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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 23, 2019 13:22:21 GMT
The thing about bringing in guys of similar character is they they have to earn the respect of the people already in the dressing room. That can go either way. Whelan and Walters were there already, part of the furniture, and they were not to be fucked with. But both were long past their sell-by date on the pitch. And neither was happy with a bit part role. They wanted to play. We got a great fee for Walters in particular given he barely played for Burnley.
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Post by march4 on Nov 23, 2019 13:23:25 GMT
Something else that is becoming apparent is that Shaqiri was a part of the reason we were relegated.
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Post by banksisgod on Nov 23, 2019 13:42:05 GMT
Sure, on the face of it, the money the club got for Walters looked like great business, but we can't put a true value on what it cost us in the end. Anyway, he's back now, and hopefully his influence around the place will be recognised quickly by O'Neill.
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Post by skip on Nov 23, 2019 13:53:00 GMT
Something else that is becoming apparent is that Shaqiri was a part of the reason we were relegated. As Crouch alluded to, in part he probably was, but there was a player who has spent the vast majority of his adult life on the cusp of greatness and I'm convinced that some players lack of experience of grit and bones battling simply isn't in their skill set. Having a squad that balances graft and grace in equal measure is really difficult but sure as hell Hughes got it massively wrong at the end. p.s. Excellent article, many thanks to Jezza for posting.
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Post by nonameface on Nov 23, 2019 14:38:49 GMT
Good article are peoples attention spans so poor as that counts as a long read these days ? Can someone give me a brief explanation of what redstriper said after 'Good article'? That was all he wrote.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 23, 2019 14:45:44 GMT
Sure, on the face of it, the money the club got for Walters looked like great business, but we can't put a true value on what it cost us in the end. Anyway, he's back now, and hopefully his influence around the place will be recognised quickly by O'Neill. I don’t understand. He wasn’t going to play here, was he? And he wanted to go somewhere where he was. Had he stayed he: A) Wouldn’t have been in the team every week and thus would’ve been one of the disgruntled and B) Was almost always injured anyway?
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Post by banksisgod on Nov 23, 2019 15:00:48 GMT
You make a perfectly fair point. However, at 33/34 I'm not sure he would have expected to be an ever-present in the team before he got injured.
We're sort of splitting hairs now. Let's just agree that his return to the club is very welcome.
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Post by starkiller on Nov 23, 2019 16:43:44 GMT
Absolutely piss-poor from those running the club.
And we could all see it.
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Post by Not_Nick_H on Nov 25, 2019 16:10:55 GMT
Who removed the win bonuses? Bad decision! Good question. Basic psychology - it's not the money in itself, but the fact that you're being rewarded for behaviour that's crucial if you want to bring about a change.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Nov 25, 2019 18:36:57 GMT
Who removed the win bonuses? Bad decision! Good question. Basic psychology - it's not the money in itself, but the fact that you're being rewarded for behaviour that's crucial if you want to bring about a change. Well one man is paid to run the club buck stops their or should
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Post by markby on Nov 25, 2019 23:38:10 GMT
Please, Please, please, let MON be the catalyst for our transformation into an effective unit! I once got to speak to the CEO at the IFA, Patrick Nelson. Though he's hardly stood out in that role, he was involved in football before he joined us, and was a business executive before that (Mastercard?).
His comment which really stood out was that of all the managers he knew from football, Michael was the first he'd met who could easily do his own job (CEO), or take up a position on the Board.
And tbf to Nelson, after the SFA had done everything in their power to persuade him to join them, the IFA then offered Michael a greatly enhanced new contract, with the additional responsibility of Chief Football Officer.
Tbh, a lot of NI fans assumed this was just a "job" created in order to justify doubling Michael's wages, but not a bit of it. Michael took his job extremely seriously, attending matches, meetings and events at every level up from schoolboys, to the underage international teams, to the womens game, to the local (part-time) Irish League. In particular, he did amazing work in creating a "pathway" to the professional game in GB via "Club NI". (Unlike eg Lawrie Sanchez at NI, or Martin O'Neill at ROI, who were only interested in the senior mens team).
He is also highly intelligent, excelling academically at one of NI's leading grammar school before joining Newcastle. (Useful for keeping up with his new teammate, Gazza! ) He then studied for an Open University qualification while at Dundee Utd and when he retired from playing, he qualified as an Independent Financial Adviser with Ernst & Young to keep his family, before being persuaded back into the game part-time at Cowdenbeath by an old teammate.
