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Post by tony1234 on Sept 11, 2019 21:27:56 GMT
You can't just keep pointing to the money they've spent to try and circumvent criticism though, however well intentioned it was. The money has been spent badly by people and processes implemented by the owners or the people they've employed or continued to employ. In this day and age, huge amounts of money spent badly is more damaging to football clubs than not having much at all, but spending that wisely. For a simple one line comparison, compare Preston to Stoke. One is an expensively assembled mess and the other a finely tuned football club operating within it's means. If we did drop this season, that 50M spent last season will kill us. They deserve every ounce of criticism they get. Our business over the last few years has been at best lazy, at worst completely negligent. I agree, it's just I see a lot of comments on here and at the ground criticising them for not spending enough. When in reality, we've spent more than enough but haven't spent a penny on it modernising the club or how it is run. Rather than actually address what went wrong in 17/18 they threw 50 million at it and hoped that it stuck on a manager with a solid reputation and a "star studded" squad rather than taking a step back and thinking: "Our transfers are killing us, our contracts are killing us, let's have a look at how we can improve there". I'd rather spend 10 million on the squad and 40 million on developing a coherent and well run scouting network with a sporting director. The Coates have brought this on themselves, and whilst crisis clubs do put it into perspective that they are not "terrible" owners, like you say it's disingenuous to say that they can't be criticised just because they throw money around. True... when you think an average Champs manager earns 500-1m/yr and we get an averagish one to spend 50m and then a L1 manager with no experience to look after a 100m+ squad, its simply senseless. Spending 5m-10m on a backroom with the likes of Gil (the Villa DOF) or Webber at Norwich, a top head of sports science and a strong, experienced manager, but only spending 40-45m on the squad should surely have been a no brainer? (It would have also meant better retaining the value of players we've got, through better performance-management, developing the youth and development set-up, so more younger players become first team ready or sellable assets, and being able to better spot better-value players from the global market.....and also be a club top PL clubs would be happier to loan their young starlets to.) Instead we carried on relying on Cartwright and Scholes - a pair of amateurish overpromoted chancers - and Jon Coates - the product of pure nepotism. The bill for doing that is probably running up towards 100m over the past 3 years. The revenue from Champs to L1 leagues goes from 800m to 150m. So, you can reckon on a big drop. Sunderland's losses doubled (10m to 20m) as their revenue halved from 120m to 60m last year. Lord knows what our losses would do given the liability of contracts.
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Post by onefatcopper on Sept 11, 2019 22:08:56 GMT
I don't think that anybody would deny that the Coates family have made some mistakes in how they've been running things over the past few years. They've been too loyal to various members of staff, backed the wrong horse on occasion and perhaps been complacent. However, what are you really going to do about it? To whom are they accountable. They own the club. They're paying every penny of Gianelli Imbula's wages. They've made real, brick and mortar investments in the stadium and training ground. There is no alternative. It's their way, or no way at all. Not to despair, though. The good still outweighs the bad by a long, long, long, long way. Before anybody suggests that the Coates could sell up and bring in an exciting foreign investor, assuming that anybody wants to buy us, I think that we can get complacent about the value of having local owners who actually care about the club. For every Man City, there's a Portsmouth, Swansea, Sunderland, Birmingham and Blackburn. I don't want them to sell up but is it too much to ask that they just hire someone, anyone, just one person at the club who knows what the fuck they are doing. Surely this is not too much to ask. We need a C.E.O who has imagination, drive and ambition, Peter Coates with his old school loyalty has once again been used by someone in who he trusts and that man is Mr Scholes ! It seemed that the trio of Coates, Pulis and Scholes could do no wrong as we progressed on and off the field, but eventually we had to evolve as a footballing team and we parted ways with Pulis. We hired Hughes and had years of entertainment but for little reward and at great cost, as fans we enjoyed frozen ticket prices and free travel for away games, but we could see the wheels where coming off. At this point we eventually saw Hughes wave goodbye but the rot had set in, and we now find ourselves at our natural level, bottom of the championship ? Through our rise and fall, Scholes has been the constant, but why ? What has he actually done ? Peter Coates or Bet365 write the cheques but on who’s advice do they seek ? Mr Scholes points out that he has no input on the football side of the club therefore Mr Scholes must be responsible for the day to day running of the club and infrastructure ? Well he’s doing a fine job ! During Mr Scholes tenure Stoke have posted a profit once, find themselves millions of pounds in debt and reliant on the generosity of our parent club, millions of pounds wasted on unwanted stock and its ongoing upkeep ! As a subsidiary to a company who pride themselves with R&D, market leadership and communication we are a disgrace (why don’t we seek advice from these experts ?) This club will remain stagnant until we rid ourselves of Mr Scholes ! We need new dynamism and ideas, bring the club up to the 21st century standards that we find at fellow championship clubs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 22:13:01 GMT
