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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 11, 2019 16:59:30 GMT
How does this work exactly though? Our other midfielders, and he's been here long enough to have a lot of different midfield partners now, aren't responsible for him going walkabout. Or failing to press the ball. Or failing to track runners. Because Joe is a good player, how many managers have we had and they all agree Joe Allen is undroppable. Why is that? That’s 4 managers who are professional football managers, never mind the Wales managers who he always plays for. That says it all really. You mean the 4 who got sacked?
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Joe Allen
Dec 11, 2019 17:01:40 GMT
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Post by sensiblestokie on Dec 11, 2019 17:01:40 GMT
He’s Joe Allen not Leo Messi, he’s a good player. Not world class. You can surely apply the same argument to anyone in the squad then? I’d expect a player on his wages and reputation to not have to rely entirely on those around him to press properly and pick up runners. Certainly has his flaws. Like I said, he wouldn’t be here else. When you look at the rest of the dross in the squad though, who else would any Championship or even low end Premier League teams want to pick up? Regardless of wage, me or you don’t pay it so who cares? The team around him isn’t good enough, nor set up for him. Which it should if he’s one of our better players. If we aren’t going to do this, sell him. Personally I’d rather get the right players in because he’s shown for us and still shows for Wales he’s a good midfielder. This isn’t a case if he’s just wank, he’s performing for Wales regularly, so to me that shows questions have to be asked here.
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Joe Allen
Dec 11, 2019 17:02:38 GMT
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Post by sensiblestokie on Dec 11, 2019 17:02:38 GMT
Because Joe is a good player, how many managers have we had and they all agree Joe Allen is undroppable. Why is that? That’s 4 managers who are professional football managers, never mind the Wales managers who he always plays for. That says it all really. You mean the 4 who got sacked? Yes, I do. Were they sacked because of Joe Allen then? Is Ryan Giggs going to be sacked because of Joe Allen?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2019 17:09:55 GMT
How does this work exactly though? Our other midfielders, and he's been here long enough to have a lot of different midfield partners now, aren't responsible for him going walkabout. Or failing to press the ball. Or failing to track runners. Because Joe is a good player, how many managers have we had and they all agree Joe Allen is undroppable. Why is that? That’s 4 managers who are professional football managers, never mind the Wales managers who he always plays for. That says it all really. All of whom were sacked. Maybe it's a wages thing and they feel that pressure. Maybe it's a dressing room thing. Maybe they, like you, are blinded by reputation. So again, are you saying he doesn't do any of that stuff? He doesn't go walkabout and leave huge gaps, he does track runners?
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 11, 2019 17:21:53 GMT
Joe Allen is a very good player. Everyone outside of Stoke can’t believe that he’s still here. We don’t know what we’ve got till it’s gone! Allen plays better for Wales because he’s playing alongside better players. I agree and would add that all players need to play with players that complement them, it's a team game. At the risk of being criticized again I think one of our issues is that Allen, N'Diaye, and Etebo are similar box to box players. MON seems to prefer playing one of the 3 and 2 other MFs. Allen gets the manager's vote because he get's into goal scoring positions. You can of course argue that so would N'Diaye or Etebo if Allen wasn't there. There s no doubt that managers have favourites, as do fans. Clearly Allen is a favourite of every Stoke manager. Fans who don't like that just have to hope another club comes with a large offer for him in January, but I suspect they are in the minority.
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 11, 2019 17:30:20 GMT
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Stoke dressing room today listening to the comments in reply to the premise that we only won 3 - 0 last night because the crowd started booing.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2019 17:32:57 GMT
Allen plays better for Wales because he’s playing alongside better players. I agree and would add that all players need to play with players that complement them, it's a team game. At the risk of being criticized again I think one of our issues is that Allen, N'Diaye, and Etebo are similar box to box players. MON seems to prefer playing one of the 3 and 2 other MFs. Allen gets the manager's vote because he get's into goal scoring positions. You can of course argue that so would N'Diaye or Etebo if Allen wasn't there. There s no doubt that managers have favourites, as do fans. Clearly Allen is a favourite of every Stoke manager. Fans who don't like that just have to hope another club comes with a large offer for him in January, but I suspect they are in the minority. We're playing 433 though Cokey - with a holding midfielder. Of the three, who has performed best in that role in your opinion overall? Ndiaye Cousins Woods
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Joe Allen
Dec 11, 2019 17:36:33 GMT
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Dec 11, 2019 17:36:33 GMT
He’s neither defensive nor attacking, there you go, so just what the fuck does he do exactly? other than run around, leave massive gaps, get wrestled constantly off the ball, miscontrol and misplace passes and be one of if not the leading cause in our midfield deteriorating to conference level. The bloke is shite, was never needed and if any team in this league parted with actual money for him I’d set my mum on fire. I can’t wait to see the back of the entirety of this squad but Allen is so far and away at the top of my list it’s staggering. Comfortably my least favourite Stoke player I’ve seen in my lifetime. All the dross we have been lumbered with in recent years, players with not an ounce of integrity or professionalism, yet you single out Joe Allen for your vitriol. Wankest post I have read in a long, long time And he’s the top of the dross pile, my opinion and it won’t change.
