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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 20:02:43 GMT
The debate had been going on for years in Bristol, despite overwhelming support for the statue being pulled down the local council did nothing, the people have spoken. Do you always respect the rule of law? I did until covid bollocks started 😉 Exactly!!
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Post by felonious on Jan 5, 2022 20:03:35 GMT
What about a convicted criminal terrorist who then went onto live an amazing life and became president after all its only the bad part of a person's life that counts. Not for me mate, he inspired some great music
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 20:04:09 GMT
Glad the statue is gone, It's 2022, we shouldn't be venerating those who were heavily involved in the slave trade, regardless of how different times were back then. But it should've been taken down professionally and placed in a museum. What if someone had been injured (it's happened elsewhere)? Fair play to them for moving a statue though, from the look of them I'm surprised they could lift a chess piece. It’s in a museum so they got there in the end…….
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Post by felonious on Jan 5, 2022 20:06:35 GMT
What if there was a statue of a historic figure who it since came to light was a known paedophile? You mean like the one adorning Broadcasting House? When are they going to tear that one down? What, there's a statue of Lord Ahmed outside Broadcasting House?
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Post by hoffgreen on Jan 5, 2022 20:12:06 GMT
You mean like the one adorning Broadcasting House? When are they going to tear that one down? What, there's a statue of Lord Ahmed outside Broadcasting House? The Eric Gill statue that adorns the BBC'S broadcasting house. Fiddled his own kids and shagged his dog... There's a theme here at the BBC 🤔
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 20:14:09 GMT
I love this “they’d tried all over avenues” line. Literally just “it was ok for us to commit this crime because we asked for something and didn’t get it” I wonder what the other avenues were? The man in the know still hasn’t divulged his inside info🤔 I went for a run. A quick Google search shows demonstrations, petitions, alternative plaques being superimposed on the statute and other means going back to 2010 and beyond. It’s been an ongoing issue particularly amongst Bristol’s black population. Buildings, schools, a pub even all dropped the Colston reference at before the BLM demonstrations leading to the statue being removed. The Council and Mayor have both since acknowledged they should have acted earlier in removing the statue…….
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 20:43:46 GMT
Crafty has been triggered it seems, he’s up for desecrating a grave……
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Post by PotterLog on Jan 5, 2022 20:47:41 GMT
I wonder what the other avenues were? The man in the know still hasn’t divulged his inside info🤔 I went for a run. A quick Google search shows demonstrations, petitions, alternative plaques being superimposed on the statute and other means going back to 2010 and beyond. It’s been an ongoing issue particularly amongst Bristol’s black population. Buildings, schools, a pub even all dropped the Colston reference at before the BLM demonstrations leading to the statue being removed. The Council and Mayor have both since acknowledged they should have acted earlier in removing the statue……. If the Council had acted earlier in some way, would the Colston Four - and, more broadly, the British BLM movement - have accepted a compromise whereby Colston's regrettable involvement in the aberration of slavery was acknowledged and condemned, but his contribution to the development of the city of Bristol, from which all its contemporary inhabitants, white and black, now benefit, was still recognised and (dare I say) celebrated? Or is outright disposal and erasure from the public sphere the only acceptable option? Perhaps a reasonable compromise could have been reached through dialogue without it getting to a scenario where criminal damage is deemed legally permissible by the UK courts on ideological grounds.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 20:51:02 GMT