I don't want them to sell up but is it too much to ask that they just hire someone, anyone, just one person at the club who knows what the fuck they are doing. Surely this is not too much to ask. We need a C.E.O who has imagination, drive and ambition, Peter Coates with his old school loyalty has once again been used by someone in who he trusts and that man is Mr Scholes ! It seemed that the trio of Coates, Pulis and Scholes could do no wrong as we progressed on and off the field, but eventually we had to evolve as a footballing team and we parted ways with Pulis. We hired Hughes and had years of entertainment but for little reward and at great cost, as fans we enjoyed frozen ticket prices and free travel for away games, but we could see the wheels where coming off. At this point we eventually saw Hughes wave goodbye but the rot had set in, and we now find ourselves at our natural level, bottom of the championship ? Through our rise and fall, Scholes has been the constant, but why ? What has he actually done ? Peter Coates or Bet365 write the cheques but on who’s advice do they seek ? Mr Scholes points out that he has no input on the football side of the club therefore Mr Scholes must be responsible for the day to day running of the club and infrastructure ? Well he’s doing a fine job ! During Mr Scholes tenure Stoke have posted a profit once, find themselves millions of pounds in debt and reliant on the generosity of our parent club, millions of pounds wasted on unwanted stock and its ongoing upkeep ! As a subsidiary to a company who pride themselves with R&D, market leadership and communication we are a disgrace (why don’t we seek advice from these experts ?) This club will remain stagnant until we rid ourselves of Mr Scholes ! We need new dynamism and ideas, bring the club up to the 21st century standards that we find at fellow championship clubs. From the interview mate I think it’s clear they just aren’t really that bothered. I know they must be disappointed but they should be angry. And all we get it “it’s just football”. They can’t fix the problem because they don’t really acknowledge there is a problem in the first place. Saying they still don’t know what went wrong last season just shows it. £50m down the drain and it’s like they’ve just lost 2p down the back of the sofa.
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Post by GoBoks on Sept 11, 2019 22:19:37 GMT
As fans are we being too lenient with them? Let me say I am completely grateful for the past decade and being only 30 myself, it has allowed me to experience some of the better times of being a Stoke fan, however, the way they have handled these past few years has been completely appalling. So when is enough actually enough? When does the "Look what they have done for us" argument finally lose meaning? I'm not saying lets start a "Coates Out" campaign but handing the reigns to Jon seems to of been a complete disaster and I think Peter is too old fashioned. If he took charge again, we would end up with another Pulis, we may become successful again and gain promotion....but how long before it rubs off and we wan't a change again? I don't think they know how to take us to that next level and you look at teams like Wolves and it kind of makes you lind of sick how far we have been left behind. I would personally like them to take a step back, (not sell the club), have a complete clear out and employ a group of people, from the top down, with a modern footballing mentality, who can change the complete structure of the club. This is what we all envisaged when they came out with their "promise" after relegation, so why hasn't anything changed? Chucking £50m at a manager isn't exactly learning from mistakes. I just feel really angry with them at the moment, that they as a whole could allow this to happen. Everyting from the top to the bottom is a shit show, even down to the match day experience. We have only just had fucking card machines installed, not contactless....fucking card payments, and what man who made some of his fortune in catering allows the ground to serve food that isn't fit for a fucking dog to eat? We all sat with our heads in the clouds for 7-8 years, including them, and now we're back down to earth, the state the club is in is there for all to see. They can't keep hiding behind managers...they need to step up and take responsibility and I don't mean some poxy statement promising things will change, because we all know now that we were all fed complete and utter bullshit! Or simply, give us your money, how we want it given, when we want it given and how much we want given. Can I suggest that if the fickle bunch on here were given the club and 100 million quid, to run it with, we would be out of business in 2 years tops!
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 11, 2019 22:42:51 GMT
A very ungracious OP.
The Coates have been the saviours of the club and without their benefaction by taking ownership of the club, we would probably have never been in the Prem. etc.
