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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2022 11:27:23 GMT
Nonsense. I've not said he's better than anyone. I just don't think he should be sacked. I’m not saying mon should be sacked because I don’t trust the board to appoint another manager My argument is Bruce is at least 4 times better than mon. How some people think he walks on water is beyond me not just with results but with performances The bloke who has been genuinely disliked at most clubs he's been at and got relegated countess times?
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Post by cdlstoke on Jan 27, 2022 11:32:12 GMT
Think early bird season ticket sales could push O’Neil through the door. Another big drop could see him gone. Less than 18k this season, from 22k pre-Covid. Think it could drop below 15k if are performances don’t improve, loads not turning up for game’s lately.
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Post by flea79 on Jan 27, 2022 11:38:24 GMT
Controversial but i think Mark Hughes would get this team promoted. The fans would never get on board with the idea so it would never happen. some talented players around the place with some experience thrown in too so its not too dissimilar in the way its made than stokealona was, your point has merit, but Hughes can burn
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 27, 2022 11:44:12 GMT
I rate Mowbray. The Blackburn model is a good one. However, look at the time scale it has taken to get them where they are now. I accept some of the criticism of O'Neill, notably game management but there have been glimpses of what we can do when on top form. I am not convinced that changing managers will solve the problem unless a stand out candidate is free and prepared to take on the job. It is easy to say "get rid" after a run of poor results but replacement is not easy and does not work more often than not. Patience is the key word. I am old enough to remember when Ritchie was transferred to Sheffield Wednesday. Those on the terraces were dubbing him a carthorse and that they were personally willing to convey him over the Pennines in a wheelbarrow. The rest is history. I don't know if it's true to say it doesn't work more often than not. You just have to make sure you get the replacement right. I don't think it's time to sack MON yet but if we'd applied 'the Mowbray model' to Lambert or Jones there's a good chance we'd be planning a trip to Cheltenham this weekend. We're talking MON here though not Lambert or Jones who showed in their first 20 matches which way they were taking us. I think Rowett is the only one other than MON you can apply the Mowbray model to but he lost the fans early. So far apart from avoiding relegation in his first season MON has followed a similar projector to Mowbray - clear out, consolidate while changing style of play, develop young players, don't panic etc but he is two years behind Mowbray so give him time.
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 27, 2022 11:49:51 GMT
Maybe the Blackburn approach will work.. and then again maybe it won't . They're not promoted yet! Time will tell on whether planting a seed and patiently waiting for it to hopefully grow will work. It seems our owners are of that mindset now but it is frustrating and uncertain
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 27, 2022 11:50:33 GMT
True - the Man City roar was a poor example given the context. I've only been to a few games this season, but there are times when I feel the team needs encouragement early on, and it doesn't come, and I can see the team is trying. We try things and they don't come off, and there's almost a collective sigh. I could be considered a hypocrite because I've never been vocal at football matches, but even forgetting the encouragement, I wish there was less negativity from the crowd. It's not as black and white as what's there on the pitch on the day. It's a really difficult one, but somehow I feel like the Oatcake forum negativity has spread more widely into the matchday. We still play good stuff at times, and I've seen far worse matches under Hughes and Pulis (who I'm both fans of overall, Pulis especially) where the atmosphere deserved to be deader than anything under O'Neill. I feel like O'Neill is STILL fighting a downward spiral and general malaise at the club, and it's unfortunate (but only natural) that's spread so widely to the matchday crowd. And I also challenge anyone to watch every match of a team above us (Fulham excepted) for a few weeks and see how they feel about the way Stoke play week-to-week then. We are far from an exception amongst the playoff contenders - we just happen to have not had a good run yet - and I don't think any team has had to deal with injuries to key players like we have over the past 2 seasons. I don't know enough about transfers and FFP of other clubs apart from Derby, but the fact we've got rid of Davies shows what an absolute state we're in FFP-wise and what's having to be done behind