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Post by salopstick on Dec 15, 2019 20:57:03 GMT
Do you honestly believe Partick that if Scotland had voted for independence they would have been denied EU membership? The way Scotland votes is already established as quite independent from England and Wales and similar to that of Northern Ireland. It's inevitable that grievance will build up when a significant amount of the population continually support a pro independence party. No one makes Scots vote for the SNP. You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. Does Scotland need a separate unionist party along the same lines as NI Without labour and the tories contesting.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Dec 15, 2019 20:59:55 GMT
My Scottish mate said although he voted for the SNP it doesn't mean him and his mates want independence! Go figure!
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 21:01:09 GMT
You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. Does Scotland need a separate unionist party along the same lines as NI Without labour and the tories contesting. Absolutely not! The sectarianisation of politics is a dreadful thing - whether along religious or nationalist lines.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 15, 2019 21:01:34 GMT
Change is coming mate and this city will be raped and pillaged by a hard right capitalist agenda. The city has been fucked for decades mate. Worst case it stays one of the shittest cities in Europe. Best case we see improvement to infrastructure, stronger economy leading to more jobs and a stronger NHS. The Tories have been in power for 9 years and fucked the eyeballs out of this City. What changes now is beyond me?
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 21:02:28 GMT
Well ok the SNP took part in the general election of the United Kingdom 🤷♂️ and polled 3%. This is a bit silly now - the post I responded to (not me!) was about Sturgeon’s mandate *among the Scottish people*, which is clearly a relevant measure when talking about Indy ref. The figure was wrong, so I corrected it, and as the poster was a Boris fan I pointed out his vote share was smaller in the UK - also clearly a relevant measure. That’s all. I know and all I did was say your stat about mandate was misleading that's all.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 21:05:26 GMT
What was said in 2014 was a statement of fact - if Scotland voted Yes they would be out of the EU (as well as the Union), if they voted No they would remain in both unions. This wasn’t a statement in perpetuity - remember the Tory policy in 2014 was to offer a referendum so the possibility of Britain leaving the EU was known at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum (something conveniently forgotten because no one believed Brexit would happen). Today though, Sturgeon is on the horns of a dilemma. She knows there still isn’t sufficient popular support for independence despite Brexit. But She knows the clock is ticking on her ability to get Holyrood to agree to an independence referendum. The next Scottish election in 2021 will most likely see a unionist majority. So what does she do - if she gets a vote this year she will lose, if she waits to next year she will lose the ability to call for a vote. The answer is she will try and ratchet up the grievance level even higher in the hope that will push the support for independence beyond 50%. That might be tough to achieve because after 5 years of grievance agitation support has stayed solidly at 45%. Is there any truth in that many Scots vote SNP in the GE because they done necessarily want independence but want Scottish party speaking up for them in parliment The SNP slogan “Stronger for Scotland” was exactly about that. They said, specifically, a vote for them in a GE would not be used by them to justify a push for independence. They are also the party that slags off Johnson about trust and honesty.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 15, 2019 21:25:05 GMT
The SNP is the only credible left of centre option in Scotland and many of its policies are quite attractive to residents (prescriptions, half decent transport service etc). Plenty of people I used to know up there were quite prepared to vote for them in a Gen Election but wanted nothing to do with independence.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 15, 2019 21:26:20 GMT
The city has been fucked for decades mate. Worst case it stays one of the shittest cities in Europe. Best case we see improvement to infrastructure, stronger economy leading to more jobs and a stronger NHS. The Tories have been in power for 9 years and fucked the eyeballs out of this City. What changes now is beyond me? Completely different game now. We have a completely different prime minister to the previous two. For the first time in the cities history we will have three Conservative mp's. The ousted labour mp's were utterly ineffective. We've also now got a strong majority in government which has clearly stressed the importance of addressing the woes of the North. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the next few years will bring. Give it a chance.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 15, 2019 21:30:56 GMT
The Tories have been in power for 9 years and fucked the eyeballs out of this City. What changes now is beyond me? Completely different game now. We have a completely different prime minister to the previous two. For the first time in the cities history we will have three Conservative mp's. The ousted labour mp's were utterly ineffective. We've also now got a strong majority in government which has clearly stressed the importance of addressing the woes of the North. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the next few years will bring. Give it a chance. There is nothing in this Tory agenda that will alleviate people on trolleys in hospital corridors, nothing that will halt the growth of food banks, nothing that will ease in work poverty or increase job security and nothing that will address the shame of homelessness and child hunger. Have people been asleep for 9 years?
