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Post by somersetstokie on Sept 17, 2019 23:41:20 GMT
Quote: It's a ticking time bomb. A similar one buried even the mighty Leeds United for 30 years.
Interesting parallel. Has John Coates got a Peter Ridsdale type Aquarium in his office?
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Post by somersetstokie on Sept 17, 2019 23:53:47 GMT
The ironic thing about having so many financial issues around the club that you have no option but to go bust, is the upside if you get through it and come out the other end.
Everybody suddenly then either loves you or feels sorry for you, and other clubs that you have no particular links with start to lend you young players of the quality and potential of Verlinden.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Sept 18, 2019 7:31:17 GMT
It’s worth nothing think of this way even if you paid £1 for it and the owners write off the £150m loans you’ve just bought a business with Less than £10m turnover in terms of sustainable earnings and a wage bill well in excess of that so before funding transfers you’ve double digit millions to find per year . Given we were earning £110 m a year from tv the alleged bean counter has made a utter fuck if that too . You make a good point that paying even £1 for a loss making machine would be pure folly. But I have a question for any experts in football finance and FFP. Could the present owners write off our circa £200 million of debt if they wanted to? I don't see how FFP would allow that. It would fly in the face of the intention of FFP that you can't simply go out and buy a route back to success, or even try unsuccessfully to do that as we have. I know I keep on about this but, try as I might, I can't see how we are anything other than financially fucked going forwards, only propped up, temporarily at least, by the present owners decision to cover out debt by a share issue. It's a ticking time bomb. A similar one buried even the mighty Leeds United for 30 years. Gods precedent says it can be written off see Eddie Davis at Bolton or Sunderland Elliott short , but given it’s I believe interest free it has no bearing on profitability or viability and therefore makes no difference in FFP terms to the £35m hurdle . indeed those suggestion change need to understand any leverage would make things a lot lot harder so not only do you need a lot of money you need to do it as equity or interest free stsnd to be corrected but that’s how I’d see it .
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Sept 18, 2019 7:32:15 GMT
Quote: It's a ticking time bomb. A similar one buried even the mighty Leeds United for 30 years. Interesting parallel. Has John Coates got a Peter Ridsdale type Aquarium in his office? Completely different Leeds were leveraged by financial institutions whose only interest was commercial terms
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Sept 18, 2019 7:34:28 GMT
The ironic thing about having so many financial issues around the club that you have no option but to go bust, is the upside if you get through it and come out the other end. Everybody suddenly then either loves you or feels sorry for you, and other clubs that you have no particular links with start to lend you young players of the quality and potential of Verlinden. We won’t go bust as a fully owned subsidiary of 365 we are in a very different situation that those hung by commercial debt buy the good grace of the owning co and more pertinently it’s directors
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Post by Gods on Sept 18, 2019 8:16:38 GMT
You make a good point that paying even £1 for a loss making machine would be pure folly. But I have a question for any experts in football finance and FFP. Could the present owners write off our circa £200 million of debt if they wanted to? I don't see how FFP would allow that. It would fly in the face of the intention of FFP that you can't simply go out and buy a route back to success, or even try unsuccessfully to do that as we have. I know I keep on about this but, try as I might, I can't see how we are anything other than financially fucked going forwards, only propped up, temporarily at least, by the present owners decision to cover out debt by a share issue. It's a ticking time bomb. A similar one buried even the mighty Leeds United for 30 years. Gods precedent says it can be written off see Eddie Davis at Bolton or Sunderland Elliott short , but given it’s I believe interest free it has no bearing on profitability or viability and therefore makes no difference in FFP terms to the £35m hurdle . indeed those suggestion change need to understand any leverage would make things a lot lot harder so not only do you need a lot of money you need to do it as equity or interest free stsnd to be corrected but that’s how I’d see it . That makes sense to me, since the debt was incurred without breaking FFP rules it can be paid off by a benefactor, should one wish to do so of course, which is another question altogether.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Sept 18, 2019 8:50:03 GMT
Gods precedent says it can be written off see Eddie Davis at Bolton or Sunderland Elliott short , but given it’s I believe interest free it has no bearing on profitability or viability and therefore makes no difference in FFP terms to the £35m hurdle . indeed those suggestion change need to understand any leverage would make things a lot lot harder so not only do you need a lot of money you need to do it as equity or interest free stsnd to be corrected but that’s how I’d see it . That makes sense to me, since the debt was incurred without breaking FFP rules it can be paid off by a benefactor, should one wish to do so of course, which is another question altogether. Or be written off but as you say different thing to actually to do it
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Post by peekay67 on Sept 18, 2019 10:17:28 GMT
Free to good home.
