northwich etc etc etc ? Some of the many clubs which have been in financial crisis include some of the historically great clubs of english football - Bolton, Blackpool, Sheff Wed etc etc Your last para raises some good questions and ideas which can certainly be taken forward.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 8:11:02 GMT
Really stupid question but all the communications refer to 'fan this' and 'fan that' but what is a 'fan' these days? Is it someone who attends football matches (a small number of people) or someone who watches football through some other directly or indirectly paid means (an infinitely larger audience) ? I think most people would assume the first audience but football commerce is laser focused an the second global audience for obvious reasons. It's not a stupid question, Godfrey, it's an interesting one which we often debate. I think a key point is that the attraction of the latter depends to a significant extent on the existence of the former i.e without fans in the ground, and the atmosphere they create, the TV product would be much less attractive. And of course the lower down the pyramid you go, the more important gate income becomes.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 23, 2023 9:17:27 GMT
Looks like an uphill battle to get significant redistribution and would I be right in thinking the independent regulator can only facilitate a solution, not impose one? If that is the case it's going to be a big ask.
Interesting this was fan led - there have been a good number of posts on here advocating the scrapping FFP and letting rip with an owner funded free for all - the exact opposite of what is being proposed. Were these ideas discussed and rejected or were the fans who were consulted pretty much behind sustainability as the key to this working?
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Post by pushon on Feb 23, 2023 9:38:57 GMT
It'll all end in tears. Too many fingers in the pie.
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Post by eddyclamp on Feb 23, 2023 10:08:07 GMT
so if legislation was in place , it would stop the big clubs from breaking away ? Cant see the Yanks and Arabs liking that. They dont give a fuck about us or any other club outside the elite. Interesting times ahead
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Post by lordb on Feb 23, 2023 10:10:48 GMT
Looks like an uphill battle to get significant redistribution and would I be right in thinking the independent regulator can only facilitate a solution, not impose one? If that is the case it's going to be a big ask. Interesting this was fan led - there have been a good number of posts on here advocating the scrapping FFP and letting rip with an owner funded free for all - the exact opposite of what is being proposed. Were these ideas discussed and rejected or were the fans who were consulted pretty much behind sustainability as the key to this working? They need teeth That's why I found the line re a licence interesting However that sounds like a n ultimate sanction (revoked licence, club can't operate scenario) as such would very rarely be used except re end game situations re rogue owners, could see that being very handy with clubs down the leagues. They need other powers, other sanctions, ability to impose fines (proper fines that hurt) for breaches Some kind of code of conduct that clubs have to sign upto (to get a licence) might be in order It's going to be a long road
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 10:20:46 GMT
Looks like an uphill battle to get significant redistribution and would I be right in thinking the independent regulator can only facilitate a solution, not impose one? If that is the case it's going to be a big ask. Interesting this was fan led - there have been a good number of posts on here advocating the scrapping FFP and letting rip with an owner funded free for all - the exact opposite of what is being proposed. Were these ideas discussed and rejected or were the fans who were consulted pretty much behind sustainability as the key to this working? Crouch and the Government have said that they would prefer the football industry to agree redistribution, but that if it can't (and there is no sign at the moment of the PL clubs agreeing to it) the regulator will have powers to impose it. It will be interesting to see if that 'threat' provokes progress on the issue. To answer your 2nd para., as far as the FSA concerned we decide our policy democratically and I posted a link to our evidence to the Crouch review above. We are most certainly not in favour of scrapping the current rules and " letting rip with an owner funded free for all". But football fan organisations from clubs all over the country also gave direct evidence to Tracey Crouch, as well as individual fans. I'm not aware of any Stoke fans or the Club itself giving evidence to the review.