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Post by salopstick on Dec 15, 2019 21:31:29 GMT
The Tories have been in power for 9 years and fucked the eyeballs out of this City. What changes now is beyond me? Completely different game now. We have a completely different prime minister to the previous two. For the first time in the cities history we will have three Conservative mp's. The ousted labour mp's were utterly ineffective. We've also now got a strong majority in government which has clearly stressed the importance of addressing the woes of the North. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the next few years will bring. Give it a chance. Too entrenched to give it a chance Prefer to moan before the job has started. The game has changed now. Use it or lose it. Take these northern votes for granted or lose them
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 15, 2019 22:08:10 GMT
I sold a house a few years ago to a Yorkshire couple who lived in Scotland and wanted to move back out of Scotland. If things continue the way they going, I can see a lot more doing it.
If crankie thinks she has a mandate to leave the UK because she doesn't want to be dragged out of the EU, what about the people of the Scottish borders and Shetland etc. who don't want to be dragged out of the UK?
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 15, 2019 22:14:05 GMT
This is a bit silly now - the post I responded to (not me!) was about Sturgeon’s mandate *among the Scottish people*, which is clearly a relevant measure when talking about Indy ref. The figure was wrong, so I corrected it, and as the poster was a Boris fan I pointed out his vote share was smaller in the UK - also clearly a relevant measure. That’s all. I know and all I did was say your stat about mandate was misleading that's all. But it wasn’t 🙄
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 15, 2019 22:36:58 GMT
The Tories have been in power for 9 years and fucked the eyeballs out of this City. What changes now is beyond me? Completely different game now. We have a completely different prime minister to the previous two. For the first time in the cities history we will have three Conservative mp's. The ousted labour mp's were utterly ineffective. We've also now got a strong majority in government which has clearly stressed the importance of addressing the woes of the North. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the next few years will bring. Give it a chance. I think you really know that the majority of people in SoT will be totally fucked over. You'll probably be ever so slightly better off, and you'll hope that others will be too, whilst in your heart you really know that the most vulnerable will be even more stuffed than they are now. You know that the chances of you're "pleasant surprise" are next to zero.
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 15, 2019 22:39:30 GMT
I sold a house a few years ago to a Yorkshire couple who lived in Scotland and wanted to move back out of Scotland. If things continue the way they going, I can see a lot more doing it. If crankie thinks she has a mandate to leave the UK because she doesn't want to be dragged out of the EU, what about the people of the Scottish borders and Shetland etc. who don't want to be dragged out of the UK? Every nurse that I know is actively looking for property in Scotland since last Friday,
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 15, 2019 23:32:08 GMT
I sold a house a few years ago to a Yorkshire couple who lived in Scotland and wanted to move back out of Scotland. If things continue the way they going, I can see a lot more doing it. If crankie thinks she has a mandate to leave the UK because she doesn't want to be dragged out of the EU, what about the people of the Scottish borders and Shetland etc. who don't want to be dragged out of the UK? Every nurse that I know is actively looking for property in Scotland since last Friday, They need to be wary: www.holyrood.com/news/view,nhs-scotland-not-sustainable-and-performance-in-decline-warns-audit-scotlan_9415.htm (above link will not copy and paste) www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45969866I believe the spending on the NHS in Scotland is higher than in England, funded by the English tax payers. Will that continue if Scotland becomes independent? researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN04033The SNP do not have a majority in the Scottish parliament, and if they were to have a majority they have wild spending plans like Labour. I have nothing against Scotland and have holidayed there many times. It is a wonderful country, apart from the small amount of seedy bits, most is wonderful countryside, the best in the UK. My wife and I play tapes/DVDs of Scottish music regularly and have literally just posted a Christmas card to a friend in Scotland. But they live in the border country (Coldstream) and have no desire to split from England. The borders' constituencies virtually all voted Tory. I also have Scottish friends who live in England and do not want to see Scottish independence, but they are disenfranchised of course.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 16, 2019 6:28:30 GMT
We’ve had several attempts at folk defining democracy over recent days. Worth, I think, reminding ourselves of possibly the finest ever definition... One of my absolute favourites that! 😁 "Everybody gets what nobody wants......that’s democracy Dennis" Fucking brilliant?