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Post by dreamtheater on Sept 18, 2019 12:39:12 GMT
Right now ?
at least thirty quid I should say
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Post by basingstokie on Sept 18, 2019 14:03:13 GMT
Value whatever that is plus debt to Coates family so at least £200m Yes I guess it would be free to anyone willing to take on our debt. Which would be no one because there is no way of paying it off. With our current revenue and outgoings it will simply continue to rise. It's our biggest problem now IMHO, far bigger than our awful league form. The usual accounting way would be for the Coates family to convert their loans (which is club debt) into equity and then the club can be acquired free of debt. I can't remember (& CBA to check) what the current debt level is, but I would hazard a guess the club is probably worth less than the debt level - prem TV money is running out, we still have some expensive contracts on our books and we are looking increasingly likely to be league 1 next season.
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Post by Gods on Sept 18, 2019 14:18:07 GMT
Yes I guess it would be free to anyone willing to take on our debt. Which would be no one because there is no way of paying it off. With our current revenue and outgoings it will simply continue to rise. It's our biggest problem now IMHO, far bigger than our awful league form. The usual accounting way would be for the Coates family to convert their loans (which is club debt) into equity and then the club can be acquired free of debt. I can't remember (& CBA to check) what the current debt level is, but I would hazard a guess the club is probably worth less than the debt level - prem TV money is running out, we still have some expensive contracts on our books and we are looking increasingly likely to be league 1 next season. Thanks for that clarification. I recall the debt was £150 million prior to the Rowett splurge last summer and us treating Nathan to a whole new team this summer, it must surely be circa £200 million now and counting.
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Post by stokesupporter on Sept 18, 2019 17:25:02 GMT
One's sanity.
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Post by greenstokie on Sept 18, 2019 17:30:06 GMT
Wouldn't it be great if we were owned by a billionaire?
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Sept 18, 2019 17:47:32 GMT
musik You've won the Euro lottery?
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Post by basingstokie on Sept 18, 2019 19:14:37 GMT
The usual accounting way would be for the Coates family to convert their loans (which is club debt) into equity and then the club can be acquired free of debt. I can't remember (& CBA to check) what the current debt level is, but I would hazard a guess the club is probably worth less than the debt level - prem TV money is running out, we still have some expensive contracts on our books and we are looking increasingly likely to be league 1 next season. Thanks for that clarification. I recall the debt was £150 million prior to the Rowett splurge last summer and us treating Nathan to a whole new team this summer, it must surely be circa £200 million now and counting. I doubt the club is worth that now, so Coates family either have to write off debt or convert to capital before they sell. Assuming they have decent accountants (they will) I'd recommend converting to capital (equity/shares) as the loss on this is likely to have better tax consequences for them than a simple debt write off.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 18, 2019 20:08:20 GMT
Thanks for that clarification. I recall the debt was £150 million prior to the Rowett splurge last summer and us treating Nathan to a whole new team this summer, it must surely be circa £200 million now and counting. I doubt the club is worth that now, so Coates family either have to write off debt or convert to capital before they sell. Assuming they have decent accountants (they will) I'd recommend converting to capital (equity/shares) as the loss on this is likely to have better tax consequences for them than a simple debt write off. It's an intercompany loan via Stoke City Holdings from Bet 365 so converting the loan / writing it off has no overall tax consequences for the group as it would disallowable for corporation tax purposes (in the 31/5/2018 Stoke City Holding accounts they have put a provision in of £75.9m against the non recoverability of the football club loan presume this may be to do with FFP or something ?) Bet 365 will have an investment in the football club booked in their company accounts, if and when they ever sell this along with any outstanding loans not to be repaid would be put against the sales price to produce a profit or loss on disposal of their investment.