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Post by cvillestokie on Feb 23, 2023 12:07:36 GMT
I do appreciate everything that you try to do Malcolm. However, I would be shocked if in 10 years time there is a smaller gap between the Premier League and the Championship than there is now (and so on for Championship to League One etc). It will be interesting to see how good any “independent” regulator will ultimately turn out to be in safeguarding clubs. With regards to increased distribution of finance from the PL down. How does that work? It’s my understanding (perhaps wrongly) that a fair chunk of money comes from tv deals. If next to no one wants to watch Stoke vs Barnsley on a Friday night, should the internationally well-received match of Man Utd vs Liverpool be used to help supplement the general lack of interest in the lower leagues? I have quite conflicting views on this. On one hand, the PL teams ruin lower leagues by offering far more money than others can afford, on the other hand no one outside of the club supporters care about teams in lower leagues. Has anyone considered petitioning for stricter rules on poaching from academies, the number of loans (across all ages) a club can send out and reducing squad size? Players would surely command less money in this division (thus reducing costs) if they weren’t used to bloated PL salaries despite never featuring. If there isn't a smaller gap, then these reforms will not have succeeded in one of their major aims. It is extraordinary that when the PL was founded over 30 years ago, the EFL income was 75% of that of the PL, now it's about 6% ! Yes, the PL gets a huge proportion of its income from TV deals. It's what it does with that vast wealth which matters. The english football pyramid is, or rather was, the best in the world. Like all pyramids, it needs a strong base. I don't agree with you that no-one outside of a club's supporters care about teams in the lower leagues. Many of us do, and I'm sure many, hopefully most, stokies do. Are we really indifferent to the crises suffered by the likes of Bury, Macclesfield, Northwich etc etc etc ? Some of the many clubs which have been in financial crisis include some of the historically great clubs of english football - Bolton, Blackpool, Sheff Wed etc etc Your last para raises some good questions and ideas which can certainly be taken forward. Care is a strong word. Do I empathize briefly for the generations of fans that lose out, yes. But I still wouldn’t have tuned in to watch them play. What are the viewership figures for league 2 versus premier league games? I personally dislike the idea of clubs that make money through tv having to share that with clubs outside of their own league. However, something needs to be done, as the standards in non-PL football seem to keep deteriorating.
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Post by shrewspotter on Feb 23, 2023 12:17:27 GMT
Firstly great work Malcolm and thank you for sharing
I agree that something needs to change, we all look at Bury, Macclesfield and wonder how that happened. But even if we look at Manchester United and their recent ownership. Please correct me if I am wrong but the Glazers bought Man U for around 800m which was money they borrowed against the club, thus meaning they themselves didn't have to dig into their own pockets. Now they are looking to sell for 5 billion. I dont study it as well as others but I doubt the Glazer family have invested much of their own money. This means they will take a profit of 4.2 billion having not laid out any money up themselves, back to the states. How on earth is that right or allowed
I do think though that donors should be allowed which is very different to loans secured against the clubs assets, if Coates decided to stick 100m into Stoke City then that is vital money that could help feed the likes of Bury and potentially give them the lifeblood they would need or needed in that case, how that would look is a different matter but football is pretty much the only business that doesn't welcome private investment. I know that i am looking at the from a Stoke City point of view and not all clubs have the luxury of cash rich owners, but that is true of the World in general.
Other things as others have suggested such as the 20 is plenty is a great initiative, caps on season ticket prices and merchandise.
The other area of concern is that of the bigger clubs mopping up talent that cannot be signed because of their age, we know this from almost losing Tezgel. The likes of Man City, Chelsea, United and Arsenal are serial offenders, taking players that have worked hard to develop a player for their own. They then choose to loan these players out to lower league clubs who share the players wage, further develop them and they either sell, introduce to their first team or release. Looking at these lower league teams how fair on them is that, as a player of course your head will be turned by Man City or Chelsea if you are a starlet at Shrewsbury Town or any other lower league club but these are left high and dry as these clubs bypass these clubs and loan them to EFL clubs like ours hoping to make money on them, for this reason the amount of players that can be loaned out must be looked at and clauses for development too. Again how that looks like I am not sure as I don't have the knowledge to give you a thought through idea
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Feb 23, 2023 12:19:17 GMT
Great news.
Will the government actually pass the legislation though?