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 16, 2019 9:15:24 GMT
One of my absolute favourites that! 😁 "Everybody gets what nobody wants......that’s democracy Dennis" Fucking brilliant? I well remember Thatcher saying that under proportional representation the country gets a government nobody voted for. She was very anti PR and said it lead to weak government. She actually quoted The Netherlands as an example that had not agreed a government for over 12 months. That same week in 1976 the Chancellor, Denis Healey had been to the Gnomes of Zurich (IMF) to support the British £ . The largest part of the money to support the £ was from Germany, and second largest from The Netherlands who has "no government" according to Thatcher. The Labour government came to power in 1974 after the miner's strike at the time and Heath's appealing to the people "Who governs Britain?" The people swung behind the Liberal Party, but they only came second in a lot of seats, and Wilson returned to power with a smaller vote but the highest number of MPs. That's UK democracy at work. The unions constantly challenged the Labour government despite policies like "In Place Of Strife", and we ended up with the "winter of discontent" . Thatcher took power in 1979, 5 years after Labour took over.
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Post by noustie on Dec 17, 2019 10:35:55 GMT
Completely different game now. We have a completely different prime minister to the previous two. For the first time in the cities history we will have three Conservative mp's. The ousted labour mp's were utterly ineffective. We've also now got a strong majority in government which has clearly stressed the importance of addressing the woes of the North. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what the next few years will bring. Give it a chance. There is nothing in this Tory agenda that will alleviate people on trolleys in hospital corridors, nothing that will halt the growth of food banks, nothing that will ease in work poverty or increase job security and nothing that will address the shame of homelessness and child hunger. Have people been asleep for 9 years? I moved from Stoke in 2002 up to Dundee and both were shitholes really. When I come back to Stoke now and then it looks to have gone backwards whereas in the last 15 years Dundee has moved forward noticeably.
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Post by noustie on Dec 17, 2019 11:19:03 GMT
I sold a house a few years ago to a Yorkshire couple who lived in Scotland and wanted to move back out of Scotland. If things continue the way they going, I can see a lot more doing it. If crankie thinks she has a mandate to leave the UK because she doesn't want to be dragged out of the EU, what about the people of the Scottish borders and Shetland etc. who don't want to be dragged out of the UK? Every nurse that I know is actively looking for property in Scotland since last Friday, They'll be more than welcome in Dundee sausage.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 17, 2019 17:58:00 GMT
The 200 mile territorial water issue is an interesting point. Wobbling Fish Head assumes that the North Sea oil fields largely reside in what would be Scottish Territorial waters up to 200 miles out. She is wrong because, although the UN Declaration on Economic Sea Territory states that Sovereign Sea Space exists up 200 miles, where there is disputed sea space a line will be drawn that extrapolates from national land division and in the same direction up to 200 miles off the coast. In simple terms for our Nicola this means a line drawn from Carlisle to Berwick and extrapolated 200 miles in NE direction. Everything to the north is Scottish and to the south is English. However Stickleback cannily uses lines of latitude where sea space north of Berwick are Scottish. If there is disputed sea space she’s in for a shock because no doubt much of her economic forecasting depends on North Sea oil revenue. That North Sea oil argument which was a plank of the economic case in 2014 is a big problem now. First because the price of oil has collapsed. Second because Scotland’s carbon neutral commitments means it needs to stay under the North Sea. Excuse me for quoting myself, but this article in today’s Scotsman covers the ground above; Scottish Government faces ‘policy paradox’ over support for North Sea oil and climate crisisWorth a read
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 17, 2019 21:26:52 GMT
Scotland won't vote for independence come what may. Their biggest national identity is complaining about how the English ruin everything for them. Independence takes that away. Bit like Farage and Brexit, does he really want it to go away forever, what's he going to do to get his fix of the limelight?
