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Post by greyman on Sept 16, 2019 11:41:47 GMT
It's not as complicated as people are making it. The performance of the team is 100 percent Jones' RESPONSIBILITY, but the FAULT lies with a number of people throughout the club. How you carve that up is the question and the truth is that nobody really knows, not even the people with all the facts at their disposal.
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Post by stokeoptimist on Sept 16, 2019 11:51:26 GMT
Previous recent history suggests that sacking the manager will make no difference so the logical think to do is stick and break the cycle!
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Post by Davef on Sept 16, 2019 11:59:47 GMT
Previous recent history suggests that sacking the manager will make no difference so the logical think to do is stick and break the cycle! Our previous history? That's not really an excuse to stick with a manager who is showing absolutely no sign of turning this situation around it it? And the longer we allow it to continue, the more difficult it becomes for a new manager.
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 16, 2019 12:09:13 GMT
Previous recent history suggests that sacking the manager will make no difference so the logical think to do is stick and break the cycle! Our previous history? That's not really an excuse to stick with a manager who is showing absolutely no sign of turning this situation around it it? And the longer we allow it to continue, the more difficult it becomes for a new manager. Yep - they're obviously (and understandably) gun shy after the Hughes, Lambert and Rowett sackings. Bang Bang Bang! They just don't want that fourth - but not sure you can think that way. You've just got to judge every tenure on its merits - adn this one is stinking the place out, as much as I like him personally. The longer we leave it, the steeper the climb for the new man. www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/live-stoke-city-questions-answers-3322940Name another manager who is still in his job with Nathan Jones' win ratio? I'll wait. There is no ruthlessness in the boardroom- this is relegation form. The fact that Scholes is still in his CEO role is laughable. Tom (Potteries)You’re right, there isn’t. But there’s a good reason for that and it’s the fact we’ve already seen three managers in less than two years and the fact they have backed Nathan Jones so wholeheartedly. So we shouldn’t be surprised by their loyalty, even after six defeats in seven, but it can only last so long of course.
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Post by stokeykez on Sept 16, 2019 12:12:45 GMT
I remember Rory getting sent off with the score 0-0 against the richest club in the world. Our defence was rock solid and we won from an Ethers cross and BT header. A sending off is not a reason to collapse in the second half with abject defending devoid of any organisation. Jones has to go. Spot on March. It was way too easy for them to get in behind and get both of those two crosses in that resulted in both their goals. And the thought that every time bristled got into that situation we would concede in the same style. 2 goals identical resulting in having completely inept personnel at left back
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 16, 2019 12:15:35 GMT
Not everything that happens on the pitch is Jones' fault but there's just too much he has got wrong for me to see him turning it around or giving him much longer
*Signing 12 players, half of which were probably unnecessary and don't contribute towards what was actually required (pacy, left backs, etc) *Writing last season off to lay the foundations only to get considerably worse this season *Not sticking with one formation, one system, one first choice defensive back line to get any sort of understanding *Dropping Butland and Allen for a game, only to reinstate them after a week. They needed to be dropped for a month, not just a game *An extension of that, making Joe Allen captain after such a shite spell in the team *Conceding 2 a game for the last, what is it, 10/12 games? *Lack of goals scored *Lack of game time for youngsters (I know he did start off well in this regard) and dropping them like a stone for no real reason (Edwards at the beginning of this season, Verlinden after Reading, Campbell after Leeds in the cup etc). They are always the easiest to drop
There's even more to add to the above and it's hard to think how the bloke could have made a bigger pig's ear of it. This is a guy who hasn't a clue how to turn it around. He's not showing anything for me to have belief in him. I don't get the feeling we're anywhere near to clicking or suddenly become solid at the back, creative in midfield and clinical up front. We will win one at some point, the law of averages dictates that but, overall, we are miles away from being just ordinary and that's on Jones.
He's just fucked it. And I don't care if we've only played 7, we'll do well to finish above 20th. It's a catastrophic mess. I genuinely cannot give you one reason why I'd stick with him and I don't see how he's still got any support left.
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 16, 2019 12:15:44 GMT
There have been managers that have survived a relegation and gone on to achieve success with the club involved.
