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Post by hyaduck on Oct 8, 2019 10:29:03 GMT
Nothing more pisses me off than passing back to the keeper especially when it’s totally unnecessary. Last season and this has been quite common, we break, get over the half way line, stop, turn around and pass back to the keeper. Saturday was the first game for as far as I can remember that we didn’t do it at every opportunity. It happened a couple of times but more often than not we kept on pressing into their half and long may it continue.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 8, 2019 10:41:31 GMT
We pass around the back and to the keeper because our centre-backs have traditionally lacked the passing range to reach the midfield on the half turn to start an attack meaning we end up going backwards before a big punt out upfield.
The difference for me is that we played an exceptional ball-playing centre-back in Cameron Carter-Vickers against Swansea who is capable of actually passing progressively. He stood out for Swansea in that role last year and is doing so again for us in in that respect.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 10:49:27 GMT
The difference is Ndiaye.
He has the ability to take the ball,turn,hold off an attacker and move forward or find a forward pass
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Post by chigstoke on Oct 8, 2019 11:00:20 GMT
The difference is Ndiaye. He has the ability to take the ball,turn,hold off an attacker and move forward or find a forward pass NDiaye seems to have the strength of 10000 suns, and was only stopped by a German Suplex by the Swans player.
Mustard. Absolute mustard.
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Post by chumley on Oct 8, 2019 11:00:24 GMT
I hate all this and Butland doesn't look comfortable to em, it's only a matter of time before we cock one up.
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Post by Little Gary Patel on Oct 8, 2019 11:06:07 GMT
yeah, knock it long and hit the big man. PROPER FOOTBALL
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Post by hyaduck on Oct 8, 2019 11:10:32 GMT
Ndiaye is a massive difference, his strength and ability on the ball is incredible. Before Saturday’s game where Ndiaye was playing we were still doing it which not only breaks down a possible goal opportunity but puts us under pressure. The team on Saturday looked so comfortable even after that dreadful start, the question is whether he’ll keep the same team after the international break, that could potentially decide his future with us.
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Post by Ryan_Shawjosh on Oct 8, 2019 11:12:23 GMT
The whole point is to try to draw out a gap in the other team, it's not for no reason. I'd prefer that than giving it away poorly trying to rush a chance and getting caught on the counter.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 8, 2019 11:16:24 GMT
The whole point is to try to draw out a gap in the other team, it's not for no reason. I'd prefer that than giving it away poorly trying to rush a chance and getting caught on the counter. It's also open to massive confirmation bias when you fuck it up, guarantee you'll see every time it results in a goal against but not when ball retention leads to a goal. |
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Post by chigstoke on Oct 8, 2019 11:31:35 GMT
One of the best examples I can think of us using it to our advantage was the amazing goal we scored in the 4-1 win at Villa Park.
Sensible passing in the back, slowly getting it to the midfield and once the gap opened, Arnie was there to carry on the attack.
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Post by femark on Oct 8, 2019 11:41:25 GMT
Nothing more pisses me off than when fans whinge and boo passing back to the keeper. In possession based football it is a necessary evil. When there is nothing on going forward and you are being closed down, you have to pass to the keeper to relieve pressure and start again.
If the player was to lump it to the big lad and we lost the ball the fans would moan even more. |
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Post by dirtygary69 on Oct 8, 2019 11:42:54 GMT
Grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 11:47:45 GMT
Nothing more pisses me off than when fans whinge and boo passing back to the keeper. In possession based football it is a necessary evil. When there is nothing on going forward and you are being closed down, you have to pass to the keeper to relieve pressure and start again.
If the player was to lump it to the big lad and we lost the ball the fans would moan even more. Yes but half the time it's the keeper lumping it and we lose possession anyway |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 12:12:29 GMT
Ndiaye is a massive difference, his strength and ability on the ball is incredible. Before Saturday’s game where Ndiaye was playing we were still doing it which not only breaks down a possible goal opportunity but puts us under pressure. The team on Saturday looked so comfortable even after that dreadful start, the question is whether he’ll keep the same team after the international break, that could potentially decide his future with us. Imagine what would happen if we played him in his proper position, which is - almost everywhere - box to box. He would probably get us some goals, 8-10 per season if he was to stay. Instead he has to protect our defence, which admittedly is much needed. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Oct 8, 2019 12:19:53 GMT
A lot of the time there's no movement in front of the man with the ball. So to keep it they are forced back
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Post by femark on Oct 8, 2019 12:51:03 GMT
Nothing more pisses me off than when fans whinge and boo passing back to the keeper. In possession based football it is a necessary evil. When there is nothing on going forward and you are being closed down, you have to pass to the keeper to relieve pressure and start again.