So things are not going well now, but if you have followed football for over half a century you'll know that things go round. I can remember Mun U relegated, Villa in the third tier, Ipswich Town Champions and runners-up twice.
Things have changed since the introduction of the Premier League with 6 very rich clubs dominating the rest and only 1 other club an ever present in the top flight, namely Everton. All the more remarkable then that Stoke reached the FA Cup final, achieved three 9th pace finishes, and stayed in the top flight for a decade.
It would be the end of Stoke City if the Coates were to turn their back on the club. They are not perfect owners and seem out of touch, but who else would take on the ownership of Stoke City?Certainly no foreign investor would be the slightest bit interested; they only want to buy clubs with a (potential) large following and a history of winning things.
People need to be careful what they wish for. Many great clubs have disappeared or in divisions below us. As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 11, 2019 23:15:44 GMT
A very ungracious OP. The Coates have been the saviours of the club and without their benefaction by taking ownership of the club, we would probably have never been in the Prem. etc. So things are not going well now, but if you have followed football for over half a century you'll know that things go round. I can remember Mun U relegated, Villa in the third tier, Ipswich Town Champions and runners-up twice. Things have changed since the introduction of the Premier League with 6 very rich clubs dominating the rest and only 1 other club an ever present in the top flight, namely Everton. All the more remarkable then that Stoke reached the FA Cup final, achieved three 9th pace finishes, and stayed in the top flight for a decade. It would be the end of Stoke City if the Coates were to turn their back on the club. They are not perfect owners and seem out of touch, but who else would take on the ownership of Stoke City?Certainly no foreign investor would be the slightest bit interested; they only want to buy clubs with a (potential) large following and a history of winning things. People need to be careful what they wish for. Many great clubs have disappeared or in divisions below us. As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade. Foreign ownership is a reality for a shit tonne of clubs now, Wolves and Leicester, clubs similar to ourselves with next to no recent success when their owners took them over have rejuvenated their fortunes. The Pozzi family, despite intense criticism have turned Watford into a decent outfit. Bournemouth under Maxim Denim have soared beyond anything people would say was possible. Southampton being saved by Liebherr, Sheffield United have had Middle Eastern shareholders for years now. The argument that no one would be interested doesn’t hold any sway given the multitude of examples currently in the PL. I don’t want Coates gone, because there’s the other side to foreign ownership that can destroy clubs, but if Coates and Co were foreign owners they’d be given a lot more shit than they currently are. We’re on the same trajectory that Blackburn were under Venkys in everything other than the fact they flush 50 million down the drain every year. As I said, I have no doubt they love the club, but they are killing it with their aloof and outdated modus operandi.
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Post by onefatcopper on Sept 12, 2019 0:11:24 GMT
A very ungracious OP. The Coates have been the saviours of the club and without their benefaction by taking ownership of the club, we would probably have never been in the Prem. etc. So things are not going well now, but if you have followed football for over half a century you'll know that things go round. I can remember Mun U relegated, Villa in the third tier, Ipswich Town Champions and runners-up twice. Things have changed since the introduction of the Premier League with 6 very rich clubs dominating the rest and only 1 other club an ever present in the top flight, namely Everton. All the more remarkable then that Stoke reached the FA Cup final, achieved three 9th pace finishes, and stayed in the top flight for a decade. It would be the end of Stoke City if the Coates were to turn their back on the club. They are not perfect owners and seem out of touch, but who else would take on the ownership of Stoke City?Certainly no foreign investor would be the slightest bit interested; they only want to buy clubs with a (potential) large following and a history of winning things. People need to be careful what they wish for. Many great clubs have disappeared or in divisions below us. As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade. Foreign ownership is a reality for a shit tonne of clubs now, Wolves and Leicester, clubs similar to ourselves with next to no recent success when their owners took them over have rejuvenated their fortunes. The Pozzi family, despite intense criticism have turned Watford into a decent outfit. Bournemouth under Maxim Denim have soared beyond anything people would say was possible. Southampton being saved by Liebherr, Sheffield United have had Middle Eastern shareholders for years now. The argument that no one would be interested doesn’t hold any sway given the multitude of examples currently in the PL. I don’t want Coates gone, because there’s the other side to foreign ownership that can destroy clubs, but if Coates and Co were foreign owners they’d be given a lot more shit than they currently are. We’re on the same trajectory that Blackburn were under Venkys in everything other than the fact they flush 50 million down the drain every year. As I said, I have no doubt they love the club, but they are killing it with their aloof and outdated modus operandi. The Bet365 empire are now swimming in the same pond as most of the big hitters of North American sport, they are at the forefront of the online betting explosion that has opened up in the US. Surely they must be meeting and greeting investors who may just possibly be interested in a fallen premier league soccer team ? After all the Villa found a US billionaire saviour with just hours to spare, and they were in a similar position to ourselves.
