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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 28, 2021 18:23:53 GMT
The idea that Cousins makes us more competitive against that Fulham side is laughable. Didn't you get the memo? Cousins is the best DM in the country, whereas Joe Allen is the antichrist. I know before he was just a League One standard midfield who couldn't pass a football, but during that period last year when he was on our subs bench and certain posters needed another stick to beat MON with, he became the new Claude Makelele overnight. Amazing. There were too many sticks last season to need another, Cousins came in and played well, we need someone similar. Not every game but someone that can come in and be disciplined and keep it simple, and get it to those that can create would be useful.
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 28, 2021 18:24:43 GMT
Despite the consensus seemingly being that we we need a DM or don't have a DM, I'm not even sure everyone's on the same page as to what a defensive midfielder should be. I thought that Fulham midfield today shared the burden of defensive and attacking duties really well, and illustrate the point that a single player sitting deeper is negated by coming up against a quality midfield where 3 or 4 players are an effective unit. If you'd dropped a Cousins-type (as an example) into our midfield today I think they would have played round him, no matter how disciplined he was positionally. Yeah -I think he wants the player at the base of the 3 to be a passer, rather than a destroyer (you can argue about what Allen actually is!) Garner seems to be that type too .And that's pretty much what Mikel was If we'd wanted a different type, we could have got one, but there's been no movement in that direction at all, has there? So we can only assume he isn't interested www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-joe-allen-wales-58388“We’ve played Joe sometimes higher up as an 8 and we’ve played him in a two with a 10 in front but I think he’s probably more suited to playing a little bit deeper. I think he prefers that at this stage of his career as well. "We’ve played him predominantly at the base of a midfield three. We have the ability to play as a two as well and we could play him and Sam or him and Romaine with Mario or Nick as a 10, Jordan Thompson is in the equation as well to play in that system. “I think he’s enjoying playing at the minute. He’s come back after the Euros, where I thought he played well, and that role he plays for Wales he’s continued for us and he looks very comfortable in it.” I can see the sense in that if we're playing out from the back and trying to turn ourselves into a possession team. Having someone in there who can win break up play is all well and good, but if your own side can't trust them with the ball, they'll create as many problems as they solve. Allen's done a decent enough job there so far. I'm more concerned about getting the right blend in-front of him. On paper, a creator and someone a bit more box-to-box would be the best solution. Clucas would probably constitute the latter, but he was so bad today I'm not sure he should keep his place.
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 28, 2021 18:25:01 GMT
This. I think we made the right call. We needed a cutting edge and ball-playing defenders to make the system work. England got to a euros final, and took it to penalties, with a lightweight midfield. Clearly we prioritised the right things but I just hope midfield is up there on our next shopping list. Just means we'll have some sucky games like this. Amazing isnt it football. I thought both Rice and Phillips were fucking brilliant all tournament and anything but lightweight. It's all relative though, right? I thought they performed well but they weren't the quality of, say, Kanté and Pogba. Which is the sort of pairing I'd think of for real international champions. For me the lack of midfield creativity/spark/dominance was one of England's shortcomings. Maybe "lightweight" was a bad word for that.
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Post by bgreen13 on Aug 28, 2021 18:26:42 GMT
Lost one have we?
😂😂😂
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 28, 2021 18:27:44 GMT
I think the thinking this season is that we don't need one. And maybe, hopefully, against most teams we won't. But by god we'll get shown up against really decent teams, the space there is embarrassing. I agree but I’m not convinced the midfield has worked this season bar the Swansea game really. Vrancic was excellent vs Reading but the rest weren’t. Allen is inconsistent and been crap in half of his starts so far. Sawyers will hopefully help with the balance in there as will Powell coming back in. But only as long as Powell isn’t playing as an 8. In this system though, no-one plays as a 10.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 28, 2021 19:03:45 GMT
It’s been an issue for a decade 😂
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Post by Olgrligm on Aug 28, 2021 19:04:45 GMT
When Powell plays, he does a lot of work without the ball, pressing and hassling. He's no defensive midfielder, but he's more of an all rounder than you think.
I don't want to describe Vrancic as a 'luxury', but he's an old fashioned immaculate playmaker in his 30s who will always leave the field with sparkly white shorts. He's worth accommodating, but he needs somebody really dynamic next to him.
I still don't get Clucas. If he doesn't score a goal, it's hard to see what he contributes. Unless we play Swansea, most games pass him by. Putting him alongside Vrancic is ok against cannon fodder like Forest, but we will look desperately exposed against teams like Fulham.
Weirdly, I think that means that we've most missed Powell for his defensive contribution, where he will affect the game more than Clucas or Vrancic. I'm not sure that Sawyers is the physically imposing type, but I'll reserve judgement.
It might all be wishful thinking. I think the manager is happy with his pool of Clucas, Vrancic, Powell and Sawyers for the two number 8 positions and Allen and Thompson as the defensive midfielders.
