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Post by upthefud on Jan 11, 2020 9:16:52 GMT
Hard to know how to work this question without seeming ageist so apologies if you're offended
VAR is very clearly not working, its an absolute farce which works against the so called smaller teams 9 times out of 10. I don't think I'm exaggerating there either
My question is was it this embaressing when new in rugby, tennis and cricket or is it just football where its utterly inept?
What do we do about it?
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Post by neddy on Jan 11, 2020 9:20:20 GMT
Hard to know how to work this question without seeming ageist so apologies if you're offended VAR is very clearly not working, its an absolute farce which works against the so called smaller teams 9 times out of 10. I don't think I'm exaggerating there either My question is was it this embaressing when new in rugby, tennis and cricket or is it just football where its utterly inept? What do we do about it? I don’t think it was as most decisions in those sports seem so clear cut and not subject to much to interpretation.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 11, 2020 9:35:26 GMT
Unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle and we are going to have to live with it.
Football is gradually evolving into a sport that is totally orientated around TV like American football. The young generation may like it, but as a 40+ I just suffer it.
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Post by Rt Hon Reverend Luvpump on Jan 11, 2020 9:41:57 GMT
Remember saying when we were just relegated from the prem “if var was in place just think of the extra points we’d have had the big four would be in trouble” how wrong was I just another vehicle to help the big four! Just out of interest are we still giving penalties for shirt pulling in the box?
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Post by JoeinOz on Jan 11, 2020 9:42:12 GMT
I've said before, one reason they'll stick with is because they'll sell sponsorship with it. The var screens will have KFC sprawled over them. Same as they do in the NRL.
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Post by theincontinents on Jan 11, 2020 9:52:06 GMT
VAR in tennis is very clear cut in rugby less so though I reckon it works well in rugby due to an entirely different system of referring where the ref on the pitch is respectful of the official reviewers well away from the pressures applied by players and fans.
Idiot decisions made by football referees have been the bane of supporters of all smaller clubs since the start of the premier league with its “professional paid referees”. VAR is then used by the same idiot under pressure because they are pitch side. I really don’t think VAR is the problem, it is just the stupid way in which it is used by the FA, who have also completely ruined the once wonderful FA cup competition due to their complete focus on money ahead of improving competitiveness.
Luv & Piss Moaning old git of 62
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Post by robwahlmann on Jan 11, 2020 9:54:26 GMT
I still think VAR could be a good thing, but not like it's used now. For offsides there should be drawn a line and if you instantly can't see it's offside it should benefit the attacking team, as the old rule said, and the goal should stand. There should also be a time limit or number of passes after a player has been offside before you cancel it out again. There have been some goals disallowed this season where the play has gone on for too long to disallow the goal in my opinion. One example is the Chelsea - Liverpool game early in the season when Chelsea got a goal disallowed after a number of passes after the offside situation. I also think it should be used more to book players for play acting. The handball rule is still like a lottery and I'm not sure VAR should be used in these situations. Refs need to award penalties for other offences more often as well and then check on VAR if it actually was a foul committed. Will never be perfect, but can at least take away the most horrible decisions.
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Post by hooftastic on Jan 11, 2020 10:03:40 GMT
It's in its infancy and will evolve.
Think there needs to be an overhaul of the rules (like the daft handball one), and maybe not having fingernails as offside.
Maybe have a cricket style review system.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 11, 2020 10:16:22 GMT
Cricket rugby and tennis all have a stop start element in the play
Where as football tends to be more free flowing if allowed to be which makes the stops for var less palatable
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 11, 2020 10:36:53 GMT
It was introduced in cricket to improve decisions in two areas
1) marginal line decisions such as run outs, stumping and no balls
2) eliminate “significant” umpire errors such as missing the ball hitting the bat in an LBW decision or the ball missing the bat for a catch
In both of these areas it has been, despite some teething problems in technology like hotspot, a success. The thinking has evolved though to improve the process like in umpire’s call for low catches and lbw to allow for margin of error in technology.
Football is going through a similar learning curve. But it will improve. The end point will be better decisions - we all need to be patient and give it time.
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Post by Edward Tattsyrup on Jan 11, 2020 11:16:33 GMT
Hard to know how to work this question without seeming ageist so apologies if you're offended VAR is very clearly not working, its an absolute farce which works against the so called smaller teams 9 times out of 10. I don't think I'm exaggerating there either My question is was it this embaressing when new in rugby, tennis and cricket or is it just football where its utterly inept? What do we do about it? The difference with rugby is that any review is instigated by the on field ref. Maybe that's the way forward.