I went for a run. A quick Google search shows demonstrations, petitions, alternative plaques being superimposed on the statute and other means going back to 2010 and beyond. It’s been an ongoing issue particularly amongst Bristol’s black population. Buildings, schools, a pub even all dropped the Colston reference at before the BLM demonstrations leading to the statue being removed. The Council and Mayor have both since acknowledged they should have acted earlier in removing the statue……. If the Council had acted earlier in some way, would the Colston Four - and, more broadly, the British BLM movement - have accepted a compromise whereby Colston's regrettable involvement in the aberration of slavery was acknowledged and condemned, but his contribution to the development of the city of Bristol, from which all its contemporary inhabitants, white and black, now benefit, was still recognised and (dare I say) celebrated? Or is outright disposal and erasure from the public sphere the only acceptable option? Perhaps a reasonable compromise could have been reached through dialogue without it getting to a scenario where criminal damage is deemed legally permissible by the UK courts on ideological grounds. One of the requests was that it was put in a new museum of slavery that was being proposed in the docks at the time with the fully history attached to it warts and all, so on that basis I’d say yes……
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Post by swampmongrel on Jan 5, 2022 21:33:27 GMT
If the Council had acted earlier in some way, would the Colston Four - and, more broadly, the British BLM movement - have accepted a compromise whereby Colston's regrettable involvement in the aberration of slavery was acknowledged and condemned, but his contribution to the development of the city of Bristol, from which all its contemporary inhabitants, white and black, now benefit, was still recognised and (dare I say) celebrated? Or is outright disposal and erasure from the public sphere the only acceptable option? Perhaps a reasonable compromise could have been reached through dialogue without it getting to a scenario where criminal damage is deemed legally permissible by the UK courts on ideological grounds. One of the requests was that it was put in a new museum of slavery that was being proposed in the docks at the time with the fully history attached to it warts and all, so on that basis I’d say yes…… I worked in Bristol for a few years (over ten years) and the Colston thing was a thing back then. The easy thing woud have been for the Council to take it down. Doing so was in their gift. Who’s been running Bristol Council for the past 20 odds years?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 21:42:18 GMT
One of the requests was that it was put in a new museum of slavery that was being proposed in the docks at the time with the fully history attached to it warts and all, so on that basis I’d say yes…… I worked in Bristol for a few years (over ten years) and the Colston thing was a thing back then. The easy thing woud have been for the Council to take it down. Doing so was in their gift. Who’s been running Bristol Council for the past 20 odds years? Not sure without checking but I’m guessing Labour?
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Post by swampmongrel on Jan 5, 2022 21:45:22 GMT
I worked in Bristol for a few years (over ten years) and the Colston thing was a thing back then. The easy thing woud have been for the Council to take it down. Doing so was in their gift. Who’s been running Bristol Council for the past 20 odds years? Not sure without checking but I’m guessing Labour? I don’t know either. Looking at election results it looks like most seats on the council swung between Lib Dems and Labour over the past twenty years.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 5, 2022 22:09:44 GMT
Crafty has been triggered it seems, he’s up for desecrating a grave…… Ultimately it’s all tit for tat stuff isn’t it. Take the politics away and both what Grimes is suggesting and what the 4 did is criminal damage and neither act is right whatever your stance. Where does it end if the attitude of the 4 and Grimes is taken by everyone? Everyone thinking they’re in the right and destroying the opposite sides properties.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jan 5, 2022 22:26:58 GMT
Even if that meant it being stood there for years? I don't know enough about what was done beforehand in this instance to be able to properly comment. Do you really think a statue of a convicted paedophile would be allowed to stand there for years, really? Completely different to an historical figure from centuries back now being re-evaluated. I think the point is that it shouldn't be. Being heavily involved in the slave trade should be considered as abhorrent as things like paedophilia are. There shouldn't even be a debate. The easiest thing to do would just to not put statues up in the first place. I don't even know why they're needed.