Similarly the right and Europe. Who are they going to blame for all the UK's ongoing problems once the EU has fucked off?! They've been in power for ten years, the deficit is still there five years after it was supposed to have been eliminated, debt has more than doubled, services are on their knees, violent crime through the roof...one wonders whose fault all of this is as it simply cannot be that of the right, we know that...?
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 19, 2019 18:50:42 GMT
Did anyone see Boris tell Ian Blackford he was boring when he was looking at his phone while Blackford was spewing his guff today, fuckin hilarious.
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Post by raythesailor on Dec 19, 2019 20:49:33 GMT
Nichola has been mouthing off all day on the TV. She really can be obnoxious.
I think in the near future somebody wants to start quizzing her on the actual practicalness of how it could actually work. If we think Brexit is difficult it would be nothing like this .
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2019 21:49:54 GMT
Scotland won't vote for independence come what may. Their biggest national identity is complaining about how the English ruin everything for them. Independence takes that away. Bit like Farage and Brexit, does he really want it to go away forever, what's he going to do to get his fix of the limelight? Similarly the right and Europe. Who are they going to blame for all the UK's ongoing problems once the EU has fucked off?! They've been in power for ten years, the deficit is still there five years after it was supposed to have been eliminated, debt has more than doubled, services are on their knees, violent crime through the roof...one wonders whose fault all of this is as it simply cannot be that of the right, we know that...? In my opinion some Scots want independence because they want to be independent, self governing. They think that it is better for them to tun their own things themselves. The only people who I have heard who say that anyone blames the EU for Britain's ongoing problems are Remainers....so that they can oppose the argument that they have invented. Once we are out of the EU we will have to deal with issues of creating a fair society, the health of the nation, employment, rough sleepers, housing, giving hope to young people,Crime, trade etc just like any country has to , in or out of the EU. " Blame" for each of the issues is a combination of factors. Eg I've heard some knowledgeable heart specialists say that the main " blame" for heart disease is lifestyle....as we know, diet, exercise, smoking etc.( alongside hereditary)....no point blaming the EU for that. Many cultural issues contribute to knife crime. Of course Governmental priorities will have an impact but I've never heard anyone blaming the EU for all these problems.... except in the imagination of dome Remainers
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2019 21:57:12 GMT
Scotland won't vote for independence come what may. Their biggest national identity is complaining about how the English ruin everything for them. Independence takes that away. Bit like Farage and Brexit, does he really want it to go away forever, what's he going to do to get his fix of the limelight? Similarly the right and Europe. Who are they going to blame for all the UK's ongoing problems once the EU has fucked off?! They've been in power for ten years, the deficit is still there five years after it was supposed to have been eliminated, debt has more than doubled, services are on their knees, violent crime through the roof...one wonders whose fault all of this is as it simply cannot be that of the right, we know that...? In my opinion some Scots want independence because they want to be independent, self governing. They think that it is better for them to tun their own things themselves. The only people who I have heard who say that anyone blames the EU for Britain's ongoing problems are Remainers....so that they can oppose the argument that they have invented. Once we are out of the EU we will have to deal with issues of creating a fair society, the health of the nation, employment, rough sleepers, housing, giving hope to young people,Crime, trade etc just like any country has to , in or out of the EU. " Blame" for each of the issues is a combination of factors. Eg I've heard some knowledgeable heart specialists say that the main " blame" for heart disease is lifestyle....as we know, diet, exercise, smoking etc.( alongside hereditary)....no point blaming the EU for that. Many cultural issues contribute to knife crime. Of course Governmental priorities will have an impact but I've never heard anyone blaming the EU for all these problems.... except in the imagination of dome Remainers You've never heard a Brexit supporter suggest that the money we send to the EU could be used to provide shelter to the homeless, or that employment (or lack of) is affected by EU migrants? Or crime increasing due to Eastern European gangs arriving more easily due to us being part of the EU? Or that being part of the EU is detrimental to our trading with other countries? Come on, I'm all for debate but you're re-writing history here. You yourself have said many of those things.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2019 22:10:51 GMT