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Post by Stokyo on Sept 12, 2019 1:04:02 GMT
They took this club from nowhere to mid prem stability. Now they have destroyed the club and taken it back to nowhere. Their actions have taken something stable and made every area of the club an utter shambles.
The question is why. Naivety, complacency, idiocy or were they always out of their depth and eventually they got found out. Either way the past is in the past and we are a relegation form championship club now and need a change of ownership OR a 'root and branch ' reform as was promised not a rake the top layer of soil and call it job done reform.
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Post by Stokyo on Sept 12, 2019 1:07:55 GMT
A very ungracious OP. The Coates have been the saviours of the club and without their benefaction by taking ownership of the club, we would probably have never been in the Prem. etc. So things are not going well now, but if you have followed football for over half a century you'll know that things go round. I can remember Mun U relegated, Villa in the third tier, Ipswich Town Champions and runners-up twice. Things have changed since the introduction of the Premier League with 6 very rich clubs dominating the rest and only 1 other club an ever present in the top flight, namely Everton. All the more remarkable then that Stoke reached the FA Cup final, achieved three 9th pace finishes, and stayed in the top flight for a decade. It would be the end of Stoke City if the Coates were to turn their back on the club. They are not perfect owners and seem out of touch, but who else would take on the ownership of Stoke City?Certainly no foreign investor would be the slightest bit interested; they only want to buy clubs with a (potential) large following and a history of winning things. People need to be careful what they wish for. Many great clubs have disappeared or in divisions below us. As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade. You got this weeks lottery numbers too Mystic Mrcoke? This is utter rot, you have no idea who was interested in this club when we were a mid table prem club regularly turning over the big boys. Unless you were a fly on the wall in the board room or you bugged the phones. We are a relegation form bottom of the championship soon to be league 1 club. You think new owners would do a worse job than this?
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Sept 12, 2019 4:42:26 GMT
We've done managerial selections, player investment and people running the club to death.
I look at the match day experience that we, as consumers, get on a weekly basis.
The frozen season tickets for so many years was a fantastic gesture, as was the free travel they put on. Everything else though is incredibally poor in my opinion and any 'improvement' that is made seems to happen with a sense of reluctance. The ground is shit, the facilities are shit, the surrounding area is shit and the services that the club provides are shit.
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Post by heworksardtho on Sept 12, 2019 5:49:11 GMT
We've done managerial selections, player investment and people running the club to death. I look at the match day experience that we, as consumers, get on a weekly basis. The frozen season tickets for so many years was a fantastic gesture, as was the free travel they put on. Everything else though is incredibally poor in my opinion and any 'improvement' that is made seems to happen with a sense of reluctance. The ground is shit, the facilities are shit, the surrounding area is shit and the services that the club provides are shit. The Team also is ..................Shit 😎
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 6:26:00 GMT
A very ungracious OP. The Coates have been the saviours of the club and without their benefaction by taking ownership of the club, we would probably have never been in the Prem. etc. So things are not going well now, but if you have followed football for over half a century you'll know that things go round. I can remember Mun U relegated, Villa in the third tier, Ipswich Town Champions and runners-up twice. Things have changed since the introduction of the Premier League with 6 very rich clubs dominating the rest and only 1 other club an ever present in the top flight, namely Everton. All the more remarkable then that Stoke reached the FA Cup final, achieved three 9th pace finishes, and stayed in the top flight for a decade. It would be the end of Stoke City if the Coates were to turn their back on the club. They are not perfect owners and seem out of touch, but who else would take on the ownership of Stoke City?Certainly no foreign investor would be the slightest bit interested; they only want to buy clubs with a (potential) large following and a history of winning things. People need to be careful what they wish for. Many great clubs have disappeared or in divisions below us. As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade. You make a lot of heartfelt and decent points that are at odds with my recent criticism of the family but buried in your post is a point that I simply have to take issue with. In your warning of being careful what we wish for, you state many great clubs have disappeared or are in the league below us. The passionate, caring local ownership are not that far from taking us to the league below if their current trajectory isn't corrected, so what are we being careful of and what are we wishing for? If we get relegated then make no mistake, it is not only a devastating travesty, but one entirely of the clubs making and one that is 50M times worse than the last time the family delivered it in 1998. At least we had the excuse of spending the square root of nothing badly back then!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 12, 2019 7:37:32 GMT
Happy with the ownership. Just remember what we had before. Just poor decisions in player choice from I believe it will change. Whether with Jones or not. They’ve been doing the same thing for 3 years now and the figurehead keeps coming out with the same nonsense about not really understanding why it’s going wrong. They are the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 7:49:37 GMT
We seem to be working in the past with Coates at the helm. They need to change their way of thinking, then escalate that down with making changes below them.