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Post by PotterLog on Jan 5, 2022 22:35:36 GMT
Crafty has been triggered it seems, he’s up for desecrating a grave…… Ultimately it’s all tit for tat stuff isn’t it. Take the politics away and both what Grimes is suggesting and what the 4 did is criminal damage and neither act is right whatever your stance. Where does it end if the attitude of the 4 and Grimes is taken by everyone? Everyone thinking they’re in the right and destroying the opposite sides properties. That’s exactly Grimes’ point though isn’t it He literally says he believes he *doesn’t* have the right to vandalise the Marx monument in that video.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 5, 2022 23:05:43 GMT
Ultimately it’s all tit for tat stuff isn’t it. Take the politics away and both what Grimes is suggesting and what the 4 did is criminal damage and neither act is right whatever your stance. Where does it end if the attitude of the 4 and Grimes is taken by everyone? Everyone thinking they’re in the right and destroying the opposite sides properties. That’s exactly Grimes’ point though isn’t it He literally says he believes he *doesn’t* have the right to vandalise the Marx monument in that video. if that’s the case then he’s bang on
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 5, 2022 23:13:06 GMT
Do you really think a statue of a convicted paedophile would be allowed to stand there for years, really? Completely different to an historical figure from centuries back now being re-evaluated. I think the point is that it shouldn't be. Being heavily involved in the slave trade should be considered as abhorrent as things like paedophilia are. There shouldn't even be a debate. The easiest thing to do would just to not put statues up in the first place. I don't even know why they're needed. it’s nice to have statues up though to recognise heroes and celebrate history good and bad. I just think people are too easily offended by things that happened 100s of years ago. There’s a lot of things that aren’t right including slavery but deleting everything that’s wrong isn’t the answer. People need to learn about history good and bad and they have a right to make their own minds up and to discuss it. When i was a nipper i used to love going into London for a day and seeing the sights like Nelsons column and reading the stories on the statues. It was a learning experience and one that shouldn’t be taken away from kids now because a minority are offended because it’s something they don’t agree with.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 5, 2022 23:23:53 GMT
I think the point is that it shouldn't be. Being heavily involved in the slave trade should be considered as abhorrent as things like paedophilia are. There shouldn't even be a debate. The easiest thing to do would just to not put statues up in the first place. I don't even know why they're needed. it’s nice to have statues up though to recognise heroes and celebrate history good and bad. I just think people are too easily offended by things that happened 100s of years ago. There’s a lot of things that aren’t right including slavery but deleting everything that’s wrong isn’t the answer. People need to learn about history good and bad and they have a right to make their own minds up and to discuss it. When i was a nipper i used to love going into London for a day and seeing the sights like Nelsons column and reading the stories on the statues. It was a learning experience and one that shouldn’t be taken away from kids now because a minority are offended because it’s something they don’t agree with. The problem is (aside from the fact most the BLM cheerleaders are a bunch of rich, privileged, white kids), the people cheering this stuff on don't understand the first thing about what they are claiming to support. Or indeed, the guy they are trying to shame. They also, for some bizarre reason, seem completely inept at contextualising history. Contextualisation is absolutely everything when it comes to studying historical events. Shall we fuck off the entirety of Ancient Rome and any associated statues because let's face it, Augustus, Nero, Caligula etc were all absolutely vile, racist, rapist, murdering, psychopathic dictators? It's called history and guess what, right and wrong evolve over time. I can't get my head around why people cannot comprehend this.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 23:31:21 GMT
it’s nice to have statues up though to recognise heroes and celebrate history good and bad. I just think people are too easily offended by things that happened 100s of years ago. There’s a lot of things that aren’t right including slavery but deleting everything that’s wrong isn’t the answer. People need to learn about history good and bad and they have a right to make their own minds up and to discuss it. When i was a nipper i used to love going into London for a day and seeing the sights like Nelsons column and reading the stories on the statues. It was a learning experience and one that shouldn’t be taken away from kids now because a minority are offended because it’s something they don’t agree with. The problem is (aside from the fact most the BLM cheerleaders are a bunch of rich, privileged, white kids), the people cheering this stuff on don't understand the first thing about what they are claiming to support. Or indeed, the guy they are trying to shame. They also, for some bizarre reason, seem completely inept at contextualising history. Contextualisation is absolutely everything when it comes to studying historical events. Shall we fuck off the entirety of Ancient Rome and any associated statues because let's face it, Augustus, Nero, Caligula etc were all absolutely vile, racist, rapist, murdering, psychopathic dictators? It's called history and guess what, right and wrong evolve over time. I can't get my head around why people cannot comprehend this. The people of Bristol have a deep understanding of exactly who Colston is as well as the history of the slave trade in their city, you only have to walk around the centre and see the street names, pubs and buildings it's all around them. Places like Glasgow and Liverpool are the same.......
