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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 8, 2024 23:45:25 GMT
So why is the Government still awarding plumb contracts to Fujitsu then, I couldn't possibly imagine?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 9, 2024 7:52:54 GMT
Ex Post mistress Tracey Felstead got her conviction overturned in 2021 which is obviously good. But now she’s is against a mass exoneration because she says ….. "I think we need to be really careful that we're not just going to go and turn everybody's convictions over just in case you have that one person that has committed a crime and you've just turned over their conviction," So Tracey, pleased that you’ve had your conviction overturned, but because there is a risk that one person may be guilty and get away with it you disagree with a mass exoneration ……but in the meantime several hundred innocent people are left in limbo for years as their appeals grind through the courts. I would shut the fuck up if I was you. I'm torn on this. I get where you're coming from about innocent people being still regarded as guilty but in all honesty, I doubt there's a single member of the public who feels that those convictions are still safe and if it was me who had been wronged, I would take comfort from that. And furthermore, waking up one morning to be told my conviction had been overturned due to a mass exoneration, would feel like a pretty hollow result, for me. Every single one of those people, went through very individual and very personal court cases, of nightmare proportions and they deserve to have their appeals treated with exactly the same amount of individuality and everyone of the people responsible for their nightmares, now deserve to find out what it's like to find the boot now on the other foot. Even if it means they are forced to attend multiple appeals processes. Good point you make Paul and one I hadn’t thought of. But Tracey Felstead was not considering this in her statement, just the fact that one person may actually be guilty and get away with it. If she had said what you have said then it would not have sounded so crass.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 9, 2024 8:02:17 GMT
Something that came out of the documentary that’s worth discussion. Why were Fujitsu changing closing balances overnight to show a deficit? If they were concerned about their IT programme wouldn’t they change the closing statements to show that transactions balanced? By doing this there would be nothing to bring the Horizon IT system into question? Or am I missing something here?
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 8:39:11 GMT
So why is the Government still awarding plumb contracts to Fujitsu then, I couldn't possibly imagine? If you read the first line under the main headline, it is an extension to the existing contract they have apparently had for many years. Simon Blagden isn't the chairman of Fujitsu, he was many years ago, and he hasn't donated all that money, it mainly came from the companies he worked with during the last 20 years, some from him, and he got a good job in the health department recently from a minister. All this cronyism isn't good, but all these false facts, isn't that akin to the lies to what has been happening in this scandal ?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 9, 2024 10:33:28 GMT
So why is the Government still awarding plumb contracts to Fujitsu then, I couldn't possibly imagine? If you read the first line under the main headline, it is an extension to the existing contract they have apparently had for many years. Simon Blagden isn't the chairman of Fujitsu, he was many years ago, and he hasn't donated all that money, it mainly came from the companies he worked with during the last 20 years, some from him, and he got a good job in the health department recently from a minister. All this cronyism isn't good, but all these false facts, isn't that akin to the lies to what has been happening in this scandal ? I wouldn't say they are false facts. Blagden was non executive chairman of Fujitsu for FOURTEEN years from 2005 to 2019, is a member of the Conservative party and has either donated money himself personally or via companies he has been a director of. 'Another prolific donor, Simon Blagden, was made a member of the UKHSA advisory board in April. Since 2005, Blagden and companies he is associated with have donated £376,000 to the Conservatives. These include Pietas Ltd, a firm he was director of from 2000 to 2020, and Avre Partnership Limited, which he has been director of since 2014." But most most importantly of all, isn't it an absolute kick in the teeth, both to the sub-postmasters and indeed the tax payer, to find that not only are Fujitsu not being prosecuted but they have been receiving other government contracts, despite the pigs ear they made of Horizon?
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 9, 2024 11:03:10 GMT
All this cronyism isn't good, but all these false facts, isn't that akin to the lies to what has been happening in this scandal ? And this is what it all boils down to for some: Not who might reporting the "truth" but who gets to control the narrative.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 9, 2024 11:08:26 GMT
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 9, 2024 11:16:37 GMT
Meanwhile...