No point changing at the bottom when it’s clear people at the top have no idea. Changes from top down have to happen and quick otherwise obscurity is waiting for us with open arms.
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 12, 2019 7:54:04 GMT
Despite of any owner I really think as long as you get the backing to sign the players you want, and all the facilities around the team are OK, I can't find an excuse for not being able to perform on the pitch. I really struggle to see why all the conspiracy theories around the board really should be an excuse as long as the manager get the backing in every department. Why don't we then perform to a level as expected from a group of players certainly good enough to fight for a playoff spot? In my opinion this is down to the manager, as simple as that. If the manager who now has brought in 11 players can't find a formation, can't pick players that work together as a group, can't pick a team that get results etc. Who is to blame? To me the only answer is the manager, and if the manager isn't able to get the needed results with this group of players why do we still hang on to him? Don't you tell me we couldn't have brought managers in that would have improved our results considerably. If I was in charge NJ would be gone now, but I honestly can't see the board keep on backing him without better results either. I just hope we don't wait too long before action is taken!
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Post by rawli on Sept 12, 2019 8:09:14 GMT
The family has the club over a barrel. We aren't an attractive proposition for investors due to the debt and the price that would be asked.
There are no other Stoke supporters who are billionaires so we can't expect a buyer to come from that source.
The Coates' want to run the show their way which is fair enough given they put the money in. So I can't see them letting outsiders run it for them.
We are basically a side project for Peter and Jon who are rich beyond their wildest dreams and need something to do. They don't seem to have much day to day involvement with Bet365.
They've kidded themselves they are football people but in fact they've dropped lucky appointing Macari and Pulis in the past. All of their other appointments have either been terrible (Bates, Kamara, Ball, Jordan, Lambert) or have started well but been allowed to go on too long (Hughes, Mills).
It feels like we're going to have to wait for them to either drop lucky again or go back to what they think will work with Pulis.
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Post by heworksardtho on Sept 12, 2019 8:18:44 GMT
The family has the club over a barrel. We aren't an attractive proposition for investors due to the debt and the price that would be asked. There are no other Stoke supporters who are billionaires so we can't expect a buyer to come from that source. The Coates' want to run the show their way which is fair enough given they put the money in. So I can't see them letting outsiders run it for them. We are basically a side project for Peter and Jon who are rich beyond their wildest dreams and need something to do. They don't seem to have much day to day involvement with Bet365. They've kidded themselves they are football people but in fact they've dropped lucky appointing Macari and Pulis in the past. All of their other appointments have either been terrible (Bates, Kamara, Ball, Jordan, Lambert) or have started well but been allowed to go on too long (Hughes, Mills). It feels like we're going to have to wait for them to either drop lucky again or go back to what they think will work with Pulis. Your bang on the money , excuse the pun , if they lived two more lifetimes they couldn’t spend there wealth but will go to the grave billionaires , Jack Walker had a dream at any cost to him , sadly our owners don’t share that same dream
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Sept 12, 2019 8:29:50 GMT
Despite of any owner I really think as long as you get the backing to sign the players you want, and all the facilities around the team are OK, I can't find an excuse for not being able to perform on the pitch. I really struggle to see why all the conspiracy theories around the board really should be an excuse as long as the manager get the backing in every department. Why don't we then perform to a level as expected from a group of players certainly good enough to fight for a playoff spot? In my opinion this is down to the manager, as simple as that. If the manager who now has brought in 11 players can't find a formation, can't pick players that work together as a group, can't pick a team that get results etc. Who is to blame? To me the only answer is the manager, and if the manager isn't able to get the needed results with this group of players why do we still hang on to him? Don't you tell me we couldn't have brought managers in that would have improved our results considerably. If I was in charge NJ would be gone now, but I honestly can't see the board keep on backing him without better results either. I just hope we don't wait too long before action is taken! I’d accept it being the manager’s fault alone if we hadn’t had 4 managers in just under two years. Supporting your manager is a lot more than giving him a chest full of cash. It’s a coherent wage structure, a modern scouting and recruitment method, not tying his hands with previous transfer errors or at least doing your best to minimise them. If those issues fall under the chief exec to operate then its up to the owners to have the balls to remove that chief exec if he isn’t performing. Which by any metric I can think of, he isn’t currently doing. If they sacked Scholes now they’d go up a lot in my estimation. The money is a side issue for me.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 12, 2019 8:39:40 GMT