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 5, 2022 23:35:10 GMT
The problem is (aside from the fact most the BLM cheerleaders are a bunch of rich, privileged, white kids), the people cheering this stuff on don't understand the first thing about what they are claiming to support. Or indeed, the guy they are trying to shame. They also, for some bizarre reason, seem completely inept at contextualising history. Contextualisation is absolutely everything when it comes to studying historical events. Shall we fuck off the entirety of Ancient Rome and any associated statues because let's face it, Augustus, Nero, Caligula etc were all absolutely vile, racist, rapist, murdering, psychopathic dictators? It's called history and guess what, right and wrong evolve over time. I can't get my head around why people cannot comprehend this. The people of Bristol have a deep understanding of exactly who Colston is as well as the history of the slave trade in their city, you only have to walk around the centre and see the street names, pubs and buildings it's all around them. Places like Glasgow and Liverpool are the same....... Any many many people in Bristol didn't agree with the ripping down of the statue. Out of interest, do you think we should start ripping down Ancient Rome ruins? After all, there was a lot of evil in Ancient Rome. Far more evil than a mere merchant like Edward Colston.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 5, 2022 23:55:00 GMT
The people of Bristol have a deep understanding of exactly who Colston is as well as the history of the slave trade in their city, you only have to walk around the centre and see the street names, pubs and buildings it's all around them. Places like Glasgow and Liverpool are the same....... Any many many people in Bristol didn't agree with the ripping down of the statue. Out of interest, do you think we should start ripping down Ancient Rome ruins? After all, there was a lot of evil in Ancient Rome. Far more evil than a mere merchant like Edward Colston. The statue is in a museum, where anyone is able to see it along with the history of Colston warts and all. I'm not sure many people are advocating erasing history or "ripping down" buildings or ruins, it's no different to Nazi memorials being moved from Berlin's streets to the city's museums. Should they have all been left on show for all to see?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 5, 2022 23:57:56 GMT
The problem is (aside from the fact most the BLM cheerleaders are a bunch of rich, privileged, white kids), the people cheering this stuff on don't understand the first thing about what they are claiming to support. Or indeed, the guy they are trying to shame. They also, for some bizarre reason, seem completely inept at contextualising history. Contextualisation is absolutely everything when it comes to studying historical events. Shall we fuck off the entirety of Ancient Rome and any associated statues because let's face it, Augustus, Nero, Caligula etc were all absolutely vile, racist, rapist, murdering, psychopathic dictators? It's called history and guess what, right and wrong evolve over time. I can't get my head around why people cannot comprehend this. The people of Bristol have a deep understanding of exactly who Colston is as well as the history of the slave trade in their city, you only have to walk around the centre and see the street names, pubs and buildings it's all around them. Places like Glasgow and Liverpool are the same....... It’s a big city though. Can you categorically say it’s the majority or is it just the most vocal, some of whom Id imagine don’t even live there. You only have to look at the riots to see that some of those setting fire to buildings / vehicle were just anarchists. This chap being the perfect example www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/news/2021/12/14-year-jail-sentence-for-man-who-tried-to-set-fire-to-occupied-police-vans-during-riot/Is it ok for him to do what he did coked up because he said he was doing it for a cause. Id suggest some not all do it not for the cause but because they get a buzz out of causing mayhem.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 6, 2022 0:04:32 GMT
Any many many people in Bristol didn't agree with the ripping down of the statue. Out of interest, do you think we should start ripping down Ancient Rome ruins? After all, there was a lot of evil in Ancient Rome. Far more evil than a mere merchant like Edward Colston. The statue is in a museum, where anyone is able to see it along with the history of Colston warts and all. I'm not sure many people are advocating erasing history or "ripping down" buildings or ruins, it's no different to Nazi memorials being moved from Berlin's streets to the city's museums. Should they have all been left on show for all to see? It's very different to Nazi memorials (for countless reasons, some of which I highlighted earlier) but you know that. The two aren't remotely comparable.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 6, 2022 0:06:20 GMT
The statue is in a museum, where anyone is able to see it along with the history of Colston warts and all. I'm not sure many people are advocating erasing history or "ripping down" buildings or ruins, it's no different to Nazi memorials being moved from Berlin's streets to the city's museums. Should they have all been left on show for all to see? It's very different to Nazi memorials (for countless reasons, some of which I highlighted earlier) but you know that. The two aren't remotely comparable. But ancient Roman ruins are?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 6, 2022 0:14:51 GMT