If the player was to lump it to the big lad and we lost the ball the fans would moan even more. Yes but half the time it's the keeper lumping it and we lose possession anyway So the issue is not passing it back to the keeper but the keepers distribution? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 13:13:08 GMT
Yes but half the time it's the keeper lumping it and we lose possession anyway So the issue is not passing it back to the keeper but the keepers distribution? Doesn't matter who the keeper is, it's a general football thing,the ball is usually passed back to the keeper when the defence is being closed down so the keeper is under pressure and just launches it....a completely different scenario to when the keeper is acting as a surplus defender a la Man C, Liverpool etc |
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Post by leicspotter on Oct 8, 2019 13:13:27 GMT
A lot of the time there's no movement in front of the man with the ball. So to keep it they are forced back This. Our lack of movement up front has been an issue for at least 3 seasons now...you can have the worlds best passers in midfield, or at the back, but if the forwards don't 'show' then it counts for nowt  |
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Post by nott1 on Oct 8, 2019 13:15:14 GMT
Ndiaye is a massive difference, his strength and ability on the ball is incredible. Before Saturday’s game where Ndiaye was playing we were still doing it which not only breaks down a possible goal opportunity but puts us under pressure. The team on Saturday looked so comfortable even after that dreadful start, the question is whether he’ll keep the same team after the international break, that could potentially decide his future with us. Imagine what would happen if we played him in his proper position, which is - almost everywhere - box to box. He would probably get us some goals, 8-10 per season if he was to stay. Instead he has to protect our defence, which admittedly is much needed. He'll be off as soon as he's noticed by bigger clubs which could be January. He must be on the radar by now, sorry to say! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 13:21:20 GMT
The whole point is to try to draw out a gap in the other team, it's not for no reason. I'd prefer that than giving it away poorly trying to rush a chance and getting caught on the counter. It's also open to massive confirmation bias when you fuck it up, guarantee you'll see every time it results in a goal against but not when ball retention leads to a goal. Spurs at home under Hughes,long back pass,fans boo,keeper hoofs it,headed on,back of net |
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Post by thehoof on Oct 8, 2019 13:38:45 GMT
The whole point is to try to draw out a gap in the other team, it's not for no reason. I'd prefer that than giving it away poorly trying to rush a chance and getting caught on the counter. It's also open to massive confirmation bias when you fuck it up, guarantee you'll see every time it results in a goal against but not when ball retention leads to a goal. But that is because far more goals are conceded by teams trying to play out from the back than are actually scored by moves emanating from the goalkeeper starting the move. I’m not advocating hoofing, but England’s goal against Spain was counted as playing out from the back when Pickford launched it 50 yards for Kane to lay off and Sterling to finish. Even teams with decent footballers, Man C , Spurs, Liverpool have conceded playing out from the back this season, but I am not aware of any of them scoring more than the odd goal which start with a 10 yard pass from the Goalie. |
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Post by damagedswan on Oct 8, 2019 14:09:15 GMT
It's also open to massive confirmation bias when you fuck it up, guarantee you'll see every time it results in a goal against but not when ball retention leads to a goal. But that is because far more goals are conceded by teams trying to play out from the back than are actually scored by moves emanating from the goalkeeper starting the move. I’m not advocating hoofing, but England’s goal against Spain was counted as playing out from the back when Pickford launched it 50 yards for Kane to lay off and Sterling to finish. Even teams with decent footballers, Man C , Spurs, Liverpool have conceded playing out from the back this season, but I am not aware of any of them scoring more than the odd goal which start with a 10 yard pass from the Goalie. 'The odd goal' a season is already more than the very, very rare occasions that those teams concede in these kind of situations. But in any case, it's not about scoring a goal directly from a move started by the keeper, it's about maximising the probability that you will keep possession of the ball. Keeping the ball in turn maximises your probability of advancing up the pitch with the ball under control (note: not just knocking the ball around the back for no reason). A team may of course lose the ball further up the pitch when they have to try more difficult passes in order to work their way through larger numbers of opposition defenders - but in that situation they will be in a much stronger position to win the ball back, with multiple players likely to be close to the ball and able to surround the opposition player, as opposed to the 1v1 battle of an aerial battle brought about by sending it long. |
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Post by pez75 on Oct 8, 2019 14:24:09 GMT
Anything that ain't hoofing is ok by me
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 8, 2019 14:55:48 GMT