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Joe Allen
Dec 11, 2019 17:39:04 GMT
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Post by sensiblestokie on Dec 11, 2019 17:39:04 GMT
Because Joe is a good player, how many managers have we had and they all agree Joe Allen is undroppable. Why is that? That’s 4 managers who are professional football managers, never mind the Wales managers who he always plays for. That says it all really. All of whom were sacked. Maybe it's a wages thing and they feel that pressure. Maybe it's a dressing room thing. Maybe they, like you, are blinded by reputation. So again, are you saying he doesn't do any of that stuff? He doesn't go walkabout and leave huge gaps, he does track runners? I’m saying that shouldn’t be solely his job. I aren’t blinded by reputation I just understand a bit about footy. It’s not really that difficult.
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Post by pushon on Dec 11, 2019 17:42:17 GMT
All the dross we have been lumbered with in recent years, players with not an ounce of integrity or professionalism, yet you single out Joe Allen for your vitriol. Wankest post I have read in a long, long time And he’s the top of the dross pile, my opinion and it won’t change. Very good player our Joe and we're very lucky to have him.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2019 17:42:23 GMT
All of whom were sacked. Maybe it's a wages thing and they feel that pressure. Maybe it's a dressing room thing. Maybe they, like you, are blinded by reputation. So again, are you saying he doesn't do any of that stuff? He doesn't go walkabout and leave huge gaps, he does track runners? I’m saying that shouldn’t be solely his job. I aren’t blinded by reputation I just understand a bit about footy. It’s not really that difficult. Nobody has said it's solely his job. But he has responsibilities off the ball that he continually neglects and he is the chief offender when it comes to positional indiscipline that causes us to lose our shape.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Dec 11, 2019 17:48:53 GMT
All the dross we have been lumbered with in recent years, players with not an ounce of integrity or professionalism, yet you single out Joe Allen for your vitriol. Wankest post I have read in a long, long time And he’s the top of the dross pile, my opinion and it won’t change. Opinions hey. Personally I think on the whole he has under performed for us. But I've definitely got a fair few other players above him on the list of shit. But my opinion for what its worth is that most of the players have underperformed over the last few years and I put the major contributing factor for that down to the way the club has been run. If the club don't create the optimum conditions for the players to perform then how can they expect the players to be at optimum level week after week? Catastrophic strategic decision making from our board time and time again. Get a competent senior management team in place and watch the ship turn around. It really isn't rocket science. They had the brass to do it but spunked it all chasing unsuitable managers and letting them fill the squad with unsuitable players. No quality control from above. Recipe for disaster.
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 11, 2019 17:54:06 GMT
I’m saying that shouldn’t be solely his job. I aren’t blinded by reputation I just understand a bit about footy. It’s not really that difficult. Nobody has said it's solely his job. But he has responsibilities off the ball that he continually neglects and he is the chief offender when it comes to positional indiscipline that causes us to lose our shape. I'm not sure whether last night was a one off and I accept how shit Luton were but Allen seemed less undisciplined. He was clearly playing higher up the pitch and didn't seem to do the 'dog chasing a balloon' routine all over the pitch. Whether that was because Cousins remained pretty much in front of the two central defenders all game and rarely ventured from that position I don't know, Allen was definitely more disciplined last night and wasn't giving the ball away in front of the central two defenders which he's been prone to do too often.
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Post by nonameface on Dec 11, 2019 19:19:27 GMT
Joe Allen is a very good player. Everyone outside of Stoke can’t believe that he’s still here. We don’t know what we’ve got till it’s gone! Allen plays better for Wales because he’s playing alongside better players. Maybe today, but what about when he was garbage in the premier League with bojan, shaqiri and Marko in front of him? So I don't buy that. Ince, Allen and Butland are all living off their history, but all have been incredibly in effective for some time.