the scenes to avoid a points deduction while keeping in contention for the playoffs this season. Does the malaise argument wash anymore? It was certainly true at one time but isn't this largely his team now, comprised mainly of players he's either signed or brought through? I guess the argument is whether he's fighting it or contributing to it with his approach and game management. I don't think sacking him does us any good, certainly not at this point, but he often doesn't help himself. The malaise never seems like it's gone away to me. It was like a big stinking fog from the incinerator enveloping the club for a long time. It still lingers and stinks the place out at times. Maybe Walleys Landfill is a better analogy - I live 2-3 miles away and the worst of the stink seems to have disappeared after big holes were patched, but the stink is still unbearable at times. The malaise certainly isn't as bad as it was, but maybe increased negativity amongst fans is adding to it again? I agree O'Neill doesn't seem to help himself at times, but from the kind of managers we'd be linked with, I can't think of any manager I'd prefer in the position. I like most of the signings he's made and don't think all the permanent signings were expected to make an immediate impact. Every manager ever seems to make baffling decisions, and it's frustrating when managers don't seem to learn from their mistakes, although we have no or little idea of what goes on behind the scenes. I didn't see the Coventry match, but I don't think I'd be of the Terry Conroy (I think it was Conroy) opinion that the performance was completely down to the players and the manager shouldn't be at fault. But on the flipside, we had 7 players in the starting lineup who have barely played this season (for Stoke, or even at all), and that was largely due to necessity. I bet many of the negative nellies on this forum don't take that kind of thing into account when calling for O'Neill's head. A Football Manager is one of the few jobs that gets analysed by anyone and everyone, and too many of those people seem divorced from reality (not yourself, in case you might think I'm implying that ).
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 27, 2022 11:53:12 GMT
Can people stop saying "there are no other options". It's a ridiculous statement based on zero evidence.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2022 11:55:53 GMT
I don't know if it's true to say it doesn't work more often than not. You just have to make sure you get the replacement right. I don't think it's time to sack MON yet but if we'd applied 'the Mowbray model' to Lambert or Jones there's a good chance we'd be planning a trip to Cheltenham this weekend. We're talking MON here though not Lambert or Jones who showed in their first 20 matches which way they were taking us. I think Rowett is the only one other than MON you can apply the Mowbray model to but he lost the fans early. So far apart from avoiding relegation in his first season MON has followed a similar projector to Mowbray - clear out, consolidate while changing style of play, develop young players, don't panic etc but he is two years behind Mowbray so give him time. Can't agree about Rowett, he's an imbecile and an architect of our current situation. Fair point in that MON has shown more than previous managers and I agree it's not time to sack him. Equally you seem to be giving him a free pass on the myriad things he's got and is getting wrong and those need to be part of the conversation too.
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Post by hyaduck on Jan 27, 2022 11:55:56 GMT
Controversial but i think Mark Hughes would get this team promoted. The fans would never get on board with the idea so it would never happen. some talented players around the place with some experience thrown in too so its not too dissimilar in the way its made than stokealona was, your point has merit, but Hughes can burn I’d have Hughes back in a heartbeat!!!!
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Post by lagwafis on Jan 27, 2022 11:58:23 GMT
Can I just clear something up. My understanding was that FFP only applied to the playing side and not the staff and coaching set up. So does the manager fall into the playing side or the coaching? And if the coaching then his dismissal wouldn’t impact on FFP? Would it? Apparently it all counts... www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/everton-farhad-moshiri-rafa-benitez-22776598Benitez joins Roberto Martinez, Ronald Koeman, Sam Allardyce and Marco Silva in potentially costing Everton up to £48m in severance payments. And that sum has gone towards their FFP issues, counted in the same way that player transfer fees and wages are when calculating whether or not a club is in breach. Isn't O'Neill on £1.5 million a year over a four year deal (if we can trust this article) Things need to improve but I'd be very surprised if the club don't give him the next 12/18 months.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2022 11:58:55 GMT