Not with a win rate of 13% though, as far as I know.
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Post by Davef on Sept 16, 2019 12:19:16 GMT
There have been managers that have survived a relegation and gone on to achieve success with the club involved. Not with a win rate of 13% though, as far as I know. Any examples of managers in Jones's situation (ie, getting the club into trouble in the first place, not turning up halfway through a season, keeping them up and going on to win promotion the following year or two)?
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 16, 2019 12:20:18 GMT
There have been managers that have survived a relegation and gone on to achieve success with the club involved. Not with a win rate of 13% though, as far as I know. What about a manager inheriting a £50million built for the Championship squad and spending another £20million in 8 months?
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 16, 2019 12:34:37 GMT
There have been managers that have survived a relegation and gone on to achieve success with the club involved. Not with a win rate of 13% though, as far as I know. Any examples of managers in Jones's situation (ie, getting the club into trouble in the first place, not turning up halfway through a season, keeping them up and going on to win promotion the following year or two)? Tommy Docherty took over Man. U. at some stage of the 1972/73 season and they stayed up, similar to Jones taking over from Rowett I guess.
In 1973/74 United were relegated under Docherty and he kept his job.
In 1974/75 United were promoted, that's about the nearest example I can recall.
I'm not suggesting we should keep Jones Dave if the losses continue.
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 16, 2019 12:36:15 GMT
There have been managers that have survived a relegation and gone on to achieve success with the club involved. Not with a win rate of 13% though, as far as I know. What about a manager inheriting a £50million built for the Championship squad and spending another £20million in 8 months? Obviously pugs Jones should be doing much better, of course it could still happen and the results turn.
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Post by s7oke on Sept 16, 2019 12:51:24 GMT
I honestly think if we can scrape a win we will push on and be a good side. Do we have a gypsies curse on the ground or something ?
We are getting zero luck and yes I know you make your own luck but fuck me it’s an horrendous run we are having
All the blame can’t be directed at the manager
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 13:46:54 GMT
Spot on March. It was way too easy for them to get in behind and get both of those two crosses in that resulted in both their goals. And the thought that every time bristled got into that situation we would concede in the same style. 2 goals identical resulting in having completely inept personnel at left back What about the right back, the centre backs and the keeper who never looked even close to defending the crosses?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 13:51:50 GMT
It's not Jones' fault... just because he identified the players, encouraged the club to sign them, trained them in a formation all pre season that was not suited to them and then ditched it pretty much straight away. Also just because he rarely picks players on merit and makes 5-6 changes each game and still concede regularly in the same manner.
How can anyone blame him? After all his record since joining us speaks volumes in the quality he has bought to the club.
I'm also surprised God has better things to do than give a little known Welsh Manager all the success in the world. I was hoping we had the next Bruce Almighty on our hands.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Sept 17, 2019 9:25:58 GMT
Are we ignoring that the rest of the defence failed to do their job too.... Not at all but the initial threat came from that position, not for the first time this season either! Which is fair enough, yes he should be doing better to stop the cross but it shouldn't be the end of the world if he doesn't, there's something wrong if your CBs aren't capable of heading away a simple cross, it was poor from CCV but then who else is there, we've seen it form all our defenders at some point.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Sept 17, 2019 9:28:48 GMT
There have been managers that have survived a relegation and gone on to achieve success with the club involved. Not with a win rate of 13% though, as far as I know. What about a manager inheriting a £50million built for the Championship squad and spending another £20million in 8 months? It would help if that 50mil was spent well, don't get me wrong we're clearly in the shit as it stands but people band that about as if it was well spent and Jones is the one fucking it all up, it isn't that b&w.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 9:39:47 GMT
What about a manager inheriting a £50million built for the Championship squad and spending another £20million in 8 months? It would help if that 50mil was spent well, don't get me wrong we're clearly in the shit as it stands but people band that about as if it was well spent and Jones is the one fucking it all up, it isn't that b&w. They have both been as bad as each other. Whilst Jones is clearly worse given his record it doesn't mean Rowett was somehow wonderful. Two managers not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do and here we are.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 13:50:59 GMT
It would help if that 50mil was spent well, don't get me wrong we're clearly in the shit as it stands but people band that about as if it was well spent and Jones is the one fucking it all up, it isn't that b&w. They have both been as bad as each other. Whilst Jones is clearly worse given his record it doesn't mean Rowett was somehow wonderful. Two managers not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do and here we are. I'm not sure that's right. I don't know what constitutes "being qualified" for the job, but both were good candidates. GR had achieved some success at both Birmingham and Derby at this level. Some people were advocating him to replace Mark Hughes. NJ had won promotion with Luton Town and had them top of the next league straight after that promotion, playing attacking football and scoring lots of goals. How were they not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do? In the words of Roy Keane, that's nonsense.