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Post by dastokie on Dec 11, 2019 20:01:00 GMT
Allen plays better for Wales because he’s playing alongside better players. Maybe today, but what about when he was garbage in the premier League with bojan, shaqiri and Marko in front of him? So I don't buy that. Ince, Allen and Butland are all living off their history, but all have been incredibly in effective for some time. What history Ince Blackpool, Derby etc didn't give a toss when he left Butland was at the Blues England had a desperate shortage of quality keepers still do. Allen scouser lived up to their reputation selling a counterfeit footballer for millions.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 11, 2019 20:04:07 GMT
Nobody has said it's solely his job. But he has responsibilities off the ball that he continually neglects and he is the chief offender when it comes to positional indiscipline that causes us to lose our shape. I'm not sure whether last night was a one off and I accept how shit Luton were but Allen seemed less undisciplined. He was clearly playing higher up the pitch and didn't seem to do the 'dog chasing a balloon' routine all over the pitch. Whether that was because Cousins remained pretty much in front of the two central defenders all game and rarely ventured from that position I don't know, Allen was definitely more disciplined last night and wasn't giving the ball away in front of the central two defenders which he's been prone to do too often. He did, however, play a delightful slide rule pass to their centre forward, who was fortunately too shit to capitalise. It was arguably the best and most creative pass he's ever played in a Stoke shirt.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2019 21:47:48 GMT
Nobody has said it's solely his job. But he has responsibilities off the ball that he continually neglects and he is the chief offender when it comes to positional indiscipline that causes us to lose our shape. I'm not sure whether last night was a one off and I accept how shit Luton were but Allen seemed less undisciplined. He was clearly playing higher up the pitch and didn't seem to do the 'dog chasing a balloon' routine all over the pitch. Whether that was because Cousins remained pretty much in front of the two central defenders all game and rarely ventured from that position I don't know, Allen was definitely more disciplined last night and wasn't giving the ball away in front of the central two defenders which he's been prone to do too often. I think a proper DM playing and Luton allowing him oceans of space certainly helped.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Dec 11, 2019 22:15:46 GMT
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Stoke dressing room today listening to the comments in reply to the premise that we only won 3 - 0 last night because the crowd started booing. It was a noticeable change from the team after the booing started that was lead by Joe Allen. It came after a promising attack that Tom Edwards passed it back to Butland and the booing the started and the crowd were just showing frustration. It seemed to wake Allen up in particular who started his dog chasing a balloon impression to good effect and lead to the first goal Cue the players doing the whole cupped ear shit! It kinda confirms to me the players are playing within themselves and not taking enough risks. They have some ability but always take the easy option - Tom Ince being the biggest culprit these days. But when they start on the front foot and harry the opposition we look a lot better. I hope MON takes notice of the change that happened. The crowd didnt win us the game but the players needed to get angry to start performing. They need the odd bollocking to wake them up
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Dec 11, 2019 23:13:47 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 11, 2019 23:20:14 GMT
I agree and would add that all players need to play with players that complement them, it's a team game. At the risk of being criticized again I think one of our issues is that Allen, N'Diaye, and Etebo are similar box to box players. MON seems to prefer playing one of the 3 and 2 other MFs. Allen gets the manager's vote because he get's into goal scoring positions. You can of course argue that so would N'Diaye or Etebo if Allen wasn't there. There s no doubt that managers have favourites, as do fans. Clearly Allen is a favourite of every Stoke manager. Fans who don't like that just have to hope another club comes with a large offer for him in January, but I suspect they are in the minority. We're playing 433 though Cokey - with a holding midfielder. Of the three, who has performed best in that role in your opinion overall? Ndiaye Cousins Woods N'Diaye without a doubt. IMHO But I'm not the manager, I don't see the players in training every week. Some players try hard in training and others don't bother to raise sweat. Some players are committed to the club and some are knocking on the door saying they want to leave. If N'Diaye is behaving like he did in the opening match against Leeds last season, MON will not be impressed.
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 11, 2019 23:26:58 GMT
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Stoke dressing room today listening to the comments in reply to the premise that we only won 3 - 0 last night because the crowd started booing. It was a noticeable change from the team after the booing started that was lead by Joe Allen. It came after a promising attack that Tom Edwards passed it back to Butland and the booing the started and the crowd were just showing frustration. It seemed to wake Allen up in particular who started his dog chasing a balloon impression to good effect and lead to the first goal Cue the players doing the whole cupped ear shit! It kinda confirms to me the players are playing within themselves and not taking enough risks. They have some ability but always take the easy option - Tom Ince being the biggest culprit these days. But when they start on the front foot and harry the opposition we look a lot better. I hope MON takes notice of the change that happened. The crowd didnt win us the game but the players needed to get angry to start performing. They need the odd bollocking to wake them up I don't disagree with any of that but I still say the players will not be impressed by that claim. I'm also convinced the players are not putting in their best effort and haven't since Rowett took over. Time and again under Rowett they did not start playing until 2 or 3 goals down; they weren't playing for the manager they were playing to avoid being thrashed. I agree there could be an element of the opposition taking their foot off the gas when 2 or 3 goals up. There were matches however when they started well and looked good then went to pieces when the opposition scored. Again a lack of character and commitment.
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 11, 2019 23:45:48 GMT
And he’s the top of the dross pile, my opinion and it won’t change. Very good player our Joe and we're very lucky to have him. I suppose we must very lucky that our Joe decides to show us he is a very good player once every 6 months.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2019 23:48:38 GMT
It’s like de ja vue with Jon Walters. Look at the crap he took on this board. Totally unjustified but there we go.
