|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:28:38 GMT
nothing wrong with wanting 'good old england' it doesn't make you racist, in fact, this is one of labours problems, some of them come across as hating england and British values. Are the SNP, Plaid Cymru racist? On the basis to love England make you racist then the answer must be yes!!! No, not at all, there's a difference between the Plaid/SNP politics of ensuring social parity for those in Wales and Scotland with the English, and the 'Cultural conservativism' of believing that other cultures coming into the country are some sort of malign influence. The SNP and Plaid are about their respective nations' prosperity through multiculturalism and social justice.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 17:30:48 GMT
Are the SNP, Plaid Cymru racist? On the basis to love England make you racist then the answer must be yes!!! No, not at all, there's a difference between the Plaid/SNP politics of ensuring social parity for those in Wales and Scotland with the English, and the 'Cultural conservativism' of believing that other cultures coming into the country are some sort of malign influence. The SNP and Plaid are about their respective nations' prosperity through multiculturalism and social justice. That's the point though it is perceived to be racist to be a proud Englishman and campaign as such or fly the flag. In no other part of the UK is this the same.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:32:07 GMT
Honestly, because they've been ignored and told everything is brilliant when it isn't, usually by right or centre politicians. Things over the last 100 years have tended to move left as time has gone on, and I hope to god that carries on. As much as you say it's just 'PC libtards', there is a worrying rise in the slow public acceptance of nationalism over the past 5 years or so. I pray Labour doesn't try and appeal to this, because a left wing economic policy and a 'socially conservative' right wing social policy means we move towards abandoning everything we teach our kids about tolerance, equality and the fact all people deserve opportunity in life. People are becoming more right wing because the policies of the far left socialists have been pretty much proven as flawed, the people who seem to think they are owed a living are along with the champagne socialist set those who supported the Corbynite policies, Labour have neglected their working class supporter base as a result their base has crumbled, they feel disenfranchised by the left thus they have backed the Tories. Whether you like it or not uncontrolled mass immigration started by a Labour government, the pressure put on all our services by mass migration, law and order, lack of housing for indigenous people whilst immigrants are prioritised, free NHS services for illegals, NHS tourism, low pay due to the amount of low skilled migrants flooding the country from the EU, the apparent blocking of the implementation of Brexit these are real issues with real working class tax paying people in this country, Labour were not trusted to address these issues indeed many feel they would have added to them. I 100% agree that some of that is what some people feel and I hope labour try to find a way of dispelling those myths in the future rather than pandering to them.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:33:56 GMT
No, not at all, there's a difference between the Plaid/SNP politics of ensuring social parity for those in Wales and Scotland with the English, and the 'Cultural conservativism' of believing that other cultures coming into the country are some sort of malign influence. The SNP and Plaid are about their respective nations' prosperity through multiculturalism and social justice. That's the point though it is perceived to be racist to be a proud Englishman and campaign as such or fly the flag. In no other part of the UK is this the same. No it isn't. This is like when the classic 'you can't even say happy Christmas anymore' line comes out every year. It's rubbish and scaremongering. Being proud to be British is both encouraged and a good thing. It's perceived to be racist or xenophobic when you hate the people of other countries for their birthplace. Or when you believe you are 'more british' than others who are 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 17:38:54 GMT
That's the point though it is perceived to be racist to be a proud Englishman and campaign as such or fly the flag. In no other part of the UK is this the same. No it isn't. This is like when the classic 'you can't even say happy Christmas anymore' line comes out every year. It's rubbish and scaremongering. Being proud to be British is both encouraged and a good thing. It's perceived to be racist or xenophobic when you hate the people of other countries for their birthplace. Or when you believe you are 'more british' than others who are 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants. Yes it is forgive me but I'll take a simplistic view, BNP, UKIP, BRITAIN FIRST, BREXIT PARTY and others all racist. The SNP are just proud Scots etc.....