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Post by mamasgloves on Sept 17, 2019 14:00:58 GMT
Im fully in the Jones out camp but you can't sack him on today. The Allen red is dubious. Edwards defending is piss poor. But to play with 10 men for 80 minutes and totally nullify them, in fact we were as threatening as they were, is credit to the manager. We looked excellent for 15 minutes. We looked good for another 20. We looked Okay for the remainder. I honestly believe a yellow for Allen which wouldn't have been criticised would have seen us win that comfortably. If he sticks with that formation we will easily stay up. Badou was a different class. Ok, so he sticks with that formation, continues to ditch the system that got him the job, we stay up and are lumbered with the bulk of 10 players unsuited to his new one. The bloke is gasping for breath, any win at this point by the very nature of his ever changing selections/setup is by luck not design
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Post by Gary Hackett on Sept 17, 2019 14:31:09 GMT
It takes a very bad manager to make things worse after what went before but he's certainly done that.
Hats off to him because coming from someone who didn't want him in the first place he's excelled and performed even worse than I'd ever imagine.
If he doesn't get fired imminently there's no doubt we'll be relegated under this bloke.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 16:01:01 GMT
They have both been as bad as each other. Whilst Jones is clearly worse given his record it doesn't mean Rowett was somehow wonderful. Two managers not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do and here we are. I'm not sure that's right. I don't know what constitutes "being qualified" for the job, but both were good candidates. GR had achieved some success at both Birmingham and Derby at this level. Some people were advocating him to replace Mark Hughes. NJ had won promotion with Luton Town and had them top of the next league straight after that promotion, playing attacking football and scoring lots of goals. How were they not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do? In the words of Roy Keane, that's nonsense. No it isn't. When has GR ever had a transfer budget of £50m or achieved promotion yet we gave him £50m to achieve promotion. Jones has not even managed in this league. It is quite clear it is another level to League One and he just has no Championship experience - its not a criticism it's a fact. If they wanted a swift return to the Prem, which they have said numerous times is what "the job" is, they did not hire the right man for the job. Twice.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 16:12:38 GMT
I'm not sure that's right. I don't know what constitutes "being qualified" for the job, but both were good candidates. GR had achieved some success at both Birmingham and Derby at this level. Some people were advocating him to replace Mark Hughes. NJ had won promotion with Luton Town and had them top of the next league straight after that promotion, playing attacking football and scoring lots of goals. How were they not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do? In the words of Roy Keane, that's nonsense. No it isn't. When has GR ever had a transfer budget of £50m or achieved promotion yet we gave him £50m to achieve promotion. Jones has not even managed in this league. It is quite clear it is another level to League One and he just has no Championship experience - its not a criticism it's a fact. If they wanted a swift return to the Prem, which they have said numerous times is what "the job" is, they did not hire the right man for the job. Twice. Well I disagree. Rowett reached the play-offs the previous season and the board backed him to help him. Jones got his team to the top of two leagues in succession. There must be a number of managers who enjoyed success in League 1 and also the Championship. You telling me that Dean Smith and Billy Wilder fluked it? They were wanting an ambitious young manager with a track record. Both fit the brief. To say they weren't "qualified" is incorrect.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 16:20:02 GMT
No it isn't. When has GR ever had a transfer budget of £50m or achieved promotion yet we gave him £50m to achieve promotion. Jones has not even managed in this league. It is quite clear it is another level to League One and he just has no Championship experience - its not a criticism it's a fact. If they wanted a swift return to the Prem, which they have said numerous times is what "the job" is, they did not hire the right man for the job. Twice. Well I disagree. Rowett reached the play-offs the previous season and the board backed him to help him. Jones got his team to the top of two leagues in succession. There must be a number of managers who enjoyed success in League 1 and also the Championship. You telling me that Dean Smith and Billy Wilder fluked it? They were wanting an