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 11, 2019 23:49:39 GMT
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Stoke dressing room today listening to the comments in reply to the premise that we only won 3 - 0 last night because the crowd started booing. It was a noticeable change from the team after the booing started that was lead by Joe Allen. It came after a promising attack that Tom Edwards passed it back to Butland and the booing the started and the crowd were just showing frustration. It seemed to wake Allen up in particular who started his dog chasing a balloon impression to good effect and lead to the first goal Cue the players doing the whole cupped ear shit! It kinda confirms to me the players are playing within themselves and not taking enough risks. They have some ability but always take the easy option - Tom Ince being the biggest culprit these days. But when they start on the front foot and harry the opposition we look a lot better. I hope MON takes notice of the change that happened. The crowd didnt win us the game but the players needed to get angry to start performing. They need the odd bollocking to wake them up excellent post imho...spot on if it wasn't for the booing they would have been happy to carry on pissing around for 90 minutes. I think it was a bit of a shock for some of them, and the cupped ears proves that to me.
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 11, 2019 23:51:01 GMT
It’s like de ja vue with Jon Walters. Look at the crap he took on this board. Totally unjustified but there we go. rubbish comparison imho Walters made a huge contribution to our success Allen has made a made a huge contribution to our failure. bit of a difference there.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2019 23:56:01 GMT
It’s like de ja vue with Jon Walters. Look at the crap he took on this board. Totally unjustified but there we go. rubbish comparison imho Walters made a huge contribution to our success Allen has made a made a huge contribution to our failure. bit of a difference there. Come off it . Walters was decimated here ‘-Puppy with a balloon ‘ and all that shit, Joe Allen has been a credit to this club both in performance and attitude just as SJW was.
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Post by spitthedog on Dec 12, 2019 0:04:39 GMT
rubbish comparison imho Walters made a huge contribution to our success Allen has made a made a huge contribution to our failure. bit of a difference there. Come off it . Walters was decimated here ‘-Puppy with a balloon ‘ and all that shit, Joe Allen has been a credit to this club both in performance and attitude just as SJW was. Absolutely no comparison. I agree Walters was often slated, that's just about where any similarity ends. Ultimately Walters produced the goods. Allen has been integral to our decline. One good performance every 6 months doesn't cut it. They have got completely contrasting mentality, Walters bust a gut to prove to himself and others that he could cut it at the top level, and found a way to play that was seemingly above his own ability. Allen obviously thinks he's too good for this division. Cupping his ears is the most assertive thing I've ever seen him do on a football pitch. I'd love it if he did what Walters did, and prove his detractors wrong, but there is a hell of a way to go for Allen after the spineless rubbish we have had to endure over the last 3 years.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 12, 2019 0:11:28 GMT
Come off it . Walters was decimated here ‘-Puppy with a balloon ‘ and all that shit, Joe Allen has been a credit to this club both in performance and attitude just as SJW was. Absolutely no comparison. I agree Walters was often slated, that's just about where any similarity ends. Ultimately Walters produced the goods. Allen has been integral to our decline. One good performance every 6 months doesn't cut it. They have got completely contrasting mentality, Walters bust a gut to prove to himself and others that he could cut it at the top level, and found a way to play that was seemingly above his own ability. Allen obviously thinks he's too good for this division. Cupping his ears is the most assertive thing I've ever seen him do on a football pitch. Nobody but nobody puts more honest endeavour into this team than Joe Allen - and hasn’t for the past few years. If we had had a side with his attitude and application we wouldn’t be where we are now. He has produced the goods infinitely more often than you are saying.
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Joe Allen
Dec 12, 2019 0:33:05 GMT
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Dec 12, 2019 0:33:05 GMT
There's so many more in this squad that need going way before Allen, why he gets targeted I don't know???
I'd chose Allen over Woods ANY DAY of the week.....
I'd chose Allen over Clucas ANY DAY of the week.....
I'd chose Allen over Cousins ANY DAY of the week.....
In fact, if we are to go with a 3 man midfield, for me it's got to be N'diaye, Etebo and Allen!!! But that doesn't look like it's likely to happen!!!
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Joe Allen
Dec 12, 2019 0:56:21 GMT
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Post by StatesideStokie on Dec 12, 2019 0:56:21 GMT
It’s like de ja vue with Jon Walters. Look at the crap he took on this board. Totally unjustified but there we go. rubbish comparison imho Walters made a huge contribution to our success Allen has made a made a huge contribution to our failure. bit of a difference there. You’re seriously comparing Joe Allen’s contribution to that if Jon Walters? Allen isn’t even in the same stratosphere as Walters. Not even close.
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