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Post by raythesailor on Jan 11, 2020 11:17:15 GMT
VAR is not the main problem. It is the ridiculous new changes to the “Laws of the Game”, and their interpretation.
Last nights W Ham disallowed goal is a perfect example. VAR was correct. The new rule is a joke.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 11, 2020 11:26:29 GMT
Remember saying when we were just relegated from the prem “if var was in place just think of the extra points we’d have had the big four would be in trouble” how wrong was I just another vehicle to help the big four! Just out of interest are we still giving penalties for shirt pulling in the box? Referring back to your first sentence, it depends on who is pulling who's shirt.
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Post by milky on Jan 11, 2020 11:36:13 GMT
Had me thinking how VAR would have viewed some of the ridiculous decisions that went against us during our time in the premiership.
In particular the joke, borderline corrupt decisions to disallow the Shawcross goal against Man City and Antony Taylor's very bent decision to chalk off the Bojan one v Arsenal.
I know we benefited at times ourselves but no where near the times we got shafted especially in the first 2 or 3 years.
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Post by rawli on Jan 11, 2020 11:37:49 GMT
Clear and obvious. If you even need to draw a line for offside it isn't. Advantage to the attacker. The number of frames per second makes the armpit offsides a guessing game anyway.
It should be there for off the ball incidents. So snidey fouls get punished.
It should be used for obvious diving wherever it is on the pitch and that should be a red card.
None of this will happen as football is corrupt due to the billions involved.
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sec62
Spectator
Posts: 35
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Post by sec62 on Jan 11, 2020 12:04:06 GMT
But it is so funny when it stops West Sham getting a late equaliser.
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Post by rawli on Jan 11, 2020 12:13:36 GMT
But it is so funny when it stops West Sham getting a late equaliser. We do have to factor that in.
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Post by pretzel on Jan 11, 2020 12:42:19 GMT
Hard to know how to work this question without seeming ageist so apologies if you're offended VAR is very clearly not working, its an absolute farce which works against the so called smaller teams 9 times out of 10. I don't think I'm exaggerating there either My question is was it this embaressing when new in rugby, tennis and cricket or is it just football where its utterly inept? What do we do about it? Rugby, Tennis and Cricket are all stop/start type sports anyway; traditionally footie isn't supposed to be. *Edit* oops sorry, just noticed I've repeated virtually word for word some other wise person
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nickhfc
Youth Player
Dave Kitson in ITV3 'Life'
Posts: 470
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Post by nickhfc on Jan 11, 2020 12:52:31 GMT
VAR is not the main problem. It is the ridiculous new changes to the “Laws of the Game”, and their interpretation. Last nights W Ham disallowed goal is a perfect example. VAR was correct. The new rule is a joke. If we'd been on the receiving end of West Ham's 'goal', we'd be furious. D Rice gained control of the ball with his hand: intentionally or not, it doesn't matter. VAR was correct and so is the handball rule. However, I do have issues with the marginal 'toenail' offsides - that aspect has to be sorted.
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Post by scfc75 on Jan 11, 2020 12:55:42 GMT
Personally I think it could be improved for offsides, to take the ‘fingernail’ decisions out of the equation. They use sensors for goal line decisions so why not offsides?
Every player has a sensor fitted front and back (maybe sewn into the band of their shorts) the centre point between the two of which represents the centre of the player. This is then used as the reference point when checking for offside. No more ‘well his arm was slightly extended’ nonsense.
Could that work? Doesn’t even need a human to check it, the computer gives the decision in seconds.
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Post by lordb on Jan 11, 2020 13:01:01 GMT
You can't score a goal with your arm so how can you be offside if it's just your arm that's off?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 13:03:17 GMT
Hard to know how to work this question without seeming ageist so apologies if you're offended VAR is very clearly not working, its an absolute farce which works against the so called smaller teams 9 times out of 10. I don't think I'm exaggerating there either My question is was it this embaressing when new in rugby, tennis and cricket or is it just football where its utterly inept? What do we do about it? First of all I don’t think it’s just the smaller teams who are being impacted, it’s just a very poor system. Re other sports, rugby is stop/start anyway, and the decisions are more of a technical nature, so it lends itself well to that sport. Where VAR can learn, in my opinion, is from Cricket. If it’s a close call, it’s Umpires Decision, and football should follow suit. If, to the naked eye, it’s not clear and obvious if it’s offside (either way) the on field decision should stand, I don’t really have a problem with the handball decisions, VAR is simply implementing the laws of the game. Whether the laws are right is a different question altogether.