Does the malaise argument wash anymore? It was certainly true at one time but isn't this largely his team now, comprised mainly of players he's either signed or brought through? I guess the argument is whether he's fighting it or contributing to it with his approach and game management. I don't think sacking him does us any good, certainly not at this point, but he often doesn't help himself. The malaise never seems like it's gone away to me. It was like a big stinking fog from the incinerator enveloping the club for a long time. It still lingers and stinks the place out at times. Maybe Walleys Landfill is a better analogy - I live 2-3 miles away and the worst of the stink seems to have disappeared after big holes were patched, but the stink is still unbearable at times. The malaise certainly isn't as bad as it was, but maybe increased negativity amongst fans is adding to it again? I agree O'Neill doesn't seem to help himself at times, but from the kind of managers we'd be linked with, I can't think of any manager I'd prefer in the position. I like most of the signings he's made and don't think all the permanent signings were expected to make an immediate impact. Every manager ever seems to make baffling decisions, and it's frustrating when managers don't seem to learn from their mistakes, although we have no or little idea of what goes on behind the scenes. I didn't see the Coventry match, but I don't think I'd be of the Terry Conroy (I think it was Conroy) opinion that the performance was completely down to the players and the manager shouldn't be at fault. But on the flipside, we had 7 players in the starting lineup who have barely played this season (for Stoke, or even at all), and that was largely due to necessity. I bet many of the negative nellies on this forum don't take that kind of thing into account when calling for O'Neill's head. A Football Manager is one of the few jobs that gets analysed by anyone and everyone, and too many of those people seem divorced from reality (not yourself, in case you might think I'm implying that ). But isn't that very much part of the manager's remit? The manager can't get the credit for victories and be absolved entirely of blame for defeats? It really isn't the fans' fault. They aren't picking the team, they aren't signing the players, they aren't making weird changes that throw the game away. There are mitigating circumstances for sure but his own recruitment and game management are causes for concern.
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Post by stokie223 on Jan 27, 2022 12:01:18 GMT
I’m not saying mon should be sacked because I don’t trust the board to appoint another manager My argument is Bruce is at least 4 times better than mon. How some people think he walks on water is beyond me not just with results but with performances The bloke who has been genuinely disliked at most clubs he's been at and got relegated countess times? Can't believe Bruce's name has even come up. Car crash manager. He was absolutely shocking at Newcastle, and how he got a premier league job I'll never know. People moan about MON wasting money when in reality he's had a pittance - Bruce spent £80m on Almiron, Joelinton & ASM...
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 27, 2022 12:10:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2022 12:24:07 GMT
Exactly. It's fucking laughable in the extreme, but at least it's only one bloke saying it. The irony isnt lost on me though. You’ve no argument though have you. I’m not saying O’Neil should be sacked just Bruce is better (proven) What Bruce has done in the past is meaningless to our situation. There is no way of knowing whether he would do or have done a better job than MON. I'm not arguing that he has a "proven" track record in this division. I could name shit loads of wank managers who have a more "proven" track record than MON in League football seeing as though MON has been a manager of an international team for so long. You would have Bruce here as a manager, I wouldn't, and like I said previously, after about 18 months or less in our hot seat we would have just as many, if not more people saying exactly what they're saying now.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 27, 2022 12:30:25 GMT
If a new manager could guarantee us real progress from the off then I'd go for him to replace MON but it doesn't work like that. Have supporters not learned anything from the last few years of changing managers? If we were in the relegation zone then I'd probably be with those that want a change. But we're not. We're still in a transitional stage and no way do I want to change the manager until we've given transition a time to work. Many supporters don't have the patience to wait to see it work but they're the same ones who think we should be a Premiership side because we once spent ten years there. It doesn't work like that. Have a look at the leagues below us to see teams who supporters think they should be with the crowd at the top because they were once classed as a top side.