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Post by Not_Nick_H on Feb 23, 2023 12:24:37 GMT
It is striking that when the PL was formed 30 years ago, the EFL had 75% of its revenue. Now it has about 6% . Crouch's 8th strategic recommendation says ........The Premier League should guarantee its support to the pyramid and make additional, proportionate contributions to further support football And that is the nub of the issue. How has that been allowed to come about? Actually I can guess, but you know what I mean.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 13:45:40 GMT
Take if you’ve seen it before embargo then? I wouldn’t take this current government word on much Yes - as have all the press. It's the way these things work. Only 9 minutes now ! Not it seems in the view of Mr.Speaker ! - who strongly rebuked DCMS for issuing the press release embargoed only until 10.30 last night, and not until the White Paper had been laid before Parliament this morning. He issued a "yellow card" and expressed the hope that he will not have to reach for the red card ( whatever that means in this context ? ) Seems like DCMS have form for this in the Speaker's view. You can see this at 12:01;18 in the link below, followed by the Minister of Sport presenting the White Paper, the Opposition response ( very largely supportive - no party conflict here ) and questions from MPs. parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/eb932c5b-06a5-4da4-ba98-3e4dfbbf6c39
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 13:50:32 GMT
Great news. Will the government actually pass the legislation though? Yes it will. See my link above. The Minister is part of the Government and speaks for it. It also has the support of the Opposition.
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Post by dirtclod on Feb 23, 2023 13:52:46 GMT
Yes - as have all the press. It's the way these things work. Only 9 minutes now ! Not it seems in the view of Mr.Speaker ! - who strongly rebuked DCMS for issuing the press release embargoed only until 10.30 last night, and not until the White Paper had been laid before Parliament this morning. He issued a "yellow card" and expressed the hope that he will not have to reach for the red card ( whatever that means in this context ? ) Seems like DCMS have form for this in the Speaker's view. You can see this at 12:01;18 in the link below, followed by the Minister of Sport presenting the White Paper, the Opposition response ( very largely supportive - no party conflict here ) and questions from MPs. parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/eb932c5b-06a5-4da4-ba98-3e4dfbbf6c39It was never a yellow - should be reviewed.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 14:00:58 GMT
Not it seems in the view of Mr.Speaker ! - who strongly rebuked DCMS for issuing the press release embargoed only until 10.30 last night, and not until the White Paper had been laid before Parliament this morning. He issued a "yellow card" and expressed the hope that he will not have to reach for the red card ( whatever that means in this context ? ) Seems like DCMS have form for this in the Speaker's view. You can see this at 12:01;18 in the link below, followed by the Minister of Sport presenting the White Paper, the Opposition response ( very largely supportive - no party conflict here ) and questions from MPs. parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/eb932c5b-06a5-4da4-ba98-3e4dfbbf6c39It was never a yellow - should be reviewed.
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Post by cvillestokie on Feb 23, 2023 14:03:28 GMT
To add to this discussion further, what makes Man Utd (for example) a “community club”? The overwhelming majority of its fan base live outside of Manchester. Surely, their views on certain topics are as diverse as their living situation? I (unfortunately) have a few American friends who are Man Utd fans. They were each very excited by the ESL and saw the club as a franchise first (because that’s their only point of reference). I had a lot of arguments with them about this, but at the end of the day, they buy the merch, watch the games and are emotionally tied to their outcomes. Their opinions should surely be as valid as anyone else’s?
What makes a team a “community club” (a phrase I keep hearing on BBC/Sky with regards to this news)?.
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Post by pushon on Feb 23, 2023 14:12:09 GMT
It is striking that when the PL was formed 30 years ago, the EFL had 75% of its revenue. Now it has about 6% . Crouch's 8th strategic recommendation says ........The Premier League should guarantee its support to the pyramid and make additional, proportionate contributions to further support football And that is the nub of the issue. How has that been allowed to come about? Actually I can guess, but you know what I mean. It's probably because the premier league is the main revenue generator and consequently the main beneficiary. Isn't that how capitalism works usually?
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Post by 36dd on Feb 23, 2023 14:12:17 GMT
Is there time to stick on "Twenty is Plenty" for away fans tickets please! Plenty of time, Skip. Away prices in the Championship are becoming an issue of increasing concern Thank you for sharing Malcolm, I heard on the news it will also give the fans to express issues with changing of their Clubs kits. With the cost of living etc, hopefully it be considered to have the strips last for two seasons (similar to the late 80’s, early 90’s)? Rather than only 1 season, especially when the clubs are averaging 3 strips & training tops. I know Brentford didn’t have a new strip for the 22/23 season and kept the previous design.
