|
Post by Gods on Dec 13, 2021 14:23:27 GMT
Bollocks. If BLM were football supporters it would have been carnage. The reason there was so much trouble was that the police were directed by that idiot Dick to stand down in the face of filthy abuse. Remember the baton wielding Police were beaten back by Hungarian fans with fists and open palms. There has been a small resurgence of football violence and I think police inaction that we see on television must be encouraging this as yobs just see the Police running away. The modern police man, or very often woman, tends to be an evidence gatherer with a camera, not really physically equipped for arm to arm combat with the Budapest weight lifting club fuelled by alcohol and neat testosterone!
|
|
|
Post by Dutchpeter on Dec 13, 2021 14:40:52 GMT
Remember the baton wielding Police were beaten back by Hungarian fans with fists and open palms. There has been a small resurgence of football violence and I think police inaction that we see on television must be encouraging this as yobs just see the Police running away. The modern police man, or very often woman, tends to be an evidence gatherer with a camera, not really physically equipped for arm to arm combat with the Budapest weight lifting club fuelled by alcohol and neat testosterone! I was baton trained in the Royal Navy and on guard duty you felt you could take anyone out unless they had a gun. There were numerous opportunities to strike primary target areas. It was a failure of leadership and teamwork (Iām sure their training was top notch), you could see the fear on their faces. The police also have longer offensive batons compared to the RNās shorter defensive batons, so again no excuses there. As regards evidence gathering Iām certain quelling the unrest should be at the top of their agenda, not filming it. I donāt believe Iāve heard about any arrests in regards to this.
|
|
|
Post by callas12 on Dec 13, 2021 14:46:49 GMT
I'd heard the police were there on cancelled rest days on Saturday. So far from earning some bonus wedge, they'd of been rearranging their weekend š¤£š¤£! Really didn't get the large presence though, there seemed to be more there V Boro than there was against Cardiff! All very bizarre.
Noticed the press had made a few points about Middlesbrough bringing a good following with them, 1400!! Which is probably the average away attendance in our away end this season so commendable in Christmas month but certainly nothing special or amazing!
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 14, 2021 6:19:25 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 14, 2021 8:40:31 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley?
|
|
|
Post by Veritas on Dec 14, 2021 9:10:16 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? I agree with everything you say until "nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing". Are you serious? There are numerous verified accounts, including some involving Stoke fans, of the Police acting in an unjustified or even illegal manner.
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 14, 2021 9:28:43 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? I agree with everything you say until "nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing". Are you serious? There are numerous verified accounts, including some involving Stoke fans, of the Police acting in an unjustified or even illegal manner. Ok perhaps that was too general. Clearly the police do go over the top especially with football fans. But what I was trying to convey was that people donāt get pepper sprayed if the spray is still in their pockets. Something must have occurred or was about to occur for them to get the spray out in the first place. The problem with pepper spray is itās a bit random and indiscriminate and there is often collateral damage. I know Iāve had a face full which was intended for a weapon playing up near me.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Dec 14, 2021 9:54:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Gods on Dec 14, 2021 11:38:29 GMT
It may not be the same emergency worker, 2 separate incidents perhaps, who knows.
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 14, 2021 12:06:58 GMT
It may not be the same emergency worker, 2 separate incidents perhaps, who knows. Yes I read it as two separate incidents. But then again its the Sentinul so it could be any old bollocks.
|
|
|
Post by hyaduck on Dec 14, 2021 12:26:10 GMT
Heard they had it large with the BMC (Bob Martin Crew) Not heard of them, who are they?
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 14, 2021 12:34:49 GMT
Heard they had it large with the BMC (Bob Martin Crew) Not heard of them, who are they? Woof.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Dec 14, 2021 14:15:45 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? I don't think it helps to dismiss fellow football fans from a different club as "whiny tossers" when you don't know what happened. The FSA has received some complaints from Boro fans about what happened, and we are giving them appropriate advice on how to lodge a complaint and the Staffordshire police's protocol for the allowable use of pepper spray. I have spoken to one fan who was pepper sprayed along with his son, and have read the protocol. I am conscious that we are on a public forum, and I have only heard one side of the story, so suffice to say at this stage that I will be interested to learn the police version of events, and how they consider, if they do, that the use of pepper spray was in accordance with the protocol. Without reaching any conclusions at this stage on Saturday's events I do not share the assumption of your penultimate sentence, and I suspect you might not make that assumption if you spoke to the fan who I spoke to and his son.
|
|
|
Post by Gifton on Dec 14, 2021 14:35:32 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? I have to disagree, some of the most ruthless thugs you could wish to avoid at the football are dressed in uniform. As for getting pepper sprayed for no reason, all it takes is one random knuckle-dragger in your vicinity to create that reason. Even the well intended coppers can not guarantee they won't accidentally get the spray in an innocent by-standers eyes, shirley?