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banx10
Academy Starlet
Posts: 197
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Post by banx10 on Sept 19, 2019 8:33:07 GMT
The Coates' loans would need to repaid as part of any deal. Those loans £100m plus I think I'm so dumb (yes I know I love TP), but I've been wondering for years why a family worth billions has allowed the club to return back to League One (next season) when they could obviously near enough buy any player with their spare change. It's the financial fair play issue. We clearly can't generate enough money to be up there with the big boys, so we needed to cut our costs. Plus if it's true we have debts of around £100m (bloody mental, even if it is to 'The family'), this just isn't sustainable. Maybe our new focus should be a decent few cup runs & enjoy what we have. At least we're not in League 2.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Sept 19, 2019 10:20:32 GMT
It’s worth nothing think of this way even if you paid £1 for it and the owners write off the £150m loans you’ve just bought a business with Less than £10m turnover in terms of sustainable earnings and a wage bill well in excess of that so before funding transfers you’ve double digit millions to find per year . Given we were earning £110 m a year from tv the alleged bean counter has made a utter fuck if that too . You make a good point that paying even £1 for a loss making machine would be pure folly. But I have a question for any experts in football finance and FFP. Could the present owners write off our circa £200 million of debt if they wanted to? I don't see how FFP would allow that. It would fly in the face of the intention of FFP that you can't simply go out and buy a route back to success, or even try unsuccessfully to do that as we have. I know I keep on about this but, try as I might, I can't see how we are anything other than financially fucked going forwards, only propped up, temporarily at least, by the present owners decision to cover out debt by a share issue. It's a ticking time bomb. A similar one buried even the mighty Leeds United for 30 years. What difference would writing it off make? We pay no interest on it and it will never be repaid so it is really equity anyway. And it doesn’t handicap us, however much debt we have the owners can only put £13 million a year in, new owners can’t spend any more than this in this division without schemes like selling the ground
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banx10
Academy Starlet
Posts: 197
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Post by banx10 on Sept 19, 2019 10:45:40 GMT
I've just done some quick investigation. I can't believe I just wasn't aware of the financial situation. I thought we were in the best situation in our history.
End of financial reports in May 2018, the club was £180,683,000 (180 million !!!) in debt (how the hell did they allow that to happen?). Good news is £122.700,000 is interest free loans to the family.
Because of financial fair-play etc, it doesn't matter if the richest man on the planet bought us, because they still can only spend what we make or whatever it is within their parameters.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 19, 2019 11:20:03 GMT
I've just done some quick investigation. I can't believe I just wasn't aware of the financial situation. I thought we were in the best situation in our history. End of financial reports in May 2018, the club was £180,683,000 (180 million !!!) in debt (how the hell did they allow that to happen?). Good news is £122.700,000 is interest free loans to the family. Because of financial fair-play etc, it doesn't matter if the richest man on the planet bought us, because they still can only spend what we make or whatever it is within their parameters. That's a bit misleading it's a bit like saying I owe the bank £100k in my mortgage and ignoring the fact you have a house The club has cash and current assets of £82m (premier league tv money is paid out at the end of the year) so actually net current debt position is more like £99m which as roughly £94m of that is net intercompany borrowing its really not a big deal, a far bigger problem is under performance on the field meaning we wont be back in the premier league anytime soon.
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banx10
Academy Starlet
Posts: 197
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Post by banx10 on Sept 19, 2019 11:54:28 GMT
I've just done some quick investigation. I can't believe I just wasn't aware of the financial situation. I thought we were in the best situation in our history. End of financial reports in May 2018, the club was £180,683,000 (180 million !!!) in debt (how the hell did they allow that to happen?). Good news is £122.700,000 is interest free loans to the family. Because of financial fair-play etc, it doesn't matter if the richest man on the planet bought us, because they still can only spend what we make or whatever it is within their parameters. That's a bit misleading it's a bit like saying I owe the bank £100k in my mortgage and ignoring the fact you have a house The club has cash and current assets of £82m (premier league tv money is paid out at the end of the year) so actually net current debt position is more like £99m which as roughly £94m of that is net intercompany borrowing its really not a big deal, a far bigger problem is under performance on the field meaning we wont be back in the premier league anytime soon. Yeah good point. The Coates family do own the club & all the assets, which will be worth a lot, £82m sounds fair amount. It's a gamble for everyone (they are in the right business there); either try to spend a bit more to push into the big time where the Sky money is or just play within our budget.