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 23, 2023 14:33:25 GMT
so if legislation was in place , it would stop the big clubs from breaking away ? Cant see the Yanks and Arabs liking that. They dont give a fuck about us or any other club outside the elite. Interesting times ahead Might knock a couple of billion of the Man Utd asking price Now that would be a shame
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Post by Not_Nick_H on Feb 23, 2023 14:48:02 GMT
To add to this discussion further, what makes Man Utd (for example) a “community club”? The overwhelming majority of its fan base live outside of Manchester. Surely, their views on certain topics are as diverse as their living situation? I (unfortunately) have a few American friends who are Man Utd fans. They were each very excited by the ESL and saw the club as a franchise first (because that’s their only point of reference). I had a lot of arguments with them about this, but at the end of the day, they buy the merch, watch the games and are emotionally tied to their outcomes. Their opinions should surely be as valid as anyone else’s? What makes a team a “community club” (a phrase I keep hearing on BBC/Sky with regards to this news)?. You only have to take a brief look at the views of Man Utd "fans" on Twitter these days regarding the possible sale of the club to see that there is a clear split. On the one hand, "Proper" go-to-the-game fans who appreciate the domestic history and cultural place of their club and English football as a whole and then the "International" fans - who just see the $$$s and power of being owned by people who collect Rolls Royces like toys and don't give a hoot about a club's roots (or morals). I'm sure we all "don't give a ****" about Man u/Liverpool/Newcastle/Arsenal, etc, but we could well be seeing the soul ripped out of the game if we're not careful.
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Post by pushon on Feb 23, 2023 14:56:30 GMT
There are many complainants on this board referencing the lack of Football Cognizance at the very top of our club. It now seems that underskilled amateurs will be granted licence to influence decision making at a critical level in the administration of Football. It's a recipe for disaster. I wonder if Denise Coates will be willing to accept that the Family Board do not have total control of where and what on, Bet365, generated profits are spent.
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Post by Gods on Feb 23, 2023 14:59:39 GMT
Really stupid question but all the communications refer to 'fan this' and 'fan that' but what is a 'fan' these days? Is it someone who attends football matches (a small number of people) or someone who watches football through some other directly or indirectly paid means (an infinitely larger audience) ? I think most people would assume the first audience but football commerce is laser focused an the second global audience for obvious reasons. It's not a stupid question, Godfrey, it's an interesting one which we often debate. I think a key point is that the attraction of the latter depends to a significant extent on the existence of the former i.e without fans in the ground, and the atmosphere they create, the TV product would be much less attractive. And of course the lower down the pyramid you go, the more important gate income becomes. I understand what you are saying Malcolm. Since the fans are as much a part of the show as the football itself, or at the very least the football has no poignancy without them, I sometimes envisage a day when the fans are admitted free of charge or even paid to be there! They are in effect more a part of the show than they are the viewing public. A terrifying thought, to me at least!