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 14, 2021 15:27:04 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? I have to disagree, some of the most ruthless thugs you could wish to avoid at the football are dressed in uniform. As for getting pepper sprayed for no reason, all it takes is one random knuckle-dragger in your vicinity to create that reason. Even the well intended coppers can not guarantee they won't accidentally get the spray in an innocent by-standers eyes, shirley? See my second comment.
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 14, 2021 15:40:57 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? I don't think it helps to dismiss fellow football fans from a different club as "whiny tossers" when you don't know what happened. The FSA has received some complaints from Boro fans about what happened, and we are giving them appropriate advice on how to lodge a complaint and the Staffordshire police's protocol for the allowable use of pepper spray. I have spoken to one fan who was pepper sprayed along with his son, and have read the protocol. I am conscious that we are on a public forum, and I have only heard one side of the story, so suffice to say at this stage that I will be interested to learn the police version of events, and how they consider, if they do, that the use of pepper spray was in accordance with the protocol. Without reaching any conclusions at this stage on Saturday's events I do not share the assumption of your penultimate sentence, and I suspect you might not make that assumption if you spoke to the fan who I spoke to and his son. Good job this is a message board for opinions then and not a court of law else I'd probably be in contempt. The point I was trying to make, perhaps a little insensitively, was that if innocent people have been caught in the crossfire (as I was once) then they should be pointing the finger at the cause within their own ranks as well as or instead of the police. If the police were out of order then I expect you'll ensure they are held to account. Edit: I expect there'll be loads of bodyworn video which will show what did actually happen. PS just slightly off topic do we have CCTV in the concourses? And if not why not?
|
|
|
Post by a on Dec 14, 2021 17:33:29 GMT
Remember the baton wielding Police were beaten back by Hungarian fans with fists and open palms. There has been a small resurgence of football violence and I think police inaction that we see on television must be encouraging this as yobs just see the Police running away. The modern police man, or very often woman, tends to be an evidence gatherer with a camera, not really physically equipped for arm to arm combat with the Budapest weight lifting club fuelled by alcohol and neat testosterone! To be fair, police training only shows some of the techniques with/without baton, it isnāt going to make a 5ā4ā policewoman, or policeman any more proficient or capable. I think for that reason there should be the means of escalation at their disposal to stop and deter that kind of organised violence.
|
|
|
Post by dexta on Dec 14, 2021 18:20:51 GMT
The modern police man, or very often woman, tends to be an evidence gatherer with a camera, not really physically equipped for arm to arm combat with the Budapest weight lifting club fuelled by alcohol and neat testosterone! To be fair, police training only shows some of the techniques with/without baton, it isnāt going to make a 5ā4ā policewoman, or policeman any more proficient or capable. I think for that reason there should be the means of escalation at their disposal to stop and deter that kind of organised violence. what organised violence are you referring to
|
|
|
Post by StokieSC on Dec 14, 2021 22:02:52 GMT
A bar lady in the white star said that their had been fighting since 11am. Never saw anything he myself & was drinking in stoke before the game. I would say over policed myself. I was in the White Star, no fighting at all. I was in Stoke from 11 onwards. Plenty of old bill but no trouble.