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 17:42:54 GMT
People are becoming more right wing because the policies of the far left socialists have been pretty much proven as flawed, the people who seem to think they are owed a living are along with the champagne socialist set those who supported the Corbynite policies, Labour have neglected their working class supporter base as a result their base has crumbled, they feel disenfranchised by the left thus they have backed the Tories. Whether you like it or not uncontrolled mass immigration started by a Labour government, the pressure put on all our services by mass migration, law and order, lack of housing for indigenous people whilst immigrants are prioritised, free NHS services for illegals, NHS tourism, low pay due to the amount of low skilled migrants flooding the country from the EU, the apparent blocking of the implementation of Brexit these are real issues with real working class tax paying people in this country, Labour were not trusted to address these issues indeed many feel they would have added to them. I 100% agree that some of that is what some people feel and I hope labour try to find a way of dispelling those myths in the future rather than pandering to them. Myths mate, I spent over 12 years in the Welfare to work sector, many of these concerns are not myths 100%, these are real issues this has been festering for a long time hence the reason labour voters have turned on the MP's who have failed to represent their views.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:44:55 GMT
No it isn't. This is like when the classic 'you can't even say happy Christmas anymore' line comes out every year. It's rubbish and scaremongering. Being proud to be British is both encouraged and a good thing. It's perceived to be racist or xenophobic when you hate the people of other countries for their birthplace. Or when you believe you are 'more british' than others who are 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants. Yes it is forgive me but I'll take a simplistic view, BNP,UKIP, BRITAIN FIRST, BREXIT PARTY and others all racist. The SNP are just proud Scots etc..... BNP - Racist UKIP - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. Britain First - Racist Brexit Party - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. SNP - Centre-left multiculturalist party. Not racist.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 17:45:17 GMT
That's the point though it is perceived to be racist to be a proud Englishman and campaign as such or fly the flag. In no other part of the UK is this the same. No it isn't. This is like when the classic 'you can't even say happy Christmas anymore' line comes out every year. It's rubbish and scaremongering. Being proud to be British is both encouraged and a good thing. It's perceived to be racist or xenophobic when you hate the people of other countries for their birthplace. Or when you believe you are 'more british' than others who are 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants. How about English as in proud to be English is that racist ?, I don't see myself as British I am English and proud of it does that make me a racist ?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:45:41 GMT
I 100% agree that some of that is what some people feel and I hope labour try to find a way of dispelling those myths in the future rather than pandering to them. Myths mate, I spent over 12 years in the Welfare to work sector, many of these concerns are not myths 100%, these are real issues this has been festering for a long time hence the reason labour voters have turned on the MP's who have failed to represent their views. Ok. I'm not saying they're not real issues, because people clearly have those views. The question is how Labour engages these people without turning into a 'kick them out' party.
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 15, 2019 17:47:30 GMT
People are becoming more right wing because the policies of the far left socialists have been pretty much proven as flawed, the people who seem to think they are owed a living are along with the champagne socialist set those who supported the Corbynite policies, Labour have neglected their working class supporter base as a result their base has crumbled, they feel disenfranchised by the left thus they have backed the Tories. Whether you like it or not uncontrolled mass immigration started by a Labour government, the pressure put on all our services by mass migration, law and order, lack of housing for indigenous people whilst immigrants are prioritised, free NHS services for illegals, NHS tourism, low pay due to the amount of low skilled migrants flooding the country from the EU, the apparent blocking of the implementation of Brexit these are real issues with real working class tax paying people in this country, Labour were not trusted to address these issues indeed many feel they would have added to them. I 100% agree that some of that is what some people feel and I hope labour try to find a way of dispelling those myths in the future rather than pandering to them. That sure is a fancy way of saying anyone who thinks differently to me is a thicko racist. It didn't work in the referendum, it didn't work in the election, and on a thread specifically made to ask what the left did wrong, it's great to see you've learned absolutely nothing.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 17:50:23 GMT
Yes it is forgive me but I'll take a simplistic view, BNP,UKIP, BRITAIN FIRST, BREXIT PARTY and others all racist. The SNP are just proud Scots etc..... BNP - Racist UKIP - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. Britain First - Racist Brexit Party - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. SNP - Centre-left multiculturalist party. Not racist. Point made. Edit: I meant MY point made 👍
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 17:52:21 GMT
Yes it is forgive me but I'll take a simplistic view, BNP,UKIP, BRITAIN FIRST, BREXIT PARTY and others all racist. The SNP are just proud Scots etc..... BNP - Racist UKIP - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. Britain First - Racist Brexit Party - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. SNP - Centre-left multiculturalist party. Not racist. English Defence League- racist or not Muslim Defence League- racist or not