OS.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 27, 2022 12:31:36 GMT
Exactly. It's fucking laughable in the extreme, but at least it's only one bloke saying it. The irony isnt lost on me though. You’ve no argument though have you. I’m not saying O’Neil should be sacked just Bruce is better (proven) Is Bruce proven to be better though? Everywhere O'Neill has been, he's left his team in a better position when he left.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 27, 2022 12:35:19 GMT
The malaise never seems like it's gone away to me. It was like a big stinking fog from the incinerator enveloping the club for a long time. It still lingers and stinks the place out at times. Maybe Walleys Landfill is a better analogy - I live 2-3 miles away and the worst of the stink seems to have disappeared after big holes were patched, but the stink is still unbearable at times. The malaise certainly isn't as bad as it was, but maybe increased negativity amongst fans is adding to it again? I agree O'Neill doesn't seem to help himself at times, but from the kind of managers we'd be linked with, I can't think of any manager I'd prefer in the position. I like most of the signings he's made and don't think all the permanent signings were expected to make an immediate impact. Every manager ever seems to make baffling decisions, and it's frustrating when managers don't seem to learn from their mistakes, although we have no or little idea of what goes on behind the scenes. I didn't see the Coventry match, but I don't think I'd be of the Terry Conroy (I think it was Conroy) opinion that the performance was completely down to the players and the manager shouldn't be at fault. But on the flipside, we had 7 players in the starting lineup who have barely played this season (for Stoke, or even at all), and that was largely due to necessity. I bet many of the negative nellies on this forum don't take that kind of thing into account when calling for O'Neill's head. A Football Manager is one of the few jobs that gets analysed by anyone and everyone, and too many of those people seem divorced from reality (not yourself, in case you might think I'm implying that ). But isn't that very much part of the manager's remit? The manager can't get the credit for victories and be absolved entirely of blame for defeats? It really isn't the fans' fault. They aren't picking the team, they aren't signing the players, they aren't making weird changes that throw the game away. There are mitigating circumstances for sure but his own recruitment and game management are causes for concern. I'm definitely not blaming the fans, but I think it would help if we (as a collective) were less negative and saw the bigger picture, such as those 7 players with hardly any game time for us in the starting lineup on Tuesday.
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Post by lstokie on Jan 27, 2022 12:36:45 GMT
Lose against Huddersfield, and MON will be gone. Not a chance
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jan 27, 2022 12:36:50 GMT
The malaise never seems like it's gone away to me. It was like a big stinking fog from the incinerator enveloping the club for a long time. It still lingers and stinks the place out at times. Maybe Walleys Landfill is a better analogy - I live 2-3 miles away and the worst of the stink seems to have disappeared after big holes were patched, but the stink is still unbearable at times. The malaise certainly isn't as bad as it was, but maybe increased negativity amongst fans is adding to it again? I agree O'Neill doesn't seem to help himself at times, but from the kind of managers we'd be linked with, I can't think of any manager I'd prefer in the position. I like most of the signings he's made and don't think all the permanent signings were expected to make an immediate impact. Every manager ever seems to make baffling decisions, and it's frustrating when managers don't seem to learn from their mistakes, although we have no or little idea of what goes on behind the scenes. I didn't see the Coventry match, but I don't think I'd be of the Terry Conroy (I think it was Conroy) opinion that the performance was completely down to the players and the manager shouldn't be at fault. But on the flipside, we had 7 players in the starting lineup who have barely played this season (for Stoke, or even at all), and that was largely due to necessity. I bet many of the negative nellies on this forum don't take that kind of thing into account when calling for O'Neill's head. A Football Manager is one of the few jobs that gets analysed by anyone and everyone, and too many of those people seem divorced from reality (not yourself, in case you might think I'm implying that ). But isn't that very much part of the manager's remit? The manager can't get the credit for victories and be absolved entirely of blame for defeats? It really isn't the fans' fault. They aren't picking the team, they aren't signing the players, they aren't making weird changes that throw the game away. There are mitigating circumstances for sure but his own recruitment and game management are causes for concern. His recruitment is good when you consider the financial backdrop. He has cut the wage bill by 60% or so spent next to nothing compared to Rowett and Jones and improved the squad and moved us up the league positionally. Yes we would all like better players but it won’t be until this summer that we can compete in wages and pay transfer fees of any size. I can’t defend Chester but his other signings are pound for pound way better than the player they replaced eg Baker for Woods, Fletcher for Vokes, Wilmott for Batth, Fox for Lindsay etc. Surridge and Doughty yet to come good but could well be better than Gregory and McClean
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Post by theonlooker on Jan 27, 2022 12:38:16 GMT
If a new manager could guarantee us real progress from the off then I'd go for him to replace MON but it doesn't work like that. Have supporters not learned anything from the last few years of changing managers? If we were in the relegation zone then I'd probably be with those that want a change. But we're not. We're still in a transitional stage and no way do I want to change the manager until we've given transition a time to work. Many supporters don't have the patience to wait to see it work but they're the same ones who think we should be a Premiership side because we once spent ten years there. It doesn't work like that. Have a look at the leagues below us to see teams who supporters think they should be with the crowd at the top because they were once classed as a top side. OS. The problem is, we aren't going to get anywhere near the crowd at the top playing the football we are playing. Slow, turgid, lacking in creativity, bite and steel. Carry on playing like that until the cows come home, give the manager as much time and patience as we want. If the approach doesn't change, the end result won't change. Given we are down with the dead men in terms of creativity of chances and xG since the West Brom game, my opinion is that any forward thinking football club will track that and get the key components that are responsible for that removed at the earliest opportunity. If this football carries on until the summer (second season in a row) AND they keep the manager in position then they deserve everything they get. We aren't playing well and getting shafted by decisions or circumstances here. We aren't missing chance after chance. We're playing poorly in the main and are getting exactly what we deserve from games - Hull away recently excepted.