|
|
|
Post by a on Dec 15, 2021 11:06:16 GMT
To be fair, police training only shows some of the techniques with/without baton, it isnāt going to make a 5ā4ā policewoman, or policeman any more proficient or capable. I think for that reason there should be the means of escalation at their disposal to stop and deter that kind of organised violence. what organised violence are you referring to I mean generally when footie fans go on a rampage, we saw it in France and Iāve seen it on occasion myself, groups deciding to meet up to have a scrap. Hooliganism Edit: Iāll add to that, protesters who decide to no longer be peaceful.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Dec 15, 2021 12:22:32 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? What about these whiny tossers Cost plod Ā£200K. thefsa.org.uk/news/policing-of-stoke-fans-raises-serious-concerns/
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Dec 15, 2021 14:01:23 GMT
I would suggest the whiny tossers direct their complaints closer to home. There was obviously intelligence from Middlesbrough that something was planned as there was a much bigger police presence than usual. The fact that nothing serious did kick off kind of justifies their tactics. And Iām sorry as bad as the Old Bill can be nobody gets pepper sprayed for nothing. The fact that theyād got the spray out in the first place means something must have been kicking off Shirley? What about these whiny tossers Cost plod Ā£200K. thefsa.org.uk/news/policing-of-stoke-fans-raises-serious-concerns/Indeed, and it led to a re-writing of the guidance on Section 27 ( as it then was). It is only fair to add that the Lyndon's legal costs were underwritten by Stoke City thanks to Tony Scholes, in case we lost the case and had costs awarded against us, but that didn't happen and Lyndon won. Without that underwriting, we couldn't have risked taking it to court.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Dec 15, 2021 14:15:40 GMT
I don't think it helps to dismiss fellow football fans from a different club as "whiny tossers" when you don't know what happened. The FSA has received some complaints from Boro fans about what happened, and we are giving them appropriate advice on how to lodge a complaint and the Staffordshire police's protocol for the allowable use of pepper spray. I have spoken to one fan who was pepper sprayed along with his son, and have read the protocol. I am conscious that we are on a public forum, and I have only heard one side of the story, so suffice to say at this stage that I will be interested to learn the police version of events, and how they consider, if they do, that the use of pepper spray was in accordance with the protocol. Without reaching any conclusions at this stage on Saturday's events I do not share the assumption of your penultimate sentence, and I suspect you might not make that assumption if you spoke to the fan who I spoke to and his son. Good job this is a message board for opinions then and not a court of law else I'd probably be in contempt. The point I was trying to make, perhaps a little insensitively, was that if innocent people have been caught in the crossfire (as I was once) then they should be pointing the finger at the cause within their own ranks as well as or instead of the police. If the police were out of order then I expect you'll ensure they are held to account. Edit: I expect there'll be loads of bodyworn video which will show what did actually happen. PS just slightly off topic do we have CCTV in the concourses? And if not why not? Of course it's only 3 years since stokies were PAVA sprayed at Preston which rightly caused a lot of concern on here and elsewhere. I hope that in this case Staffs police will follow the very good practice which Lancs police showed on that occasion by having an open and honest de-brief to which, unusually but commendably, our FSA caseworker Amanda was invited. Her account is here thefsa.org.uk/news/deepdale-incident-important-lessons-should-be-learned/Amanda is also involved in the follow-up to last Saturday's incident, as are Stoke City. I hope Staffs police hold such a meeting, because it would be a very helpful and constructive response to the concerns.
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 15, 2021 15:23:39 GMT
Good job this is a message board for opinions then and not a court of law else I'd probably be in contempt. The point I was trying to make, perhaps a little insensitively, was that if innocent people have been caught in the crossfire (as I was once) then they should be pointing the finger at the cause within their own ranks as well as or instead of the police. If the police were out of order then I expect you'll ensure they are held to account. Edit: I expect there'll be loads of bodyworn video which will show what did actually happen. PS just slightly off topic do we have CCTV in the concourses? And if not why not? Of course it's only 3 years since stokies were PAVA sprayed at Preston which rightly caused a lot of concern on here and elsewhere. I hope that in this case Staffs police will follow the very good practice which Lancs police showed on that occasion by having an open and honest de-brief to which, unusually but commendably, our FSA caseworker Amanda was invited. Her account is here thefsa.org.uk/news/deepdale-incident-important-lessons-should-be-learned/Amanda is also involved in the follow-up to last Saturday's incident, as are Stoke City. I hope Staffs police hold such a meeting, because it would be a very helpful and constructive response to the concerns. Fair enough I accept my āwhiney tossersā comment was rash and inappropriate and as such I apologise. But having read that report, which isnāt in itself critical of Lancashire Policeās use of PAVA, the two concluding paragraphs say- ā Finally, I canāt conclude this article without making reference to the behaviour of a small number of fans. Those who follow me on twitter will know that from time to time Iāll tweet about the increased anti-social behaviour that weāre seeing on concourses up and down the country and the consequences of that. Sooner or later it was inevitable it was all going to end in tears in some way or another. Given how reflective Lancs Police have been over this incident I donāt think itās unreasonable to ask that some fans too have a think about how they behave and how very real the outcomes of that behaviour can beā. Take away my inappropriate description that basically was the point of my post.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Dec 15, 2021 16:44:50 GMT