ambitious young manager with a track record. Both fit the brief. To say they weren't "qualified" is incorrect. No I'm not saying they fluked it but if you wanted to be certain of success neither were the correct appointments. Rowett may have reached the play-offs but he didn't get £50m to spend. Jones may one day do well but again if the only aim is promotion then it was a gamble to bring someone in who hadn't even managed in the league regardless of how well he's done in League Two and League One. No appointment can guarantee success but why in particular you'd say to someone who has never been promoted "here's £50m to spend to get us immediate promotion" was plain daft. It's not his appointment as manager I have an issue with its the money he's been given. Similarly Jones, did we really hire him and say right you have to get us to the Prem immediately? If we did then it was daft. It's not a criticism of the managers it's our board not realising they were asking two people to do something they'd never done and thinking nothing could go this wrong. It's just completely daft.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 17:00:26 GMT
Well I disagree. Rowett reached the play-offs the previous season and the board backed him to help him. Jones got his team to the top of two leagues in succession. There must be a number of managers who enjoyed success in League 1 and also the Championship. You telling me that Dean Smith and Billy Wilder fluked it? They were wanting an ambitious young manager with a track record. Both fit the brief. To say they weren't "qualified" is incorrect. No I'm not saying they fluked it but if you wanted to be certain of success neither were the correct appointments. Rowett may have reached the play-offs but he didn't get £50m to spend. Jones may one day do well but again if the only aim is promotion then it was a gamble to bring someone in who hadn't even managed in the league regardless of how well he's done in League Two and League One. No appointment can guarantee success but why in particular you'd say to someone who has never been promoted "here's £50m to spend to get us immediate promotion" was plain daft. It's not his appointment as manager I have an issue with its the money he's been given. Similarly Jones, did we really hire him and say right you have to get us to the Prem immediately? If we did then it was daft. It's not a criticism of the managers it's our board not realising they were asking two people to do something they'd never done and thinking nothing could go this wrong. It's just completely daft. No it isn't. Fulham, Wolves, Norwich, Sheffield United and Aston Villa did it in just the last couple of seasons. It didn't work with GR and it isn't working with NJ at the moment. To say they weren't "qualified" for the job is ludicrous though. Are Swansea daft by the same criteria? If so, they're second in the league at the moment. Your argument doesn't stand up. You've dug yourself into a bit of a hole here mate.
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Post by bertiebigguns on Sept 17, 2019 17:03:08 GMT
Stokeholm syndrome.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:10:23 GMT
No I'm not saying they fluked it but if you wanted to be certain of success neither were the correct appointments. Rowett may have reached the play-offs but he didn't get £50m to spend. Jones may one day do well but again if the only aim is promotion then it was a gamble to bring someone in who hadn't even managed in the league regardless of how well he's done in League Two and League One. No appointment can guarantee success but why in particular you'd say to someone who has never been promoted "here's £50m to spend to get us immediate promotion" was plain daft. It's not his appointment as manager I have an issue with its the money he's been given. Similarly Jones, did we really hire him and say right you have to get us to the Prem immediately? If we did then it was daft. It's not a criticism of the managers it's our board not realising they were asking two people to do something they'd never done and thinking nothing could go this wrong. It's just completely daft. No it isn't. Fulham, Wolves, Norwich, Sheffield United and Aston Villa did it in just the last couple of seasons. , It didn't work with GR and it isn't working with NJ at the moment. To say they weren't "qualified" for the job is ludicrous though. Are Swansea daft by the same criteria? If so, they're second in the league at the moment. Your argument doesn't stand up. You've dug yourself into a bit of a hole here mate. No I haven't. Fulham, Norwich and Sheff Utd all spent at least 4 years in the Championship before they went back up and went through numerous managers (Villa 3 years before they got promoted, Wolves new owners changed all the processes at the club as well as hiring an experienced manager. Who has hired a League One manager half way through season to make a bid for promotion and done it or even got promoted the next year?