And I think I read that he is currently studying for a post-grad qualification (MSC?) in Sports Administration, or somesuch.
None of which guarantees he'll turn things round at Stoke (obv), but I genuinely can't think of a better candidate whom you were likely to attract.
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Post by skip on Nov 26, 2019 0:38:23 GMT
Please, Please, please, let MON be the catalyst for our transformation into an effective unit! I once got to speak to the CEO at the IFA, Patrick Nelson. Though he's hardly stood out in that role, he was involved in football before he joined us, and was a business executive before that (Mastercard?). His comment which really stood out was that of all the managers he knew from football, Michael was the first he'd met who could easily do his own job (CEO), or take up a position on the Board. And tbf to Nelson, after the SFA had done everything in their power to persuade him to join them, the IFA then offered Michael a greatly enhanced new contract, with the additional responsibility of Chief Football Officer. Tbh, a lot of NI fans assumed this was just a "job" created in order to justify doubling Michael's wages, but not a bit of it. Michael took his job extremely seriously, attending matches, meetings and events at every level up from schoolboys, to the underage international teams, to the womens game, to the local (part-time) Irish League. In particular, he did amazing work in creating a "pathway" to the professional game in GB via "Club NI". (Unlike eg Lawrie Sanchez at NI, or Martin O'Neill at ROI, who were only interested in the senior mens team). He is also highly intelligent, excelling academically at one of NI's leading grammar school before joining Newcastle. (Useful for keeping up with his new teammate, Gazza! ) He then studied for an Open University qualification while at Dundee Utd and when he retired from playing, he qualified as an Independent Financial Adviser with Ernst & Young to keep his family, before being persuaded back into the game part-time at Cowdenbeath by an old teammate. And I think I read that he is currently studying for a post-grad qualification (MSC?) in Sports Administration, or somesuch. None of which guarantees he'll turn things round at Stoke (obv), but I genuinely can't think of a better candidate whom you were likely to attract.
All super fascinating and insightful thank you. Can I ask how you knew/know MoN? Or how you got to speak to CEO IFA?
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Post by clarkeda on Nov 26, 2019 7:26:58 GMT
I'd be very interested to know at which point during the summer of 2016 did this supposed bid from Juventus for Imbula come in. And how much it was, surely there’s no way we’d turn it down as that’s what that model was about. Buying players in and moving them on for profit.
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Post by Goonie on Nov 26, 2019 8:06:23 GMT
I'd be very interested to know at which point during the summer of 2016 did this supposed bid from Juventus for Imbula come in. And how much it was, surely there’s no way we’d turn it down as that’s what that model was about. Buying players in and moving them on for profit. Interestingly we used to be seen as a selling club and now we seem a loaning/giving away club Frightening how little value some of our big acquisitions hold now (Wimmer et al)
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Nov 26, 2019 9:38:55 GMT
Please, Please, please, let MON be the catalyst for our transformation into an effective unit! I once got to speak to the CEO at the IFA, Patrick Nelson. Though he's hardly stood out in that role, he was involved in football before he joined us, and was a business executive before that (Mastercard?). His comment which really stood out was that of all the managers he knew from football, Michael was the first he'd met who could easily do his own job (CEO), or take up a position on the Board. And tbf to Nelson, after the SFA had done everything in their power to persuade him to join them, the IFA then offered Michael a greatly enhanced new contract, with the additional responsibility of Chief Football Officer. Tbh, a lot of NI fans assumed this was just a "job" created in order to justify doubling Michael's wages, but not a bit of it. Michael took his job extremely seriously, attending matches, meetings and events at every level up from schoolboys, to the underage international teams, to the womens game, to the local (part-time) Irish League. In particular, he did amazing work in creating a "pathway" to the professional game in GB via "Club NI". (Unlike eg Lawrie Sanchez at NI, or Martin O'Neill at ROI, who were only interested in the senior mens team). He is also highly intelligent, excelling academically at one of NI's leading grammar school before joining Newcastle. (Useful for keeping up with his new teammate, Gazza! ) He then studied for an Open University qualification while at Dundee Utd and when he retired from playing, he qualified as an Independent Financial Adviser with Ernst & Young to keep his family, before being persuaded back into the game part-time at Cowdenbeath by an old teammate. And I think I read that he is currently studying for a post-grad qualification (MSC?) in Sports Administration, or somesuch. None of which guarantees he'll turn things round at Stoke (obv), but I genuinely can't think of a better candidate whom you were likely to attract.