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 11:26:46 GMT
If you read the first line under the main headline, it is an extension to the existing contract they have apparently had for many years. Simon Blagden isn't the chairman of Fujitsu, he was many years ago, and he hasn't donated all that money, it mainly came from the companies he worked with during the last 20 years, some from him, and he got a good job in the health department recently from a minister. All this cronyism isn't good, but all these false facts, isn't that akin to the lies to what has been happening in this scandal ? I wouldn't say they are false facts. Blagden was non executive chairman of Fujitsu for FOURTEEN years from 2005 to 2019, is a member of the Conservative party and has either donated money himself personally or via companies he has been a director of. 'Another prolific donor, Simon Blagden, was made a member of the UKHSA advisory board in April. Since 2005, Blagden and companies he is associated with have donated £376,000 to the Conservatives. These include Pietas Ltd, a firm he was director of from 2000 to 2020, and Avre Partnership Limited, which he has been director of since 2014." But most most importantly of all, isn't it an absolute kick in the teeth, both to the sub-postmasters and indeed the tax payer, to find that not only are Fujitsu not being prosecuted but they have been receiving other government contracts, despite the pigs ear they made of Horizon? You've posted something there that goes against the original tweet you posted that was saying he had donated £376000. The MET haven't done their investigation yet, they will need to ensure that those responsible within Fujitsu at the time, are brought to justice. You probably don't realise that most things you do online, purchasing, banking, etc go through a Fujitsu system, are you going to stop online purchasing because of that? It wasnt that long ago that the furlough scheme was brought online in 3 weeks, 10,000 users supporting millions of people during the pandemic, that was Fujitsu, same as the domestic abuse system was ramped up because of lockdowns. The outset of horizon was a Labour PFI contract awarded to ICL, Fujitsu wouldn't have any idea what was going on when they acquired ICL at the time, they run many contracts that support the UK and the countries infrastructure with no problems, I'm pretty sure that the sub postmasters alliance would only want those involved prosecuted and not the rest of the employees to suffer any consequences, losing jobs etc like they did because of a kangaroo court.
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 11:31:08 GMT
and ? Prosecute the people who caused the scandal, none of them work at Fujitsu and haven't done for many years by your thinking we shouldn't let Labour run for government again as they let the PFI contract in the first place and are associated with it.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 9, 2024 11:40:56 GMT
and ? Prosecute the people who caused the scandal, none of them work at Fujitsu and haven't done for many years by your thinking we shouldn't let Labour run for government again as they let the PFI contract in the first place and are associated with it. I'm pointing out that the Tories have awarded contracts to Fujitsu well after this all began. I'm not sure why you keep banging on about PFI as you well know that I was always opposed to it. Wasn't the initial PFI contract awarded in 1996 by the outgoing Major administration anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 9, 2024 11:43:58 GMT
I wouldn't say they are false facts. Blagden was non executive chairman of Fujitsu for FOURTEEN years from 2005 to 2019, is a member of the Conservative party and has either donated money himself personally or via companies he has been a director of. 'Another prolific donor, Simon Blagden, was made a member of the UKHSA advisory board in April. Since 2005, Blagden and companies he is associated with have donated £376,000 to the Conservatives. These include Pietas Ltd, a firm he was director of from 2000 to 2020, and Avre Partnership Limited, which he has been director of since 2014." But most most importantly of all, isn't it an absolute kick in the teeth, both to the sub-postmasters and indeed the tax payer, to find that not only are Fujitsu not being prosecuted but they have been receiving other government contracts, despite the pigs ear they made of Horizon? You've posted something there that goes against the original tweet you posted that was saying he had donated £376000. The MET haven't done their investigation yet, they will need to ensure that those responsible within Fujitsu at the time, are brought to justice. You probably don't realise that most things you do online, purchasing, banking, etc go through a Fujitsu system, are you going to stop online purchasing because of that? It wasnt that long ago that the furlough scheme was brought online in 3 weeks, 10,000 users supporting millions of people during the pandemic, that was Fujitsu, same as the domestic abuse system was ramped up because of lockdowns. The outset of horizon was a Labour PFI contract awarded to ICL, Fujitsu wouldn't have any idea what was going on when they acquired ICL at the time, they run many contracts that support the UK and the countries infrastructure with no problems, I'm pretty sure that the sub postmasters alliance would only want those involved prosecuted and not the rest of the employees to suffer any consequences, losing jobs etc like they did because of a kangaroo court. If you want to split hairs, then fine but the original tweet didn't say that he had only PERSONALLY donated the money either. Using terms like 'kangaroo court' is a bit rich, when, in 2019, the judge himself said that he believed Fujitsu had deliberately lied under oath. If I'd gone through what the sub-postmasters had gone through, I'd be spitting feathers, if I found out, that since the PO had halted new prosecutions against them, the same company the judge was referring to, had been given 150 other contracts.