It's very different to Nazi memorials (for countless reasons, some of which I highlighted earlier) but you know that. The two aren't remotely comparable. But ancient Roman ruins are? Of course they are if you are trying to justify ripping down statues of people who existed over 300 years ago on the basis they are "nasty people". Its an absurdity. I'm also not remotely convinced you can say with any confidence that the majority of Bristolians agreed with the ripping down of the statue. Did you see the state of those responsible? If you're seriously suggesting those zombies had spent time studying colonial history and the history of slavery in any depth then you're badly mistaken.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 6, 2022 4:44:15 GMT
But ancient Roman ruins are? Of course they are if you are trying to justify ripping down statues of people who existed over 300 years ago on the basis they are "nasty people". Its an absurdity. I'm also not remotely convinced you can say with any confidence that the majority of Bristolians agreed with the ripping down of the statue. Did you see the state of those responsible? If you're seriously suggesting those zombies had spent time studying colonial history and the history of slavery in any depth then you're badly mistaken. Prestwich has clearly decided he rather likes populism. Because that is what this is.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 6, 2022 4:48:59 GMT
Ultimately it’s all tit for tat stuff isn’t it. Take the politics away and both what Grimes is suggesting and what the 4 did is criminal damage and neither act is right whatever your stance. Where does it end if the attitude of the 4 and Grimes is taken by everyone? Everyone thinking they’re in the right and destroying the opposite sides properties. That’s exactly Grimes’ point though isn’t it He literally says he believes he *doesn’t* have the right to vandalise the Marx monument in that video. It’s an obvious point. The court has established a precedent that public vandalism is fine, provided your motives are popular enough. I wonder if any opportunists will fancy renewed attacks on Churchill, Cromwell, Rhodes (although he is a bit too high to easily access) and anyone else that provokes displeasure. Btw, I expect the Insulate Britain crew will have noted this decision with interest.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jan 6, 2022 7:26:08 GMT
There’s no doubt that slavery is very bad both back then and now. interesting though that there were some positives to Colston which appear to have gone unnoticed and haven’t been mentioned once in relation to balancing good and bad.
quote
“Although the extent of his wealth that was earned from the slave trade can only be conjectured, Colston supported and endowed schools, houses for the poor, almshouses, hospitals and Anglican churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. His name features widely on Bristol buildings and landmarks.[7][15] Colston used his money and power to promote order in the form of High Anglicanism in the Church of England and oppose Anglican Latitudinarians, Roman Catholics, and dissenter Protestants.[16]
In Bristol, he founded almshouses in King Street and Colstons Almshouses on St Michael's Hill, endowed Queen Elizabeth's Hospital school, and helped found Colston's Hospital, a boarding school which opened in 1710 leaving an endowment to be managed by the Society of Merchant Venturers for its upkeep.[3] He gave money to schools in Temple (one of which went on to become St Mary Redcliffe and Temple School) and other parts of Bristol, and to several churches and the cathedral.[3][17]
David Hughson, writing in 1808, described Colston as "the great benefactor of the city of Bristol, who, in his lifetime, expended more than 70,000L. [£] in charitable institutions",[18] equivalent to £5,581,350 in 2020.[19]
The Colston Society, which had operated for 275 years commemorating Colston, latterly as a charity, decided to disband in 2020.”
I take it that those involved in destroying the statue out of morals wont be using any of the hospitals, schools and homes initiated by Colston. By all accounts they won’t be smoking either because he imported tobacco too. If they’re so driven by what’s right it would be hypocritical of them to do so. I’m sure they’re all aware of all this though. I know i wasn’t. Sometimes it’s good to read up I guess. Almost sounds a bit like where we’re having the next world cup. I wonder if any of our players will be pulling out of that on moral grounds.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 6, 2022 7:40:59 GMT
Tearing down statues is akin to burning books
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 6, 2022 7:48:37 GMT
That’s exactly Grimes’ point though isn’t it He literally says he believes he *doesn’t* have the right to vandalise the Marx monument in that video. It’s an obvious point. The court has established a precedent that public vandalism is fine, provided your motives are popular enough. I wonder if any opportunists will fancy renewed attacks on Churchill, Cromwell, Rhodes (although he is a bit too high to easily access) and anyone else that provokes displeasure. Btw, I expect the Insulate Britain crew will have noted this decision with interest. They used the same “dangerous precedent” argument after the 1996 case of 4 women who were found not guilty after admitting that they caused millions of pounds worth of damage to an RAF aircraft on the grounds that it was used to kill citizens in East Timor. The floodgates never opened then either……..
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