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Post by shrewspotter on Feb 23, 2023 15:12:10 GMT
Plenty of time, Skip. Away prices in the Championship are becoming an issue of increasing concern Thank you for sharing Malcolm, I heard on the news it will also give the fans to express issues with changing of their Clubs kits. With the cost of living etc, hopefully it be considered to have the strips last for two seasons (similar to the late 80’s, early 90’s)? Rather than only 1 season, especially when the clubs are averaging 3 strips & training tops. I know Brentford didn’t have a new strip for the 22/23 season and kept the previous design. Great point, the other thing I think clubs should do is to adopt a permanent 2nd kit (and 3rd where appropriate). Our 2nd kit as I remember in the early 80's was sky blue, so our second kit should always be sky blue with a 3rd kit of yellow and black as an example. I look at our 2nd kit and think id like to buy it but its obsolete come May, this way it may be last seasons but at least the colors would be current dan
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Post by shrewspotter on Feb 23, 2023 15:16:57 GMT
To add to this discussion further, what makes Man Utd (for example) a “community club”? The overwhelming majority of its fan base live outside of Manchester. Surely, their views on certain topics are as diverse as their living situation? I (unfortunately) have a few American friends who are Man Utd fans. They were each very excited by the ESL and saw the club as a franchise first (because that’s their only point of reference). I had a lot of arguments with them about this, but at the end of the day, they buy the merch, watch the games and are emotionally tied to their outcomes. Their opinions should surely be as valid as anyone else’s? What makes a team a “community club” (a phrase I keep hearing on BBC/Sky with regards to this news)?. So true mate. Sky and the BBC are all to blame for helping fuel this too, we even have a Skysports channel devoted to transfer day for goodness sake, but you are right in the fact that when it comes to bigger clubs the local community club thing no longer really exists
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 23, 2023 15:16:58 GMT
Thank you for sharing Malcolm, I heard on the news it will also give the fans to express issues with changing of their Clubs kits. With the cost of living etc, hopefully it be considered to have the strips last for two seasons (similar to the late 80’s, early 90’s)? Rather than only 1 season, especially when the clubs are averaging 3 strips & training tops. I know Brentford didn’t have a new strip for the 22/23 season and kept the previous design. Great point, the other thing I think clubs should do is to adopt a permanent 2nd kit (and 3rd where appropriate). Our 2nd kit as I remember in the early 80's was sky blue, so our second kit should always be sky blue with a 3rd kit of yellow and black as an example. I look at our 2nd kit and think id like to buy it but its obsolete come May, this way it may be last seasons but at least the colors would be current dan I’d be happy if Stoke kept this years away kit forever
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Post by iamstokie on Feb 23, 2023 15:29:08 GMT
Plenty of time, Skip. Away prices in the Championship are becoming an issue of increasing concern Thank you for sharing Malcolm, I heard on the news it will also give the fans to express issues with changing of their Clubs kits. With the cost of living etc, hopefully it be considered to have the strips last for two seasons (similar to the late 80’s, early 90’s)? Rather than only 1 season, especially when the clubs are averaging 3 strips & training tops. I know Brentford didn’t have a new strip for the 22/23 season and kept the previous design. Nothing wrong with changing the strip every season , it’s a good source of income for smaller clubs as well
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Post by werrington on Feb 23, 2023 15:40:07 GMT
Aah the good sports minister …this is this morning
He seems a good sort
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Post by 36dd on Feb 23, 2023 17:01:17 GMT
Thank you for sharing Malcolm, I heard on the news it will also give the fans to express issues with changing of their Clubs kits. With the cost of living etc, hopefully it be considered to have the strips last for two seasons (similar to the late 80’s, early 90’s)? Rather than only 1 season, especially when the clubs are averaging 3 strips & training tops. I know Brentford didn’t have a new strip for the 22/23 season and kept the previous design. Nothing wrong with changing the strip every season , it’s a good source of income for smaller clubs as well The income will still be there because the shirt will continued to be sold, the mark up on kits is ridiculous, hence why there’s a 25% reduction on the white shirt, which will probably be reduced further. If the clubs wants revenue each season on shirt sales then alternate the sales of home shirt & then away shirt, thereby there is a kit launch each season.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 17:05:02 GMT
Aah the good sports minister …this is this morning He seems a good sort Well he's doing the right things with this White Paper. You don't need to pay £500 to the Conservative party for that Q & A - just ask me for free I'm on Signal Radio with George Andrews just after 6 if anyone's interested !
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 23, 2023 17:09:46 GMT
There are many complainants on this board referencing the lack of Football Cognizance at the very top of our club. It now seems that underskilled amateurs will be granted licence to influence decision making at a critical level in the administration of Football. It's a recipe for disaster. I wonder if Denise Coates will be willing to accept that the Family Board do not have total control of where and what on, Bet365, generated profits are spent. I'm not sure on what basis you conclude that the regulator will be staffed by "underskilled amateurs" ? No reason to believe that in my view. I do think that too many clubs have been run by underskilled amateurs or worse - skilled fleecers and egomaniacs.
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