The family has the club over a barrel. We aren't an attractive proposition for investors due to the debt and the price that would be asked. There are no other Stoke supporters who are billionaires so we can't expect a buyer to come from that source. The Coates' want to run the show their way which is fair enough given they put the money in. So I can't see them letting outsiders run it for them. We are basically a side project for Peter and Jon who are rich beyond their wildest dreams and need something to do. They don't seem to have much day to day involvement with Bet365. They've kidded themselves they are football people but in fact they've dropped lucky appointing Macari and Pulis in the past. All of their other appointments have either been terrible (Bates, Kamara, Ball, Jordan, Lambert) or have started well but been allowed to go on too long (Hughes, Mills). It feels like we're going to have to wait for them to either drop lucky again or go back to what they think will work with Pulis. Your bang on the money , excuse the pun , if they lived two more lifetimes they couldn’t spend there wealth but will go to the grave billionaires , Jack Walker had a dream at any cost to him , sadly our owners don’t share that same dream Under FFPR Jack Warner would no be allowed to do what he did today. The spending by the club this summer is indicative of the tight financial stranglehold the club is under. The club made a mistake hiring Rowett who committed a lot of money on long term contracts, in addition to those already in place and those renewed at the time of relegation. It was a gable to get straight back into the Prem that failed unfortunately. There were not many on here saying the club had erred when Rowett was brought in. That is all history now. The club has chosen to go long term with Jones as the most promising young talent in the league, prepared to come and probably under no illusion there was a lot of money to spend, because there clearly isn't. The Coates are not "sacking owners". They stuck by Pulis and Hughes till the game was up, they gave Lambert one last throw of the dice at top level football management and it did not come off, and they have now gone for young manager who were seen to be future prospects. In Rowett's case they gave him all the money. They now ave to cut their cloth to meet FFPR or the club could be in more serious trouble. Jones is tasked to build a side with what he has got and with little spend unless we raise revenue selling players. So if people are upset now, they are going to be a lot more upset when we start selling our best players again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 9:38:52 GMT
Despite of any owner I really think as long as you get the backing to sign the players you want, and all the facilities around the team are OK, I can't find an excuse for not being able to perform on the pitch. I really struggle to see why all the conspiracy theories around the board really should be an excuse as long as the manager get the backing in every department. Why don't we then perform to a level as expected from a group of players certainly good enough to fight for a playoff spot? In my opinion this is down to the manager, as simple as that. If the manager who now has brought in 11 players can't find a formation, can't pick players that work together as a group, can't pick a team that get results etc. Who is to blame? To me the only answer is the manager, and if the manager isn't able to get the needed results with this group of players why do we still hang on to him? Don't you tell me we couldn't have brought managers in that would have improved our results considerably. If I was in charge NJ would be gone now, but I honestly can't see the board keep on backing him without better results either. I just hope we don't wait too long before action is taken! I’d accept it being the manager’s fault alone if we hadn’t had 4 managers in just under two years. Supporting your manager is a lot more than giving him a chest full of cash. It’s a coherent wage structure, a modern scouting and recruitment method, not tying his hands with previous transfer errors or at least doing your best to minimise them. If those issues fall under the chief exec to operate then its up to the owners to have the balls to remove that chief exec if he isn’t performing. Which by any metric I can think of, he isn’t currently doing. If they sacked Scholes now they’d go up a lot in my estimation. The money is a side issue for me. Spot on but the money isn't a side issue, with FFP it is making it worse given the lack of joined up thinking with our transfer "strategy". Any new manager in now is still saddled with players we signed 4 managers ago, which will hamper him with everything he tries to do.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 12, 2019 9:48:44 GMT
I’d accept it being the manager’s fault alone if we hadn’t had 4 managers in just under two years. Supporting your manager is a lot more than giving him a chest full of cash. It’s a coherent wage structure, a modern scouting and recruitment method, not tying his hands with previous transfer errors or at least doing your best to minimise them. If those issues fall under the chief exec to operate then its up to the owners to have the balls to remove that chief exec if he isn’t performing. Which by any metric I can think of, he isn’t currently doing. If they sacked Scholes now they’d go up a lot in my estimation. The money is a side issue for me. Spot on but the money isn't a side issue, with FFP it is making it worse given the lack of joined up thinking with our transfer "strategy". Any new manager in now is still saddled with players we signed 4 managers ago, which will hamper him with everything he tries to do. Not at all. The new man could you know, try to use them in a formation that actually suits them? Something none of them have done.