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Post by theonlooker on Aug 28, 2021 19:08:43 GMT
I don't think we missed Cousins. We missed a better version of him. I actually think, given the players we've brought in over the summer, that he would have looked like a fish out of water - the Danny Batth or the James Chester of midfield. We absolutely miss his engine and his ability to break up the play, but not his ability on the ball.
The type of player we need was actually on the Fulham bench today, coming back from injury - Harrison Reed. Can stick his foot in, can get about the pitch, can be disciplined and can play a bit.
Maybe we can find one over the next few days, months or years...
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Aug 28, 2021 19:12:59 GMT
Amazing isnt it football. I thought both Rice and Phillips were fucking brilliant all tournament and anything but lightweight. It's all relative though, right? I thought they performed well but they weren't the quality of, say, Kanté and Pogba. Which is the sort of pairing I'd think of for real international champions. For me the lack of midfield creativity/spark/dominance was one of England's shortcomings. Maybe "lightweight" was a bad word for that. Yeah Declan Rice could easily play as a centre back he’s certainly not a lightweight. That type of player is missing from our squad but you can’t solve every problem all at once. It’s been a good window and we have a much more competitive team & squad. We’re muchimproved enough of the post mortems.
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Post by themistocles on Aug 28, 2021 19:16:52 GMT
Baker still available Besic still available Preston are pushing hard for Mcann. Trybull was available Molumby was available
Plenty of CDM's have been available this window we're just not interested
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2021 20:50:38 GMT
Baker still available Besic still available Preston are pushing hard for Mcann. Trybull was available Molumby was available Plenty of CDM's have been available this window we're just not interested Do any of these players win us that game today? I dont think they do.
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Post by damagedswan on Aug 28, 2021 21:12:21 GMT
Baker still available Besic still available Preston are pushing hard for Mcann. Trybull was available Molumby was available Plenty of CDM's have been available this window we're just not interested Do any of these players win us that game today? I dont think they do. May not have won with a DM liek that, but we might have been a bit more competitive, since we were utterly rolled over in midfield today. And if we're more competitive against Fulham - who look very very very good - chances are we'd be stronger against the playoff contenders we're hoping to see ourselves amongst by the end of the season.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Aug 28, 2021 21:33:41 GMT
Our biggest problem in midfield today was the anonymous performance of Clucas. They were all anonymous. 122, 188 posts. “All” …….Bollocks
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Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 28, 2021 21:38:40 GMT
I don’t even think it’s about having a DM when you have 3 CBs it’s about having CMs who are good on the ball and good technical players that can keep posession. I’m not sure you can afford to have both Allen and Clucas in the same as 11 for that reason especially against the better teams.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 28, 2021 21:40:50 GMT
I don’t even think it’s about having a DM when you have 3 CBs it’s about having CMs who are good on the ball and good technical players that can keep posession. I’m not sure you can afford to have both Allen and Clucas in the same as 11 for that reason especially against the better teams. Allen’s career pre Liverpool was about keeping the ball. Clucas too is fine keeping the ball.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Aug 28, 2021 21:44:26 GMT
I don’t even think it’s about having a DM when you have 3 CBs it’s about having CMs who are good on the ball and good technical players that can keep posession. I’m not sure you can afford to have both Allen and Clucas in the same as 11 for that reason especially against the better teams. But the three CBS are mostly about playing out from the back aren’t they? None of them are really tacklers bar Ostigard. You need some physicality in midfield, you need someone to be the base and platform for the other player to build attacks on and to plug the gaps when the ball-playing CBs or wing backs step up. Allen did that well enough against Swansea and Forest tbf.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 28, 2021 21:45:03 GMT
I don't think we missed Cousins. We missed a better version of him. I actually think, given the players we've brought in over the summer, that he would have looked like a fish out of water - the Danny Batth or the James Chester of midfield. We absolutely miss his engine and his ability to break up the play, but not his ability on the ball.
The type of player we need was actually on the Fulham bench today, coming back from injury - Harrison Reed. Can stick his foot in, can get about the pitch, can be disciplined and can play a bit. Maybe we can find one over the next few days, months or years...
Should have been #1 target this time around and our complete lack of seemingly wanting one is very odd. And this isn’t just about today. Allen has had 1 good game. Vrancic the same Clucas the same One of the better CM displays this season has been Thompson against Swansea. The balance so far hasn’t been there imo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2021 22:13:29 GMT
I don't think we missed Cousins. We missed a better version of him. I actually think, given the players we've brought in over the summer, that he would have looked like a fish out of water - the Danny Batth or the James Chester of midfield. We absolutely miss his engine and his ability to break up the play, but not his ability on the ball.