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Post by ohbottom on Jan 11, 2020 13:16:42 GMT
You can't score a goal with your arm so how can you be offside if it's just your arm that's off? You can't, pretty sure the rule says something like "a part of the body with which you can legally play the ball".
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Post by iglugluk on Jan 11, 2020 13:23:05 GMT
I dont have a problem with the principle of VAR but it clearly needs refinement. Obviously that will take some time but those behind its organising principles need to accept and understand this fact. In other sports, a good example being cricket, it has clearly been developed over time and it's fairness has improved ever since the inception of the idea.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jan 11, 2020 13:31:03 GMT
Cricket rugby and tennis all have a stop start element in the play Where as football tends to be more free flowing if allowed to be which makes the stops for var less palatable This is the key. In rugby there's a natural pause between try and conversion and so it's easy to slot the TV reviews in after the contentious try has been scored. Also rugby is a sport with more regular points scoring, you don't get 0-0 draws and you very rarely get tryless games so the scoring moments aren't as euphoric for the fans as they are in football where you get lots of 0-0s and teams can go weeks without scoring as we well know. A goal in football is a rarer and more significant moment than a try, or an ace in tennis or wicket in cricket etc. And again in those sports, there's a pause between points in tennis as the server returns to the service line and in cricket where the dismissed batsman walks back to the pavilion. Football at it's best is free flowing and end to end with euphoric moments when important goals are scored. Vokes' winner against Sheffield Wednesday, Diouf's winner against Wigan etc wouldn't have been such euphoric moments if there had been a pause for VAR review before confirmation. Every goal you score has that nagging 'will this be VAR'd' feeling that will temper the initial celebration. Like those goals where the goalkeeper has fallen over and you don't fully celebrate because you know there's a strong chance it'll be ruled out.
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Post by franklin66 on Jan 11, 2020 13:57:45 GMT
To be fair that was a red just at Palace never a yellow so VAR was right imho just.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 13:58:47 GMT
Looks like it’s here to stay but I detest it. Goal line technology is ok but it should have ended there.
Football was always tribal and spontaneous. Sometimes you’d grab a winner through a dodgy offside decision, sometimes it went against you but that’s what made football the magical game it was. Games could turn on a bad decision, the crowd could turn, individual players could turn, goal celebrations were often mental, it was wonderful, exciting and very special.
Now look at it. The game doesn’t flow, the crowd don’t know what’s going on and only half celebrate a goal as they keep one eye on the ref just in case. The magics gone, the spontaneity has gone, football as I knew it has gone.
Years ago I’d watch any game on tv and listen to radio commentary of any match being played if Stoke weren’t playing. Nowadays I’ve no interest in any other match apart from Stoke. It’s changed so much, celebrity referees, snowflake players, a stop start game ruled by tv...
I suppose some will say it’s a case of rose tinted spectacles but for me football really was better for the supporters years ago.
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Post by superleft on Jan 11, 2020 14:00:51 GMT
VAR is working fine. The rules of the game (offside, handball etc) need changing to accommodate having the ability to rerun footage to give the referee the chance to make the right call.
I for one don't want to go back to the injustice of walking out of a game having being stuffed by a shit decision and having to hope it evens out over a season. I'd rather get what we deserve by the letter of the law. It's the law that needs changing now.
It would be massively arrogant of football not to use VAR when rugby in particular uses it so well. And rugby has some very complicated laws.
It will work. This season is a massive knee jerk reaction by the 'we fear change' brigade
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jan 11, 2020 14:04:12 GMT
VAR is an abomination. I'd far rather have to live with the occasional crap decision than have the game atmosphere killed for the fans at the ground.
At the end of the day it's nothing about making the game fair - it's all about building artificial gaps in the game so that streaming companies can slot in adverts while decisions are made. The supporters at the ground don't matter anymore - we'll be replaced by crash test dummies and a soundtrack soon.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jan 11, 2020 14:35:59 GMT
It's awful, got to the point where the players aren't even celebrating goals now.
Like someone above said, all for television and the money that comes with it. As usual, little thought about the fans who actually pay their hard earned money and make the effort to go.
Without them, football is nothing, but they know they will never leave.
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