In my opinion some Scots want independence because they want to be independent, self governing. They think that it is better for them to tun their own things themselves. The only people who I have heard who say that anyone blames the EU for Britain's ongoing problems are Remainers....so that they can oppose the argument that they have invented. Once we are out of the EU we will have to deal with issues of creating a fair society, the health of the nation, employment, rough sleepers, housing, giving hope to young people,Crime, trade etc just like any country has to , in or out of the EU. " Blame" for each of the issues is a combination of factors. Eg I've heard some knowledgeable heart specialists say that the main " blame" for heart disease is lifestyle....as we know, diet, exercise, smoking etc.( alongside hereditary)....no point blaming the EU for that. Many cultural issues contribute to knife crime. Of course Governmental priorities will have an impact but I've never heard anyone blaming the EU for all these problems.... except in the imagination of dome Remainers You've never heard a Brexit supporter suggest that the money we send to the EU could be used to provide shelter to the homeless, or that employment (or lack of) is affected by EU migrants? Or crime increasing due to Eastern European gangs arriving more easily due to us being part of the EU? Or that being part of the EU is detrimental to our trading with other countries? Come on, I'm all for debate but you're re-writing history here. You yourself have said many of those things. I've never heard s Brexiteer say that the EU has caused the issues that I've referred to. I have heard us say that we are net contributors to the budget and that money could be better spent on priorities that we set ourselves, rather than give it away to the highly bureaucratic EU for them to decide on priorities and to give some of it back to us...and then claim credit fir it. I've heard Brexiteers say that. I've never heard them blame the EU for people getting ill or stabbing each other.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2019 22:38:42 GMT
You've never heard a Brexit supporter suggest that the money we send to the EU could be used to provide shelter to the homeless, or that employment (or lack of) is affected by EU migrants? Or crime increasing due to Eastern European gangs arriving more easily due to us being part of the EU? Or that being part of the EU is detrimental to our trading with other countries? Come on, I'm all for debate but you're re-writing history here. You yourself have said many of those things. I've never heard s Brexiteer say that the EU has caused the issues that I've referred to. I have heard us say that we are net contributors to the budget and that money could be better spent on priorities that we set ourselves, rather than give it away to the highly bureaucratic EU for them to decide on priorities and to give some of it back to us...and then claim credit fir it. I've heard Brexiteers say that. I've never heard them blame the EU for people getting ill or stabbing each other. Getting ill and stabbing each other, you're probably right - I haven't heard those ones. All the other ones you've listed certainly have been mentioned.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2019 22:41:45 GMT
I've never heard s Brexiteer say that the EU has caused the issues that I've referred to. I have heard us say that we are net contributors to the budget and that money could be better spent on priorities that we set ourselves, rather than give it away to the highly bureaucratic EU for them to decide on priorities and to give some of it back to us...and then claim credit fir it. I've heard Brexiteers say that. I've never heard them blame the EU for people getting ill or stabbing each other. Getting ill and stabbing each other, you're probably right - I haven't heard those ones. All the other ones you've listed certainly have been mentioned. I don't think do.... rough sleepers, housing etc.... it's just Remainers trying to invent a position so that they could be correct in opposing it. The fault of the EU is a democratic one, about power, control and representation
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2019 23:05:12 GMT
Getting ill and stabbing each other, you're probably right - I haven't heard those ones. All the other ones you've listed certainly have been mentioned. I don't think do.... rough sleepers, housing etc.... it's just Remainers trying to invent a position so that they could be correct in opposing it. The fault of the EU is a democratic one, about power, control and representation I think it's clear who is inventing things three-and-a-half years on from the referendum. I'll leave it there though, as the conversation is fairly pointless. Boris Johnson will decide what Brexit was about now.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2019 23:12:56 GMT
I don't think do.... rough sleepers, housing etc.... it's just Remainers trying to invent a position so that they could be correct in opposing it. The fault of the EU is a democratic one, about power, control and representation I think it's clear who is inventing things three-and-a-half years on from the referendum. I'll leave it there though, as the conversation is fairly pointless. Boris Johnson will decide what Brexit was about now. Yes , let's leave it there... you have not given me any examples in which Brexiteers have laid all/ many of our problems at the door of the EU, problems that every country has , in or out of the EU. It's a fabrication in the imagination of Remainers.... keep saying it and some may believe it to be true. The Referendum was about self governance/ independence, not blame....of course some things such as agricultural policy, fishing policy ..we would be better off outside of... self determination
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