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Post by GoBoks on Sept 12, 2019 13:53:01 GMT
A very ungracious OP. The Coates have been the saviours of the club and without their benefaction by taking ownership of the club, we would probably have never been in the Prem. etc. So things are not going well now, but if you have followed football for over half a century you'll know that things go round. I can remember Mun U relegated, Villa in the third tier, Ipswich Town Champions and runners-up twice. Things have changed since the introduction of the Premier League with 6 very rich clubs dominating the rest and only 1 other club an ever present in the top flight, namely Everton. All the more remarkable then that Stoke reached the FA Cup final, achieved three 9th pace finishes, and stayed in the top flight for a decade. It would be the end of Stoke City if the Coates were to turn their back on the club. They are not perfect owners and seem out of touch, but who else would take on the ownership of Stoke City?Certainly no foreign investor would be the slightest bit interested; they only want to buy clubs with a (potential) large following and a history of winning things. People need to be careful what they wish for. Many great clubs have disappeared or in divisions below us. As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade. Perfect post! To continue your final sentence: As I said to a Leeds fan at Elland Road recently, they may be in the ascendancy at the moment and feel better being a Leeds fan than a Stoke fan, but it's a different matter over the last decade and will be again in the future!Also, What's the bet Leeds stuff it up again!
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Post by GoBoks on Sept 12, 2019 14:23:19 GMT
The family has the club over a barrel. We aren't an attractive proposition for investors due to the debt and the price that would be asked. There are no other Stoke supporters who are billionaires so we can't expect a buyer to come from that source. The Coates' want to run the show their way which is fair enough given they put the money in. So I can't see them letting outsiders run it for them. We are basically a side project for Peter and Jon who are rich beyond their wildest dreams and need something to do. They don't seem to have much day to day involvement with Bet365. They've kidded themselves they are football people but in fact they've dropped lucky appointing Macari and Pulis in the past. All of their other appointments have either been terrible (Bates, Kamara, Ball, Jordan, Lambert) or have started well but been allowed to go on too long (Hughes, Mills). It feels like we're going to have to wait for them to either drop lucky again or go back to what they think will work with Pulis. Your bang on the money , excuse the pun , if they lived two more lifetimes they couldn’t spend there wealth but will go to the grave billionaires , Jack Walker had a dream at any cost to him , sadly our owners don’t share that same dream The reality is that owners like Jack Walker are extremely rare! We might as well wish for someone like the Glaziers, but the chances of something like that are remote in the extreme. Right now, we have owners who have bankrolled the club significantly, want what's best for SCFC, but make mistakes and are too trusting. I believe that no one throws 200 million quid at something just to say "oh well, that didn't work". They will continue to support the club and pursue their stated goal of self-sustainability - which is an excellent thing. How many times over the past decade have we heard that Stoke are a model club as far as financial management is concerned? Was that just "lucky" or is the truth that we were "unlucky" in our Player purchases as we tried to push to the mythical "next level" and also our managerial appointments since Hughes. This combination has forced us to break from prudent financial management as we tried to regain our PL status. I think NJ signals a return to prudence and a longer term strategy that, while unpopular with today's "instant success" mentality, will see us return to stability and once again be held up as the model for success.