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 11:53:48 GMT
and ? Prosecute the people who caused the scandal, none of them work at Fujitsu and haven't done for many years by your thinking we shouldn't let Labour run for government again as they let the PFI contract in the first place and are associated with it. I'm pointing out that the Tories have awarded contracts to Fujitsu well after this all began. I'm not sure why you keep banging on about PFI as you well know that I was always opposed to it. Wasn't the initial PFI contract awarded in 1996 by the outgoing Major administration anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong? The point I'm making is all the flawed screaming going on from ill informed people, you can guarantee that the people involved in the scandal have long gone, probably with bonuses or final salary pensions, and people there now are hard working normal people who had no idea what was going on, why should they pay the consequences, just prosecute those involved, that's what justice should be. Th story you linked mentioned that a contract extension was awarded in 2016 until 2025, that's not totally correct or the whole story, the contract was given to IBM in 2015, but they were making such a mess of it that it was taken off them and given back to Fujitsu for a small number of years, the PO have been trying to go to the cloud with someone like AWS for about 3 years now but just cannot get it to work yet, so keep extending their current contract year on year.
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 11:59:47 GMT
You've posted something there that goes against the original tweet you posted that was saying he had donated £376000. The MET haven't done their investigation yet, they will need to ensure that those responsible within Fujitsu at the time, are brought to justice. You probably don't realise that most things you do online, purchasing, banking, etc go through a Fujitsu system, are you going to stop online purchasing because of that? It wasnt that long ago that the furlough scheme was brought online in 3 weeks, 10,000 users supporting millions of people during the pandemic, that was Fujitsu, same as the domestic abuse system was ramped up because of lockdowns. The outset of horizon was a Labour PFI contract awarded to ICL, Fujitsu wouldn't have any idea what was going on when they acquired ICL at the time, they run many contracts that support the UK and the countries infrastructure with no problems, I'm pretty sure that the sub postmasters alliance would only want those involved prosecuted and not the rest of the employees to suffer any consequences, losing jobs etc like they did because of a kangaroo court. If you want to split hairs, then fine but the original tweet didn't say that he had only PERSONALLY donated the money either. Using terms like 'kangaroo court' is a bit rich, when, in 2019, the judge himself said that he believed Fujitsu had deliberately lied under oath. If I'd gone through what the sub-postmasters had gone through, I'd be spitting feathers, if I found out, that since the PO had halted new prosecutions against them, the same company the judge was referring to, had been given 150 other contracts. This is what the original tweet said: - Simon Blagden, Chairman of Fujitsu, donated £376,000 to the Conservatives, that implies that he did ICL as it was at the time had about 20000 employees, Fujitsu UK as it is now, probably about 10,000, not all of those 10,000 lied, only a handful of people were involved in it did, its them who should be prosecuted and made to suffer the consequences, otherwise you are punishing innocent people aren't you, and as Mr Bates said, more than anything they wanted the truth, they wouldn't want innocent people losing their jobs, possibly homes because of a corrupt few.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 9, 2024 12:04:09 GMT
I'm pointing out that the Tories have awarded contracts to Fujitsu well after this all began. I'm not sure why you keep banging on about PFI as you well know that I was always opposed to it. Wasn't the initial PFI contract awarded in 1996 by the outgoing Major administration anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong? The point I'm making is all the flawed screaming going on from ill informed people, you can guarantee that the people involved in the scandal have long gone, probably with bonuses or final salary pensions, and people there now are hard working normal people who had no idea what was going on, why should they pay the consequences, just prosecute those involved, that's what justice should be. Th story you linked mentioned that a contract extension was awarded in 2016 until 2025, that's not totally correct or the whole story, the contract was given to IBM in 2015, but they were making such a mess of it that it was taken off them and given back to Fujitsu for a small number of years, the PO have been trying to go to the cloud with someone like AWS for about 3 years now but just cannot get it to work yet, so keep extending their current contract year on year. and thats the problem with tory bashing Twitter is awash with these half arsed tales of fujitso cronyism as a way to bash the government. this becomes the narrative and headlines not justice for the posties (as a separate issue by huddy's logic as Tony Blair introduced uni fees labour must therefore take the blame for everything bad associated with it for ever? The tories have inflated uni fees and labour abused pfi. regardless of which party introduced them)