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Post by oatcakesteve on Sept 17, 2019 20:59:19 GMT
Theres been a 'reason' for every game we've lost this season! Ooh we've missed chances (every game!).. Someone's been sent off (Allen Y'day!).. We haven't defended well (Every Game).. Jack Butland had wind he wasnt going to be in the England squad (Preston).. We were playing well at the start and they just hit us on the counter (every game).. The opposition keep changing their tactics to counter ours and its really frustrating me (Derby)... Whatever next I wonder! Individually on the odd match I accept there are reasons why you can lose a match you dont deserve to, but come on every league game we're failing to win coz of reasons every manager could use as a reason after a defeat. If any of the above occur during a match, they're all still winnable matches but we're simply not. Beating Derby with 10 men last season v Derby prime example. Bad luck does exist, but I'm beyond thinking it's purely down to misfortune with us now. & all the above relates to this season so far. I gave him the benefit of the doubt last season but looking back, quite simply no change no change I'm afraid. "You make you're own luck" however this involves knowing what the fuck you are doing and how you are going to go about achieving it, unfortunately Nathan hasn't got a clue on either pre requisites therefore we will continue to hear even more excuses from the happy clappers for our failure. I'm not a "happy clapper" mate, I just think that chopping and changing managers every few months will definitely fuck us up, but you continue to belittle others with a different opinion to your own.
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Post by swampySCFC on Sept 17, 2019 21:06:56 GMT
Not everything that happens on the pitch is Jones' fault but there's just too much he has got wrong for me to see him turning it around or giving him much longer *Signing 12 players, half of which were probably unnecessary and don't contribute towards what was actually required (pacy, left backs, etc) *Writing last season off to lay the foundations only to get considerably worse this season *Not sticking with one formation, one system, one first choice defensive back line to get any sort of understanding *Dropping Butland and Allen for a game, only to reinstate them after a week. They needed to be dropped for a month, not just a game *An extension of that, making Joe Allen captain after such a shite spell in the team *Conceding 2 a game for the last, what is it, 10/12 games? *Lack of goals scored *Lack of game time for youngsters (I know he did start off well in this regard) and dropping them like a stone for no real reason (Edwards at the beginning of this season, Verlinden after Reading, Campbell after Leeds in the cup etc). They are always the easiest to drop There's even more to add to the above and it's hard to think how the bloke could have made a bigger pig's ear of it. This is a guy who hasn't a clue how to turn it around. He's not showing anything for me to have belief in him. I don't get the feeling we're anywhere near to clicking or suddenly become solid at the back, creative in midfield and clinical up front. We will win one at some point, the law of averages dictates that but, overall, we are miles away from being just ordinary and that's on Jones. He's just fucked it. And I don't care if we've only played 7, we'll do well to finish above 20th. It's a catastrophic mess. I genuinely cannot give you one reason why I'd stick with him and I don't see how he's still got any support left. Cant argue with that mate. Top and bottom is the clue is in the title Manager. Very poor
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Post by oatcakesteve on Sept 17, 2019 21:07:40 GMT
It takes a very bad manager to make things worse after what went before but he's certainly done that. Hats off to him because coming from someone who didn't want him in the first place he's excelled and performed even worse than I'd ever imagine. If he doesn't get fired imminently there's no doubt we'll be relegated under this bloke. We've been on a downturn since Hughes. We could get Alex Ferguson and it'll be the same. There's more to this than the manager in my opinion. Changing the manager will change nothing.
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Post by stokeykez on Sept 17, 2019 21:10:44 GMT
Still dont understand what all of the bad luck is that folks say we are getting, and that which is crippling us.
Hitting the woodwork/ bar = shit finishing
Red cards = shit tackling ability
Captains broken leg = every team gets a significant injury at some point in season
Missed penalties = shit confidence/ability
Own goals = happen all the time
For me very little is to do with luck, this is just general occurrence in football, sometimes you benefit, sometimes you don't.
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