It's also open to massive confirmation bias when you fuck it up, guarantee you'll see every time it results in a goal against but not when ball retention leads to a goal. But that is because far more goals are conceded by teams trying to play out from the back than are actually scored by moves emanating from the goalkeeper starting the move. I’m not advocating hoofing, but England’s goal against Spain was counted as playing out from the back when Pickford launched it 50 yards for Kane to lay off and Sterling to finish. Even teams with decent footballers, Man C , Spurs, Liverpool have conceded playing out from the back this season, but I am not aware of any of them scoring more than the odd goal which start with a 10 yard pass from the Goalie. Of course there are inherent risks involved, but if you get it right it provides you with a fantastic springboard to disarm the low block of teams sitting back against you. It's not meant to produce a goal every time you do it, it's gradually pulling teams out of position by stretching their defensive shape and isolating/tiring their forwards by drawing them in. There's a reason the best teams, best managers and best systems all have a ball playing keeper. That's not to say it's not faultless and do it incorrectly you'll get caught out. But Ederson completes around 50 passes a game for a keeper, and often more than anyone else in the opposition. As did Kiko Casilla for Leeds in their 3-0 win over us, they tore us to shreds by dismantling our press with short accurate passing around the back. But as none of these resulted in a goal, it won't make the highlights, but a big part of them disrupting our shape was this tactic. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2019 15:09:21 GMT
Imagine what would happen if we played him in his proper position, which is - almost everywhere - box to box. He would probably get us some goals, 8-10 per season if he was to stay. Instead he has to protect our defence, which admittedly is much needed. He'll be off as soon as he's noticed by bigger clubs which could be January. He must be on the radar by now, sorry to say! He already is. He's been since before he joined us. But we were the only club willing to pay £14M and since then no other club has been willing to go anywhere near that sum for a player who's not getting any younger. |
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Post by somersetstokie on Oct 8, 2019 20:38:50 GMT
I think the principle behind passing back is to give the goalkeeper an occasional touch/feel of the ball to keep his hand in, so when he is called into action the ball isn't a proverbial stranger to him. If the keepers weren't allowed this chance to familiarize themselves with the weight and pressure of the ball they might find themselves repeatedly making stupid mistakes such as dropping the ball or throwing it into their own net when it really mattered. OH.  |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 8, 2019 20:44:23 GMT
for me it is midfield players passing the buck. Easier to keep the ball and pass it backwards.
Those saying its not hoofing are completely wrong because the goalkeeper inevitably is under pressure and has to hoof it himself.
Its the opposite of possession football.
Midfielders need to take some responsibility and look for a pass. I dont mind if defenders do it because its not their job to create chances. But midfielders going backwards are just not footballers
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Post by hyaduck on Oct 9, 2019 0:21:05 GMT
It comes down to a lack of movement from defence, midfield and attack. There was plenty of movement all over the pitch on Saturday which kept the ball flowing instead of stop and go backwards.
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Post by leicspotter on Oct 9, 2019 8:48:00 GMT
Whichever system and style teams want to play there should also be an element of 'common sense' that says sometimes row z IS the option.
Take the last England international where the defenders tried to play out and gifted the opposition a goal...there were chances to clear the ball but they stuck rigidly to the 'plan' and came unstuck.
Now I accept that the average footballer is no mastermind, but surely they can make better decisions under pressure?
Equally, when going forward, there is nothing wrong with a long pass that catches the opposition out...ask Glen Hoddle, David Beckham or Jamie Vardy...as long as your own forwards are alert enough, and quick enough, to take advantage. A 'system' needs to have some flexibility to allow players to express themselves and do things that the opponents aren't expecting.
I think one of the main criticisms aimed at Tony Pulis was the rigidity of his system, and especially the "cage", but even then, with the likes of Ricardo Fuller and Matty Etherington, there were players who stepped out of the system and showed us all just what the game is all about
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 9, 2019 9:38:32 GMT
Whichever system and style teams want to play there should also be an element of 'common sense' that says sometimes row z IS the option. Take the last England international where the defenders tried to play out and gifted the opposition a goal...there were chances to clear the ball but they stuck rigidly to the 'plan' and came unstuck. Now I accept that the average footballer is no mastermind, but surely they can make better decisions under pressure? Equally, when going forward, there is nothing wrong with a long pass that catches the opposition out...ask Glen Hoddle, David Beckham or Jamie Vardy...as long as your own forwards are alert enough, and quick enough, to take advantage. A 'system' needs to have some flexibility to allow players to express themselves and do things that the opponents aren't expecting. I think one of the main criticisms aimed at Tony Pulis was the rigidity of his system, and especially the "cage", but even then, with the likes of Ricardo Fuller and Matty Etherington, there were players who stepped out of the system and showed us all just what the game is all about Yep, pretty much this. Ederson got a few assists last season launching a long ball after they'd kept it at the back for a minute or two. Especially when those teams abandoned their low block to try and press the ball. England's problems I think stem from the fact this is probably the last generation of England defenders who won't be naturally good at handling the ball and naturally trying to play this way doesn't come naturally to them. I also think English football culture dictates that defenders should only defend when most successful nations defend from the front and midfield and launch attacks from the back. I still think we're too segmented as a national side. |
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