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mole
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Post by mole on Jan 27, 2022 12:40:51 GMT
How can you want O'Neil out? Stoke were bottom with 8 points from 14 games when he arrived Nov 2019. We are no longer that mess he inherited, but is still dealing with.
He's had us in and around the play offs this season. He still has dead wood in the team. The formation hasn't worked at times, perhaps the players are at fault here. I'm sure Chester would not be playing if Wilmot was fit at the moment. Chester is not good enough for us, poor player in possession. He goes back inside and back with his passing, he doesn't seem not confident enough to go wide early or forward.
We've got players like Tommy Smith killing momentum by turning back instead of taking on his man. His crosses when they eventually come haven't been good enough after the first few games of the season.
We've been unlucky with injuries. Campbell needs to work harder to get back in that team. He would prefer a wide position to come in from I'm sure, but he was firing on all cylinders with MON before his injury.
Taylor Harwood-Bellis is very young and made a mistake last game, or that game despite being dull likely ends up as a draw.
MON knew our defence wasn't good enough which is why he swapped two players straight into the team when they signed. I would like to see us be more attacking at home. I think we are going to start turning a corner soon.
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Post by heworksardtho on Jan 27, 2022 12:43:44 GMT
What if I buy a scratch card and win a million What if the earth is really glad What if the moon 🌝 is made of cheese Yeah. Kinda my point. How can you definitively say he should get sacked if we don’t get top 6 when we have no way of knowing how the season will play out. How about. Wait till the end of the season and make a call then? Ok I’m in 👍
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Post by stokie223 on Jan 27, 2022 12:47:22 GMT
You’ve no argument though have you. I’m not saying O’Neil should be sacked just Bruce is better (proven) What Bruce has done in the past is meaningless to our situation. There is no way of knowing whether he would do or have done a better job than MON. I'm not arguing that he has a "proven" track record in this division. I could name shit loads of wank managers who have a more "proven" track record than MON in League football seeing as though MON has been a manager of an international team for so long. You would have Bruce here as a manager, I wouldn't, and like I said previously, after about 18 months or less in our hot seat we would have just as many, if not more people saying exactly what they're saying now. Bruce and Warnock both have, relatively speaking, a decent record of getting teams promoted in the past but I wouldn't touch either of them with a barge pole. They're a spent force. If we genuinely hired Bruce (I don't think we would for what it's worth) then I don't think he'd get anywhere even close to 18 months before the vast, vast majority of us would be calling for his head. Bruce is clueless - summed up by this quote from Callum Wilson: “I think Graeme Jones coming in as a coach (in January), definitely complemented the manager because he’s a little bit more tactically aware and up to date, whereas the manager has his different strengths and attributes"
If you're Steve Bruce, that is laughably embarrassing. He's just stopped short of calling him a dinosaur. I'm pretty certain Wilson has said a few other things since they signed Howe too, along with a few other Newcastle players.
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Post by march4 on Jan 27, 2022 12:50:14 GMT
Lose against Huddersfield, and MON will be gone. Not a chance Lose on Friday and in the cup and I think he will be in trouble.
