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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 19, 2020 8:04:53 GMT
It'd be very interesting to see if we stick with this if something happens with Tommy Smith. Big ask to expect him to play every minute of a packed season if the only alternative is Brown.
Or could we yet see a move for one of the other RWB back-up options we've been linked with like Freeman or Simpson?
I think the 25-man squad has to be named by tomorrow - so as unlikely as it seems, will we see the name of M.Bauer sneak on there?
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 19, 2020 8:16:29 GMT
Isn’t 3-5-2 the same as 5-3-2, with the wing backs dropping back when defending? In fact I thought that was the whole point. That is the theory. In practice though it doesn’t work because the wide men cannot cope with the demands meaning, in the case of 352 an opposing side playing 442 can counter the attacking threat with the standard full backs and dominate midfield with 4 against 3. In the case of 532, which is how this formation usually ends up because there are more players that can do the defensive part of this role than the attacking part and managers opt for safety first, you end up with an incredibly negative formation that finds it difficult to break out of defence. Why do wide men struggle in this formation - well, you need to be a winger and a full back. You’ve got to tackle, dribble and cross. And be incredibly fit. A few players might be able to do this. A very few. Yeah - they do seem to be the key personnel in it, and yet we don't seem to have prioritised getting great fits for it. Understandable to a degree with MON having to sort so much on a real budget, and with Tymon and (to a slightly lesser degree) Smith being okay fits - but McClean/Brown/Fox seemingly less so. Mind you, it seems to have been thought through a bit better than when Hughes presumably banged his head and decided to give it a punt with Diouf and Pieters (backed up by an 18-year-old Tymon) www.stokecityfc.com/news/wing-back-role-surprising-dioufGreat memories!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 19, 2020 8:54:24 GMT
It'd be very interesting to see if we stick with this if something happens with Tommy Smith. Big ask to expect him to play every minute of a packed season if the only alternative is Brown. Or could we yet see a move for one of the other RWB back-up options we've been linked with like Freeman or Simpson? I think the 25-man squad has to be named by tomorrow - so as unlikely as it seems, will we see the name of M.Bauer sneak on there? I thought Smith was about our worst player on Saturday. They got in down his side all too often and he did nothing going forward. With the schedule how it is, it's absolutely bonkers to expect him to play week in, week out too especially with the nature of the role. It'll be interesting to see if he does give Brown another go there.
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Post by Stoke711 on Oct 19, 2020 9:03:54 GMT
Roberto Martinez predicted this a few years ago before he left Wigan. He said he thought that teams were slowly going to shift to playing 3 at the back with one striker off another, essentially making it a 3-6-1. There was a manager at Wolves many years ago, Colin Lee, that did it in an away match at Walsall on a Friday night (I think). Don't know why I've remembered it... I remember Spain doing 4-6-0 few years ago maybe teams thought we'll modify it to the English game.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 9:06:04 GMT
There's probably much traditionalist thinking in drawing up the ideal wingback. He must be either a fullback or a winger in order to be both, but if you look at the currently most successful club side, Bayern, I'm not really sure which system they employ, they seem to be very flexible, but their two fullbacks are both midfielders originally which just stresses that same flexibility. On the right they alternate between Goretzka and Kimmich, neither of whom were trained to be wingbacks but they have eveolved into doing their parts exceptionally well. Exceptional also applies to Davies on the left, although you can spot that he's not really a defender, and so he needs Alaba to back him up.
If we were to "translate" their approach we should perhaps look more to some of our midfielders to perform in the role. Now that he's largely ineffectual in central midfield, perhaps the time has come to play Clucas there on the left and play Tymon more centrally as he did very well there in pre season and cup games. Not really sure who we should play on the right, TOB might be the one, which would seem to tie in with the player playing on the wide right vs Brum, but until then he'd been playing centrally, but I really don't think he's strong enough defensively, at least not yet. A wild guess would be Allen, though he's too lacking in positional discipline to slot straight in- It would require a huge change in his mindset to do it. But he might have to, because with the tactical frame that we're currently mostly sticking to, he might find that there's no place for him in central midfield when he comes back.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 9:13:31 GMT
Hopefully we are working hard in training on getting Brown upto speed as wingback. He has the speed and athleticism to make it work. Has he got the defensive nouse? He will certainly make it a more attacking formation than with Smith. Perhaps a home game against Barnsley is an ideal opportunity to try him.
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Post by noustie on Oct 19, 2020 10:16:07 GMT
It just seems one of those daft fashions that happen time to time like shit teams trying to get their defenders and keeper play out for the back resulting in more chances for the opposition rather than themselves.
Hopefully it gets worked out pretty quickly as its dull as fuck watching wing backs pegged back in a 5 and one of the strikers dropping back in midfield make up the numbers.
Scotland are playing it too despite having nobody who can play right wing back or the right side of a three and it negating Robertson's ability to overlap. We've gone 8 unbeaten but been hell of a lucky in a few of those plus now the surprise element is out of it would expect any semi-decent side expose the fairly glaring deficiencies.