From the sounds of that,if things go well there is potentially a very natural long term progression from manager to Technical Director (overseeing utterly everything on the football side,) to,eventually,CEO at our club for him,with the likes of Walters (if he shows a real aptitude for coaching/management,)succeeding MON as he moves 'upstairs.'
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Post by markby on Nov 26, 2019 12:49:59 GMT
I once got to speak to the CEO at the IFA, Patrick Nelson. Though he's hardly stood out in that role, he was involved in football before he joined us, and was a business executive before that (Mastercard?). His comment which really stood out was that of all the managers he knew from football, Michael was the first he'd met who could easily do his own job (CEO), or take up a position on the Board. And tbf to Nelson, after the SFA had done everything in their power to persuade him to join them, the IFA then offered Michael a greatly enhanced new contract, with the additional responsibility of Chief Football Officer. Tbh, a lot of NI fans assumed this was just a "job" created in order to justify doubling Michael's wages, but not a bit of it. Michael took his job extremely seriously, attending matches, meetings and events at every level up from schoolboys, to the underage international teams, to the womens game, to the local (part-time) Irish League. In particular, he did amazing work in creating a "pathway" to the professional game in GB via "Club NI". (Unlike eg Lawrie Sanchez at NI, or Martin O'Neill at ROI, who were only interested in the senior mens team). He is also highly intelligent, excelling academically at one of NI's leading grammar school before joining Newcastle. (Useful for keeping up with his new teammate, Gazza! ) He then studied for an Open University qualification while at Dundee Utd and when he retired from playing, he qualified as an Independent Financial Adviser with Ernst & Young to keep his family, before being persuaded back into the game part-time at Cowdenbeath by an old teammate. And I think I read that he is currently studying for a post-grad qualification (MSC?) in Sports Administration, or somesuch. None of which guarantees he'll turn things round at Stoke (obv), but I genuinely can't think of a better candidate whom you were likely to attract.
All super fascinating and insightful thank you. Can I ask how you knew/know MoN? Or how you got to speak to CEO IFA? I was invited as one of a number of NI fans to a Business Presentation that Nelson was giving, and got to speak to him personally afterwards.
As for Michael, he regularly attended various fans and media events in his time, he's very open and besides, everyone knows everyone else in NI.
I mean, we don't call it "Our Wee Country" for nothing!
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Post by markby on Nov 26, 2019 13:16:32 GMT
I once got to speak to the CEO at the IFA, Patrick Nelson. Though he's hardly stood out in that role, he was involved in football before he joined us, and was a business executive before that (Mastercard?). His comment which really stood out was that of all the managers he knew from football, Michael was the first he'd met who could easily do his own job (CEO), or take up a position on the Board. And tbf to Nelson, after the SFA had done everything in their power to persuade him to join them, the IFA then offered Michael a greatly enhanced new contract, with the additional responsibility of Chief Football Officer. Tbh, a lot of NI fans assumed this was just a "job" created in order to justify doubling Michael's wages, but not a bit of it. Michael took his job extremely seriously, attending matches, meetings and events at every level up from schoolboys, to the underage international teams, to the womens game, to the local (part-time) Irish League. In particular, he did amazing work in creating a "pathway" to the professional game in GB via "Club NI". (Unlike eg Lawrie Sanchez at NI, or Martin O'Neill at ROI, who were only interested in the senior mens team). He is also highly intelligent, excelling academically at one of NI's leading grammar school before joining Newcastle. (Useful for keeping up with his new teammate, Gazza! ) He then studied for an Open University qualification while at Dundee Utd and when he retired from playing, he qualified as an Independent Financial Adviser with Ernst & Young to keep his family, before being persuaded back into the game part-time at Cowdenbeath by an old teammate. And I think I read that he is currently studying for a post-grad qualification (MSC?) in Sports Administration, or somesuch. None of which guarantees he'll turn things round at Stoke (obv), but I genuinely can't think of a better candidate whom you were likely to attract.
From the sounds of that,if things go well there is potentially a very natural long term progression from manager to Technical Director (overseeing utterly everything on the football side,) to,eventually,CEO at our club for him,with the likes of Walters (if he shows a real aptitude for coaching/management,)succeeding MON as he moves 'upstairs.' Possibly, though my own guess (no more than that) is that having recently turned 50, he now wants to maximise his Coaching career while he's still got the time and energy (also his daughters may now be just about old enough not to need their Da around quite so much?).