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Post by lordb on Jan 9, 2024 12:08:48 GMT
The most depressing thing for me is some people don't see that we are living in an utterly corrupt country
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 9, 2024 12:14:15 GMT
The most depressing thing for me is some people don't see that we are living in an utterly corrupt country Agreed. Including a fair few on here.
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Post by Veritas on Jan 9, 2024 12:41:41 GMT
I can hardly believe I am thinking this but I am almost starting to feel sorry for Paula Vennell with the stampede by politicians to throw her under the bus to deflect attention away from their years inactivity.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 9, 2024 12:59:35 GMT
I can hardly believe I am thinking this but I am almost starting to feel sorry for Paula Vennell with the stampede by politicians to throw her under the bus to deflect attention away from their years inactivity. And Ed Davey, he's not the only one mired up in this either.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 9, 2024 13:10:56 GMT
I can hardly believe I am thinking this but I am almost starting to feel sorry for Paula Vennell with the stampede by politicians to throw her under the bus to deflect attention away from their years inactivity. Exactly my point it’s white noise deflecting from the issue
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 9, 2024 13:13:21 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Jan 9, 2024 13:25:20 GMT
What this highlights is that if you want government action, you need to find some half decent, British actors and make yourself a tv show.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jan 9, 2024 13:28:40 GMT
Hope she doesn't have to post it back.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 9, 2024 13:29:38 GMT
That’s something. Will any politicians admit wrong doing (for anything, ever)?
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 13:38:10 GMT
I can hardly believe I am thinking this but I am almost starting to feel sorry for Paula Vennell with the stampede by politicians to throw her under the bus to deflect attention away from their years inactivity. And Ed Davey, he's not the only one mired up in this either. he is a politician the last time I looked.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 9, 2024 13:40:29 GMT
If you want to split hairs, then fine but the original tweet didn't say that he had only PERSONALLY donated the money either. Using terms like 'kangaroo court' is a bit rich, when, in 2019, the judge himself said that he believed Fujitsu had deliberately lied under oath. If I'd gone through what the sub-postmasters had gone through, I'd be spitting feathers, if I found out, that since the PO had halted new prosecutions against them, the same company the judge was referring to, had been given 150 other contracts. This is what the original tweet said: - Simon Blagden, Chairman of Fujitsu, donated £376,000 to the Conservatives, that implies that he did ICL as it was at the time had about 20000 employees, Fujitsu UK as it is now, probably about 10,000, not all of those 10,000 lied, only a handful of people were involved in it did, its them who should be prosecuted and made to suffer the consequences, otherwise you are punishing innocent people aren't you, and as Mr Bates said, more than anything they wanted the truth, they wouldn't want innocent people losing their jobs, possibly homes because of a corrupt few. As I said, splitting hairs. He was personally responsible and/or professionally involved in those donations. 20,000 employees working at ICL in the 1990's is a massive red herring that you've decided to introduce as nothing more than a deflection tactic. And the point being made, has nothing to do with individually persecuting 10,000 Fujitsu employees either. If you work for a company that has massively let down it's customer, whilst at the same time, been accused by a court judge of lying under oath, it is understandable that the company you work for will come under scrutiny and as a result of that scrutiny, may find that they lose some of their contracts to that customer (and indeed others). That's how any reputable and dilligent customer (in this case, the government) would look after their shareholders money. The difference being, that in this case, the supplier (Fujitsu) didn't come under any scrutiny and was instead awarded even more contracts or contract extensions. It is perfectly reasonable and indeed extremely important to ask, why that might have been?