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Post by markby on Oct 19, 2020 11:12:37 GMT
I think fear is one driving factor.... ....But O'Neill, also driven by fear, thinks they must have a minder, not realising or not willing to accept that oldies make mistakes too and sometimes more costly (Chester). When Michael was in charge of NI, he experimented a couple of times with 3 at the back. And although he didn't persevere, that was basically because he didn't really have the players to use it properly. (Nor did he have time on the training pitch to practice what was a new system for his team)
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 19, 2020 11:19:22 GMT
Isn’t 3-5-2 the same as 5-3-2, with the wing backs dropping back when defending? In fact I thought that was the whole point. That is the theory. In practice though it doesn’t work because the wide men cannot cope with the demands meaning, in the case of 352 an opposing side playing 442 can counter the attacking threat with the standard full backs and dominate midfield with 4 against 3. . I don’t think this is right at all. 442 isn’t really 4 in midfield, it’s 2. I’ve always thought the main reason 442 (and now to an extent 4231) has fallen by the wayside is that it asks too much of 2 CMs playing against the more packed 433 or 352s.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 13:57:35 GMT
Hopefully we are working hard in training on getting Brown upto speed as wingback. He has the speed and athleticism to make it work. Has he got the defensive nouse? No.
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Post by noustie on Oct 19, 2020 14:39:59 GMT
Roberto Martinez predicted this a few years ago before he left Wigan. He said he thought that teams were slowly going to shift to playing 3 at the back with one striker off another, essentially making it a 3-6-1. There was a manager at Wolves many years ago, Colin Lee, that did it in an away match at Walsall on a Friday night (I think). Don't know why I've remembered it... I remember Spain doing 4-6-0 few years ago maybe teams thought we'll modify it to the English game. Scotland played it away to the Czech Republic when Craig Levein hailed it as the future. Basically instead of lumping it aimlessly at a front man we instead lumped it aimlessly at a forward playing left wing so wasn't the tactical revolution envisaged.
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Post by a on Oct 19, 2020 14:49:49 GMT
It'd be very interesting to see if we stick with this if something happens with Tommy Smith. Big ask to expect him to play every minute of a packed season if the only alternative is Brown. Or could we yet see a move for one of the other RWB back-up options we've been linked with like Freeman or Simpson? I think the 25-man squad has to be named by tomorrow - so as unlikely as it seems, will we see the name of M.Bauer sneak on there? To be honest I’d like to see Bauer kept on as an option if we start playing 3 at the back, with better defensive midfielders.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 20, 2020 19:47:34 GMT
Clash of 5-3-2s got the watching red buttoners on the edge of their seats
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 19:50:35 GMT
Clash of 5-3-2s got the watching red buttoners on the edge of their seats Was just about to post on this thread. Just the 3 goals from 7 games so far tonight. I think the general consensus of fear of losing is right.
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Post by bgreen13 on Oct 20, 2020 19:51:21 GMT
Clash of 5-3-2s got the watching red buttoners on the edge of their seats But brizzles 532 against our 532 were excellent. Its a good system but like every other one you need your players on the front foot.
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Post by musik on Oct 21, 2020 10:41:18 GMT
Many decades ago the formation was: 2-5-3
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Post by reddipotter on Oct 21, 2020 10:53:00 GMT
The alternative these days is to have forwards who operate a high press. We don’t really have this sort of forward so we’re using wing backs. You could argue that we don’t have these either, but no one does because the position didn’t previously exist. Everyone is trying to create wingbacks from full backs or midfielders. Once more players get the hang of it, it will look less defensive, I think.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Oct 21, 2020 17:00:21 GMT
Many decades ago the formation was: 2-5-3 That was my formation for many of my managerial years on Championship Manager 00/01. It worked spectacularly well. My team conceded a lot and had some heavy defeats (particularly heartbreakingly in cup semi-finals), but in general scored more than the opposition. I think O'Neill should try it until we get to the League Cup and FA Cup semi-finals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 17:47:37 GMT
The alternative these days is to have forwards who operate a high press. We don’t really have this sort of forward so we’re using wing backs. You could argue that we don’t have these either, but no one does because the position didn’t previously exist. Everyone is trying to create wingbacks from full backs or midfielders. Once more players get the hang of it, it will look less defensive, I think. I think that's historically factually wrong. Firstly there have been attacking fullbacks for over 60 years, probably started by Brazil with the two fbs both named Santos and further developed by Holland and even England under Ramsay. We had two fine specimen in Marsh and Pejic. Not wingbacks but fullbacks with an attacking bent that you couldn't curb. For them being converted to wingbacks would have been second nature. Under Pulis we had a manager who disliked attacking fullbacks, although he allowed Wilko to haev a go, when he did play.But Pulis really preferred fullbacks to be defensively sound and like central defenders and indeed often played cds there. Hughes of course had a different approach but he struggled to find good fbs. Since he departed it's been two problem spots with the varying managers. You'd expect O'Neill to do differently, but he hasn't really brought in players for the wingback roles. Secondly, 352/532 is not a new system. I'm not sure when and where it originated but I suspect it was in Germany, because they played with a libero behind two cds. One team that was particularly successful with the system was the magnificent Denmark team of the 80s. They used two wingbacks that had great success as midfielders. On the left was Lerby, who'd been running midfield for Ajax and Bayern, but adapted to the role. On the right a succession of different players, Lauridsen, Sivebak, Rasmussen, all utility players, who also slotted into the role without problem. But England, as is so often the case, struggle to have adaptable players, and so it's difficult to envisage that they will just get the hang of it soon. It has to be part of their nature to begin with. We actually have/had two quasi defenders who are good going forward with the ball, Edwards and Tymon, both of them developed under Hughes. But none of the umpteenth managers we've had since have been able to address the fact that they are not really good defenders, and the current incumbent manager is no different, although O'Neill to his credit has done well to adapt Tymon to his system.
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