Of course it's only 3 years since stokies were PAVA sprayed at Preston which rightly caused a lot of concern on here and elsewhere. I hope that in this case Staffs police will follow the very good practice which Lancs police showed on that occasion by having an open and honest de-brief to which, unusually but commendably, our FSA caseworker Amanda was invited. Her account is here thefsa.org.uk/news/deepdale-incident-important-lessons-should-be-learned/Amanda is also involved in the follow-up to last Saturday's incident, as are Stoke City. I hope Staffs police hold such a meeting, because it would be a very helpful and constructive response to the concerns. Fair enough I accept my āwhiney tossersā comment was rash and inappropriate and as such I apologise. But having read that report, which isnāt in itself critical of Lancashire Policeās use of PAVA, the two concluding paragraphs say- ā Finally, I canāt conclude this article without making reference to the behaviour of a small number of fans. Those who follow me on twitter will know that from time to time Iāll tweet about the increased anti-social behaviour that weāre seeing on concourses up and down the country and the consequences of that. Sooner or later it was inevitable it was all going to end in tears in some way or another. Given how reflective Lancs Police have been over this incident I donāt think itās unreasonable to ask that some fans too have a think about how they behave and how very real the outcomes of that behaviour can beā. Take away my inappropriate description that basically was the point of my post. That piece was 3 years ago, but I think there is still concern nationally about increasing anti-social behaviour on concourses in particular. I can't say I've noticed it particularly at our away games but then again I tend to avoid the concourses as much as possible - I just go to and from the loo and back to my seat. I know that concern was expressed on here and elsewhere for example about behaviour on the concourse at Sheff United. But the pepper spray incident on Saturday wasn't on the concourse. It was outside in the compound area, and involved an officer in a police van winding down the window and discharging the spray. The question for Staffs police is whether that act was necessary and proportionate and in accordance with the protocol for the use of pepper spray, given the effect it had on all fans nearby, including children. As I said above, I have heard direct evidence from one of those fans who got a direct hit, but not from the police. Others fans have also contacted the FSA. That is what the investigation should look at.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2021 16:58:15 GMT
Remember the baton wielding Police were beaten back by Hungarian fans with fists and open palms. There has been a small resurgence of football violence and I think police inaction that we see on television must be encouraging this as yobs just see the Police running away. The modern police man, or very often woman, tends to be an evidence gatherer with a camera, not really physically equipped for arm to arm combat with the Budapest weight lifting club fuelled by alcohol and neat testosterone! Gods, are you saying you want hunkier policemen?
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Gravy on Dec 15, 2021 17:03:23 GMT
Fair enough I accept my āwhiney tossersā comment was rash and inappropriate and as such I apologise. But having read that report, which isnāt in itself critical of Lancashire Policeās use of PAVA, the two concluding paragraphs say- ā Finally, I canāt conclude this article without making reference to the behaviour of a small number of fans. Those who follow me on twitter will know that from time to time Iāll tweet about the increased anti-social behaviour that weāre seeing on concourses up and down the country and the consequences of that. Sooner or later it was inevitable it was all going to end in tears in some way or another. Given how reflective Lancs Police have been over this incident I donāt think itās unreasonable to ask that some fans too have a think about how they behave and how very real the outcomes of that behaviour can beā. Take away my inappropriate description that basically was the point of my post. That piece was 3 years ago, but I think there is still concern nationally about increasing anti-social behaviour on concourses in particular. I can't say I've noticed it particularly at our away games but then again I tend to avoid the concourses as much as possible - I just go to and from the loo and back to my seat. I know that concern was expressed on here and elsewhere for example about behaviour on the concourse at Sheff United. But the pepper spray incident on Saturday wasn't on the concourse. It was outside in the compound area, and involved an officer in a police van winding down the window and discharging the spray. The question for Staffs police is whether that act was necessary and proportionate and in accordance with the protocol for the use of pepper spray, given the effect it had on all fans nearby, including children. As I said above, I have heard direct evidence from one of those fans who got a direct hit, but not from the police. Others fans have also contacted the FSA. That is what the investigation should look at. Once again thatās fair enough. The article didnāt make it clear where it had taken place. With the chap saying heād gone forward to ask why they were being kept in I assumed it meant in as in in the concourse. If those are the true circumstances then that doesnāt sound appropriate use of force. Letās hope the police are forthcoming. They have body worn cameras and evidence gatherers which would both have been deployed so you would hope it would have been picked up. I canāt believe SCFC donāt have CCTV both inside and outside the ground.
|
|