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 12, 2019 17:04:52 GMT
Despite of any owner I really think as long as you get the backing to sign the players you want, and all the facilities around the team are OK, I can't find an excuse for not being able to perform on the pitch. I really struggle to see why all the conspiracy theories around the board really should be an excuse as long as the manager get the backing in every department. Why don't we then perform to a level as expected from a group of players certainly good enough to fight for a playoff spot? In my opinion this is down to the manager, as simple as that. If the manager who now has brought in 11 players can't find a formation, can't pick players that work together as a group, can't pick a team that get results etc. Who is to blame? To me the only answer is the manager, and if the manager isn't able to get the needed results with this group of players why do we still hang on to him? Don't you tell me we couldn't have brought managers in that would have improved our results considerably. If I was in charge NJ would be gone now, but I honestly can't see the board keep on backing him without better results either. I just hope we don't wait too long before action is taken! I’d accept it being the manager’s fault alone if we hadn’t had 4 managers in just under two years. Supporting your manager is a lot more than giving him a chest full of cash. It’s a coherent wage structure, a modern scouting and recruitment method, not tying his hands with previous transfer errors or at least doing your best to minimise them. If those issues fall under the chief exec to operate then its up to the owners to have the balls to remove that chief exec if he isn’t performing. Which by any metric I can think of, he isn’t currently doing. If they sacked Scholes now they’d go up a lot in my estimation. The money is a side issue for me. I feel the owners/board have backed every manager with everything that is possible, but I agree they trusted Hughes way too much in his last two seasons. I still can't see this as a big issue to why NJ can't get good results with our current squad.
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Post by mcw on Sept 12, 2019 17:19:51 GMT
Agree that ultimately the manager bears responsibility to get the best out of the playing squad at his disposal. Unfortunately failure breeds failure and it is an epidemic level at the club now-4 managers in such a short space of time, a relegation and a senior playing squad which could field 2 or 3 teams and who are no doubt split up into factions based purely on when they came into the club/where they are in the pecking order. A lot of eggs for the manager to juggle that is for sure and things could get worse before they get better. A clean out is required to root out players who don't want to be here, don't fit into the playing system and those who are not good enough. Only once that is achieved and there is a solid tight knit group of players all with their heads pointing in the right direction and buying into the manager's ethos (whoever that may be) will we start to progress.
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Post by rawli on Sept 12, 2019 17:29:22 GMT
I’d accept it being the manager’s fault alone if we hadn’t had 4 managers in just under two years. Supporting your manager is a lot more than giving him a chest full of cash. It’s a coherent wage structure, a modern scouting and recruitment method, not tying his hands with previous transfer errors or at least doing your best to minimise them. If those issues fall under the chief exec to operate then its up to the owners to have the balls to remove that chief exec if he isn’t performing. Which by any metric I can think of, he isn’t currently doing. If they sacked Scholes now they’d go up a lot in my estimation. The money is a side issue for me. I feel the owners/board have backed every manager with everything that is possible, but I agree they trusted Hughes way too much in his last two seasons. I still can't see this as a big issue to why NJ can't get good results with our current squad. They didn't back Hughes (probably fortunately in hindsight). We were among the lowest spenders in the PL in the 2 seasons before the relegation season.
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 12, 2019 17:59:12 GMT
I feel the owners/board have backed every manager with everything that is possible, but I agree they trusted Hughes way too much in his last two seasons. I still can't see this as a big issue to why NJ can't get good results with our current squad. They didn't back Hughes (probably fortunately in hindsight). We were among the lowest spenders in the PL in the 2 seasons before the relegation season. A strange thing to say when you know he bought Imbula and Wimmer, our two biggest buys in history!
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Post by simple on Sept 12, 2019 18:40:28 GMT
These posts are pointless unless you can name anyone who would by a football club,supported by 15000-17000 regular supporters,who moan about a family who brought us back from the brink,we were 24 hours from administration when PC brought the club back from the Icelandic consortium. New buyers would have to pay back all the loans the Coates family have put into the club to bank roll the last 15 years.Yes they have made mistakes but they also made some good calls,if they had listened to the fans he would not of brought TP back.If we had been owned by anyone else we may not of survived like Bury.
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Post by rawli on Sept 12, 2019 18:54:16 GMT
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 13, 2019 8:57:16 GMT
Hughes spent a lot of money during his reign at Stoke. In addition we already had gathered a good group of players. The big problem was that he neglected defensive training, I believe what Wilson said, and he tried to play too sexy football which came back to bite us. After losing Arnie we only had Shaq able to do something special and at the same time he emptied the wardrobe of heads with the right mindset, like Huth, Whelan, Walters and Bardsley. During his time he bought Imbula £18M, Wimmer £18M, Shaq £13M, Allen £13M and Berahino £13M, all these playeres more expensive than Crouch who was our bigges purchase before that.
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