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:55:17 GMT
I 100% agree that some of that is what some people feel and I hope labour try to find a way of dispelling those myths in the future rather than pandering to them. That sure is a fancy way of saying anyone who thinks differently to me is a thicko racist. It didn't work in the referendum, it didn't work in the election, and on a thread specifically made to ask what the left did wrong, it's great to see you've learned absolutely nothing. It's not at all, I don't think people with those views are racist at all. But I do believe that politicians could turn the conversation that way and persuade people to move from genuine concerns to scaremongering and hatred. It has already happened to a small number of people in some of the Katie Hopkins/Tommy Robinson ends of the debating spectrum. I think the vast majority of people are inherently good and inherently want to help others. I also think humans are susceptible to rhetoric on both ends of the spectrum, and we have to be very careful when treading this line we're currently on.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 17:58:58 GMT
BNP - Racist UKIP - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. Britain First - Racist Brexit Party - One issue party, not inherently racist but struggled to deal with a fair bit of racism within. SNP - Centre-left multiculturalist party. Not racist. English Defence League- racist or not Muslim Defence League- racist or not
English Defence League - Racist I've never heard of the Muslim defence league, but if it's entire purpose is to remove and spark hatred against another group of people based on religion, race, sexuality, gender or any other protected characteristic like the EDL then yes, they're racist. If they are a protest group against the EDL, with only opposition to them, and not to all other British people then no, that isn't racist.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 18:00:07 GMT
Myths mate, I spent over 12 years in the Welfare to work sector, many of these concerns are not myths 100%, these are real issues this has been festering for a long time hence the reason labour voters have turned on the MP's who have failed to represent their views. Ok. I'm not saying they're not real issues, because people clearly have those views. The question is how Labour engages these people without turning into a 'kick them out' party. They are not just views they are real issues I have had first hand experience of some of these issues have you ?, it's not so muck kicking them out to start with it has to a measured process, once freedom of movement has been stopped the EU immigration issue will sort itself, we then have to sort he issue of mass uncontrolled migration from out side the EU, we have the powers already we have to implement them, illegal migrants have to be rooted out and deported no rights to stay they are here illegally end of, stricter border control I see three more have been caught in Longport smuggling themselves in a chilled food lorry, no more free NHS for illegals or NHS tourists.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 15, 2019 18:02:47 GMT
Ms Nandy made a number of proposals - including moving the party's headquarters out of London - to help "rebuild that coalition" between "the Lewishams and the Leighs", and to regain a Labour Party that "speaks for both".
I agree. If kids want to come out of uni straight into party headquarters surely being based in Leeds would open up their eyes instead of the south bubble
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 18:03:33 GMT
English Defence League- racist or not Muslim Defence League- racist or not
English Defence League - Racist I've never heard of the Muslim defence league, but if it's entire purpose is to remove and spark hatred against another group of people based on religion, race, sexuality, gender or any other protected characteristic like the EDL then yes, they're racist. If they are a protest group against the EDL, with only opposition to them, and not to all other British people then no, that isn't racist. Google it son, they throw bricks, bottles and missiles at men, women and kids mainly white people to drive them away from a political ally, is that racist ? I fear for you I really do.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:04:54 GMT
Ok. I'm not saying they're not real issues, because people clearly have those views. The question is how Labour engages these people without turning into a 'kick them out' party. They are not just views they are real issues I have had first hand experience of some of these issues have you ?, it's not so muck kicking them out to start with it has to a measured process, once freedom of movement has been stopped the EU immigration issue will sort itself, we then have to sort he issue of mass uncontrolled migration from out side the EU, we have the powers already we have to implement them, illegal migrants have to be rooted out and deported no rights to stay they are here illegally end of, stricter border control I see three more have been caught in Longport smuggling themselves in a chilled food lorry, no more free NHS for illegals or NHS tourists. There's the difference. Immigration control is absolutely fine, and is an issue that needs discussing. But we have to be incredibly careful to make sure it doesn't descend into 'get them out, British jobs for british people, why is there a mosque in my town centre' instead of the genuine issues. There is no mass uncontrolled immigration from outside the EU, and stricter border control does not necessarily mean lower levels of illegal immigrants [1]. I understand all these issues are important, but there is a very fine line when talking about these things between genuine discussion and demonisation of others. [1] www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5049707/
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 18:05:54 GMT
I 100% agree that some of that is what some people feel and I hope labour try to find a way of dispelling those myths in the future rather than pandering to them. That sure is a fancy way of saying anyone who thinks differently to me is a thicko racist. It didn't work in the referendum, it didn't work in the election, and on a thread specifically made to ask what the left did wrong, it's great to see you've learned absolutely nothing. I hope he teaches better than he learns or the kids will leave school as illiterates.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:06:36 GMT