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mole
Spectator
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Post by mole on Jan 27, 2022 12:58:01 GMT
Would love to see us line up like this...
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2022 13:01:51 GMT
But isn't that very much part of the manager's remit? The manager can't get the credit for victories and be absolved entirely of blame for defeats? It really isn't the fans' fault. They aren't picking the team, they aren't signing the players, they aren't making weird changes that throw the game away. There are mitigating circumstances for sure but his own recruitment and game management are causes for concern. I'm definitely not blaming the fans, but I think it would help if we (as a collective) were less negative and saw the bigger picture, such as those 7 players with hardly any game time for us in the starting lineup on Tuesday. He wasn't forced to play those seven players though, that just seems like an excuse? Yes some of them will take time to gel but the problems have been with the players who have been playing regularly - Chester, Clucas etc?
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 27, 2022 13:05:04 GMT
If a new manager could guarantee us real progress from the off then I'd go for him to replace MON but it doesn't work like that. Have supporters not learned anything from the last few years of changing managers? If we were in the relegation zone then I'd probably be with those that want a change. But we're not. We're still in a transitional stage and no way do I want to change the manager until we've given transition a time to work. Many supporters don't have the patience to wait to see it work but they're the same ones who think we should be a Premiership side because we once spent ten years there. It doesn't work like that. Have a look at the leagues below us to see teams who supporters think they should be with the crowd at the top because they were once classed as a top side. OS. The problem is, we aren't going to get anywhere near the crowd at the top playing the football we are playing. Slow, turgid, lacking in creativity, bite and steel. Carry on playing like that until the cows come home, give the manager as much time and patience as we want. If the approach doesn't change, the end result won't change. Given we are down with the dead men in terms of creativity of chances and xG since the West Brom game, my opinion is that any forward thinking football club will track that and get the key components that are responsible for that removed at the earliest opportunity. If this football carries on until the summer (second season in a row) AND they keep the manager in position then they deserve everything they get. We aren't playing well and getting shafted by decisions or circumstances here. We aren't missing chance after chance. We're playing poorly in the main and are getting exactly what we deserve from games - Hull away recently excepted. Was it a coincidence that MON wasn't at the game? Possibly could've been that the backline was newly constructed so they weren't being encouraged to pass it around too much? Or maybe just Hull were poor. I would say we definitely played noticeably more quickly from the back to the front. With good long balls etc. I don't know
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 27, 2022 13:05:30 GMT
Controversial but i think Mark Hughes would get this team promoted. The fans would never get on board with the idea so it would never happen. some talented players around the place with some experience thrown in too so its not too dissimilar in the way its made than stokealona was, your point has merit, but Hughes can burn Bar the odd one or two, the experienced players are poor footballers. Throw that in with the inconsistency of youth then it's no wonder where we are.
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Post by northernstokie on Jan 27, 2022 13:28:08 GMT
I can't see MON leaving unless there is a massive attitude against him at matches. We all know that our owners are not trigger happy. I can see him staying till the end of the season then reassess then.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jan 27, 2022 13:33:28 GMT
The lack of respect for a bloke that’s worked his knackers off to stabilise this club since coming here is disgraceful.Yes we’re having a bad run but we’ll come out of it and yet again numerous posters will made to look pathetic Its the terroitory hes paid £1.5 m a year for her did a great Red Adair job two years ago but the evidence is categorical we have not moved forward to anything like the level required to even make the play offs He had a mid table 55 point tem two years ago and has one now ,his recruitment has been poor not a single loan has made a difference , his better players were here when he arrived and his peer group like Wilder and Cooper are showing the it takes time to make a difference ids the tag line of mediocrity . His appointment as a saviour was fine but the huge gaps in his CV were as stated at the time were 1 No evidence of domestic promotion campaign 2 Critically no evidence of managing a UK transfer window Both of these pretty critical in our objectives now its possible to lean on other enormous successes see Gerrard but there isnt much evidence to support success with the other international teams is a good pedigree Coleman and Clarke good of examples of the benchmark is higher in the championship where they both struggled despite success in the international arena
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