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 13:40:44 GMT
The point I'm making is all the flawed screaming going on from ill informed people, you can guarantee that the people involved in the scandal have long gone, probably with bonuses or final salary pensions, and people there now are hard working normal people who had no idea what was going on, why should they pay the consequences, just prosecute those involved, that's what justice should be. Th story you linked mentioned that a contract extension was awarded in 2016 until 2025, that's not totally correct or the whole story, the contract was given to IBM in 2015, but they were making such a mess of it that it was taken off them and given back to Fujitsu for a small number of years, the PO have been trying to go to the cloud with someone like AWS for about 3 years now but just cannot get it to work yet, so keep extending their current contract year on year. and thats the problem with tory bashing Twitter is awash with these half arsed tales of fujitso cronyism as a way to bash the government. this becomes the narrative and headlines not justice for the posties (as a separate issue by huddy's logic as Tony Blair introduced uni fees labour must therefore take the blame for everything bad associated with it for ever? The tories have inflated uni fees and labour abused pfi. regardless of which party introduced them) The post office should be shut down as well.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 9, 2024 13:45:48 GMT
and thats the problem with tory bashing Twitter is awash with these half arsed tales of fujitso cronyism as a way to bash the government. this becomes the narrative and headlines not justice for the posties (as a separate issue by huddy's logic as Tony Blair introduced uni fees labour must therefore take the blame for everything bad associated with it for ever? The tories have inflated uni fees and labour abused pfi. regardless of which party introduced them) The post office should be shut down as well. Not sure what I've done to upset you mate?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 9, 2024 13:47:34 GMT
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Post by Northy on Jan 9, 2024 13:50:18 GMT
This is what the original tweet said: - Simon Blagden, Chairman of Fujitsu, donated £376,000 to the Conservatives, that implies that he did ICL as it was at the time had about 20000 employees, Fujitsu UK as it is now, probably about 10,000, not all of those 10,000 lied, only a handful of people were involved in it did, its them who should be prosecuted and made to suffer the consequences, otherwise you are punishing innocent people aren't you, and as Mr Bates said, more than anything they wanted the truth, they wouldn't want innocent people losing their jobs, possibly homes because of a corrupt few. As I said, splitting hairs. He was personally responsible and/or professionally involved in those donations. 20,000 employees working at ICL in the 1990's is a massive red herring that you've decided to introduce as nothing more than a deflection tactic. And the point being made, has nothing to do with individually persecuting 10,000 Fujitsu employees either. If you work for a company that has massively let down it's customer, whilst at the same time, been accused by a court judge of lying under oath, it is understandable that the company you work for will come under scrutiny and as a result of that scrutiny, may find that they lose some of their contracts to that customer (and indeed others). That's how any reputable and dilligent customer would look after their shareholders money. The difference being, that in this case, the supplier (Fujitsu) didn't come under any scrutiny and was instead awarded even more contracts or contract extensions. It is perfectly reasonable and indeed extremely important to ask, why that might have been? So are you also saying we should shut down the whole of the Post Office, they only have 1 shareholder ? Of course they should come under scrutiny, and they have been and will continue to do so, but the many clients they have with many different types of contracts over many years will see that they have served them well, and that 1 bad apple doesn't spoil a bunch. Fujitsu were also shafted by the government many years ago, awarded a big contract, they leased buildings for many years to serve it, the coalition came in power and stopped the mobilisation and cancelled the contract and basically told them to suck it up if they wanted more contracts in the future, the crash had happened and there was no money, there's a lot that goes on behind all these headlines in the wheels of power.
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