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Post by dutchstokie on Sept 19, 2019 12:08:07 GMT
I've just done some quick investigation. I can't believe I just wasn't aware of the financial situation. I thought we were in the best situation in our history. End of financial reports in May 2018, the club was £180,683,000 (180 million !!!) in debt (how the hell did they allow that to happen?). Good news is £122.700,000 is interest free loans to the family. Because of financial fair-play etc, it doesn't matter if the richest man on the planet bought us, because they still can only spend what we make or whatever it is within their parameters. That's a bit misleading it's a bit like saying I owe the bank £100k in my mortgage and ignoring the fact you have a house The club has cash and current assets of £82m (premier league tv money is paid out at the end of the year) so actually net current debt position is more like £99m which as roughly £94m of that is net intercompany borrowing its really not a big deal, a far bigger problem is under performance on the field meaning we wont be back in the premier league anytime soon. All jokes aside, you seem very knowledgeable when it comes to financial fella...... fair play Is this your ‘bag’ so to speak? My questions is very simple- is Stoke City in the shit ?
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Post by Goonie on Sept 19, 2019 12:29:28 GMT
Are you having a whip round?
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 19, 2019 13:21:24 GMT
That's a bit misleading it's a bit like saying I owe the bank £100k in my mortgage and ignoring the fact you have a house The club has cash and current assets of £82m (premier league tv money is paid out at the end of the year) so actually net current debt position is more like £99m which as roughly £94m of that is net intercompany borrowing its really not a big deal, a far bigger problem is under performance on the field meaning we wont be back in the premier league anytime soon. Yeah good point. The Coates family do own the club & all the assets, which will be worth a lot, £82m sounds fair amount. It's a gamble for everyone (they are in the right business there); either try to spend a bit more to push into the big time where the Sky money is or just play within our budget. Well Bet 365 owns the companies that own the assets and the Coates family own them, the £82m is essentially an investment in the club, the only way they get the money back is on a sale, if you look at a similarish club in Villa they were sold for £200m when in the premier league and then resold for £76m when in the championship. I don't think the amount of funding can be criticised (how it was spent can be of course.....) and when you look at the money Bet 365 make it is not going to hurt them they obviously want to get back into the premier league at some point so I don't see them cutting off spending all together but FFP will obviously tie their hands going forward.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 19, 2019 13:30:30 GMT
That's a bit misleading it's a bit like saying I owe the bank £100k in my mortgage and ignoring the fact you have a house The club has cash and current assets of £82m (premier league tv money is paid out at the end of the year) so actually net current debt position is more like £99m which as roughly £94m of that is net intercompany borrowing its really not a big deal, a far bigger problem is under performance on the field meaning we wont be back in the premier league anytime soon. All jokes aside, you seem very knowledgeable when it comes to financial fella...... fair play Is this your ‘bag’ so to speak? My questions is very simple- is Stoke City in the shit ? Yes accounting is my job, very simple answer is like any business its not making a profit or loss that kills them its not having cash to pay employees / suppliers / taxman, currently it seems we have Bet365's ATM card so Financially we are ok, on the field the next 2 or 3 games will determine how deep in the shit we are.
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Post by knowingeye on Sept 19, 2019 14:04:43 GMT
Is the club for sale?
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 19, 2019 16:27:12 GMT
Not formally or informally as far as I know however like pretty much everything else in the world if the price was right I'm sure it would be.
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Post by musik on Sept 19, 2019 20:49:44 GMT
musik You've won the Euro lottery? Impossible. I don't even join. 😄 It's just a thought experiment. Like Schrödinger's Cat.
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Post by GoBoks on Sept 19, 2019 22:27:40 GMT
It’s worth nothing think of this way even if you paid £1 for it and the owners write off the £150m loans you’ve just bought a business with Less than £10m turnover in terms of sustainable earnings and a wage bill well in excess of that so before funding transfers you’ve double digit millions to find per year . Given we were earning £110 m a year from tv the alleged bean counter has made a utter fuck if that too . You make a good point that paying even £1 for a loss making machine would be pure folly. But I have a question for any experts in football finance and FFP. Could the present owners write off our circa £200 million of debt if they wanted to? I don't see how FFP would allow that. It would fly in the face of the intention of FFP that you can't simply go out and buy a route back to success, or even try unsuccessfully to do that as we have. I know I keep on about this but, try as I might, I can't see how we are anything other than financially fucked going forwards, only propped up, temporarily at least, by the present owners decision to cover out debt by a share issue. It's a ticking time bomb. A similar one buried even the mighty Leeds United for 30 years. Pedantic point I know, but Leeds were relegated from the PL in 2004. 15 years ago not 30.
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Post by wrighter on Sept 20, 2019 7:39:59 GMT
Any idea? How much would any new owner/s have to come up with? Would it solve our current solution? Jim Ratcliffe owner of Ineos would be ideal He lives 5 miles from me, i"ll pop in and av a word
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