I presume he's identified Stoke as a good entry/opportunity into the English game, having rejected a number of other club options in recent years. But if he should turn out to be the success we all hope he will be (never guaranteed, of course), then I could see him spending maybe 3 years at Stoke, turning you around and getting you promoted, which would then put him in the shop window for a really big English club (no offence), or even go somewhere on the Continent? Which would still leave him with plenty of time to move to the next stage of his career in a Directorial or Administrative capacity in a decade or so, whether with a club or an Association, maybe even UEFA or FIFA? And if it doesn't work out coaching in England, he must know there'll always be a job for him in Scotland somewhere, or back at the IFA.
I'm no psychologist, but I suspect that never having made the most of his ability as a player, for whatever reason, he is determined not to make any rash steps in his post-playing career, since he appreciates how it can all easily go wrong, despite his talent and best efforts. And he's also intelligent and secure enough to think beyond his next game/club/contract, unlike many other managers.
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Post by elystokie on Nov 26, 2019 13:41:07 GMT
From the sounds of that,if things go well there is potentially a very natural long term progression from manager to Technical Director (overseeing utterly everything on the football side,) to,eventually,CEO at our club for him,with the likes of Walters (if he shows a real aptitude for coaching/management,)succeeding MON as he moves 'upstairs.' Possibly, though my own guess (no more than that) is that having recently turned 50, he now wants to maximise his Coaching career while he's still got the time and energy (also his daughters may now be just about old enough not to need their Da around quite so much?).
I presume he's identified Stoke as a good entry/opportunity into the English game, having rejected a number of other club options in recent years. But if he should turn out to be the success we all hope he will be (never guaranteed, of course), then I could see him spending maybe 3 years at Stoke, turning you around and getting you promoted, which would then put him in the shop window for a really big English club (no offence), or even go somewhere on the Continent? Which would still leave him with plenty of time to move to the next stage of his career in a Directorial or Administrative capacity in a decade or so, whether with a club or an Association, maybe even UEFA or FIFA? And if it doesn't work out coaching in England, he must know there'll always be a job for him in Scotland somewhere, or back at the IFA. I'm no psychologist, but I suspect that never having made the most of his ability as a player, for whatever reason, he is determined not to make any rash steps in his post-playing career, since he appreciates how it can all easily go wrong, despite his talent and best efforts. And he's also intelligent and secure enough to think beyond his next game/club/contract, unlike many other managers.
Nah, he'll fall in love with oatcakes and lobby and take us to the Champions League, I can feel it in me water Thanks for your insights by the way, much appreciated.
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Post by skeelsy on Nov 26, 2019 15:06:31 GMT
A brilliant article. It was one thing taking a chance and paying large fees for players with suspect character it was another thing entirely in awarding those players five and a half year contracts. The ineptitude of management at our club has been quite staggering.
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Post by GoBoks on Nov 26, 2019 16:11:51 GMT
All super fascinating and insightful thank you. Can I ask how you knew/know MoN? Or how you got to speak to CEO IFA? I was invited as one of a number of NI fans to a Business Presentation that Nelson was giving, and got to speak to him personally afterwards. As for Michael, he regularly attended various fans and media events in his time, he's very open and besides, everyone knows everyone else in NI. I mean, we don't call it "Our Wee Country" for nothing!
Welcome to the Stokie Family! I trust you'll enjoy your stay as we rocket back up the league!
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Post by thegrassyknoll on Nov 26, 2019 19:02:26 GMT
A really good insight into a club's demise. However, it has not adequately explored the difficulties which SCFC will face in 2020.
Perhaps the author didn't want to depress you lot too much in one hit. =================
" On top of that they have spent more than £60 million on 20 players across the last three windows, and O’Neill has already been told he will be able to make more signings in January. How things pan out on and off the pitch over the next 18 months will be fascinating to watch. Stoke know that if they fail to win promotion, they face a huge challenge to comply with the EFL’s profit and sustainability rules, which stipulate that clubs are not permitted to make losses of more than £39 million over a three-year period.
Stoke have yet to post their financial results for their first campaign in the Championship but it is hard to believe the numbers will make for good reading. They recorded a pre-tax loss of £30.1 million for their last season in the Premier League." ===================
Although I expect SCFC to avoid relegation with some ease, that could be the least of your problems, as FFP looms.
If MON adds to the deficit in January, the future looks very bleak imo.
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