The type of player we need was actually on the Fulham bench today, coming back from injury - Harrison Reed. Can stick his foot in, can get about the pitch, can be disciplined and can play a bit. Maybe we can find one over the next few days, months or years...
Should have been #1 target this time around and our complete lack of seemingly wanting one is very odd. And this isn’t just about today. Allen has had 1 good game. Vrancic the same Clucas the same One of the better CM displays this season has been Thompson against Swansea. The balance so far hasn’t been there imo. Honestly, the day we sign this almost mythical midfield destroyer type I expect us to never lose a game of football again.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 28, 2021 22:38:33 GMT
Allen has been fine as the DM against lesser teams but that game showed his limitations and level in that role. Clucas is the issue for me - he’s a fair weather player - MoN needs to work out what games Clucas can play in, he goes missing, doesn’t offer himself as an option, passes sideways or back when we attack, doesn’t harass/press and doesn’t make a single challenge around the sentur surtle. Hopefully once Sawyers is up to speed it’ll be him, Allen and Powell with Vrancic off the bench. Sawyers looked calm picking up the loose ball won by our defence and turning into an attack. He’s never gonna drop Joe but I would like see Sawyers,Powell and Vrancic at some point. Once Sawyers is fit and Powell returns Clucas will be a bit part player. Our best midfield trio will end up as Allen, Sawyers and Powell I'm sure.
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Post by bgreen13 on Aug 28, 2021 23:29:27 GMT
It’s been an issue for a decade 😂 I bet you've been seething with the positivity you wretch.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 28, 2021 23:43:09 GMT
It’s been an issue for a decade 😂 I bet you've been seething with the positivity you wretch. I’ve been joining in if you would have cared to check.
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Post by a on Aug 28, 2021 23:50:34 GMT
Who ended up signing him then if he’s such a talent? He’s not really a talent but he is better than anyone else at the club. So…… nobody?
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 28, 2021 23:56:39 GMT
Normally a fan of you, Bayern, but that's a shit thread title. Not because I disagree with the the sentiment behind it, it's just a shit title.
World keeps turning.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 29, 2021 0:10:23 GMT
Normally a fan of you, Bayern, but that's a shit thread title. Not because I disagree with the the sentiment behind it, it's just a shit title. World keeps turning. Not normally a fan of yours boother but that’s an excellent post
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2021 0:45:28 GMT
Jordan Cousins was fucking shit.
Complete nothing player.
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Post by potterpaul on Aug 29, 2021 1:00:45 GMT
Jordan Cousins was fucking shit. Complete nothing player. Which makes your drulling over Allen even more perplexing 🤣
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2021 1:01:20 GMT
Allen has been fine as the DM against lesser teams but that game showed his limitations and level in that role. Clucas is the issue for me - he’s a fair weather player - MoN needs to work out what games Clucas can play in, he goes missing, doesn’t offer himself as an option, passes sideways or back when we attack, doesn’t harass/press and doesn’t make a single challenge around the sentur surtle. Hopefully once Sawyers is up to speed it’ll be him, Allen and Powell with Vrancic off the bench. Sawyers looked calm picking up the loose ball won by our defence and turning into an attack. He’s never gonna drop Joe but I would like see Sawyers,Powell and Vrancic at some point. Once Sawyers is fit and Powell returns Clucas will be a bit part player. Our best midfield trio will end up as Allen, Sawyers and Powell I'm sure. Got to hope so! I think Powell is actually a better worker than talent in many games. He often stands out for his work ethic and aerial abilities more than fancy flicks etc. The extra work from him (versus Vrancic) will compensate for the reduction from Sawyers. Sawyers is a player that could really open teams up for us. Tymon is starting to get it together and Doughty has pace to burn. Those two (and Brown) just need someone to play balls into their stride. Really, we need to be able to control games. Fulham never needed a defensive midfielder today, they barely had to defend. They controlled the flow of the game and had a high press that disrupted us from the first whistle. A midfield containing Powell and Sawyers should be able to control most teams in this league.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2021 1:13:28 GMT
Jordan Cousins was fucking shit. Complete nothing player. Which makes your drulling over Allen even more perplexing 🤣 What does drulling mean?
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Post by potterpaul on Aug 29, 2021 2:14:12 GMT
Which makes your drulling over Allen even more perplexing 🤣 What does drulling mean? My apologies Drooling 🤤
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Post by pottersrule on Aug 29, 2021 5:49:53 GMT
I don’t even think it’s about having a DM when you have 3 CBs it’s about having CMs who are good on the ball and good technical players that can keep posession. I’m not sure you can afford to have both Allen and Clucas in the same as 11 for that reason especially against the better teams. Allen’s career pre Liverpool was about keeping the ball. Clucas too is fine keeping the ball. Clucas was absolutely abysmal yesterday,it was akin to playing with ten men.There were too many players off the pace against Fulham and we were deservedly well beaten. This DM thread is pure folly.
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