English Defence League - Racist I've never heard of the Muslim defence league, but if it's entire purpose is to remove and spark hatred against another group of people based on religion, race, sexuality, gender or any other protected characteristic like the EDL then yes, they're racist. If they are a protest group against the EDL, with only opposition to them, and not to all other British people then no, that isn't racist. Google it son, they throw bricks, bottles and missiles at men, women and kids mainly white people to drive them away from a political ally, is that racist ? I fear for you I really do. A political ally being the EDL? If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're not racist.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:07:43 GMT
That sure is a fancy way of saying anyone who thinks differently to me is a thicko racist. It didn't work in the referendum, it didn't work in the election, and on a thread specifically made to ask what the left did wrong, it's great to see you've learned absolutely nothing. I hope he teaches better than he learns or the kids will leave school as illiterates. Personal attacks are a fantastic way to lose an argument.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 18:10:37 GMT
Google it son, they throw bricks, bottles and missiles at men, women and kids mainly white people to drive them away from a political ally, is that racist ? I fear for you I really do. A political ally being the EDL? If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're not racist. No not the EDL my God you are getting worse.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:12:03 GMT
A political ally being the EDL? If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're not racist. No not the EDL my God you are getting worse. Because I misunderstood what you wrote? As I said: If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're violent and racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're violent, but not racist.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 18:16:08 GMT
I hope he teaches better than he learns or the kids will leave school as illiterates. Personal attacks are a fantastic way to lose an argument. You should know that son, you lost this argument two hours ago and have resorted to personal attacks many times on this board, now I accept you are still smarting from the dry bumming Labour received but try to accept defeat in a dignified fashion, you bang on about racism and equality but supported a Party that is ingrained with racism, you are a prime example of the socialist hypocrites that have ruined the Labour Party as the party of the true working class.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 18:17:16 GMT
No not the EDL my God you are getting worse. Because I misunderstood what you wrote? As I said: If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're violent and racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're violent, but not racist. come back when you grow up.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 18:18:31 GMT
No not the EDL my God you are getting worse. Because I misunderstood what you wrote? As I said: If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're violent and racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're violent, but not racist. Flawed argument you can NOT deny racism because it for a perceived "good cause" it either is or is not.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:21:13 GMT
Because I misunderstood what you wrote? As I said: If they throw things at white people because they're white then they're violent and racist. If they throw things at racists in EDL rallies then they're violent, but not racist. Flawed argument you can NOT deny racism because it for a perceived "good cause" it either is or is not. I'm not saying 'its for a good cause'. I'm saying it isn't racism if you are not targeting a specific race. They're targeting people who threaten their livelihood in this country. That's like calling soldiers in WWII 'racist' because they only attacked Germans.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 15, 2019 18:24:18 GMT
Ms Nandy made a number of proposals - including moving the party's headquarters out of London - to help "rebuild that coalition" between "the Lewishams and the Leighs", and to regain a Labour Party that "speaks for both". I agree. If kids want to come out of uni straight into party headquarters surely being based in Leeds would open up their eyes instead of the south bubble I thought she spoke well. Of course, Anvil Face prefers idiots like Burgon and Butler, because they are from the preferred "wing" of the party. Even she virtue signals a bit too much for me, but she's leagues above those two.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 18:25:57 GMT
Flawed argument you can NOT deny racism because it for a perceived "good cause" it either is or is not. I'm not saying 'its for a good cause'. I'm saying it isn't racism if you are not targeting a specific race. They're targeting people who threaten their livelihood in this country. That's like calling soldiers in WWII 'racist' because they only attacked Germans. You are !!!! Throwing things at the edl is ok why? Because they are nasty racist people and they deserve it. Throw at muslims and that's racist, ok devils advocate are the muslims threatening the livelihood of the EDL? If so then it's ok right ?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:28:01 GMT
I'm not saying 'its for a good cause'. I'm saying it isn't racism if you are not targeting a specific race. They're targeting people who threaten their livelihood in this country. That's like calling soldiers in WWII 'racist' because they only attacked Germans. You are !!!! Throwing things at the edl is ok why? Because they are nasty racist people and they deserve it. Throw at muslims and that's racist, ok devils advocate are the muslims threatening the livelihood of the EDL? If so then it's ok right ? I didn't say it was okay at all? It isn't, it's violent and they should be arrested. Throw at Muslims because they're Muslims - Racist & Violent Throw at white people because they're white - Racist & Violent Throw at EDL members because they are in the EDL - Violent, not racist.
|
|